R1b entry into Europe

therefore you should not read any article but only the serious articles, verbs in Basque are systematically used with an infinitive form accompagne of an auxiliaire and ergative. This is also case of ancient language IE.
Nowadays it is risked to maintain that Basque is or is not a language IE.
The linguists said that it faillait 3000 years in a language so that it is very hard transformed, the bulk is to know the age of the most ancient language at the origin of the group IE, therefore if they are held in reasoning premiiers IE is less than 3000 years old? By knowing that both languages would have diverged chacunes during 3000 years they succeed in multiplying linguistic distance by two.

Nothing makes it on topic cannot be asserted, and I am surprised to see so many people writing affirmations, while the best of everything linguist asserts nothing and to name them, no language can be nowadays compare in Basque but it is well necessary to admit that the languages which get closer most languages IE are.
My purpose is not to say that Basque is IE but of resting a question having accepted poor answers, I wait for an answer to the realistic or logical minimun.
 
My opinion


R1b originally along the west coast of the Black Sea, displaced by the southward expansion down into the Balkans of the related but distinct R1a steppe population. Some become part of the IE, some go west up the Danube to become the central European Bell Beakers and some - not necessarily large numbers - take the maritime route. Whether by the Danube-Italy route or the maritime route they eventually end up in Iberia and spread from there along the Atlantic coast all the way to Denmark. They then expand from the west to east both as Bell Beaker (south clade) and Funnelbeaker (north clade) just before the slower northern route IE expansion into Europe arrives (Corded Ware).


I can't post links but if you check the expansion of Funnelbeaker (starting around Denmark) and the map of lactose tolerance you can see a strong correlation between Funnelbeaker and lactose tolerance which makes me think that apart from metallurgy the R1b expansion was also connected to improved cattle breeds.
 
Greying Wanderer said:
My opinion


R1b originally along the west coast of the Black Sea, displaced by the southward expansion down into the Balkans of the related but distinct R1a steppe population. Some become part of the IE, some go west up the Danube to become the central European Bell Beakers and some - not necessarily large numbers - take the maritime route. Whether by the Danube-Italy route or the maritime route they eventually end up in Iberia and spread from there along the Atlantic coast all the way to Denmark. They then expand from the west to east both as Bell Beaker (south clade) and Funnelbeaker (north clade) just before the slower northern route IE expansion into Europe arrives (Corded Ware).


I can't post links but if you check the expansion of Funnelbeaker (starting around Denmark) and the map of lactose tolerance you can see a strong correlation between Funnelbeaker and lactose tolerance which makes me think that apart from metallurgy the R1b expansion was also connected to improved cattle breeds.
Click to expand...

unlikely for boat and tolerance lactose proves it because how to load herds of cattle and equine on small boat of epoch. Also Celtic iberian M65 did not exist but it was probably M412 or L11.
The second theory seems much more probable because they find the peaks of tolerance along Atlantic coast and of the North Sea lactose, which is for every population Western Europe feature. images.jpg
 
martiko said:
unlikely for boat and tolerance lactose proves it because how to load herds of cattle and equine on small boat of epoch. Also Celtic iberian M65 did not exist but it was probably M412 or L11.
The second theory seems much more probable because they find the peaks of tolerance along Atlantic coast and of the North Sea lactose, which is for every population Western Europe feature.View attachment 6202
Click to expand...

Yes, I don't think they took the cattle with them. I think they were displaced by the steppe IE's southern expansion into the Balkans and went Danube-Italy-Iberia-Atlantic Coast-Denmark. I think they developed the better cattle breeds after they had settled along the Atlantic coast.

The main point though is people always seem to leave out the Funnelbeakers who expanded from the Atlantic coast just prior to the arrival of the steppe IE from the east. If R1b did expand from the Atlantic coast it was Bell Beakers (south) and Funnelbeakers (north) and not just Bell Beakers.
 
Greying Wanderer said:
Yes, I don't think they took the cattle with them. I think they were displaced by the steppe IE's southern expansion into the Balkans and went Danube-Italy-Iberia-Atlantic Coast-Denmark. I think they developed the better cattle breeds after they had settled along the Atlantic coast.

The main point though is people always seem to leave out the Funnelbeakers who expanded from the Atlantic coast just prior to the arrival of the steppe IE from the east. If R1b did expand from the Atlantic coast it was Bell Beakers (south) and Funnelbeakers (north) and not just Bell Beakers.
Click to expand...

you are not right, because the genetic European analysis of the horses and cows points out origin Central Asia and also dogs' breed found in Basque country, Irland are of Siberian origin. The horses bashkir are of the same descendants as the Irish, Basque, Icelandic horses and almost all European typical breeds. Alone the sheep and nanny goats are originally from Europe or from the Caucasus. R1b would have had a lot of problems to transport the stock, hay, drinking water as well as themselves on boats. The only possibility is to follow the banks of the big rivers and on regions rich in pasture and Danube and Rhin for example would be possible.

Therefore you can forget the first hypothesis with boats because it is unachievable for epoch.
 
martiko said:
you are not right, because the genetic European analysis of the horses and cows points out origin Central Asia and also dogs' breed found in Basque country, Irland are of Siberian origin. The horses bashkir are of the same descendants as the Irish, Basque, Icelandic horses and almost all European typical breeds. Alone the sheep and nanny goats are originally from Europe or from the Caucasus. R1b would have had a lot of problems to transport the stock, hay, drinking water as well as themselves on boats. The only possibility is to follow the banks of the big rivers and on regions rich in pasture and Danube and Rhin for example would be possible.

Therefore you can forget the first hypothesis with boats because it is unachievable for epoch.
Click to expand...

I'll start at the beginning. I can't link images but anyone can check if they want.

If you look at the expansion of Funnelbeaker (west to east from somewhere around Denmark) and at the later expansion of Corded Ware (east to west) you can see they almost completely overlap with Corded Ware (IE R1a) coming out of the Unetice culture and seemingly over-running most of the Funnelbeaker territory.

However if you look at the R1a and R1b distribution in the area of Corded Ware expansion what do you see? They are practically mirrored with the bulk of R1b to the west and the bulk of R1A to the east of the mid-point.

I think this clearly shows that R1b expanded from west to east with the Funnelbeaker culture.

So the question becomes how did R1b get there?
 
Old thread, but I couldn't resist.


Here's my take... (which I have posted in other areas of this forum at different times)


1. R1b lingered in the Kazakhstani grasslands from 18-11 ybp. SPECIFICALLY, the Kazakhstani grassland and NO OTHER.

2. Within this grassland are the four corners of R1b's ancient domain.
a) NW - Bashkirostan (M269 + M73)
b) NE - The Yenesian Valley (Mal'ta and Afontova oldest R*)
c) SE - Tarim Basin (M269 + M73)
d) SW - Turkmenistan (M269 wonderland)

*It is within this region in which the generations of overhunting Mammoth and Asian Bison (Buffalo) led to a realization for the need of basic cattle management techniques and controlled breeding programs.
This would have involved culling herds of weak traits and non-producing bulls. Large bulls (with large balls - not kidding) would purposefully have been left alone.
Cows with large utters, twins, birthing ease, calf growth, good marbling and muscle growth would have been left on the field when possible. Early R1b peoples recognized these beneficial traits and attempted to maintain sustainable wild herds.

They expanded into like terrain: The plains of Anatolia (M269), Iran (M269 + R2) and Eastern Siberia (M73).


>R1b probably made it's first entry into the Balkans and Ukraine during the Pottery Neolithic or soon after, however, I suspect the question asks when R1b entered Western Europe?
 
basin of Volga and Danube seem royal ways for stockbreeders accompanied with their herds and their good but it is not made in the space of two days.
 
martiko said:
you are not right, because the genetic European analysis of the horses and cows points out origin Central Asia and also dogs' breed found in Basque country, Irland are of Siberian origin. The horses bashkir are of the same descendants as the Irish, Basque, Icelandic horses and almost all European typical breeds. Alone the sheep and nanny goats are originally from Europe or from the Caucasus. R1b would have had a lot of problems to transport the stock, hay, drinking water as well as themselves on boats. The only possibility is to follow the banks of the big rivers and on regions rich in pasture and Danube and Rhin for example would be possible.

Therefore you can forget the first hypothesis with boats because it is unachievable for epoch.
Click to expand...
I disagree with you about Iberian horses and domestication: http://www.horseshowcentral.com/horse_breeds/iberian_horse/333/1 http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0018194 paintings showing ancient independent domestication of horse in Iberia: http://www.soscaballolosino.com/Entrada-razasautoctonas/Entrada caballos/Pinturas ecuestres.htm
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 22633 times.

Back
Top