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Thread: More evidence that the PIE R1b people originated in the Maykop culture

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    That is also a thought,

    from what i see in maps I could say

    1) that only R1a is enough to spread IE language,
    yet that thread could exclude R1a from IE speakers

    2) Tocharians, they spoke a kind of anatolian IE language they started migrate from minor-Asia Middle East, BUT THEY WERE R1a,

    3) R1a is also common among Uraloid populations, could they spoke an Fino-Ugric language at first place?

    so at least in case of Tocharian don't be sure to exclude R1a, although it is possible,
    Finno-Ugric languages are connected to Haplogroup N. There is no doubt that R1a people have a connection to the earliest Indo Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarbler View Post
    So you postulate that R1b (the more advanced and dominant partner) brought bronze, burial customs, and Indo-European language, as well as horse domestication (possibly in partnership with R1a as you mentioned before). Wow, that is quite a body of work and humankind is certainly appreciative of it.
    I personally think that R1b people didn't invent agriculture, pottery, writing, city-states, and many other important early inventions or developments. Actually I've always claimed that R1b people didn't invent agriculture and that they didn't spread the Neolithic to Europe, going completely against the current of the vast majority of "professional" population geneticists, as well as from bloggers like Dienekes or Davidski.

    R1b surely acquired agriculture from its Middle Eastern neighbours to the south (Levant). The only place where R1b might have spread the Neolithic is to the Pontic-Caspian steppes. But even there agriculture played only a minor role due to the harsh climate, and cattle and goat/sheep herding was the main means of subsistence. Hence my assumption that R1b might have domesticated these animals, as R1b was in the right region (eastern Anatolia) at the time and someone had to bring these domesticates to the steppes, so who better than R1b ?

    I also never say that they invented burial customs ! The new data I mentioned in the OP seems to point that the kurgan (tumulus) type of burial, i.e. the one undeniably associated with the steppe cultures and later Indo-European migrations, might well have originated in the Middle East (not necessarily with the R1b people who exported the practice to the steppes). In any case, there are plenty of types of burial practices, and the most impressive were those of the Megalithic people (mostly G2a and I2) of Western Europe and of the ancient Egyptians (mostly E1b1b, G and T).

    But as far as bronze working is concerned, I do see a link with R1b. Indo-European languages are not an invention, and they are undeniably spoken mostly by R1a- and R1b-dominated societies nowadays.

    As for the horse domestication, as I said, R1a played as much a role as R1b, and there were probably some G2a3b1 among them as well.

    I'm putting on the brakes though and saying the numbers don't add for R1b founding Gobekli Tepe. Yes I know that ebamerican made the initial statement on this thread, but I've observed a track record from R1b members and I won't be surprised if Gobekli Tepe is the next intended target. That's how you guys roll. However this is one claim (albeit probably the juciest of all) that R1b proponents aren't going to win, not logically anyway.
    Frankly, I don't care. It's not a battle, and I am not on anybody' side, R1b or other.

    Humans using construction materials in a cohesive, intelligent manner at Gobekli Tepe-- and in my opinion the building of humanity's first civilization-- can be attributed to a mix of hg. I, J1, J2, and G2a. Maybe some lines of E as well.
    The first civilizations arose in the late Bronze Age. I agree that they were composite of many haplogroups. However Göbekli Tepe was not a civilisation, perhaps not even a culture, merely a settlement. At that time (Mesolithic to early Neolithic), most human populations were still living in tribes of closely related individuals. Hunter-gatherers may have settled down at Göbekli Tepe, but they were still a large extended family, primarily belonging to one haplogroup.

    But Göbekli Tepe was not the only such settlement, and it is likely that all haplogroups present in the Fertile Crescent played their role in the Neolithic development. Agriculture arose in the Levant, domestication in the Taurus and Zagros mountains, and pottery appears to have first be made in Northeast Asia, then was diffused westward through Siberia. All were originally developed by different haplogroups. Actually even domestication could be attributed to different haplogroups depending on the animal.

    On the other hand, there was probably precious little hg I in the region at the time. The present-day I2 found in Kurdistan almost certainly came with R1a from Eastern Europe (perhaps via Central Asia) during the Bronze Age or later. On the other hand, R1b has always been part of the Middle Eastern landscape at a reasonably high frequency (+10%).


    This is surely a difficult pill to swallow for R1b members because I've noticed that members this particular hg. seem to pride themselves on being "the architects" of modern society.

    Lucky for us more primitive haplogroups, we were able to muddle through long enough for R1b to arrive on their white horses to lead us forward on our journey. We unwashed heathens did build a really cool system of massive concentric stones (11,000 years ago) that somehow didn't tumble like a set of large dominos, and we did it all without a set of blueprints from our most evolved R1b chieftains. Whew, we dodged the bullet on that one. :)
    You don't seem to understand that the R1b people who lived in the Middle East 7,000 or 10,000 years ago share very little autosomal DNA with the R1b people of modern Europe. I have explained at length before (e.g. here) that R1b men constantly blended with local population (read women) on their long journey from the Middle East to Western Europe via the North Caucasus, Pontic Steppes, Balkans and Central Europe. I actually think that the original Mesolithic/Neolithic R1b carried autosomal genes that would fit better in the West Asian or Gedrosian admixtures in Dienekes' Dodecad Project.

    Besides, you are not representative of the Y-haplogroup you carry. Whatever their haplogroup, people whose ancestors all come from the same region are more autosomally similar with one another than they are with geographically distant people who share the same haplogroup.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    The oldest branches of R1a are from West Asia as you can see here: http://kurdishdna.blogspot.be/2013/0...l#comment-form

    If Tocharians were partly R1a folks it is possible that Tocharian R1a was just native to West Asian.

    As you can see here (light blue line) oldest clades of R1a (m420) entered Europe via the Balkans. m420 is estimated to be 8000 years old!
    If Tocharians were R1a and R1a is originated in south, Balkans have extreme diversity of R1a, but until today is considered as sink phenomena.
    yet the spead of Vinca/Varna seems to enter minor Asia, and from there spread to North of Caucasos
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I personally think that R1b people didn't invent agriculture, pottery, writing, city-states, and many other important early inventions or developments. Actually I've always claimed that R1b people didn't invent agriculture and that they didn't spread the Neolithic to Europe, going completely against the current of the vast majority of "professional" population geneticists, as well as from bloggers like Dienekes or Davidski.

    R1b surely acquired agriculture from its Middle Eastern neighbours to the south (Levant). The only place where R1b might have spread the Neolithic is to the Pontic-Caspian steppes. But even there agriculture played only a minor role due to the harsh climate, and cattle and goat/sheep herding was the main means of subsistence. Hence my assumption that R1b might have domesticated these animals, as R1b was in the right region (eastern Anatolia) at the time and someone had to bring these domesticates to the steppes, so who better than R1b ?

    I also never say that they invented burial customs ! The new data I mentioned in the OP seems to point that the kurgan (tumulus) type of burial, i.e. the one undeniably associated with the steppe cultures and later Indo-European migrations, might well have originated in the Middle East (not necessarily with the R1b people who exported the practice to the steppes). In any case, there are plenty of types of burial practices, and the most impressive were those of the Megalithic people (mostly G2a and I2) of Western Europe and of the ancient Egyptians (mostly E1b1b, G and T).

    But as far as bronze working is concerned, I do see a link with R1b. Indo-European languages are not an invention, and they are undeniably spoken mostly by R1a- and R1b-dominated societies nowadays.

    As for the horse domestication, as I said, R1a played as much a role as R1b, and there were probably some G2a3b1 among them as well.



    Frankly, I don't care. It's not a battle, and I am not on anybody' side, R1b or other.



    The first civilizations arose in the late Bronze Age. I agree that they were composite of many haplogroups. However Göbekli Tepe was not a civilisation, perhaps not even a culture, merely a settlement. At that time (Mesolithic to early Neolithic), most human populations were still living in tribes of closely related individuals. Hunter-gatherers may have settled down at Göbekli Tepe, but they were still a large extended family, primarily belonging to one haplogroup.

    But Göbekli Tepe was not the only such settlement, and it is likely that all haplogroups present in the Fertile Crescent played their role in the Neolithic development. Agriculture arose in the Levant, domestication in the Taurus and Zagros mountains, and pottery appears to have first be made in Northeast Asia, then was diffused westward through Siberia. All were originally developed by different haplogroups. Actually even domestication could be attributed to different haplogroups depending on the animal.

    On the other hand, there was probably precious little hg I in the region at the time. The present-day I2 found in Kurdistan almost certainly came with R1a from Eastern Europe (perhaps via Central Asia) during the Bronze Age or later. On the other hand, R1b has always been part of the Middle Eastern landscape at a reasonably high frequency (+10%).




    You don't seem to understand that the R1b people who lived in the Middle East 7,000 or 10,000 years ago share very little autosomal DNA with the R1b people of modern Europe. I have explained at length before (e.g. here) that R1b men constantly blended with local population (read women) on their long journey from the Middle East to Western Europe via the North Caucasus, Pontic Steppes, Balkans and Central Europe. I actually think that the original Mesolithic/Neolithic R1b carried autosomal genes that would fit better in the West Asian or Gedrosian admixtures in Dienekes' Dodecad Project.

    Besides, you are not representative of the Y-haplogroup you carry. Whatever their haplogroup, people whose ancestors all come from the same region are more autosomally similar with one another than they are with geographically distant people who share the same haplogroup.

    I see by connecting Gedrosian component and R1b spread you admit that there was a second agricultural boom, mainly by nomadic sheep breaders, something I express as the spread of IE after Neolithic agricultural boom in a possible Anatolian origin outside Renfrew's thesis.

    that is interesting, cause it combines with Indo-Hettit theory for IE language.
    an expansion like the Abraam's patriarchy,?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I see by connecting Gedrosian component and R1b spread you admit that there was a second agricultural boom, mainly by nomadic sheep breaders, something I express as the spread of IE after Neolithic agricultural boom in a possible Anatolian origin outside Renfrew's thesis.

    that is interesting, cause it combines with Indo-Hettit theory for IE language.
    an expansion like the Abraam's patriarchy,?
    Animal herding and stock breeding is not agriculture.

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    Maciamo, thank you for clarifying your positions. I do have a couple questions though:

    1. You've mentioned the placement of R1b in Eastern Anatolia... have ancient remains there been I.D.'ed as R1b members? If so, what time frame are we looking at?

    2. You say it's not a battle, and I would like to agree with you. Unfortunately we all have a bias (part of the human condition really) and I'm upfront in admitting mine. I'm guessing from your posts that you are a R1b member (or at least somewhere in the hg R lineage)... have you publicly declared your y-haplogroup?

    And I do understand the importance of autosomal over y-dna in most applications. However y-DNA does have a role to play in tracing historical movements. What's also interesting about y-DNA (and mtdna for that matter) is that it trumps nationality, religion, and even race. These two outside positions of the genetic funnel cannot be altered and will be with us through all of time... or until the next major mutation anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Animal herding and stock breeding is not agriculture.
    Maybe the meaning in translation is not correct

    Αγροτικος Agriculture contains plant and animal production

    Κτηνοτροφος breader is the one who produces animals
    Γεωργος (landfarmer) is the one who produces seeds and plants right?

    I think with term agriculture we mean both animal and plant production

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Maybe the meaning in translation is not correct

    Αγροτικος Agriculture contains plant and animal production

    Κτηνοτροφος breader is the one who produces animals
    Γεωργος (landfarmer) is the one who produces seeds and plants right?

    I think with term agriculture we mean both animal and plant production
    Agriculture can sometimes have a wider meaning of both plant and animal production, but I've always use agriculture to refer only to farming (of plants). If I mean animals I say herding or stock-breeding.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    A new paper (in German) by Mariya Ivanova argues that the Maykop culture did not originate in Anatolia or Syria (as I had suggested), but rather in Iran or Central Asia. That's an interesting alternative theory because I had ultimately placed the origin of R1b (+ R1a + R2) in Central Asia in the Upper Palaeolithic. That would mean that if Maykop indeed had an R1b connection, R1b could have come straight from southern Central Asia (most likely in modern Iran) to the North Caucasus.

    The only issue with this theory is the very old presence of R1b-V88 in the Levant and Egypt, and its dispersal throughout Africa. Nothing prevents, however, that one branch of R1b migrated first from central Asia to the Levant in the Mesolithic or early Neolithic (perhaps c. 10,000 BCE), then another one migrated much later (4,000 BCE) from Central Asia to the North Caucasus.

    One argument in favour of an origin of R1b in modern Iran is the link between the Gedrosian admixture and modern R1b populations.

    Abstract

    "Graves and settlements of the 5th millennium BC in North Caucasus attest to a material culture that was related to contemporaneous archaeological complexes in the northern and western Black Sea region. Yet it was replaced, suddenly as it seems, around the middle of the 4th millennium BC by a “high culture” whose origin is still quite unclear. This archaeological culture named after the great Maikop kurgan showed innovations in all areas which have no local archetypes and which cannot be assigned to the tradition of the Balkan-Anatolian Copper Age. The favoured theory of Russian researchers is a migration from the south originating in the Syro-Anatolian area, which is often mentioned in connection with the socalled “Uruk expansion”. However, serious doubts have arisen about a connection between Maikop and the Syro-Anatolian region. The foreign objects in the North Caucasus reveal no connection to the upper reaches of the Euphrates and Tigris or to the floodplains of Mesopotamia, but rather seem to have ties to the Iranian plateau and to South Central Asia. Recent excavations in the Southwest Caspian Sea region are enabling a new perspective about the interactions between the “Orient” and Continental Europe. On the one hand, it is becoming gradually apparent that a gigantic area of interaction evolved already in the early 4th millennium BC which extended far beyond Mesopotamia; on the other hand, these findings relativise the traditional importance given to Mesopotamia, because innovations originating in Iran and Central Asia obviously spread throughout the Syro-Anatolian region independently thereof."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    A new paper (in German) by Mariya Ivanova argues that the Maykop culture did not originate in Anatolia or Syria (as I had suggested), but rather in Iran or Central Asia. That's an interesting alternative theory because I had ultimately placed the origin of R1b (+ R1a + R2) in Central Asia in the Upper Palaeolithic. That would mean that if Maykop indeed had an R1b connection, R1b could have come straight from southern Central Asia (most likely in modern Iran) to the North Caucasus.

    The only issue with this theory is the very old presence of R1b-V88 in the Levant and Egypt, and its dispersal throughout Africa. Nothing prevents, however, that one branch of R1b migrated first from central Asia to the Levant in the Mesolithic or early Neolithic (perhaps c. 10,000 BCE), then another one migrated much later (4,000 BCE) from Central Asia to the North Caucasus.

    One argument in favour of an origin of R1b in modern Iran is the link between the Gedrosian admixture and modern R1b populations.

    Abstract

    "Graves and settlements of the 5th millennium BC in North Caucasus attest to a material culture that was related to contemporaneous archaeological complexes in the northern and western Black Sea region. Yet it was replaced, suddenly as it seems, around the middle of the 4th millennium BC by a “high culture” whose origin is still quite unclear. This archaeological culture named after the great Maikop kurgan showed innovations in all areas which have no local archetypes and which cannot be assigned to the tradition of the Balkan-Anatolian Copper Age. The favoured theory of Russian researchers is a migration from the south originating in the Syro-Anatolian area, which is often mentioned in connection with the socalled “Uruk expansion”. However, serious doubts have arisen about a connection between Maikop and the Syro-Anatolian region. The foreign objects in the North Caucasus reveal no connection to the upper reaches of the Euphrates and Tigris or to the floodplains of Mesopotamia, but rather seem to have ties to the Iranian plateau and to South Central Asia. Recent excavations in the Southwest Caspian Sea region are enabling a new perspective about the interactions between the “Orient” and Continental Europe. On the one hand, it is becoming gradually apparent that a gigantic area of interaction evolved already in the early 4th millennium BC which extended far beyond Mesopotamia; on the other hand, these findings relativise the traditional importance given to Mesopotamia, because innovations originating in Iran and Central Asia obviously spread throughout the Syro-Anatolian region independently thereof."
    Quite an interesting article, is there a name for the Culture in 4,000 Bc Iran Plateau.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    With all do respect Goga, not everybody knows how to speak Russian and the translator is not in the clips

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    With all do respect Goga, not everybody knows how to speak Russian and the translator is not in the clips
    What, no Google translation for youtube? :) I thought they covered everything.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 03-07-13 at 17:24.
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    I’m new to this forum, but from time to time get interested in origins of Indo-Europeans and google search brought me this interesting discussion so I decided to join it. This is exciting time due to recent advances in human genotyping. My suggestions based on large picture revealed by haplogroup distribution maps in Europe and beyond. According to the R1b distribution map it looks like R1b survived in Pyrenees during last glacial ice age and then spread north and east of Europe. What makes me think so? The distribution of G2a – which is highest in Maykop culture location. There is one correction to modern maps – presently they show very little distribution of G2a in North-West Caucasus, that was misfortunate outcome of losing war to aggressive Russian Empire in the 19th century – almost entire population was destroyed pretty much same way as East Prussia in more modern times. This is little known fact, therefore modern haplogroup map of North-West Caucasus are very misleading and would show predominantly R1a population. Before that indigenous population had very high proportion of G2a which confirmed by recent genotyping studies of North-West Caucasus native nations – Circassians, Abkhaz and Ossetians. There is strong reason why these nations existed there for millennia – terrain is very difficult for any invaders and population was very skilled in martial arts. I am not aware about genotyping of Maykop people, but I’d assume that they were also G2a. According to maps there is very strong correlation between distribution of Maykop G2a and Roman and Persian empire boundaries. High proportion of G2a in Italy and Turkey indicates that Maykop G2a people probably founded Roman and Hittite empires.
    There is one striking fact from the genotyping map – Basque area, which is extremely high in R1b, but absolutely lacks G2a. If Basque is not Indo-Europena, that would strongly suggests that R1b is not originally linguistically Indo-European haplogroup, but adopted Indo-European language from Bronze Age Maykop G2a Indo-Europeans.

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    No, G2a is very old and was part of the Paleolithic Europe. The only true Y-DNA haplogroup candidate for PIE is J2a. J2a Entered very recently into the Steppes, India and Europe. There's lots of J2a in Ukraine (which was part of Yamna horizon).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    No, G2a is very old and was part of the Paleolithic Europe. The only true Y-DNA haplogroup candidate for PIE is J2a. J2a Entered very recently into the Steppes, India and Europe. There's lots of J2a in Ukraine (which was part of Yamna horizon).
    Thank you for shearing your opinion. J2a reaches maximum in North Caucasus among Chechens, but G2a reaches maximum among Ossetians, who are proven as IE.

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    I ' m still very confused about PIE as for demic aspects thanfor linguistic aspects -
    the last discoveries as on agricultural ground than anthropological/genetical ground proved that an influx came frome S- Caucasus NE Anatolia at these times we link to IE raising - so for all these reasons I agree with the ones that think Y-J2 was involved, perhaps with some primitive enough form of Y-R1b - I lack data for Afghanistan and Kazakhstan populations - it seems that populations close to the ones that took part in the Maikop upraising were involved too in the propagation of metals + agriculture at high level in future "pan-iranic" lands...
    but I'm not sure these people were P-I-E speakers even if their cultural superiority could lead us to think it - PIE could be older...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    What, no Google translation for youtube? :) I thought they covered everything.
    Okay, I improvised and I noticed with the Out of India theory That there are Haplogroup K and P so if that is the case the ancestors of R must have gone North to central Asia and R2 made a back migration to India. On the flip side I took some time off to study about this matter and noticed that in the first recorded history in Central Asia are the Indo-Iranians and the Tajik, Indo-Iranians are apart of the Indo-Europeans already to begin with leaving the ancestors of the Tajik tribes as the first surviving culture in the area unless otherwise. Source: (Denovan Webster and Spencer Wells Meeting the Family; One man's journey through his human Ancestry 2010 National Geographic) and http://www.ask.com/wiki/Early_histor...e_note-lcweb-1 I got a feeling if this Southern Caspian Sea Indo-European Theory is the case then it must be an Ancient Tajik tribe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    Okay, I improvised and I noticed with the Out of India theory That there are Haplogroup K and P so if that is the case the ancestors of R must have gone North to central Asia and R2 made a back migration to India. On the flip side I took some time off to study about this matter and noticed that in the first recorded history in Central Asia are the Indo-Iranians and the Tajik, Indo-Iranians are apart of the Indo-Europeans already to begin with leaving the ancestors of the Tajik tribes as the first surviving culture in the area unless otherwise. Source: (Denovan Webster and Spencer Wells Meeting the Family; One man's journey through his human Ancestry 2010 National Geographic) and http://www.ask.com/wiki/Early_histor...e_note-lcweb-1 I got a feeling if this Southern Caspian Sea Indo-European Theory is the case then it must be an Ancient Tajik tribe.
    Dushanbe is the capital of Tajikistan. Dushanbe is an Iranic name and it means 'Monday' (second day after Saturday) . 'Du' = 2 in Iranic and 'shanbe' = Saturday. Monday is in Kurdish: 'Duseme'. Şeme = Saturday

    So, the word Şeme (Saturday) has West Asian/Babylonian roots.

    Saturday in:

    Sumerian = Shabbât
    Arabic = Sabbath,
    Greek = Sabbaton
    German = Samstag
    Italian = sabato
    Spanish = sábado
    French = Samedi
    Russian – subota
    etc.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_calendar

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_calendar

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    Point taken although, Tajikstan was once apart of Persia so I'm not surprised also this is a hypothesis and am putting it out there. The British have claimed for example according to tradition that the Germanics pushed out the Celts yet DNA has proved otherwise, don't get me wrong, I'm part British myself. You're response has risen a question, since the Tajiks are the earliest record in Central Asia. Are there any oral history pertaining to the Tajiks invading a culture, there could be natives in Central Asia far more ancient than the Tajiks. Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/wo...anted=all&_r=0

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    Point taken although, Tajikstan was once apart of Persia so I'm not surprised also this is a hypothesis and am putting it out there. The British have claimed for example according to tradition that the Germanics pushed out the Celts yet DNA has proved otherwise, don't get me wrong, I'm part British myself. You're response has risen a question, since the Tajiks are the earliest record in Central Asia. Are there any oral history pertaining to the Tajiks invading a culture, there could be natives in Central Asia far more ancient than the Tajiks. Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/wo...anted=all&_r=0
    excuse me because it is off topic a little
    DNA CONFIRMS that eastern Anglo-Saxons pushed the Celts westwards for a part, mixing with some of them nevertheless with time, and in some places (osmose is obligatory with time) - at the beginning, surely the eastern parts of Britain were almost completely germanic around the 6°/7° century...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    excuse me because it is off topic a littleDNA CONFIRMS that eastern Anglo-Saxons pushed the Celts westwards for a part, mixing with some of them nevertheless with time, and in some places (osmose is obligatory with time) - at the beginning, surely the eastern parts of Britain were almost completely germanic around the 6°/7° century...
    It was only an example, I do not mean for this to derail pardon me. But none the less, the point is that since there was no recorded history in Central Asia beyond the Tajiks and Iranians. Why not look to the oral history unless the oral history has been forgotten it's been 28,000 years after all since Haplogroup R was in Central Asia and R1B around the Caspian Sea or Central Asia looking at the Haplogroup Description. Language does change with time after all. Anyways this was not ment to be an argument but just throwing it out there as a Hypothesis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    It was only an example, I do not mean for this to derail pardon me. But none the less, the point is that since there was no recorded history in Central Asia beyond the Tajiks and Iranians. Why not look to the oral history unless the oral history has been forgotten it's been 28,000 years after all since Haplogroup R was in Central Asia and R1B around the Caspian Sea or Central Asia looking at the Haplogroup Description. Language does change with time after all. Anyways this was not ment to be an argument but just throwing it out there as a Hypothesis.
    OK no problem
    concerning Y-R1b I lack more details about distribution East the Caspian sea: according to maps published by Maciamo, the most of the upstream ligneages were rather in Caucasus or South-West the Caucasus and we CAN suppose (it WAS not my first feelings) that R1b expanded about the metal ages with northwards movements of South Caucasus S-W Caspian populations leading perhaps to Maikop culture before acculturate (Indo-Europeanizing) steppes tribes,at least partially -
    BUT it is true that some populations shifts, even rare when total, occurred in History: the N-E caspian region of today, turkic and physically half mongolid, could have known a male shift erasing the old I-E traces containing maybe a lot of Y-R1b and NOT Y-R1a???
    I thought before that R1b cradle was in eastern caspian regions too and not more western... and the 'gedrosia' component, abandoned in some more recent DODECAD simulations, seemed to me the possible confirmation of that (a first non yet I-E wave of Y-R1b males (and females akin to them?) along with some north 'gedrosian' component?... the non-I-E.an stage could have explained the 'basque' mystery (a north path for first R1b's, basque elements in Saami language..., later I-E.ization for the remnant of these tribes stayed in east-central Europe??? but other theories have some worth too: proto-basque = mesolithical language arrived in North from Pyrenees and surroundings after the LGM, and some apparently basque traces in neo-celtic languages which were not found among the first "classical" celtic languages (but I have almost no knowledge about old celtic grammar...)
    I confess my present trouble... the (even proved) movements of population don't tell us by themselves the direction of languages changes; I am still thinking I-E COULD Have been born in the Steppes, before later influence of more advanced cultures from south, either through Caucasus or through S-E-Caspian and Hindue Kush... three or four scenarios are still possible: the contacts Steppics <>S-Caspian and Harappa successors seem more progressive East the Caspian than brutal - languages changes depend on more than a condition -
    what is of some weight is the fact basque language seems having a metals vocabulary not I-E: acquired by sea (Mediter.) or by land (N-Caspian pre-I-E travel) ?!?
    I 'll speak later about the last Dienekes "communication" concerning the 2 folds admixture events (west-asian<>south asian) in the Indies: the links with kown traditional history is evident; for language change, it is not sure it will put a end to our pains!

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