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Thread: Old Europe (Vinca) language and culture in early layers of Serbian and Irish language

  1. #76
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    Country: Ireland





    Taranis


    It's not my duty (even though more than once, I have labeled as doing just that) to uphold orthodoxy. It's not my duty here to defend orthodoxy, as it can very well defend itself.
    Yet you seem to be there to remind me that the orthodoxy exists and should not be questioned, but can not actually speak for it and defend it? Are you a believer or knower?

    The question that I would like to ask is: do you understand the mainstream point of view? If that answer is 'no', I would like to ask you if you actually have ever genuinely bothered trying to understand it, or trying to understand the methods?


    I did look at the mainstream theories (because they are theories).

    See, what I am missing is that at no point in you are stating why exactly you believe the mainstream opinion to be wrong.

    It is because of so many things which i have found and which can not be explained by the mainstream theories, that i decided to propose my theory. Now if you think that my arguments that i am presenting to support my theory are week, please give me an alternative explanation for anything i said here which would explain it better. This is the reason why i started posting this here, to validate my theory. Now you can help me by actually putting forward arguments or counter arguments, but not by giving speeches. This is just a waste of everyone's time. Sorry.


    I would like to ask another question here indead: do you think I would react any differently if you were trying disprove Einstein's theory of relativity or the theory of evolution?
    I am not. So let's not go there. And don't try to compare history and exact measurable sciences. The level of measurability and verifiability is completely different.


    Cambrius

    From what I can see, it appears that the linkages that Dublin presents are tenuous at best. The overwhelming majority of Atlantic commercial and cultural exchange took place in the Atlantic facade. However, the "Atlanteans" also apparently had some considerable contact with what is now Italy and the Eastern Mediterranean.
    If by Atlantic facade you mean from north west africa to baltic then you are right. Atlantic facade doesn't stop in the lowlands...

    Please read the origin of the Irish race by Mallory. You will see that there were two major cultural exchange routs into British Isles: Mediterranean - Iberian and Balkan - Baltic one. Both equally important.

    Inver

    Proto gaelic in the balkans, based on what?
    You are linking all of Europe with Serbia in this thread, are you proposing Serbia as a womb of European nations?
    Actually yes. Because today's Serbia coincides with the old Lepenski vir, Starcevo and Vinca land and old Kelto Ilirian land. It is not strictly speaking Serbia but originally Lower Danube and later the area between Balkan and Baltic.

    So is it certain that the Vinca culture played a central role in the spread of the Indo European language tomost of Europe?
    I am talking about pre Indo European language layer as well as Indo European language layer. And i think that they are linked. I support one of the two mainstream theories which places the birthplace of the Indo Europeans in Central Europe. They are partially Vincans who went up north and mixed with the stepe people.


    This thead is like dna/linguistics/tribes hopscotch covering a period from about about 5,000 bc to 800 AD.
    This is because this is the period of the cultural mixing.

    abAmerican

    I don't doubt your Serbian Irish connection, but it was from a Dacian retreat (Eastern Serbia).
    You are actually very close to the truth. The area is correct (lower Carpathian mountains) but the contact time started much earlier. It continues even today. The same mountain people still live in the central European mountains. Just no one bothered to investigate them until recently.

    The Celts come from the same stock as Italics (Celto-Italic), and were probably very accompanying to other cultural and religious ideas as the later Italic/Latin Romans.
    You are right here in that you can trace Sabine (Early Roman) culture straight to lower Carpathian mountains. I am planning to write about this in detail. It is exactly that connection that led me to Vinca.

    It was this mix of Dacian,Celts, and Germanic peoples where you see your similarities. These similarities happened before the Roman conquest of Brittan, but no earlier than the Indo-European Dacian.


    There are, as i said in my very first post on this thread, many layers of connection, because this connection lasted so long. One period of intense connection is end of second and beginning of the first millennium bc, the start of iron age in the Balkans which predates the migration of the Ilyrian tribes from balkans to Italy. As i said it is the link between Rome, Ilyria, Arcadia, Thessaly, Thrakia that lead me to Gaia and then to Vinca.

    There was probably some remote religious connections from the neolithic I2 Vinca incorporated into specific Dacian tribes, that mixed with Celts and Germans who carried it to Brittan during the Belgic expansion in southern Brittan, then to Ireland in the 6th century AD.There was probably some remote religious connections from the neolithic I2 Vinca incorporated into specific Dacian tribes, that mixed with Celts and Germans who carried it to Brittan during the Belgic expansion in southern Brittan, then to Ireland in the 6th century AD.
    This would be fine except you find Irish (gaelic, Ilyrian, vincan???) roots in Minoan, archaic Greek, Ilyrian, Roman toponimes, town names, god names...The only explanation is that someone speaking (gaelic???) was in the Balkans a very long time ago...

    Example:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete (Κρήτη)

    he current name of Crete first appears in Mycenaean Greek as ke-re-si-jo "Cretan" in Linear B texts. In Ancient Greek, the name Crete (Κρήτη) first appears in Homer's Odyssey.[4] Its etymology is unknown. One speculative proposal derives it from a hypothetical Luvianword *kursatta (cf. kursawar "island", kursattar "cutting, sliver").[5] In Latin, it became Creta.
    http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb11.html#crith

    crith - shake, quiver, Irish, Early Irish crith, Welsh cryd, Old Welsh crit, *kritu-; Anglo-Saxon hriða, fever, German ritten, fever. See crath, to which crith has been suggested as cognate (root [email protected], krot,kret.
    Now i don't know which etymology is better? What do you think?


    Yetos thank you for your support. Balkan Baltic rout existed as a trading route in the second millennium bc as can be seen from this Micenian style fortress from Slovakia which dates to 1500 bc. The style of the fortress is the same like in Mycenae. The complete absence of any tools and agricultural material suggests that the fortress was a guard post on the balkan baltic trade route:

    http://www.spisskystvrtok.sk/index.p...id=5&Itemid=16
    http://www.hradiska.sk/2010/06/spiss...ke-mykeny.html

    Both texts are in Slovakian. If anyone can find anything in English please post it here.

    leBrock

    You are a Serb who lives in Ireland. It would be so nice, for you, if these two nations were more related, isn't it?
    Have a look at this. When I was I kid I remember seeing an old wooden cross standing in the middle of a field just outside my dad’s village. It was at the edge of the village land, the same like in Ireland and other Celtic lands where holly land is the land that separates tribes. It was a place where village "slava" or the ancestral celebration was celebrated every year. It was always covered in flowers and people used to bring food and drink to it and light candles in front of it. This is still a living tradition in Serbia...


    Imagine my surprise when later in life i discovered "celtic" crosses...


    http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3010/dscn3999.jpg
    http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/420...bardesktop.jpg
    http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/1...krstbl6.th.jpg
    http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5...lasotince4.jpg
    http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/2...lasotince4.jpg
    http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/7...lasotince4.jpg
    http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/5...lasotince4.jpg
    http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3...cileksovac.jpg

    So for me going to Ireland was like going to my second home in a way...

    You will not find any mention of this in any Serbian history books. No one cares. As if these people and their culture doesn't exist. The only work ever written on this is an obscure little book written by a local school teacher come historian. Any explanations?

    By the way the same culture exists in the east Baltic, the land of Pruteni (Prussians). I am about to talk about this if I ever get a chance....

    Also did you know that the first "Celtic" crosses came to Ireland from England and were based on earlier wooden crosses and that the oldest wooden "celtic" cross was found in Viking dublin?


    The same area of Serbia has a peculiar grammatical construct. They use "na" to express belonging:


    Q: "na koga je ovo kuče" (of or on whom is this hound) whose hound is this? This implies belonging or owning being equaled to having the thing in question on one person. This construct is used only for material goods and animals and not for members of the family. This construct is ancient and comes from the time when everything you owned was on you.


    A: na petra. (of or on peter)


    ovo je kuče na petra (this is the hound on or of petar)

    This construct exists in Irish and in this dialect of Serbian which is spoken in my birth place. Any explanation?

    nordicwabler

    Dublin, I appreciate the hard work you've put into your theories-- you've sourced your information and have cogent thought processes.
    Thank you.

    I think you're biting off too big off a chunk here though.
    Don't you think i know this? This is why i am posting all this here. Lets have it all out on paper, and then we can take what ever bit you want and go into as much detail as you want. This is the idea of this exercise. I can't do this all on my own.
    Last edited by dublin; 23-05-13 at 15:55.

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    You still didn’t explain why you think proto gaelic originated in the Balkans, from what I’ve read gaelic and the British p celtic langauge went their separate ways about 2,000 to 3,000 years ago making Ireland the birth of proto gaelic. It’s not as if you’re the first person to look for language similarities and this would have been recognized ages ago, this thread is confirmation bias at its finest.

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    You still didn’t explain why you think proto gaelic originated in the Balkans, from what I’ve read gaelic and the British p celtic langauge went their separate ways about 2,000 to 3,000 years ago making Ireland the birth of proto gaelic. It’s not as if you’re the first person to look for language similarities and this would have been recognized ages ago
    I spoke to some Irish linguists about exactly this. Their answer is no one bothered comparing Irish and South Slavic languages before.
    And I do put big question mark when i say Gaelic. I believe, and i have said this many times before, that Gaelic is just one component of Irish language. The component i am talking about is probably not Gaelic. Or maybe it is. I don't know. All I know is that there are many toponimes from the Balkans from the earliest times which can only be explained in Irish.

    Like Sar mountain, with no etymology in Slavic, means Highest (It is) mountain it that region.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0ar_Mountains
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

    Or all the rocky mountain tops with "Tor" in their name, like Durmitor. Tor means tall rock in Irish.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durmitor

    I have no explanation for this except that someone speaking some language which later influenced Irish lived in the Balkans when these mountains were named. Maybe you have a better explanation.

    this thread is confirmation bias at its finest.
    This is why you should present some counter arguments which would make the discussion more balanced. but not "it can't be, someone would have thought of it before" kind of arguments...

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    Opanak


    Opanak (Serbian Cyrillic: Опанак; Macedonian: Опинок; Bulgarian: цървул[a]) are traditional peasant shoes worn in Southeastern Europe (specifically Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Macedonia, Serbia). The attributes of the Opanci (name in plural) are: a construction of leather, lack of laces, durable, and various ending on toes. In Serbia, the design of the horn-like ending on toes indicates the region of origin. The concept, and the word, exists in Romania (as opincă) which is borrowed from Slavic. The Opanci are considered a national symbol of Serbia, and the traditional peasant footwear for people in the Balkan region.

    Official Etymology


    Serbo-Croatian "opanak", and Bulgarian and Macedonian "опинок", all ultimately derive from Proto-Slavic *opьnъkъ, which itself is a compound of the prepositional *o(b)- "around, on, etc." with final *b assimilated and the resulting greminated consonant cluster *pp being simplified to *p, and the vrddhi-lenghthened root vowel of the verb *pęti, originally meaning "to strain, move" (cf. modern standard Serbo-Croatian verbs conveying the same notion such as nàpēti/на̀пе̄ти, pròpēti/про̀пе̄ти, ràspēti/ра̀спе̄ти, pòpēti/по̀пе̄ти..), but subsequently coming to mean "to climb" (whence the meaning of modern standard Serbo-Croatian pȇti/пе̑ти, pènjati/пѐњати). So literally, opanak would roughly mean "climbing footwear".[1]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opanak


    Here is an excellent web site on European peasant footwear:


    http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/Costume/opinci.htm



    The oldest mention of a footwear that looks like Opanak is found in Azerbaijan. In Sanscrit, the footwear similar to opanak is called upanah (upana). Official etymology is that it comes from upa - to tie up, and nat to bend. It is still worn in certain parts of India as part of Ceremonial dress. We can find depictions of opanak in Iran, Afghanistan, Mesopotamia, Asia Minor, and in Europe from Balkans to Baltic and in Ireland.


    In the Balkans only male opanak has the "beak", the front part that curls upwards. It is a symbol of a male genitalia.


    Now interestingly enough one culture where we see opanak everywhere are Hittites.




    Hittit opanak


    Seal of Muwattalli I, depicted in the embrace of the Storm God of Heaven. His Hittite name ‘Muwattalli’ is written on the left, while his Hurrian name, ‘Šarri-Teššup’, is written on the right.


    http://www.hittites.info/Images/muwattalli_1_seal_1.gif




    Rock inscription of Muwattalli I at Fraktin


    http://www.hittites.info/Images/muwa..._1_fraktin.gif




    Yazılıkaya (Hatusha)


    http://www.atamanhotel.com/whc/hattu...ya-relief.html


    http://www.hattuscha.de/02-135_42ff-345x256.jpg
    http://www.hattuscha.de/02-135_64-250x346.jpg
    http://www.hattuscha.de/02-143_81-300x361.jpg


    Various rock carvings


    http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9...c9526a6846.jpg
    http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1126/0038ji.jpg
    http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/2...img2803zf7.jpg
    http://antique.mrugala.net/Mesopotam...20offrande.jpg
    http://www.hittitemonuments.com/bor/bor05.jpg
    http://i41.tinypic.com/21j4toi.jpg




    Ilirian Opanak


    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rianCeltic.jpg


    The Oldest Known Well-Preserved Leather Shoe from Armenia


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areni-1_shoe#cite_note-2


    Irih early medieval leather shoe


    http://www.alia.ie/tirnanog/sochis/xviii136.jpg
    http://www.alia.ie/tirnanog/sochis/xviiib.html




    Now here is the best bit:


    In Irish we again have a word opanak and the word for sole of the foot taban identical to the corresponding words in Serbian. We also have the complete etymology of these words:


    bonn - base, sole of the foot
    tob - quick, instant
    tobaine - quickness, suddenness
    tobann - sudden, hasty, quick
    obann - swift (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobelar)


    obann probably comes from o+bonn, on sole of the foot, what we put on sole of the foot, on the base and which makes us swift.


    ach - an ending for making a noun from an adjective


    oban + ack = obannach = opanak = what makes us swift


    in Serbian a word taban means sole of the foot. Tabanati means to run, to go quickly.


    Tobann = T+obann = Taban - Sole of the foot, Quick

    In Serbian there is also a word "opa!" exclamation which people say when they are jumping and which also means to jump. "opati" means to jump.


    How did these two words get to be in Serbian, other south Slavic languages and Irish? I think that it has to be second millennium BC at the time when Mushki went to Asia minor to form Hittite empire. Mushki, the manly solders with opanak which has a beak pointing up to show that they are Mushki (men)? Or maybe even earlier? Any ideas?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Papuča (plural: Papuče pronounced papuche)


    Papuča is a word which in Serbian today means slipper but is actually just another word for the same type of simple leather sole footwear of type opanak.




    Here is the official etymology:


    From Ottoman Turkish پابوج (pâbûc), from Persian پاپوش (pā-puš).

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/papu%C4%8Da




    Now what is the word for slipper in various languages:


    Albanian - heqël
    Afrikaans - pantoffel
    Arabic - something that sounds like shimsam


    Here is a discussion on various words for shoes used in Arabic languages, just to make sure the word did not come from Arabic languages:


    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1272771


    Armenian - hoghat’ap’
    Azerbaijani - otaq ayaqqabısı
    Basque - eskarpia (Sout), eskarpiña (old B) n. ‘slipper’.
    Berber - bálgha
    Belorussian - Тапачкі (tapachki)
    Bosnian - papuča
    Bulgarian - чехъл (chehl)
    Catalan - sabatilla
    Croatian - papuča
    Czech - pantofel
    Danish - tøffel
    Dutch - pantoffel
    English - slipper
    Estonian - suss
    Finnish - tohveli
    French - pantoufle, babouche (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babouche)
    Galician - chinelos
    German - Pantoffel
    Greek - pantófla
    Gujarati - Campala
    Hindi - Slipara
    Hungarian - papucs
    Italian - pantofola
    Latin - CREPIDA
    Latvian - tupele or Čības
    Lithuanian - šlepetė or šliurė
    Macedonian - пантофли (pantofli)
    Maltese - krepiduli, papoċċ
    Norwegian - tøffel
    Persian - pāpoosh (پاپوش), from pa "foot" + poosh "covering."
    Polish - pantofel
    Portugese - chinelo
    Romaian - papuc
    Russian - тапочка (tapuchka)
    Serbian - папуча (papucha)
    Slovak - pantofel
    Spanish - zapatilla, pantufla, babucha (clearly showing influence from many languages)
    Swedish - toffel
    Turkish - terlik
    Ukrainian - Гапочка (gapochka)
    Yiddish - Ştʻqşwk




    Here is a discussion on Iberian words for slipper and shoe:


    Iberian Peninsula and recorded also north of the Pyrenees: Hispano-Arabic pargha ~ bargha ‘sandals’, sg. parghat (mod. Arabic and Berber bálgha ‘slipper, shoe’), Mozarabic probable *parca, Portuguese alparca ‘sandal’, an apparent Old Cast. alparga ‘sandal’, Arag. and SE Spain albarca id., Valencia abarca {avarca}, Bearn. abarque id. Cast. alpargata id. derives from the same ult. source via Arabic...

    http://www.blogseitb.us/basque_boise...-of-Basque.pdf


    From the above we can see that the word "Papuča" or a similar word is used for a footwear in Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Persian, Ottoman Turkish, French, Spanish but not in Arabic languages, Latin, Greek nor in eastern Slavic and Germanic languages.


    Why am i boring you with this?


    Because of this:


    Pampooties are raw-hide shoes, which were formerly made and worn on the Aran Islands of County Galway, Ireland. They are formed of a single piece of untanned hide folded around the foot and stitched with twine or a leather strap.[1]
    Hide from the buttocks was most often used. The hair was usually left and this improved the shoe's grip.[2] The raw hide is kept flexible by use and the constant damp conditions of Western Ireland. However the shoes are not made to last. They are prone to rot and were usually kept for as little as a month or less.[3]
    Pampooties are similar to the Scottish cuaran shoes, and are the precursors to ghillies, Celtic dance shoes. They are also similar in appearance to American moccasins.[2] Ancient shoes found preserved from Stone Age Europe have a similar design.[4]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pampootie


    These early shoes (slippers) were being worn in Ireland as early as the late iron age and early medieval period. This is confirmed by the examples found in Irish bogs and which can be seen in the Irish national museum. They were still made and worn in 1950 in exactly the same way in Aran Islands, the most remote and westernmost Island off the coast of Ireland. They were probably worn in Ireland even earlier as they represent the the most rudimentary type of leather footwear and are almost identical to the Armenian prehistoric shoe. Here is an instruction how to make the Pampooties and how to wear them:


    http://www.rosieandglenn.co.uk/TheLi...EarlyShoes.htm


    Here is an article about 18th century Scottish highland shoes. In the article you can among other find this:


    Just like the Native American, the Highlander lived in a society where hunting and limited migration formed a large part of daily life. The practicality of the bag-shoe, like the Native American moccasin, was hard to improve upon.

    http://www.appins.org/pampooties.htm


    What this is saying is that up until 20th century peasants did not have fashion. What worked was made and was used and was worn unchanged for thousands of years. These shoes are a perfect example. Because there is no change in the object, there is certainly no change in the name of the object. So we can assume that the name for these Irish and Scottish shoes was pampootie (paputie, papuche) at least as far back as the early medieval time.


    Ron Pinhasi, the man who found the Armenian prehistoric shoe and a lecturer in archaeology at the University College Cork in Cork, Ireland said:


    Interestingly, the Armenian shoe is very similar to the “pampooties” worn in the Aran Islands on Ireland’s west coast up to the 1950s. “In fact, enormous similarities exist between the manufacturing technique and style of the [Armenian] shoe and those found across Europe at later periods, suggesting that this type of shoe was worn for thousands of years across a large and environmentally diverse region.”



    http://today.ucla.edu/portal/ut/PRN-...oe-160052.aspx




    In England we find this old word:


    Babouche - Etymology: from French babouche and Arabic بابوش, from Persian pāpoosh (پاپوش), from pa "foot" + poosh "covering." a chiefly oriental slipper made without heel or quarters.[2][3]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...Persian_origin




    Now can anyone here explain to me how is it possible that if the origin of the word pampootie (paputie, papuche, Papuče) is indeed Persian, we find pampootie in Iron Age Ireland?


    Unless the origin of the word is not Persian but it actually comes from the prehistoric Balkans again.


    What if word pampootie (paputie, papuche, Papuče) originated in the Balkans and was brought to Ireland at some stage of the Vinca or some later bronze or iron age migration? And what if word was brought to Persia and north Africa from the Balkans during Ottoman time when Ottoman Turkish was hugely influenced by the South Slavic languages?


    The Slavic influence


    One of the unexpected results of the Ottoman expansion was an active penetration of Slavic ethnics into the Ottoman armed forces (Janissaries) and even into the ruling elite. Serbians were particularly numerous and the Serbian language could be heard in the Ottoman court; it was used in official documents alongside with Turkish. The Italian historian Paolo Giovio who compiled a book on Turkish history, wrote: “At the court [of Suleyman The Magnificent] several languages are spoken. Turkish is the language of the ruler; Arabic is the language of the Muslim Law, Koran; Slavic (sclavonica) is mostly used by the Janissaries, and Greek is the language of the populace of the capital and other cities of Greece.”
    The Polish traveller Strijkowskij wrote that in 1574, when he was in Istanbul, he heard with his own ears kobzari (bards) singing songs in Serbian in the streets and in the taverns about victories of valiant Muslims over the Christians.
    Bassano, an Italian visitor to Suleyman’s court, claimed that “he [the sultan] respected and highly valued his wife [Roxolana] and understood her native language to some extent.” One of the sultan’s viziers was Rustem-pasha, a Serb or a Croat.
    Ukraine, except for some areas and not for long, was never conquered by the Ottomans but it became a steady source of supplies of white slaves to the empire. The Crimean Tartars were the main suppliers. Mykhailo Lytvyn, a Ukrainian diplomat in the service of the Lithuanian government, wrote in his memoirs dating to 1548–1551 that the krymchaky (Crimean Tartars) engaged only in two trades — cattle-breeding and capturing Ukrainians to be sold to the Ottomans as slaves. “The ships that often come to their ports from across the sea, bring weapons, clothes and horses which are exchanged for slaves who are loaded into these ships. And all the Ottoman bazaars are full of these slaves who are sold and bought to be used in the households, to be resold, to be given as presents… There was one Jew, amazed at the great numbers of these slaves to be seen at the slave markets, who asked whether there were any people left in the land where these slaves are brought from.”

    http://www.wumag.kiev.ua/index2.php?param=pgs20044/74


    If the footwear and its name pampootie (paputie, papuche, Papuče) originate in the Balkans, that would explain the distribution of this word and the type of footwear much better i think. But is there anything else that could prove that pampootie and Papuče are one and the same and that they come from some old proto Irish-Serbian language? There is:




    Pampooties are similar to the Scottish cuaran shoes, and are the precursors to ghillies, Celtic dance shoes

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pampootie


    Ghillies are specially designed shoes used for several types of dance. They are soft shoes, similar to ballet shoes. They are used by women in Irish dance, by men in Scottish country dance, and by men and women in Highland dance.
    Ghillies are also sometimes known by a variety of other names that include: light shoes, pomps, pumps, and soft shoes.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghillies


    The following is a brief outline of regional Scottish footwear forms in the first half of the 18th century. The terms "pampootie" (Hebridean and Outer Isles), "cuaran" (Highland Gaelic or Erse), and "ghillie" (or "gillie," a misnomer derived from the Gaelic for servant or attendant) all denote one specific form of footwear ‹ the primitive bag-shoe or European moccasin fashioned from hairy rawhide ‹ generally known as "rivelin." Examples of this form of footwear go back to the early Bronze Age in Northern Europe...

    http://www.appins.org/pampooties.htm




    This is the important bit: "ghillie" (or "gillie," a misnomer derived from the Gaelic for servant or attendant)...


    In Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian (Dinaric languages) there is a word "gilje" which is a word for shoes. "giljati" is a word for walking. In Gaelic we have gillie a servant, someone who you send to walk for you and do errands and "ghillie" for poor people's papuche or opanke shoes.


    This again shows the connection between Irish and Serbian culture and language which does not exist in other European languages and which i believe points to their coexistence in a very distant past, probably in the Balkans during Vinca time or even earlier.

    Interestingly the Armenia (Georgia), Ireland and England and the Balkans are again the same area where we find mushki and bregians...




    If anyone has a better explanation for this i would like to hear it...
    Last edited by dublin; 24-05-13 at 17:46.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Serbian - Papuča (pronounced papuche)
    English - slipper
    Albanian - papuce (pronounced papuche)
    Norwegian - papoċċ
    French - babouche
    Spanish - babucha
    Russian - тапочка (tapuchka)

    It looks like it's an old Indo-European word. It has no particular connection with serbian.

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    Kamani

    It looks like it's an old Indo-European word. It has no particular connection with serbian.
    Look again at all the languages where the word Papucha is used. They are south Slavic and surrounding languages where the word came from south Slavic. In Spanish and french the word came in from north African and is not the main word used in both french and spanish as they say themselves. in Russian it probably came along the atlantic - baltic- volga route.

    I made a mistake about Norwegian. Norwegian word is actually tøffel. papoċċ is used in Malta probably from north Africa. As Malta is just next to Norway on the list i made cut and paste error...Sorry

    If you are looking at Indoeuropean word look at Latin and Greek and all the pantófla words you find everywhere...by the way in Serbian we also have word patofna for slipper...

    So Indoeuropean possible but not very likely when you add the words "gilje" and "opanak" in the mixture...

    Thanks for your post anyway...

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    Maybe pampootie (paputie, papuche, Papuche) all come from papuk or papak or have the same root with the word papak. Papak is Serbian word for cloven hoof found in sheep, pigs, goats, cows and deer.


    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/papak


    A cloven hoof is a hoof split into two toes. This is found on members of the mammalian order Artiodactyla. Examples of mammals that possess this type of hoof are deer and sheep.[1]
    The two digits of cloven hoofed animals are homologous to the third and fourth fingers of the hand. They are called claws and are named for their relative location on the foot: the outer, or lateral, claw and the inner, or medial claw. The space between the two claws is called the interdigital cleft; the area of skin is called the interdigital skin. The hard outer covering of the hoof is called the hoof wall, or horn. It is a hard surface, similar to the human fingernail.[2]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloven_hoof


    The hard outer covering can be pilled off with a knife and it resembles a shoe a covering for the soft bottom of the foot or hoof.


    In folklore and popular culture, a cloven hoof has long been associated with the Devil.
    This is quite interesting as it gives us a link into Irish:


    péac - peak, point
    áibhirseoir - adversary, devil


    péac ón áibhirseoir - expression meaning limb of satan, and because satan has sheep or goats limbs, the limb of satan is cloven hoof of a sheep or a goat. so péac is cloven hoof as well.


    ba - root word for many words associated with sheep, and an onomatopoeic word for sheep as well so it probably is the old word for sheep.


    babag - tassle, bunch or hair, wool
    bachlag - a shoot, a curl, Irish bachlóg. This word is intersting.
    bachal - shepards staff
    bàbhun - enclosure for cattle (sheep), ring fort. In medieval Serbian and Bosnian documents there is repeated mention of Babuni as being the simple folk, sheppards, mountain people, non christians and babun language which was banned.
    bàdhan - a churchyard (Sutherland), i.e. "enclosure", same as bàbhun.
    bán - white (like wool. olann (irish) = woolen (english) = vunen (serbian))
    banair - sheep fold
    Cabhan = grassy hill
    Gabhan - cattle pond. In serbian shepard is čoban, but shepard's hooded rain gown is kabanica (gabanica). Was the original word for shepard in Serbian Gaban?


    bá - stupid (in Serbia we say stupid like a sheep)


    so


    ba + péac = bapéac = papak = cloven hoof...

    bapéaca - bapuca - pampoota -papuča - what is pulled over a hoof or a foot to protected it???

    Interesting anyway.

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    the Greek word is neither pantofla neither papucce,

    the word is σανδαλιον υποδημα υποποδιον πασουμιον etc

    pantofla papucce exist in modern Greek but are loan

    yet papucce can be explain in Greek as component υπο+πους
    the word is πους pus means foot is IE
    but
    nomit pus
    posses podos
    aff poda
    so as component we use podos instead of pus (ποδος πους)
    so in greek the component form for shoe goes υποποδιον
    and if covers all foot is epapodion
    but as pus (foot pied) in another IE language can be used as pus instead of podos.
    so papucce means around and top of foot επα+πους -ε = πα+πους = papucce.
    simmilar is pandofla pandoffel, compare pied in Francais etc

    but as papucce pendoffel etc I think is different not PIE but from a later daughter language, but based upon IE word for foot πους pied etc
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Hi Yetos

    Thanks for this. It is good to get an opinion of a native speaker. The Balkan language i am talking about predates the arrival of Greeks to the Balkan. So I am not surprised to find these words in Greek.

    I have this correspondence with someone regarding my last post on another thread. I believe it is worth posting it here as well.


    hi Garry


    Thanks for your help and suggestions.


    I think you are indulging in a little etymological shoe-horning in order to forge a connection between Irish and Serbian words that may not exist.



    I like how shoehorning sounds in this context :)


    Just few clarifications:


    péac ón áibhirseoir = 'limb of Satan'




    This is not my interpretation. I found it in Focloir Gaeilge-Bearla/Irish-English Dictionary as one of the phrases where the word péac is used. Now from this i deduced, and maybe i am wrong, that péac can also mean a sheep or goat or cow limlb (cloven hoof). I hope this makes things a little clearer about this etymology. By the way i recommend the dictionary it is excellent.


    This seems to be based upon MacBain again. His etymological dictionary refers to Scottish Gaelic, not Irish.

    I try to consult as many sources relating to both Irish and Scottish Gaelic. I do that because some old (Celtic Serbian Irish) words were preserved better in Scotland than in Ireland. In Ireland they were sometimes gaelicised almost beyond recognition.




    The Irish for sheep is caora or caorach. It has nothing to do with 'ba'.

    Agreed, never claimed that the Irish word for sheep is ba. I said that it might have been. In modern Serbian the word for sheep is ovca, but in old Serbian we find brav or b(a)rav. The reason why i suggested the existence of word "ba" is because from what i have found so far all the major domestic and wild animals in Serbian have onomatopoeic names. So sheep would be "baaaa" or "baeee" or "beee". Why do i think that people originally used characteristic sounds of animals as their names? Because we are talking the beginning of the language. There were no words, yet people wanted to communicate and pass a message. In case of sheep, the message was simple: Look there is a sheep! Except that they did not have a word for sheep and even if someone decided to call a sheep a sheep, he had no way of explaining to the others what sheep is, because there was no language yet. But everyone have seen a sheep, and have heard a sheep. So if you imitate the sound of a sheep, everyone knows what you are talking about. So "baaa" or "ba" conveys the message: "look there is a sheep" perfectly and simply. Later on people invented other words for sheep, but that was much later when they had a language as means to associate these "sheep" words with "sheep" meaning.


    In Irish and in Serbian we have similar onomatopoeic name for cow "bo". This comes from the actual sound of cows which is something between "mpbvooo", "mpbvoouu" "mpbvuuu". Here is a recording:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_EsxukdNXM


    You can see that i have put "mpbv" at the beginning. "mpbv" it the undifferentiated sound created by opening your lips and blowing air out. You start with m then go to p then to b and at the very end you get v. This is exactly what you hear when you are listening to cows, and probably what people imitated when they wanted to tell each other that there is a cow somewhere around. Another reason why i put "mpbv" at the beginning of the word is because it is quite difficult to differentiate these sounds without proper training. This is why babies are "babbling", which means they are making "mpbv" sound until they acquire a sufficient control of their speech apparatus. Today this is relatively easy as we get a lot of this skill prepackaged in our genes through epigenetic inheritances, although not everyone gets the same genes and this is why we have languages that sound different. But at the beginning of the language development, people were still trying to learn how to control their mouths to make differentiated sounds and this is why i believe they used "mpbv" sound in "mpbvaaa" or "mpbvoo". This is also the reason why we have words like this:


    bó (Irish) - cow
    vo (Serbian) - cow, or castrated bull, or bull used for agricultural activities and not for mating (cattle).


    but we also have all these other bo (vo) related words in Serbian which don't exist in Irish:


    bo - stab
    bosti - to stab
    ubo - stabbed
    bodež - knife


    But also this:






    A boyar, or bolyar (Bulgarian: боляр or болярин; Ukrainian: буй or боярин; Russian: боя́рин, tr. boyarin; IPA: [bɐˈjarʲɪn]; Romanian: boier [boˈjer] (help·info); Greek: βογιάρος), was a member of the highest rank of the feudal Bulgarian, Moscovian, Kievan Rus'ian, Wallachian, and Moldavian aristocracies, second only to the ruling princes (in Bulgaria, tsars), from the 10th century to the 17th century. The rank has lived on as a surname in Russia, Romania, and Finland, where it is spelt Pajari.[1]

    Etymology


    The word is likely derived from the plural form of the Bulgarian title boila ("noble"), bolyare, which is attested in Bulgar inscriptions[2][3] and rendered as boilades or boliades in the Greek of Byzantine documents.[4][5] Its ultimate derivation is probably from the Turkic roots bai ("noble, rich"; cf. "bey") and är ("man, men").[4] Another possible etymology of the term it may come from the Romanian word "boi" (bulls); a rich man is an owner of bulls or "boier".[6] The title entered Old Russian as быля (bylya)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyar


    Let me suggest alternative etymology which corresponds with already proposed romanian one. Tho word Boyar comes from bó + àire = cow (cattle) + lord. We actially find bó àire in Irish texts describing the Iron age proliferation of ring forts, where each ring fort was owned by a bóàire or a cattle lord. This title was imposed on the Eastern Slavs during the process of merging of the Central European Celts (Western Slavs) and the Rus (Eastern Slavs). Remember how Dumha means tumulus in Irish, but also a place of councils, parliament in Russian. In old Ireland tumuluses were used as places of tribal councils and parliaments where kings were elected for instance. In Brega one of the tumuluses was actually converted into a royal fort. This merging of Celts and Russ basically meant that Celtic (Serbian, west Slavic) military elite became ruling caste of the Russ. This process was described in "The book of Veles" a much disputed ancient Slavic manuscript, but which i believe to be based on actual histories because i found in it things that could not have been invented in 19th or 20th century as the knowledge necessary to forge these things did not exist at the time. From that period of merging we have these words as well:


    Mol, Moladh (Irish). Meanings


    commend(vt)
    commend(vt)
    hub(n m1)(of wheel)
    nominate(vt)(propose)
    propose(vt)
    praise(vt)
    recommend(vt)
    suggest(vt)


    Mol, Molba (Serbian). Meanings


    Praise
    Beg
    Plead
    Suggest


    Mol-im te bože - I beg you, I praise you god
    Mol-ba Pleading
    Mol-io bih - If i could suggest


    Moladjec (Molad je (e) - c) - recommended is - a commendation given to a someone




    Badhan/badhún is derived from Medieval Irish for cattle (= ba) + fort (= dún). Your grassy hill (= cabhan) is based on the root word cab/cabha (= mouth/hollow/bend) which itself is related to Latin caberna (= hollow/cave/vault).



    As for grassy hill (cabhan) i would suggest another etymology:




    bán - white (like wool, or milk). Here i think you can see the old word bá + n as meaning that color which looks like things we get from the thing that says "bá". The word bán could have even been used to denote sheep as wee see here:


    àire - attention, care, care, minister, lord


    banair - sheep fold. Probably comes from banaire - place for caring, owning, keeping sheep.


    Now these two words:


    Cabhan = grassy hill
    Gabhan - cattle pond. In serbian shepard is čoban, but shepard's hooded rain gown is kabanica (gabanica). Was the original word for shepard in Serbian Gaban?


    I believe that they come from the same root: ga + ban = stick, spear, stake + sheep. This perfectly describes sheparding: you go to a grassy hill with your sheep and your stick or spear (ga) where you mind the sheep while they graze. Then you bring them to gaban or sheep, cattle pond where you milk them and protect them during the night. The person who carries a stick (ga) and is minding sheep (ba(n)) is gaban (shepard) and he wears gabanicu (hooded rain gown). Speaking of Badhan/badhún being derived from Medieval Irish for cattle (= ba) + fort (= dún), in Serbian we have another interesting word: katun (gadun). This word means shepards settlement in the mountains during summer grazing period. This comes from Ga (stake) and dun (which actually does not mean fort but enclosure). so Gadun is an enclosure made of stakes, ring fort.


    We also have this word


    Baodhan, baoghan - a calf.


    http://archive.org/stream/gaelicname...buoft_djvu.txt


    I actually believe that this word used to mean lamb as well or any cattle (cows, sheep) descendant. This comes from:


    ba, bo (sheep, cow)


    +


    ogha - grandchild, Irish ó, ua, g. ui, a grandson, descendant,


    http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb28.html#MB.O


    so ba(o)oghan - a child of a sheep or cow




    We also have this cluster of words:


    Irish


    bleagh - milk
    bleachdair - milk man
    bleoghainn - milking
    agh - field, meadow
    le - with, by
    leagh (Scottish Gaelic) - melt, thaw, dissolve (in liquid) (make liquid)
    leacht (Irish) - liquid
    àire - attention, care, care, minister, lord


    bleagh = ba + leacht (leagh) = ba + leak = baleak = (pronounced) blek (milk) - literally a liquid you can squeeze from this thing on the meadow which says ba.
    bleachdair = ba + leacht (leagh) + àire = (pronounced) blek(d)ar - literally someone who cares for getting liquid squeezed from this thing on the meadow which says ba.







    http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb04.html#blàthach
    and
    Focloir Gaeilge-Bearla/Irish-English Dictionary




    Serbian


    bleko = "mpbv"aleko = mleko (milk)
    blekar = "mpbv"lekar - mlekar (milk man)
    blekan = "mpbv"lekan - mlekan (made of milk, to milk)


    Interestingly in Serbian we call sounding of sheep "ble". This probably comes from ba + le = sound produced by sheep...


    Here we have another interesting word probably related to cattle (sheep, cows) but also women, which were in the olden days considered to be a property in the same way as cattle.


    Ban, Bana - woman, girl, female. I think it is interesting how similar this is to Ba, Bo, Ban for sheep and cow. By the way in Bosnia there is a word "bona" which means woman.


    Now in the olden days (I like this expression, i got it from Peppa pig which i watch with my son), bands of warriors used to go into cattle and women raids. The aim was to steal as much cattle or women from the enemy tribe. In Irish a group of men is called dáil. From this word we have gardáil from ga(r) (spear) + dáil (group of men) = men with spears.


    So from ba(n) cattle, women and dáil (group of men) we have bandáil which is in modern Irish used to mean assembly of women (what ever that means) but originally probably had the meaning of "gang of men going to steal cattle and women". This is probably where word Vandal (bandail) comes from. Vandali, Bandali were probably just gangs of men from Central Europe on gian cattle and women raid. In Serbian and other languages we still have the word "banda" which means exactly that (a gang):


    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/banda


    This is just one of the words that entered Latin from this central European "Celtic" (Serbian, western Slavic) language.


    While we are talking about cattle here are few more words which are the same in Serbian and Irish and is related to cattle:

    tuar (Irish) - dung, manure, cattle field, sheep run
    tor (Serbian) - sheep run


    gùn (Irish) - gown, Irish gúna; from the English gown, from Welsh gwn (*gwun), from Celtic *vo-ouno-


    gunj (Serbian) - gown made from wool (vuna is wool in Serbian)


    http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb22.html




    I think you are indulging in a little etymological shoe-horning in order to forge a connection between Irish and Serbian words that may not exist. I would be more amenable to your argument if you showed a better knowledge of the roots of Irish words.

    How's this?
    Last edited by dublin; 27-05-13 at 17:09.

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    When i was in Serbia last month i got few dictionaries that cover specific dialects of Serbian language. One of them covers Dinaric Montenegrian dialect, from the same area where they use word Katun (Gadun) for the Shepard's mountain settlement. In the dictionary they had a whole section dedicated to sheep names, given to them based on their appearance and behavior. I know i am mad. In there i found this:


    Bleka - completely white sheep
    Blekan - completely white ram


    Compare this with


    bleagh - milk (white)
    bleachdair - milk man
    bleoghainn - milking


    Also as an example of the interchangeability of the "mpbv" sound group i will expand the "bo" word group in Serbian:


    bó (Irish) - cow
    vo (Serbian) - cow, or castrated bull, or bull used for agricultural activities and not for mating.
    bo - stab (like with horns from bo, vo. This is probably how people got an idea for creating stabbing and impaling weapons in the first place)
    bosti - to stab
    ubo - stabbed
    bodež - knife
    boj, voj - battle with sharp objects which you can use to stab, like spears, o knives
    bojnik, vojnik, bojovnik - solder, a man that has a sharp objects which you can use to stab, like spears, o knives
    bojna, vojna - war, a fight with sharp objects which you can use to stab, like spears, o knives
    vojevati - to fight in war
    boii - not a tribe but the solders, men with spears?
    bojati se - to be afraid


    You can see here that b and v are practically interchangeable. This apples to Serbi and Servi in the same way. In the Irish language we don't even have v sound. We have p, b, mh and bh. This is a good illustration of the undifferentiated "mpbv" block being partially differentiated.


    Now how old are these words? How old is this language?

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    To support my theory that the first names of animals with distinct sounds were onomatopoeic, i have here collected the names and sounds of all major European wild and domestic animals. The names are in Serbian and then in English. I would like to ask people here to help me and supply the matching names of animals in other European languages.


    I think that it is amazing that every one of the animal names in Serbian is onomatopoeic and very few in English are. As i explained earlier onomatopoeic names were used during the creation of the language, before there was sufficient grammar and word pool to explain the association between the name and the animal. This shows how old the Serbian animal names are. This also says a lot about the age of the Serbian language as a whole.

    Most interesting is that the common word for Eagle (Orao) is derived from the sound of the Griffon vulture which only lives in southern Europe. This puts the birth place of Serbian language in the Dinaric Alps.

    Wild animals


    lav (lion) lions used to live in Europe in distant past.


    the sound is laaaow
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_22gJ5kB31k
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGnEgAVAVIk


    vuk, volk, voulk, olk, oulk


    the sound is wouuuuulk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9xhOQ26QYI


    (wolf)


    the sound is wof,wolf
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvHHi3GI1XU


    ris (lynx)


    the sound is rissss
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbhkXg9iFYA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8eBrv_JKuk


    urs, medved (bear). Medved is the euphemistic name for bear in Slavic languages. It is used instead of the real name for bear, as invoking the real name was considered dangerous. The real name is urs.


    the sound is urs
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGG616qvxBI
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz05MkWdr9k


    svinja, guda, vepar (pig, boar)


    vepar (wild boar)


    the sound is veeee
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jniH3HfDo7Q


    svinja


    the sound is sviiiii
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og5rKt9VYX0


    guda (grunting, groktanje)


    the sound is goud
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P5FxuwGlzo




    elk, elen, jelen (deer stag)


    the sound is eeelk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97ORGksHhKw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOEj4xVKN38


    how people imitate elks


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN9Rr8uM5Q4


    kuna (marten)


    sounds like koun, kuun
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pACaNzQXn4o
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW2b-npfHuQ
    http://sounds.bl.uk/Environment/Brit...01419-0300V0#_


    lasica (weasel)


    sounds like lasiiica
    http://sounds.bl.uk/Environment/Brit...0001377-1400V0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On_lQ5k8eO8


    Lija, Lisica (fox)


    sounds like liaaaa
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6NuhlibHsM


    jazavac pronounced iazavac (badger)


    sounds like iazavava
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwrG_HdH2oY


    jež (hedgehog)


    sounds like jeezhjezh
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6w1tIGzOPvo
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7VtFnJe-K0


    zmija, smija (snake) the ssssss sound comes from the slithereing sound a snake makes in the undergrowth and from the hissing sound an angry snake makes to scare the enemy off


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imR80hOKAJo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQY0b_G_CrI


    žaba pronounced zhaba (frog)


    sounds like zhabababab
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gn3wFrLxqw


    foka - seal


    sounds like (f)oook
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-LIqdjqHts


    vidra (otter)


    sounds like viiii
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUJDmAXsEvs
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07zZxaKuKT0


    dabar (beaver) the name comes from the sound of wood chewing or maybe from the angry sound


    chewing sounds like dabdabdab
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfTubrLqXCE
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV8ptd_XU7U


    angry beaver sounds like daaaab
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXpSdyFgwvc


    veverica (Red squirrel)


    sounds like veverver
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azw7BueVQ0c
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8hNASBFDJY




    domestic animals




    bo,vo (cow)


    the sound is mpbvooou
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_EsxukdNXM


    ba, barav (sheep)


    the sound is baaa
    http://www.sheep.com/sounds/baasheep1.wav


    koza (goat)


    the sound is gooo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giR1o8o5KMw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU2n8HhOFi0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp0Bt2cbcc8


    konj, konjic, (which makes njiii sound, horse)




    the sound is niiiii
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq6l5767Iek


    mazga (mule)


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD90xkKUHYE


    magarac


    the sound is magaaaa


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWS4Eu8E2z4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wDFGU20P9k




    kokoska (chicken)


    the sound is koko
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI7ni7zL8qU


    kokot, oroz, pevac (cockerel)


    the sound is kokoreku or ooroso
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFhUzAwDEz4




    patka (duck)


    the sound is pa(k)pa(k) or k(mpbv)a(k)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlbbCPQqV2k
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=487jIOnY-yE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCY8jp2tZ1c


    guska, gaska (guse)


    the sound is guu, gua
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_28ZtSu1iZM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUtFHPnW5MM


    ku(ce), ker, pas (dog)


    the sound is ouuuu, kouuuu, ku
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF1lwZ24RYI




    the sound is kerrrrr
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y-ewncOomk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuHtyDbyEaA


    macka (cat)


    the sound is maaaaou
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o52U05Ai5tE




    wild birds




    orao (eagle)


    Griffon vulture, Gyps fulvus, Eurasian griffon. Grifon was one of the symbols of the Serbs


    sound is closest to orr, aorr, oarr
    http://www.hark.com/clips/tzxdcchmvd...d-gyps-fulvus-
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktZ11CGKloA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBErXCxqUEA


    golden eagle


    the sound is very close to igal or ior
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le6aZtJ7WPA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMT5ZL-0yeA


    soko (Peregrine Falcon)


    sounds like sokosokosoko
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P18xYHPGtRo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNO6acbF7n0




    gavran, gabran (raven)


    sounds like gaaa
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZBfahJmqAQ



    Čavka (Jackdaw)


    sounds like chaa
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kihVoeSIE7U


    vrana (Crow)


    sounds like vraa
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP3pzQnWyb0


    kukavica (cucoo)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzKdAr1pLAY




    Ćuk pronounced tjuk (Scops Owl)


    sounds like tjuk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km3D2jq1HoQ


    gugutka (Eurasian Collared Dove)


    sounds like gugugu
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xACNJcURd5I


    golub (wood pidgeon)


    sounds like gogolub
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n84sZIN4lv8




    galeb (gull)


    sounds like gaaal
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qRJoMj92hw




    jejina (long eared owl)




    sounds like yeye
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWpnonRXLfM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM7WPdpiwPc


    buljina (Eurasian Eagle-owls)


    sounds like bu-uu
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gnzzMjbOpw


    svraka (magpie)


    sounds like svrakakaka
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxtORth2BIY




    tetreb (capercaillie)


    sounds like tetr
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exKHNaZuT64
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jipvjcP3oxE


    štiglic, (Eurasian Siskin)


    sounds like shtiii
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeQjBuBaIm8




    Češljugar (goldfinch)


    sounds like cheshcheshljuu
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfjgjA_p3vQ


    vrabac, dzivdzan (sparow)


    sounds like dzivdziv
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PYZeVT_M5E
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HHlFKalN0Q


    senica (great tit)


    sounds like senitc sesenitc
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yGy5ZQdq28




    roda (stork)


    sounds like rodarodarodada
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHWri3VHIVI
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YPM3rNfZNI


    prepelica (quail)


    sounds like prepreprep
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w_GmaKN2Ik


    jarebica pronounced iarebitsa (partridge)


    sounds like iariariarebieareb
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fe4l0G5KYY


    liska (coot)


    sounds like liiis liiis
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxZFztVX5DQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8_yEtUbTrY
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oEy_vPez7o
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqPAref2aJk


    čaplja pronounced chaplja (Grey Heron)


    sounds like chap chap
    http://sounds.bl.uk/Environment/Brit...0001431-1200V0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ay3By1RHUM

    lastavica (swallow)


    sounds like vicviclalalalaaastavicvicvic
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgcipZq5oMQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPri_hTK-rM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUjgirdanV4




    insects




    zrikavac (cricket)


    sounds like zrizri
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZo4ZdKbqwg




    cvrcak (cicada)


    sounds like cvrrrrrr
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bnd6Ty68FU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqys8lKsu4s


    muva (fly)


    muva (house fly)


    sounds like movazzz
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcuKTheCcsE




    zunzara (bluebottle), obad (gadfly, horsefly) any big loud fly




    sounds like zuzzzzz
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQiVnxepan4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNUd6cqh5Zk




    pčela pronounced pchela but probably comes from (mpbv)(sz)ela like in polish pszczoła (beee)


    sounds like mpbvsze
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtK9_EKDg1E


    osa (wasp)


    sounds like ossssssssss
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0f8vqlmxmY




    bumbar (bumblebee)


    sounds like bummmm
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDMaOdIR9nA
    Last edited by dublin; 28-05-13 at 21:59.

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    Another interesting things about Serbian animal names is that the only two animal names that don't match the main animal sound on the first syllable are the name for horse and the name for swallow. The horse doeas however make two main sounds of which one sounds like ko or go and the other like njiii, and it is possible that the name is the combination of the two sounds. The swallow name "lastavica" does not match the sound on the first syllable. This is actually to be expected as i used the sound of the barn swallow. Barn swallows are the most common European swallow type today. They nest in barns and cow sheds. When my father went to his parents village last year, the old people complained to him that there are fewer and fewer swallows every year. This is because the vilage is dying, there are only old people left in it and there are fewer and fewer cows and working cow sheds and barns in which swallows can nest. Once cows are gone from the cow shed the swallows are gone next year. Which means no cows in cow sheds no barn swallows. So these barn swallows only arrived with cows and cow sheds, which is well in the time of fully developed language. However before there were any cows in cow sheds, there was another type of swallow that lived around people in the Balkans: the bank swallow or sand martin. And you wont be able to guess what sound does it make. It is "laslastatatalastatata" which corresponds perfectly with the name "lasta" which is one of the swallow names in Serbian. The mame for barn swallow "lastavica" which looks similar to bank swallow but has a song that goes like "vichvichlastavichvich" basically means "swallow that says vich" or "lastavica"




    http://www.hark.com/clips/rnxrmggdbd...d-of-an-animal
    http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Bank_Swallow/sounds
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5hSUIgpkUY

    If we accept that giving onomatopoeic names is the oldest way of naming then these Serbian animal names are probably the oldest European words. And they have all been preserved in Serbian but not in other European languages. How do we explain this?

    I will finish this discussion on animal names with an Irish word for the end "críoch" and Serbian word for the end "kraj". :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by dublin View Post
    Barn swallows are the most common European swallow type today. They nest in barns and cow sheds. When my father went to his parents village last year, the old people complained to him that there are fewer and fewer swallows every year. This is because the vilage is dying, there are only old people left in it and there are fewer and fewer cows and working cow sheds and barns in which swallows can nest. Once cows are gone from the cow shed the swallows are gone next year. Which means no cows in cow sheds no barn swallows.
    I'm sorry but your observational skills are beyond hope. Your above observation is wrong on many levels.

    Barn swallows are the most common European swallow type today. They nest in barns and cow sheds.
    It is only called Barn swallow in English, in other countries it is just swallow. There original nesting place is on steep rocks, or sandstone escarpments by the rivers. When people started building structures, it was to swallows likings and they like the walls and beams, the way they like high banks places.

    They nest in barns and cow sheds
    They like barns, but it doesn't mean that these are only places swallows nest. They like barns because there are always lot of flies around cows. Maybe it is the connection? If barns are gone, there still will be swallows around people's houses. They can attach their nests to the wood or brick walls or to the soffits under the roof. I'm sure you've seen their nest on houses, you just didn't know that it is the same Barn Swallow doing that.

    Once cows are gone from the cow shed the swallows are gone next year. Which means no cows in cow sheds no barn swallows
    Wrong, swallows don't eat cows. If cows are gone, swallows will still live in the area. I would claim that as long as there are flies in the village, there will be swallows. I can bet my life on it.
    The only change is that with lack of cows there are fewer flies flying around villages. This definitely affects swallow population. Fewer flies, less food for swallows, equals fewer swallows.


    Unfortunately your onomastic skills are at the same level. Please, stop this nonsense.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    LeBrok

    You have never been to a real old fashioned village, i can see that. Barn swallows "only" nest in cow sheds and barns that are being used. I know that from experience, i don't need to bet. When cows are gone and when barns are not used, swallows are gone as well. Town swallows nest on houses under roofs. They don't need cows. Also the swallows that had "original nesting place is on steep rocks, or sandstone escarpments by the rivers" still do nest there. They are called bank swallows. They are different species. Please check you facts before you start handing out insults. As for my onomastic skills i will leave this to everyone to decide for themselves. This is why i supplied the files. If you find me any other European animal names that fit the animal sounds better please give me an example. Otherwise you have no case.

    Few more interesting thing i found in my notes about link between sheep, cattle and women:


    In Irish word for daughter is "ní". So Ana ní Cormack means Ana daughter of Cormack. But "ní" also means thing. This basically equates a daughter with a thing, to a property. So Ana ní Cormack becomes Ana property of Cormack. We find this exact thing in the Dinaric area of the Balkans where even today daughters are not considered to be children. You would hear people say: "I have two children and one daughter". This is patriarchal Iron Age society at its peak. So from here it is easy to understand why we have ban, bana, bean = woman, girl and possible ba(n) sheep and banair sheep fold.


    Here is the remnant of this patriarchal society from the Balkans. Does anyone know of any similar customs from Gaelic lands?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sworn_virgin


    The term sworn virgin has come to refer to a traditional social role in the highlands of Albania and Montenegro. Among the highlander groups, a similar, cross-cultural clan-based orientation and highly marked sexual roles have created a situation where there has been a shortage of adult males. One suitable alternative is the sworn virgin (Serbian tobelija or tybelí, ostajnica "she who stays" or muskobanja "man-like woman"; Albanian virgjineshtë / burrneshë), a female-born person who takes on the social (but not sexual) role of a man. They dress, work and live as men, but remain chaste and unmarried.
    The origins of the "sworn virgins" are disparate: some choose this role (as early as childhood and as late as just before their marriage ceremony) while others are raised or forced into it by circumstance. These societies have suffered a severe shortage of men due to interclan violence and Ottoman oppression; a clan without a patriarch might choose a female as an ostajnica, or female replacement, who would subsequently take on a male social role.



    And here they call it Albanian sworn virgin even though it is an old Balkan custom, which admittedly survived mostly among the northern Albanians which are all Albanized old Dinaric population with the same genes, and which actually keeps clan links with the old Montenegrian clans from which they originally separated during Turkish occupation of the Balkans:


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_sworn_virgins


    The tradition of sworn virgins developed out of the Kanuni i Lekë Dukagjinit (English: The Code of Lekë Dukagjini, or simply the Kanun),[5] a set of codes and laws developed by Lekë Dukagjini and used mostly in northern Albania and Kosovo from the 15th century until the 20th century. The Kanun is not a religious document – many groups follow it including Roman Catholic, Albanian Orthodox, and Muslims.[6]
    The Kanun dictates that families must be patrilineal (meaning wealth is inherited through a family's men) and patrilocal (upon marriage, a woman moves into the household of her husband's family).[7] Women are treated like property of the family. Under the Kanun women are stripped of many human rights. They cannot smoke, wear a watch, or vote in their local elections. They cannot buy land, and there are many jobs they are not permitted to hold. There are even establishments that they cannot enter.[4][6]

    This code has just canonized the old tribal laws that existed in the Dinaric region of the Balkans from time immemorial.


    From the above it is also easy to understand the link between bàn = white, bana, bean = woman, girl, and and banais = wedding. Wedding is a ceremony of acquiring a woman as a property. There is a direct link in Irish tradition between sheep, shepard, woman and wedding:




    banais - marriage-feast, wedding. Banais refers to the wedding party or dinner while pòsadh is the Gaelic for marriage and usually refers to what happens in the church or the registry office.
    ban, bana - woman. In Bosnia there is a word "bona" which is a old word for woman...
    bean na bainnse - bride



    This is the link between wedding as a ceremony of acquiring property. I describes a ceremony in which the shepard kings marries the land and in that way becomes its owner or ruler:


    banais ríghe


    [Irish, wedding-feast of kingship]


    A ritual practiced by early Irish kings in which they were united with the sovereignty of the territory over which they ruled. The abundant evidence of the annals testifies that the practice was widespread, although details are not always precise. The ceremony appears to have comprised two main elements, the libation offered by the bride to her husband and the coition. At Tara the ritual was called feis temrach.

    Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/banais-r-ghe#ixzz2UE93sCKc


    The personification of the power and authority of a kingdom as a woman to be won sexually pre-dates literature written in any Celtic language. In the hierogamy [Gk hieros, sacred; gamos, marriage] described in a Sumerian hymn (2nd millennium BC), the king must mate with Inanna, queen of heaven and goddess of love and fertility, on New Year's Day in her residence. In the hymn the king is seen as an incarnation of Dumuzi, a shepherd-king and husband of Inanna, and thus the rite of hierogamy ends with his ecstatic sexual union with her, perhaps acted out in life with one of Inanna's sacred prostitutes. Correlatives and echoes to a kind of spiritual and/or physical sexual union between the male king and a divine female sovereignty are widespread in early Indo-European culture, as far away as India in the instances of Vishnu and Sri-Lakshmi. Within Celtic traditions, evidence of sexual-sovereignty rituals, involving horses, survives to late pre-Norman Ireland, as the shocked and disgusted observations of Giraldus Cambrensis in Topographia Hibernica (1188) testify. Early Irish texts describe the ritual banais ríghe [wedding-feast of kingship], which included (1) a libation from the sovereignty bride and (2) the coition of the king with sovereignty herself. At Tara for the installation of the ard rí [high king], the ceremony was known as feis temrach [Irish foaid, spends the night with] and fled bainisi.

    Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/lady-so...#ixzz2UEAokUub


    Finally "ní" also means not, nothing. This equates "ní" with "not a son". So Ana ní Cormack becomes Ana property of Cormack, not the son of Cormack. In Serbian we have the same suffix for creating negation:


    šta - what, something
    ništa - nothing




    e - accented è, he, it, Irish é, *ei-s: root ei, i; Old Latin eis (= is, he, that), ea, she (= eja); Gothic is, German er, es; Sanskrit ayam. The Old Irish neuter was ed, now eadh (as in seadh, ni h-eadh).

    Basically it means what exists.


    je, e - is, exists
    nije, nie - doesn't exist


    The last example shows that the word for "is" is the same in Irish and Serbian and that construction of "is not" is the same.


    Next few words make this even more interesting:




    Irish:


    c' - for co, cia, who, what
    cà, ca - where, Irish cá, how, where, who; a by-form to cia, cè
    cho, co - as, so, Irish comh, Welsh cyn; from com, with. See comh-. Gaelic "Cho dubh ri feannaig" = Welsh "Cyn ddued a'r frân".

    Serbian:


    "k", from "ko" which means who, or "ka" which means where, where to, towards
    Ko, Ka, ku(or in old southern Serbian dialects ka) which mean who, where, how. Examples: ko (ko je to?) - who is it, k (k tebi) - towards you, ka (ka tebi) towards you, ka (ka, kaj, sta) - what, ka(ko) (kako to) - how, how is that possible or done, ku(da) or ka(de) (ku da idemo) - where are we going.


    Dakle ca + e = Ka + e = kaj je = sta to, sta je - what is it


    ka de e = kade je, kude je, gde je - where is


    I find this Serbian word very interesting: kak, kako = ka + k, ka + ko = ca + c(o) = how, where + who, what = how is something done or by whom


    Considering that the words for where, who, what, existence are the same in Irish and Serbian, the next few words should not be a surprise:




    bith - the world, existence, Irish, Old Irish bith, Welsh byd, Breton bed, Gaulish bitu-, *bitu-s; root bi, bei, live, Indo-European @gei, @gi, whence Latin vivo, English be, etc. Hence beatha, beò, biadh, q.v.
    bith - being (inf. of bì, be), Irish, Early Irish beith, Old Irish buith.


    bi, bì - be Irish bí, be thou, Old Irish bíu, sum, bí be thou, Old Welsh bit, sit, bwyf, sim, Middle Breton bezaff. Proto-Celtic bhv-ijô, for Old Irish bíu, I am; Latin fio; English be; Indo-European root bheu, be. See bha. Stokes differs from other authorities in referring bíu, bí to Celtic beiô, root bei, bi, live, as in bith, beatha, Latin vivo, etc.

    So bit is the world, reality, existence which comes from bi, bei which means alive, what exists. Examples in Serbian:


    Sta bi? Sta je bilo? - What happened? What existed?
    Gde bi? Gde je bilo? Where happened? Where existed?
    Ti - you
    Biti - bi ti - you exist
    u biti - in existance, reality
    sa - with
    bitisati - bi ti sa ti - to be with you, to be together.




    So all the above words: be, is, where, what, who, how, not are all the same in Irish and Serbian (and other Slavic languages) again, but not all the same in Other European languages (some are and some are not). If you look at the distribution of the above words in Europe you can see why I think that Central Europe (Balkan, Baltic) is the European language birth place. I believe that the above words came to England and Ireland from Central Europe with various Central European (Vinca, Celtic, Anglo Saxon, Viking) invasions via south Baltic.

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    Dublin,

    you have demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that you have no understanding of linguistics, nor have the will to learn them. What you are doing is having an already fixiated opinion (that there has to be a special relationship between Serbian and Irish - and this is not any different from how a creationist has the pre-fabricated view that the 'bible must be right'), and going from there you are taking cherrypicked words in irish and serbian, ignoring that other celtic and slavic languages exist, in fact even denying that languages that are unanimously considered celtic by scholars (eg. celtiberian and gaulish), are not actually 'celtic' but claim that they are slavic instead, and you cite a slovenian nationalist website as evidence (it reads "Welcome on the Website of the Project Origin of Slovenians!" on the main page, which reminds me suspiciously of this):

    Quote Originally Posted by dublin View Post
    Is it time to rethink the whole “Celtic languages” thing? Are central European, mainly Slavic languages but also Germanic and Baltic languages, the real Celtic languages?

    If this is the case, then all documented common words in Celtic and Slavic languages should not surprise you anymore.

    Here is just an example of what I am talking about:

    http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbor...eltoslav06.pdf

    Or this:

    http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbor...lavic_gaul.pdf

    Without knowing how strong and how long the influence of the Central European cultures which reached Ireland and Britain via South Baltic was, the above claims would have been absurd. Now they are to be expected.
    Very compelling. As a matter of fact, I was very entertained when I read those because the guy has just as little understanding of linguistics, no offense, as you do.


    And, to make things better, you are also invoking the Hittites, Sumerians and Trojans in your 'Serbian Vinca hypothesis'. If you are already at that stage, why not Mayans and Martians?

    By the way, I should add something else: it's one thing when scientists have eccentric hypotheses. It's good that these show up, because scientific progress thrives on this, either by verifying, or by falsifying these hypotheses. But, there is a catch with this: scientists have a rigorous, consistent methodology. Now what you are doing is that you sometimes pick, to use your own words...

    Quote Originally Posted by dublin View Post
    Here is the official etymology:
    ... and then start drawing your own conclusions and start to magically dismantle words as you see fit. It doesn't work that way. I haven't seen you talk about other Slavic languages like Polish or Russian here, or other Celtic languages (well, you have told us that those do not exist), and I haven't seen you give any consideration was Serbian or Irish might have sounded like 2000 years ago.

    What I found particularly amusing is your insistence that the Irish word "tuath" was borrowed...

    Quote Originally Posted by dublin View Post
    All i am saying is that Tuatha is a foreign word, not Gaelic and has negative characteristics associated with invading foreign non Gaelic force.
    ... which every linguist will tell you that it's not. My conclusion is that you are unable to distinguish wether a word is borrowed or not because you do not understand how the methods to determine that work, and, to be honest, seem to want to. You just have your Ireland-Serbia idea and it keep repeating it.

    Now, you're asking us to take you seriously, which, no offense, I find quite the daunting task, since you are placing yourself so far outside of things that it's impossible to argue with you. And, you ask us to keep this thread 'open forever'. The problem I see is this: people are not going to learn anything there.

    Sorry, case closed.

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