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Thread: The Armenians, fathers of the Etruscans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Latin is an Indo-European language and is related to R1b. There were just much more R1b people in amount than 'Anatolian' Etruscans. After the unification of the 2 groups hg. R1b are still dominating the Romans. The 'flesh' of R1b people made it possible to expand to other regions. But the founding fathers of the Roman Empire were still Etruscans. The majority of the romanempire were R1b folks, of course their language, Latin was a language of common people.

    J2 was the brain and soul, R1b was the flesh & heart (soldiers, equipment, tools) of the ROMAN Empire in the early stage.
    Mere rhetoric.

    Prove the link between the Latin language and haplogroup R1b.

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    Oh, I can't.

    R1b (maybe with J2) is connected to Indo-European CENTUM languages. Latin was an Indo-European languages evolved from a more archaic 'Italic' language. Modern descendant of the 'Italic' language group is Latin. Latin was a main source of Romance languages subgroup.

    Romance languages = Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese and Romanian. Except Romania in all those countries R1b is a dominant haplogroup.

    The second biggest haplogroup in Spain, Portugal and Italy = J2. And there’s also lots of J2 in France and Romania. In Romania there's even more J2 than in West European countries.

    I believe there's a correlation between hg. R1b, J2 and Romance languages (Centum).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There have been many migrations of celts to the italian peninsula ( golasecca Gauls, polada culture, there was a Gaulish substratum across veneto and all of northern Italy, the pre-Etruscan Villanova culture of central Italy showed many links to Halstatt and unetice cultures, all these cultures of continental European Italians, can be linked to the latins. The latins where a similar group, if not even descendants of one of these pre-Etruscan cultures that dominated Italy several thousand years before small bands of middle easterners arrived by sea. The Etruscans had their own tongue, barbaric and exotic to Europe; it clusters today very close with modern Armenian, it was nothing like Latin, although the latins may have borrowed a few words from it. But overall, the Latin tongue differed significantly from the Etruscan one. I believe solely in a link between the spread of Latin via r1b u152 people, and its adoption by other R1b people's predominantly, as the Etruscan language was not even indo-European; a language isolate borrowing more from archaic euboean greek dialects and Phoenician.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    In fact, it may be that Etruscan resembles Armenian ( even though the latter is European) and that one of the sub-families of pelasgian Greeks possibly Achaeans but I would say Ionians, where themselves also a Thracian/Armenian extension. As the Hittites spoke an indo-European language as well it is often theorized that ancient Hittites also found their origins in the Thracian race with its throne in Armenia.

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    Robert Ellis and "The Armenian origins of the Etruscans" an amazing book to read and downloadable and made free over the Internet to read! Just write the author and book into google, go to page 1, and read away : ) Robert Ellis based his hypothesis primarily upon history and linguistics, an extremely capable linguist, he was shocked upon discovering the marked similarity between modern-day Armenian and a certain language/culture that flourished in the hills of north-central Italy. Until he realized, the Thracian race was centred upon Armenia and there where several other Armenian dialects spread by Armenian colonizers: pelasgians, Phrygians, Etruscans, Lydians....sea people's possibly! The Thracian race was once spread out from Armenia to the hills of Tuscany, but these languages where conquered and went extinct, other than in the throne of these thracians, Armenia herself.

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    Etruscans! Everyone claims them. In fact they were natives of Italy, same way Romans were. Get over it!

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    They where not "natives" from Italy forever as the Paleolithic celts where, they where more recent Neolithic arrivers from the middle East to Italy, you should be embarrassed about the comment you just posted.

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    Keeping in mind that everyone was born in Africa, even Chinese at some point in distant past came from middle east. So no surprise that Etruscan too came from there. Keeping also in mind that Airplanes were not invented at that time, any suggestion that Etruscan s came from Turkey, Armenia, Middle East, Left Side East or Right side East is bolloni, ignorance, delusion. Etruscan s were a people that developed there in Italy. Basks too don.t have an indoeuropean language like the Etruscans, does it make them Turks also?

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    No because 90% of basques are R1b. The Etruscans came by boat, which by the way existed at the time. You give a weak argument. Ever heard of archaic forms of naval travel? Wooden boats?

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    Really! The boats existed? I did not know Armenia is a coastal country. How the people of Turkey in the ancient times new about existence Of Italic peninsula? They had cell phones!?How come the Etruscan s found an empty space in the peninsula that nobody opposed them? If they came from middle east they should have known to build pyramids. In how many ships did they come?Why there by the way? They were developed there as people and they show in their artifacts contacts with Greek culture as a result of trade.

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    They moved on land from Armenia to western turkey as Lydian/Phrygian colonizers where they stayed for a significant period of time, coming in contact with Mycenaean Greeks from Crete and mainland Greece who where setting up colonies on the coast of Asia Minor. They did not know of Italy; they set out on a journey with tyyrhenus and tarchon, brothers; all they knew was that as the Phoenicians had done before them, they had to travel out further than Greece for their presence would be opposed there. Upon arriving in Italy via the Tyrrhenian Sea at the height of Umbria, they changed their name from Lydians to tyrrhenians, as a sign of respect towards their leader who successfully led them to another nation, escaping hunger and a great famine in western anatolia.They would not have known how to build pyramids as they where middle-easterners and not north-Africans such as Egyptians. The Greeks, who also expanded to southern Italy later, where predominantly pelasgians themselves ( Ionians,Achaeans) but they would, at this point, coexist with the Etruscans as the Etruscans chose to ally themselves with the great peninsular latins; the greek colonies where extra "living space" to the Greeks, indispensable territory and so they changed their politics since the days of attacking/expulsing the Trojans...that's just what Etruscans where, a Trojan type race like the Troad Trojans ( dardanians) who themselves where an extension of Phrygians/thracians/Armenians and once these Trojans where synonym to Hittites and such people's, established in Anatolia, Syria, Lebanon since "forever" first men responsible for Chatal Hoyuk and such ancient first sites of Anatolian civilization.
    Last edited by adamo; 01-05-13 at 15:54.

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    Also, we can historically find Cyme in Azerbaijan, but more interestingly, in western turkey. Cyme is found in ancient Lydian territory as are two other cities Elea (ancient Lydia) and Myrinna. We can also find Myrinna on the Etruscan island of Lemnos, Cyme in southern Italy and Enna in Sicily (derived from Elea). It is from Enna that Pluto is said to have carried off Persephone. Her rape is represented upon the ancient coins of Enna (Sicily) and Elea (south Italy) and in the ancient coins of Lydia And Caria in modern day turkey. Somehow sarpedon and ancient Crete where a sort of "intermediary" between the Etruscan-middle eastern ad Lydian-Turkish ancient worlds; many ancient Minoans/Mycenaeans (Cretans) , Turks (Lydians,lycians,Carians) and the italian Etruscans where all "brother" civilizations, sharing the same genes.

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    Romulus and Remus are descendants of Aeneas the Trojan according to Vergillus.

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    "Several authors have proposed that the Indo-European language presently spoken by Armenians arose during the Bronze Age, when Indo-European speaking tribes from the Balkans and Greece invaded Anatolia and Transcaucasia, leading to the subsequent spread of their culture and language. In this study, we have detected a number of lineages that are prominent in the Balkans (I2*, I2b*, J2b1 and J2b2) at low levels throughout Ararat Valley, Gardman and Lake Van, the latter of which also contains haplogroups commonly associated with Bronze Age Greece (ie, J2a8-M319 (4.9%), and E1b1b1-M78 and its sublineages (3.9%)). While this may suggest genetic input from early Greek or Phrygian tribes, it is also possible that these low levels of Balkan lineages arrived in Armenia at a later time, such as during one of the many incursions into the area during the reign of the Macedonian, Roman and Byzantine empires."
    Neolithic patrilineal signals indicate that the Armenian plateau was repopulated by agriculturalists.
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n3/full/ejhg2011192a.html

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Goga, you're a typical Georgian mammal yet ignorant one. While you're making such a selfish claim that Armenians are not of a Y HG J2, ought to say that your lopsided thinking holds no gravity nor preponderance for such a claim. Here's something for your info:

    Armenian men's most common Y-DNA (paternal) haplogroup is R1b, found in about 28 percent of those studied. J2 is the next most common at a frequency of 22 percent. Other haplogroups found among them, in descending order of frequencies, include G (11%), J1 (11%), R1a (8%), T (6%), E (5%), I (4%), L (4%), N (2%), and others (1%).
    -----------------------
    Consequently, indo-European part you have misinterpreted drastically. FYI, DNA has nothing to do with language family. While mute people have no language they carry DNA in almost any group one way or the other. In terms of language is just an occurred blah blah bla. As much as you donkeys hate Armenians your poor assessment and evaluation about Armenians' genomes makes not one bit of a difference or change. You know it very well Georgians Azeris Turks are all there because of thanks to Armenians and Armenian civilization. There are more Armenian churches in Georgia built by Armenians than buildings built by Georgians. You slimy tunnel rat have the courage to even open your filthy mouth in reference to Armenians. Armenians created Georgians and Azeris and Turks.

    As far as ascertaining the difference between the Indo-European languages and Semitic languages, first of all how the hell would you know what is what,? Secondly you wouldn't know the difference anyway. Why don't you leave that up to the linguists to ascertain that? Nevertheless the specific languages you're referring to either Urartian or Hurrian are both related to Armenian language and are Indo-European language. However ancient times there were no languages categorized as whether Indo-European or Semitic. Those times languages were limited to cuneiform scripts and mostly were Simmerian and Akkadian cuneiform. Assyrians too implemented Simmerian cuneiform. The real decent alphabets emerged much later were limited to Phrygian, Hebrew and Armenian. The rest were cuneiform type alphabets. Even Great Armenian Mesrop Mashtots invented Georgian alphabets but Georgians don't have the decency to admit to it. It's an honor to use the alphabets but shame to admit its source? That's kind of creatures you Georgians are. Now you have the audacity to define Armenians while you really defiling yourself. Goga joba.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander Akopian View Post
    Goga, you're a typical Georgian mammal yet ignorant one. While you're making such a selfish claim that Armenians are not of a Y HG J2, ought to say that your lopsided thinking holds no gravity nor preponderance for such a claim. Here's something for your info:

    Armenian men's most common Y-DNA (paternal) haplogroup is R1b, found in about 28 percent of those studied. J2 is the next most common at a frequency of 22 percent. Other haplogroups found among them, in descending order of frequencies, include G (11%), J1 (11%), R1a (8%), T (6%), E (5%), I (4%), L (4%), N (2%), and others (1%).
    This is your first post and right away you insult me? You registered to this site only to insult me? Do I know you? Don't insult when you didn't understand me. I didn't say that there is no J2 among Armenian people. I said that J2 is NOT Armenian, period. Sure Armenians have it, but so do Georgians, Greeks, Italians, Kurds, Persians etc.

    What? Armenians created Georgians? I have no normal comment for this.

    Azeris NEVER created the Turks. Before Seljuks/Tatars arrived, Azeri were Iranic speaking people. It were the Seljuks who created the Turks. Or if I would take you seriously, I would say it were the Anatolian Armenians who created the Turks, right?

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    Donkey, for one to identify and categorize a language, it must be heard and studied first to make an assessment whether it belongs to indo-European language family or Semitic. Etruscan Language was never categorized and therefore it remained as a subject of widespread guess. Those ancient languages were only categorized because the linguists studied those languages based on the descendants languages. But those languages that were not studied were not categorized as neither indo- European nor Semitic language family. Hurro-urartian language is neither indo-European nor Semitic not because they do not fit the category but because the linguists haven't been able to study. All languages belong to either language family and there are only two language families to relate to. Indo-European and Semitic. Because a language hasn't been categorized that doesn't mean the language does not belong to either language family group. You're really are out talking out the top of your hat without understanding your own mind. By the way you keep mentioning about Latin and I fear you have no clue that Latin is derived from Greek and Greek derived from early Phrygian language and alphabets. JFYI out of all DNA studies, Etruscans share the highest DNA with Armenians at the ratio of 11% as well as their cattle shared the highest DNA values with the cattle of Armenian. One in the right mind would have to understand that language can evolve and revolve so rapidly with deviation of dialects which easily develops into completely different language and even developing into a different language family. Do not firmly rely on the language support alone. There are lots of characteristics that contributing to those differences. Of course DNA is a major support in identifying ancestral tree.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Also Y-DNA haplogroup J2 is not Armenian, but a West-Asian / (Paleo-)Caucasian marker. Hg. J2 created the greatest civilizations on earth, Caucasian Civilizations (Shulaveri-Shomu, Kura–Araxes, Trialeti, Maykop), Mesopotamian (Hassuna and Halaf) , Iranic (Aryan), Hellenic, Roman etc. Together with hg. R1b it's the most talented, gifted and inventive haplogroup. R1b is actually more adventurous of the two, while J2 is more creative one.
    Above you said "J2 is not Armenian, but a west Asian/Caucasian marker" I wonder what does this mean? Did you already make your own assessment in terms of what nations are considered Caucasusians what nations aren't? And since you think I do not understand your statement clearly, you may wish to illustrate the context. That way I'll have no doubts Mr. HG J2 and R1b. lol

    Armenian men's most common Y-DNA (paternal) haplogroup is R1b, found in about 28 percent of those studied. J2 is the next most common at a frequency of 22 percent. Other haplogroups found among them, in descending order of frequencies, include G (11%), J1 (11%), R1a (8%), T (6%), E (5%), I (4%), L (4%), N (2%), and others (1%).

    since by your own words you assigned HG R1b and J2 to talented folks, (while R1b is responsible for talent and J2 is responsible for creativity) and since Armenians possess both of these values at considerably higher rate, might you say that Armenians are the most talented creatures in the world?

    You are fascinated about this J2 thing aren't you? Well I hope you have many of those Y - chromosomes. LoL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    This is your first post and right away you insult me? You registered to this site only to insult me? Do I know you? Don't insult when you didn't understand me. I didn't say that there is no J2 among Armenian people. I said that J2 is NOT Armenian, period. Sure Armenians have it, but so do Georgians, Greeks, Italians, Kurds, Persians etc.

    What? Armenians created Georgians? I have no normal comment for this.

    Azeris NEVER created the Turks. Before Seljuks/Tatars arrived, Azeri were Iranic speaking people. It were the Seljuks who created the Turks. Or if I would take you seriously, I would say it were the Anatolian Armenians who created the Turks, right?

    Also Y-DNA haplogroup J2 is not Armenian, but a West-Asian / (Paleo-)Caucasian marker. Hg. J2 created the greatest civilizations on earth, Caucasian Civilizations (Shulaveri-Shomu, Kura–Araxes, Trialeti, Maykop), Mesopotamian (Hassuna and Halaf) , Iranic (Aryan), Hellenic, Roman etc. Together with hg. R1b it's the most talented, gifted and inventive haplogroup. R1b is actually more adventurous of the two, while J2 is more creative one.



    I'm reacting to your automated mentality. If you're negative toward Armenians because of anger, that doesn't support the reality. You're trying to be negative and constantly attack Armenians for whatever problem you have with them.

    Do do the Georgians bother me in therms of where they're standing on the map? No they do not bother me nor I will be negative towards them regardless whether I like them or not, I will stick to the reality. I do not lie to myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    Romulus and Remus are descendants of Aeneas the Trojan according to Vergillus.
    Bloody distant descendants then. Rome was supposedly founded 500 years after the fall of Troy. I don't think that many Europeans can trace back their ancestry so far even with the use of official records carefully maintained in government archives. How could people 3000 years ago have known who their ancestors were five centuries before? It's mostly just fairy tales and wishful thinking.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    People in pre-historical and even historical times wanted to associate themselves with great empires or leaders of the past. So, the Romans wanted to be associated with the Trojans, in opposition to the Greeks. The Julii clan of Caesar said they descended from Venus.

    By the Middle Ages, around 1200 AD, the Danes, French and Welsh were all claiming descent from the Trojans. So were the Scots, through descent from "Brutus of Troy". The Scots also claimed at one point to descend from Scota, a daughter of an Egyptian pharaoh. It's all just an attempt to make your people more "ancient" and more illustrious. It amazes me to read internet posts giving credence to some of these as some sort of ancestral memory. What possible "ancestral memory" could the Scots have of descent from Egyptians?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutus_of_Troy

    https://books.google.com/books?id=jr...rojans&f=false


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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Hg. E , J1 and maybe T are Semitic-style Middle Eastern/Southwest Asian haplogroups. J2 is not Semitic.

    Goga, not necessarily true, there are different subclades of each over a large time frame, some J1, E and T are associated with Semitic language and culture groups, example E-V13 is not Semitic but E-M123 is, even at that the mutations are old, it would be down streams you need to look at. As for J2, same goes for it, J2 has subclades that are associated with Semitic Cultures and others that aren't, I would include J2 in your Semitic-style Middle Eastern/Southwest Asian haplogroups, as J2 was involved with Northwest Semitic languages and people. Take a look at the people who spoke Northwest Semitic and you'll the correlation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northw...itic_languages

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    Goga, not necessarily true, there are different subclades of each over a large time frame, some J1, E and T are associated with Semitic language and culture groups, example E-V13 is not Semitic but E-M123 is, even at that the mutations are old, it would be down streams you need to look at. As for J2, same goes for it, J2 has subclades that are associated with Semitic Cultures and others that aren't, I would include J2 in your Semitic-style Middle Eastern/Southwest Asian haplogroups, as J2 was involved with Northwest Semitic languages and people. Take a look at the people who spoke Northwest Semitic and you'll the correlation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northw...itic_languages
    The 40000 hittite tablets as we know show no semitic language and with this the Northern levant as part of the hittite area for many many centuries , would at the time would have had no semitic
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syro-Hittite_states
    with the collapse of the hittite around 1100Bc , would be the first time that we can see any pre-phoenician people or even any semitic linguistic group enter the northern levant

    With Phoenicians showing mostly J2 origin as per the old paper by nat-geno , then either
    1- the phoenicians came via the north of the zargos mountains bringing no semitic language and semitic came to this levant area from others or

    2- J2 brought semitic from the south levant to form the phoenicians
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  24. #74
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The 40000 hittite tablets as we know show no semitic language and with this the Northern levant as part of the hittite area for many many centuries , would at the time would have had no semitic
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syro-Hittite_states
    with the collapse of the hittite around 1100Bc , would be the first time that we can see any pre-phoenician people or even any semitic linguistic group enter the northern levant

    With Phoenicians showing mostly J2 origin as per the old paper by nat-geno , then either
    1- the phoenicians came via the north of the zargos mountains bringing no semitic language and semitic came to this levant area from others or

    2- J2 brought semitic from the south levant to form the phoenicians
    Thanks Sile for the theories, Ugarite was considered a Northwest Semitic language as well, what I was trying to get across was that J2 was native to Northern Levant atleast some subclades, and they would have been Northwest Semitic speaking peoples or helped spread it, like Pheonicians, Aramaics, and Israelites, however we cannot be certain that the Hittites were J2, though I personally believe they had a nice chunk, but it was the Cilicians, Hurrians and Ugarites that were involved with the Northern Levant as natives, the Hitties were Indo-european the other three weren't. I think some J2 was native Semitic Speaking as some were Indo-european or adapted cultures. I don't think there is a correlation between Phoenicians and Hittites, but rather Cilicians, Hurrians, and Ugarities would have had some even if the Hitties controlled the area.

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    Country: Armenia



    Alexander

    As for Georgian alphabet. Georgians have 3 types of alphabet. The one You refer that is probably created by Mesrop Mashtots is the oldest one that is no more used. You can compare them here and see that the oldest one's graphics is similar to Armenian and Caucasian Albanian one. Thus very probable created by the same person.
    While the modern Georgian alphabet is very different.

    http://www.omniglot.com/writing/georgian.htm

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