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Thread: More evidence that the PIE R1b people originated in the Maykop culture

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    I just have a few Questions;

    According to our data the wave of Uruk migrants moving from the south to the north covered the entire territory of the Caucasus in the 4th millennium B.C.It is believed that precisely this integration of indigenous and incoming cultures made possible the emergence of the so-called magnificent Maikop culture in the north-western part of the Caucasus. It is possible that a similar process was simultaneously developing in the South Caucasus as well, where it left a noticeable trace. The transformation was so significant that it is reasonable to presume that Uruk migrants together with the local population participated in the creation of the powerful Kura-Araxes culture in the South Caucasus of the Early Bronze Age.


    This is very clear;
    both Maykop and Kura-Araxes are hybrid cultures- from Indigenous and Uruk/Mesopotamia [south] migrants;
    But who exactly are these Indigenous people?
    The indigenous people were the Neolithic populations that had colonised the Caucasus in the Early Neolithic, but had since lagged behind considerably in technological advances compared to the Middle East. There are so many population pockets in the modern Caucasus that it is difficult to say whether the pre-Maykop populations belonged to G2a, J1 or J2.

    Understandably, the scientists had enough ground to formulate their conviction. From the start they supported this assumption by the fact that the burial mounds were typical of the ancient pit-grave culture and already present throughout the northern steppe zone in the 4th millennium B.C., whereas there were no mounds of such construction in Southwest Asia. This was why they assumed that even the magnificent Maikop culture absorbed the technique of building this type of burial mounds as a result of its contacts with the steppe area cultures [81: 75].
    At present the situation has changed drastically. On the basis of a whole series of radiocarbon analyses, it has been proved [15; 82] that burial mounds of the ancient pit-grave culture are of a significantly later period in comparison with Maikop archaeological sites. This allows scholars to assume that the tradition of building this type of burial mounds emerged precisely in the Maikop culture. Its ties with Levant and Mesopotamian antiquities point to its earlier origin [15: 97].


    This is not very clear;
    Does this suggest that the Steppe peoples [Sredny Stog -> Yamna culture] invaded/infiltrated the Maykop culture in a later period?
    Or does this suggest that the Maykop culture was autochthonous and developed a similar culture akin to Yamna based on its ties with Mesopotamia???
    My understanding is the Yamna culture (which started around 3300BCE) is an offshoot of the Maykop culture (which started around 3700BCE), which itself originated in Anatolia or Mesopotamia. Yamna and Maykop later merged into, or were replaced by the Catacomb culture, circa 2500 BCE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarbler View Post
    Those of you who have followed my ramblings for awhile may remember that I stated it was only a matter of time before R1b would claim Gobekli Tepe.
    It's not impossible based on its geographic location, but what were your arguments for an R1b settlement there instead of another haplogroup (notably G2a, J1, J2 and T) ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I wonder Vinca culture (Varna Necropolis) revael its genetical secrets.
    Most probably a blend of G2a, E1b1b and I2a1b, perhaps with some J1 and T.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's not impossible based on its geographic location, but what were your arguments for an R1b settlement there instead of another haplogroup (notably G2a, J1, J2 and T) ?
    My comment about R1b "claiming" Gobekli Tepe have more to do with this haplogroup's tendencies to grab ahold of the good stuff no matter what science has to say of the matter. For example-- Spencer Wells and his R1b first into Europe comments, his tale of R1b being the group that founded Cro-Magnon, even R1b garnering the "highest" spot on the alphabetic nomenclature. I said my earlier comment on this thread tongue-in-cheek, but only partially so.

    While it is possible that R1b had outposts at the start of Gobekli Tepe (which was over 11,000 years ago)... it's far more likely the groups laying the foundation of this settlement where members of hg. I, J1, J2, or G2a. I would think branches of hg. E would have a greater chance of being present during the construction than either R1b or R1a.

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    I hate people trying to make links between Chatal Hoyuk, Gobekli Tepe ( ancient Anatolia in general) and R1b. To me all these ancient sites across turkey, the Urartians of Armenia etc. are linked to the spread of j2 from Mesopotamia to other northern regions of the Middle East; the R1b element was present but very secondary, at very low %, they did not "dominate hurrian or Hittite societies, the J2 was the main elements. The northern Middle East (fertile crescent) has been for thousand and thousands of years, J2 dominated, not R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Most probably a blend of G2a, E1b1b and I2a1b, perhaps with some J1 and T.
    I agree about G2a, but I don't agree about E1b.
    the more ancient in nearby Konya is 2-2,500 years after the destruction of Vinca, almost same time with Hettits or just little earlier

    so you believe that J2 came later with iron age? or bronze age? and did not exist in Vinca?
    and you tottaly exclude R1a to exist in Vinca/Varna ?
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    I hate people trying to make links between Chatal Hoyuk, Gobekli Tepe ( ancient Anatolia in general) and R1b. To me all these ancient sites across turkey, the Urartians of Armenia etc. are linked to the spread of j2 from Mesopotamia to other northern regions of the Middle East; the R1b element was present but very secondary, at very low %, they did not "dominate hurrian or Hittite societies, the J2 was the main elements. The northern Middle East (fertile crescent) has been for thousand and thousands of years, J2 dominated, not R1b.
    You can't possibly know that. Who would have guessed that the European Neolithic was dominated by G2a ? Haplogroup J2 seems to have expanded fairly late, like R1b. If there is one very old haplogroup, in addition to G and E1b1b, that I would associate with the early Neolithic in Mesopotamia, it would be haplogroup T. As I explained above, I believe that E1b1b, G and T were the three haplogroups that invented and diffused agriculture. Some R1b might have been with them, but only the V88 branch. On the other hand, I am confident that all subclades of E1b1b1, G1, G2 and T are linked to the development of agriculture.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    so you believe that J2 came later with iron age? or bronze age? and did not exist in Vinca?
    and you tottaly exclude R1a to exist in Vinca/Varna ?
    Yes, pretty much.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/05/stanislav-grigorievs-ancient-indo.html

    Dienekes is so right! I do also believe that ancient Indo-European clades of hg. R1b originally came not far from the South of the Caspian Sea (Zagros/Iranian Plateau). Later on hg. R1b moved more to the west into Asia Minor/Central Anatolia and formed the Halaf culture. And from that spot they spread into Europe maybe through Greece or maybe through North Caucasus.
    But the fact is that ancient R1b folks that entered Europe were already Indo-European. R1b was NOT Indo-Europized by R1a or something, lol. I'm sure about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/05/stanislav-grigorievs-ancient-indo.html

    Dienekes is so right! I do also believe that ancient Indo-European clades of hg. R1b originally came not far from the South of the Caspian Sea (Zagros/Iranian Plateau). Later on hg. R1b moved more to the west into Asia Minor/Central Anatolia and formed the Halaf culture. And from that spot they spread into Europe maybe through Greece or maybe through North Caucasus.
    But the fact is that ancient R1b folks that entered Europe were already Indo-European. R1b was NOT Indo-Europized by R1a or something, lol. I'm sure about that.
    Very interesting.

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    Maciamo, it's believed Gobekli Tepe was built by hunter-gatherers, not by a population practicing agriculture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarbler View Post
    Maciamo, it's believed Gobekli Tepe was built by hunter-gatherers, not by a population practicing agriculture.
    This is impossible for pure hunter-gatherers to build bigger settlements as Gobeki Tepe. I don't mean their mental capacity but population numbers to be able to build on this scale. Remember that agriculture started slowly (like everything else) and even its beginning took few thousand years. They needed to develop efficient techniques and seeds had to go through genetic modification, all to be right for large scale farming.
    I would say that Gobeki Tepe is in time period of either, start of agriculture, and most likely it was limited to house gardens, or (and) already fairly extensive herding. Herding is hard to prove by scientists at this stage, because their herding animals were exactly same as wild variety. It took time to develope breeds only found in human control today.

    Once again, I don't think any hunter-gatherer society had their population numbers large enough to start any big settlement, not mentioning civilisation. Not enough food, therefore not enough people. Plus, there is not even one established evidence from archeology of civilization of hunter-gatherers. Food is the reason.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm in agreement with LeBrok. :)

    Yes, it's all about food when talking about a development like Gobekli Tepe. You can't build if you can't eat.

    What I've read about concerning this site is that thousands of years ago, the area received much more rainfall and that it was teeming with life... both plants and animals. (I'm only repeating what the archeologists working the excavation have said.) It was the perfect combination of favorable climate, edible fruits, and plentiful game. Every expert I've read concerning Gobekli Tepe has indicated hunter-gatherer-- made possible only because of a rare and unusual food bounty.

    I have a large chunk (if not the majority) of Gobekli Tepe founders as hg I. Of course as an member of haplogroup I-- I must admit a pronounced bias. But my reasoning is simple-- hg. I always seems to be attached to stone monoliths throughout it's history, and Gobekli Tepe is basically concentric rings of stone monoliths.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/05/stanislav-grigorievs-ancient-indo.html

    Dienekes is so right! I do also believe that ancient Indo-European clades of hg. R1b originally came not far from the South of the Caspian Sea (Zagros/Iranian Plateau). Later on hg. R1b moved more to the west into Asia Minor/Central Anatolia and formed the Halaf culture. And from that spot they spread into Europe maybe through Greece or maybe through North Caucasus.
    But the fact is that ancient R1b folks that entered Europe were already Indo-European. R1b was NOT Indo-Europized by R1a or something, lol. I'm sure about that.
    Until recently Dienekes had always said that R1b and IE languages came to Europe during the Neolithic, while I insisted that they only came during the Bronze Age. This new theory of Grigoriev and others linking the Proto-Indo-European with the Halaf culture is actually in agreement with the views I always supported, namely that R1b PIE people came from eastern Anatolia or northern Mesopotamia before they moved to the North Caucasus and the Pontic Steppe from circa 4000 BCE. The Halaf culture ended around 5400 BCE, so that still leaves 1,500 years before the migration north.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarbler View Post
    Maciamo, it's believed Gobekli Tepe was built by hunter-gatherers, not by a population practicing agriculture.
    Actually only the early settlement of Göbekli Tepe was built by hunter-gatherers. The community later domesticated animals and even started farming a bit. Anyway, what's your point ? I have always said that the first haplogroups to domesticate animals were hg J and R1b (as opposed to farming, first developed by E1b1b, G and T).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/05/stanislav-grigorievs-ancient-indo.html

    Dienekes is so right! I do also believe that ancient Indo-European clades of hg. R1b originally came not far from the South of the Caspian Sea (Zagros/Iranian Plateau). Later on hg. R1b moved more to the west into Asia Minor/Central Anatolia and formed the Halaf culture. And from that spot they spread into Europe maybe through Greece or maybe through North Caucasus.
    But the fact is that ancient R1b folks that entered Europe were already Indo-European. R1b was NOT Indo-Europized by R1a or something, lol. I'm sure about that.
    That is also a thought,

    from what i see in maps I could say

    1) that only R1a is enough to spread IE language,
    yet that thread could exclude R1a from IE speakers

    2) Tocharians, they spoke a kind of anatolian IE language they started migrate from minor-Asia Middle East, BUT THEY WERE R1a,

    3) R1a is also common among Uraloid populations, could they spoke an Fino-Ugric language at first place?

    so at least in case of Tocharian don't be sure to exclude R1a, although it is possible,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    That is also a thought,

    from what i see in maps I could say

    1) that only R1a is enough to spread IE language,
    yet that thread could exclude R1a from IE speakers

    2) Tocharians, they spoke a kind of anatolian IE language they started migrate from minor-Asia Middle East, BUT THEY WERE R1a,

    3) R1a is also common among Uraloid populations, could they spoke an Fino-Ugric language at first place?

    so at least in case of Tocharian don't be sure to exclude R1a, although it is possible,
    The oldest branches of R1a are from West Asia as you can see here: http://kurdishdna.blogspot.be/2013/0...l#comment-form

    If Tocharians were partly R1a folks it is possible that Tocharian R1a was just native to West Asian.

    As you can see here (light blue line) oldest clades of R1a (m420) entered Europe via the Balkans. m420 is estimated to be 8000 years old!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    ...Anyway, what's your point ?
    Re-read post 29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    ...I have always said that the first haplogroups to domesticate animals were hg J and R1b (as opposed to farming, first developed by E1b1b, G and T).
    I'm not willing to concede this as fact. How do you explain the 27,000 year old dog found in the Czech Republic or the 31,700 year old specimen found in Goyet Cave? Is it now believed that R1b showed up in Belgium 32,000 years ago?

    Granted, R1b probably worked with horses first and J probably domesticated cattle, but these topics are far from being accepted as hard fact by the scientific community.

    **EDIT**

    For those readers who may be new to this topic, Gobekli Tepe pre-dates the ancient Sumer civilization by at least 3,000 years (maybe even 4,000). This would make Gobekli Tepe the first/earliest/founding site of human built structures which required collective effort. It may even replace Sumer's claim of being home to "the cradle of civilization" you read about in school.

    Gobekli Tepe is a historical game changer.

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    I was wondering if fishing was what enabled hunter-gatherers to form a village. If they were hunting land animals they would have to move around as the area would soon run out of animals to hunt. Keeping goats and cows would have to be small in numbers as the grass would be gone if too many animals. So fishing using boats would enable hunter-gatherers to form a village with a few cows and goats. They could have harvested plants like cabbage and such as chimpanzees ate plant food too. Over thousands of years the women would have found which vegetables were edible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarbler View Post
    I'm not willing to concede this as fact. How do you explain the 27,000 year old dog found in the Czech Republic or the 31,700 year old specimen found in Goyet Cave? Is it now believed that R1b showed up in Belgium 32,000 years ago?
    Don't be ridiculous. You know I was referring to the first animals domesticated for their meat, namely cattle, goat and pigs.

    As for horses, it was probably both R1b and R1a who domesticated them in the steppes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarbler View Post
    Re-read post 29.
    I still don't know where you are getting at. I am not the one who said that Göbekli Tepe was founded by R1b people. I am the one who doubted that assumption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    The paper does not mention R1b. If the pre-Maykop civilization came from Mesopotamia, then they probably had a lot of E1b1b and J. I think you're taking the most common western european gene and trying to prove that it was a dominant marker of the first ancient advanced civilizations, but it doesn't work because they're all in Levant/Anatolia/Middle East. Thanks for doing this research thou.
    Can't say it any better than this really.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    ...I imagined that R1b brought bronze working, while R1a provided the burial customs. If this new radiocarbon dating is correct, then it would seem that R1b brought both. In that case, it becomes increasingly likely that the Proto-Indo-European language itself was also brought by the more advanced and dominant partner (R1b), and adopted by the R1a population at the same time as the rest of the cultural package from Maykop... "
    So you postulate that R1b (the more advanced and dominant partner) brought bronze, burial customs, and Indo-European language, as well as horse domestication (possibly in partnership with R1a as you mentioned before). Wow, that is quite a body of work and humankind is certainly appreciative of it.

    I'm putting on the brakes though and saying the numbers don't add for R1b founding Gobekli Tepe. Yes I know that ebamerican made the initial statement on this thread, but I've observed a track record from R1b members and I won't be surprised if Gobekli Tepe is the next intended target. That's how you guys roll. However this is one claim (albeit probably the juciest of all) that R1b proponents aren't going to win, not logically anyway.

    Humans using construction materials in a cohesive, intelligent manner at Gobekli Tepe-- and in my opinion the building of humanity's first civilization-- can be attributed to a mix of hg. I, J1, J2, and G2a. Maybe some lines of E as well.

    This is surely a difficult pill to swallow for R1b members because I've noticed that members this particular hg. seem to pride themselves on being "the architects" of modern society.

    Lucky for us more primitive haplogroups, we were able to muddle through long enough for R1b to arrive on their white horses to lead us forward on our journey. We unwashed heathens did build a really cool system of massive concentric stones (11,000 years ago) that somehow didn't tumble like a set of large dominos, and we did it all without a set of blueprints from our most evolved R1b chieftains. Whew, we dodged the bullet on that one. :)
    Last edited by nordicwarbler; 26-05-13 at 05:02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    What remains unclear is how R1b was part of the Neolithic and Chalcolithic expansion within the Middle East, but that the migrants who brought the Neolithic to Europe belonged only to G2a and E1b1b (and perhaps also J1, J2 and T). That may have been caused by a founder effect in the original population of Neolithic farmers who moved to Europe. Or it could be that R1b was confined to the north or east of the Fertile Crescent and decided to expand north across the Caucasus, while Levantine farmers moved to Europe. G2a would have brought agriculture from the Levant to eastern Anatolia, and R1b picked it up before moving north.

    I think I had mentioned not that long ago that there are Kurgan stelae found in Southeastern Anatolia and Northern Mesopotamia which are in date older than these found in the Steppes. Most of these traces were diminished by other conquering people.
    Last edited by Alan; 26-05-13 at 15:12.

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