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From Anatolia to the Balkan to the rest of Europe. Maybe in today's lands it would be like Turkey- Greece/Albania- Italy- Iberia etc etcDid R1b take the central Asian route into Europe or did it enter into Europe from Anatolia to Balkans route? This is a debate
Other opinions please lol, I think M269 moved from Central Asia through central Russia, into north-central Europe, into England, Germany France, Spain etc. wherever it is found today. I believe it bypassed the Balkans never passed there.
I wrote my thoughts about the same subject some time ago: I did not change too much my mind so I post it again: just my opinion for now before more ancient DNA
DNA-Y R1b first travels in Europe
Based on the work of Myre (I think because I only transfered the cyphers into a 'Open Office classeur' without note scrupulously the name, and others as Cruciani or Balaresque did some similar work) I made some suppositions (surely made by others yet) :
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on an other side if P312 was born in Central Danau and around, it could have given birth to well separate downstreams of itself, some going by land, other by sea (Mediterranea) ???
to matbir
I'm late tonight and have no time to get back on this survey - but the Myres work was criticized in details by Busby, concerning the regional variances of Y-R1b and the "heterogneous" sampling, for Ireland and Turkey by instance - to be direct, I have no idea of the first place of departure of Y-R1b who began Western European forthe most, but I think yet a northern caspian way is the more evident for the travel of the most of them - and we have to explain the paucity of late R1b SNPs in S-E Europe (except the lands colonized lately by La Tene Celts): there Y-R1b is like a "dead branch" - we can imagine some later events partly erasing more ancient distributions but the overwhelming domination of Y-R1b among Basques and Atlantic-celtic populations compared to other real or supposed Anatolian-Caucasian-Near-Eastern Y-HGs is hard to explain (but plagues and selection?!?) if they were neolithical peasants...
or neolithical southeastern waves of people completely independant one form the other???
Did R1b take the central Asian route into Europe or did it enter into Europe from Anatolia to Balkans route? This is a debate
Can the people who suggest that R1b did not pass through the Eastern Mediterranean/Anatolia/Balkans explain the 30% prevalence of R1b among Armenians? Also, what about the 17% prevalence among Cretans? The argument of relatively recent back-migration from western Europe into these regions does not hold, as these populations (i.e Armenians, Cretans) wold have had very large proportions of western European autosomal admixture. Based on the autosomal data available so far, they do not!
There are late R1b SNPs in Balkans but they are not classified (L23* and M269*) yet.to matbir
I'm late tonight and have no time to get back on this survey - but the Myres work was criticized in details by Busby, concerning the regional variances of Y-R1b and the "heterogneous" sampling, for Ireland and Turkey by instance - to be direct, I have no idea of the first place of departure of Y-R1b who began Western European forthe most, but I think yet a northern caspian way is the more evident for the travel of the most of them - and we have to explain the paucity of late R1b SNPs in S-E Europe (except the lands colonized lately by La Tene Celts): there Y-R1b is like a "dead branch" - we can imagine some later events partly erasing more ancient distributions but the overwhelming domination of Y-R1b among Basques and Atlantic-celtic populations compared to other real or supposed Anatolian-Caucasian-Near-Eastern Y-HGs is hard to explain (but plagues and selection?!?) if they were neolithical peasants...
or neolithical southeastern waves of people completely independant one form the other???
But it is the case, because only one man who carried L23 had a son with L51 whose descendants populated Western Europe. There is possibility that some other parts of Europe could have been populated by Caucasian or Central Asian road, I am referring to Circum-Uralic region and Northeast Europe. There is a lot of L23* from Central Europe to Ural and Hindu Kush waiting for classification, new survey is needed to uncover homeland and migration roads of L23. My guess is Balkans, because the highest frequency of M269(xL23) is in Kosovo (7.9%), Serbia (4.4%) and Macedonia (5.1%), but Anatolia and Iran are also possible because of presence of both subclades and this is center of distribution of L23*.My guess - from Anatolia to the Balkans and into central Europe as well as along the Mediterranean during the Neolithic but also through central Asia to Europe during the Bronze Age. It doesn't have to be a case of choosing one over the other.
There are late R1b SNPs in Balkans but they are not classified (L23* and M269*) yet.
If spread of agriculture wasn’t major population movement but diffusion then R1b making its way along Danube could have lost companion of other Anatolian haplogroups that is how bottleneck works. But Busby’s finding seems to contradict spread of L11 along with agriculture.
Let’s see Busby et al.:
Part of section 4.Discussion – criticism of age estimation methods:
“Dating of Y chromosome lineages is notoriously controversial [25,41–44], the major issue being that the choice of STR mutation rate can lead to age estimates that differ by a factor of three (i.e. the evolutionary [25] versus observed (genealogical) mutation rates [33,45]). Interestingly, despite the fact that Myres et al. and Balaresque used different STR mutation rates and dating approaches, their TMRCA estimates overlap: 8590–11 950 years using a mutation rate of 6.9 * 10-4 per generation, and 4577–9063 years using an average mutation rate of 2.3 * 10-3, respectively. Separately, Morelli calculated the TMRCA based only on Sardinian and Anatolian chromosomes, and estimated the RM269 lineage to have originated 25 000–80 700 years ago) [22], based on the same evolutionary mutation rate [25,41] as Myres et al.”
“5. CONCLUSION
The distributions of the main R-S127 sub-haplogroups, R-S21, R-S145 and R-S28, show markedly localized concentrations (figure 3). If the R-M269 lineage is more recent in origin than the Neolithic expansion, then its current distribution would have to be the result of major population movements occurring since that origin. For this haplogroup to be so ubiquitous, the population carrying R-S127 would have displaced most of the populations present in western Europe after the Neolithic agricultural transition. Alternatively, if R-S127 originated prior to the Neolithic wave of expansion, then either it was already present in most of Europe before the expansion, or the mutation occurred in the east, and was spread before or after the expansion, in which case we would expect higher diversity in the east closer to the origins of agriculture, which is not what we observe. The maps of R-S127 sub-haplogroup frequencies for R-S21, R-S145 and R-S28 show radial distributions from specific European locations (figure 3). These centres have high absolute frequencies: R-S21 has a frequency of 44 per cent in Friesland, and RS28 reaches 25 per cent in the Alps; and in the populations where they are at the highest frequency, the vast majority of R-S127 belong to that particular sublineage. For example, half of all R-M269 across southern Europe is R-S28-derived, and around 60 per cent of RM269 in Central Europe is R-S21-derived. At the subhaplogroup level, then, R-M269 is split into geographically localized pockets with individual R-M269 subhaplogroups dominating, suggesting that the frequency of R-M269 across Europe could be related to the growth of multiple, geographically specific sub-lineages that differ in different parts of Europe.
A recent analysis of radiocarbon dates of Neolithic sites across Europe [46] reveals that the spread of the Neolithic was by no means constant, and that several ‘centres of renewed expansion’ are visible across Europe, representing areas of colonization, three of which map intriguingly closely to the centres of the sub-haplogroups foci (electronic supplementary material, figure S3). Future work involving spatially explicit simulations, together with accurate measures of Y chromosome diversity, are needed to investigate how the current distribution of sub-haplogroups may have been produced. In this context, recent work by Sjo¨din & Franc¸ois [47] rejected a Palaeolithic dispersion for R1b-M269 using spatial simulations based on the dataset of Balaresque. Nevertheless, we note that additional work is still necessary as these authors were not aware of the limitation of the Balaresque dataset presented here, and did not fully explore the impact of the different molecular characteristics of the investigated loci on their analysis.
Age estimates based on sets of Y-STRs carefully selected to possess the attributes necessary for uncovering deep ancestry (for example, from the almost 200 recently characterized here [33]), and from whole Y chromosome sequence comparisons, will provide robust dates for this haplogroup in the future. For now, we can offer no date as to the age of R-M269 or R-S127, but believe that our STR analyses suggest the recent age estimates of R-M269 [20] and R-S116 [21] are likely to be younger than the true values, and the homogeneity of STR variance and distribution of sub-types across the continent are inconsistent with the hypothesis of the Neolithic diffusion of the R-M269 Y chromosome lineage.”
So if diversity of R1b does not increase in west - east direction that suggest longer presence of this haplogroup in western Europe then from Neolithic transition or recent mass movement, which probably never happened because the source population does not exist. I have put in bold part, which support Neolithic growth of R1b in Western Europe, here is link to supplementary material.
But it is the case, because only one man who carried L23 had a son with L51 whose descendants populated Western Europe. There is possibility that some other parts of Europe could have been populated by Caucasian or Central Asian road, I am referring to Circum-Uralic region and Northeast Europe. There is a lot of L23* from Central Europe to Ural and Hindu Kush waiting to classification, new survey is needed to uncover homeland and migration roads of L23. My guess is Balkans, because the highest frequency of M269(xL23) is in Kosovo (7.9%), Serbia (4.4%) and Macedonia (5.1%), but Anatolia and Iran are also possible because of presence of both subclades and this is center of distribution of L23*.
the linguists today are much more educated than those of the 19th century and they do not any more dare to classify Basque, because this language is not either satem or centum, but IE it is can be, today computer programs work on this delicate subject.pleasant: I answer myself!
a new thought came across my mind:
the present of 'gedrosia' elements among "Celts", N-Europeans ("germanic") and Basques along with a possible northern route to W-Europe for a part of Y-R1b + the possibility of a basquelike language in Scandinavia before satem I-E and finnic could explain the remaining basque language among I-E languages - no miracle!
the more rare S-E Europe R1b from Anatolia (or less evident from N-coasts of Black Sea) send relatively lately I-E languages in the Danau bassin AND indo-europeanized older R1b basquelike speaking (older in Europe, NOT on the family "tree") in central Europe - that could explain the all discrepancy we find about R1b SNPs distribution and density and languages problems???...
the linguists today are much more educated than those of the 19th century and they do not any more dare to classify Basque, because this language is not either satem or centum, but IE it is can be, today computer programs work on this delicate subject.
Too much error, enormity being hurled by alleged people taught in subject.
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