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Thread: More evidence that the PIE R1b people originated in the Maykop culture

  1. #76
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.


    maybe this post is late but it contains some thoughts whic can be discussed here

    Questions of Indo-Europeans, Y-DNA R1b and R1a and others, and autosomals components 'west-asian' ('caucasian' and 'gedrosian'):

    Y-R1b in Europe seems having followed more than a way and known its greater «births boom» in west-central Europe and not in south-eastern Europe (perhaps am I wrong?) - I abandoned my first (old) believings concerning a birthplace in Iberia – yet I had some problems concerning today distributions of SNPs. Y-R1a seems the result of a relatively recent expansion with two poles, one in eastern Europe and one in southern Asia – Even if not precise, the most recent maps of global Y-R1a distribution fit very well with Baltic-Slavic cradles, Andronovo culture (partly turkicized and uralicized after?) and northern Indies/northern Pakistan (roughly): all linguisitically and historically indo-european lands and all of them in the satem category of language.
    About Y-R1b a majority agrees they could have been involved in non-I-E and in I-E cultures in past; and it is true the ones living in Caucasus/Anatolia could have known and I-E language AND caucasic (diverse?) languages, without speaking about dravidian. Some people think some of Y-R1b bearers were among bearers of the first I-E cultures and, backed on the appreciable presence of 'gedrosia' autosomals among N-W and Northern Europeans, think the first I-Eans came into Europe through Anatolia and Balkans (what is not stupid: always the «Danubian highway»), not with first agriculture but with subsequent waves of already metallurgists (maybe are they thinking in Varna Culture? or Tripolje-Cucuteni?).
    The problem is that even if Anatolia and Iran and Near-Eastern show a perceptible percentage of 'gedrosians', the Mediterranea people and Balkans people and even Slavic and Baltic people show very little of 'gedrosia' if some trace spite a globally high* percentage of 'west-asian'* component!... Even Cyprus is poor for 'gedrosia' component.
    *W-As: > 30% in S-E Europe, 20-38% in Italy, 7-13% in N-E and E slavic Europe
    at the contrary, even Basques and (then atlantic) Portugueses show more 'gedrosian' and Basques and Portugueses too show a 'northwest-european' (according to poolings) component than Italians or Greeks as a whole, even if these S-W people do not reach the percentages of N-W and N-Europe, by far... but the absolute percentages can abuse us, not the relative ones: when comparing weight of 'gedrosian' among the mix 'gedrosian'-'caucasian', the W-NW Europe show percentages over 70%, sometimes more than 95%, when S and SE Europe and NE Europe stay about 3-11%... the closer to the supposed southern way of intrance for 'gedrosian', the least of 'gedrosian'!!! the most evident scenario would be: a wave from N-Caspian to northern and western Europe until the Atlantic shores: the remainers in central Europe has been indo-europeanized later (principally Celts, Ligurians, pre-Germanics?)– the few remained in eastern and northeastern Europe were «erased» by subsequent Y-R1a Indo-Europeans (indo-europeanized too? >> satem?)
    I-Eans? But Basques are still a problem here: they are closer than Iberians to the N-W Europe as for autosomals as for Y-DNA even if not identical; and the Y-R1b shows more variants in N-Europe and baltic lands than in Iberia! The south baltic territories and central Europe show what could be the trail between old SNPs and new ones AS DO also western Mediterranea (Italy N and S, Valencia in eastern Spain): two ways? But the same language? The obsessional supposed presence of basque-like substrate in Saami language (we wait confirmation, it is true) could prove the North-R1b were maybe not I-E speakers... the more northern position of 'basque' component - # 'sardinian' - among 'mediterranean' could be a confirmation: it is true that it can be too the result of post-LGM expansion from Pyrenees about the 14000 BC but if we analyse more precisely we can say: 'basque' is a mix of 'west-mediterranean' (= first Mesolithic incursions from E-Mediterranea) and 'north-west-european' (= Paleo+Mesolithic folks = firstable hunters-gatherers, maybe not homogenous, to be broken later?) : whatsoever, their very very high percentages of Y-R1b (so males) and high enough (by comparison) of 'gedrosian' (autosomals) put them very close to Neo-Celts and Neo-Germanics of northern Europe: I see there a male mediated acculturation with elitist Y-DNA drift linked to a warriors colonization and I have difficulty to accept that Basques would have left their I-Ean language when irish or gaulish folks would have kept their I-E language... basque culture is principally patriarcal, more than current celtic cultures. I am even tempted to say among Y-R1b, L21 is maybe the less celtic one and reflect maybe with some other «minor» SNPs the descendants of Atlantic shores cultures (it is about 18% among spanish Basques, what is not neglictible) – if the result of celtized folks (between W-/NW- an central Europe) then it was associated more surely with an archaïc form of celtic language: gaëlic? All the way, 'gedrosian' did not reach Europe by South but by North, it is so evident*: I imagine a N-Caspian way from E-Iran/Pakistan > Kazakhstan > N.Caspian > S-Ukraina>...
    &: a difference between Neo-Celts and Basques: Neo-Celts show more B blood group than Germanics that show themselves more than Basques: maybe due to a bit more eastern females autosomals conserved among Celts (not illogical at all: the Basques were rather on the end part of thet travel and the northern rough lands were on the fringes too...)
    *: Basques show very little of Near-Eastern southern neolithical influence nor later metallurgists, less than any surrounding population - I cannot imagine a 'continuum' of 'gedrosian' population between Pakistan and South-Atlantic because I do not understand how a yet more eastern 'caucasian' population could have lately covered 'gedrosian' in Caucasus and Near-Eastern and erased it in S-E Europe, I know no historical fact going that way...BUT I can imagine a central steppic population (future Baltic-Slavic people) plus Finns could have erased 'gedrosian' in present days N-E Europe. Indo-Europeans Y-R1a then (battle axes culture and corded)
    Concerning language I have far more questions than answers:
    1- 'gedrosian' component in Caucasus seems more linked to East than to West ( not too surprising) but also to turkic speaking populations than to diverse caucasic speaking ones. It seems to me the first turkic or turkized tribes coming from East absorbed a perceptible part of 'gedrosia' (I-E or not) on their way to Anatolia (more through wives) before absorbing 'caucasus', either iranic speaking or dravidic speaking... but this distribution does not suit to anatolian or mesopotamian agricultors nor metallurgists in Balkans or S-E Mediterranea... 'sardinian' and 'caucasian' components suit better to these events -
    &: I should say distribution of 'caucasian' suits very well to propagation of agriculture in Europe, better than 'mediter' or 'sardinian', even if I suppose 'sardinian' component of eastern Mediterranea, after a first pre-neolithical wave into western Mediterranea, was involved in agriculture or herding, either by females only or by males+females pushed by a majority of 'caucasian' bearers – NO COMPLETELY PURE WAVES: also, some bearers of the 'caucasian' component took part in contacts with proto-I-Eans OR WERE the proto-I-Eans (I 'm not able to say for now, spite the last discoveries) – and later Greeks send some 'caucasian' component to Italy too.
    2- Basques have a not-I-Ean metals lexic And they are patriarcal! But someone can imagine that Basques had not a metals vocabulary first and that they loaned these words from an other, non I-Ean one like them: we have choice: iberic, helladic (both pre-I-Ean anatolian or caucasic)... I cannot answer.
    3- if not caucasic, the first language spoken by the supposed first emigration involving Y-R1b + ? and 'gedrosia' + ? could be a dravidic one, considering the very high density of 'gedrosia' among the Dravidian, and the possibility that Elam and perhaps Harappâ were dravidic speaking (language of a first wave of europoids in S-Indies, with agriculture?: see the Dienekes last?). But I have no mean to compare dravidic languages to basque for now.
    &: Harappâ Punjab (CN Pakistan/Indus): morts pliés dans jarres - 3000/1600 BC + metals (copper bronze) pacific??? supposed maybe pacific in center, and fortified (oups!) on boundaries?
    &&: 'gedrosia' is centered on Pakistan, not Indies as a whole – it could have been associated to Y-R > Y-R2 + Y-R1a ? And mt H? >#< 'caucasian' to Y-G? And to Y-J?
    &: in Saami, Y-R1a is present for the most among swedish Saami, but very weak among Finnland Saami AND Finns – (so, for me: R1a = I-E)
    Y-J and Y-E are present only among Kola Saami (russian imput?!!) - mt DNA among Saami shows very peculiar percentages but the phylogeny is west-eurasiatic for the most and not east-asiatic

    I wrote that in July and I red after some thoughts which were very close to the mines -
    I saw only later the map of Maciamo about upstream SNPs of Y-¨R1b – but I still ignore the precise East Caspian situation of today for Y-R1b and others Hgs – so this text is just to expose some thought... I am a bit surprised by the new pooling of DODECAD 14 abandoning the 'gedrosia' component, which could ruin down my all brain-masturbations!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    maybe this post is late but it contains some thoughts whic can be discussed here

    Questions of Indo-Europeans, Y-DNA R1b and R1a and others, and autosomals components 'west-asian' ('caucasian' and 'gedrosian'):
    Autosomal components are nonsense. According to me we shouldn’t pay to much attention to it. I mean they analysed the auDNA of Neanderthal. And he/she has got a very divers auDNA, from African to West Eurasian. He has much more North European auDNA component than West Asian Homo Sapiens and he has more West Asian component than North European Homo Sapiens. This means that IF proto-IEans Homo Sapiens came from West Asia, than this Neanderthal beast is ‘more’ Indo-European than European Homo Sapiens. And if proto-Indo-Europeans came from Europe (what is of course practically impossible with so much evidences that speak against it) than that would mean that the Neanderthal is more Indo-European that West Asian Homo Sapiens. : http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...e-for-download . So, auDNA components don't make lots of sense to me!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Autosomal components are nonsense. According to me we shouldn’t pay to much attention to it. I mean they analysed the auDNA of Neanderthal. And he/she has got a very divers auDNA, from African to West Eurasian. He has much more North European auDNA component than West Asian Homo Sapiens and he has more West Asian component than North European Homo Sapiens. This means that IF proto-IEans Homo Sapiens came from West Asia, than this Neanderthal beast is ‘more’ Indo-European than European Homo Sapiens. And if proto-Indo-Europeans came from Europe (what is of course practically impossible with so much evidences that speak against it) than that would mean that the Neanderthal is more Indo-European that West Asian Homo Sapiens. : http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...e-for-download . So, auDNA components don't make lots of sense to me!
    I shall answer you when I have understood your point of view - it does not seem too easy to do -
    autosomals are an approach which deserves being bettered but I find some value in them whatever the imperfection of these poolings principally geographic (of today what is more!)
    by the way, some genes sharings between far separated populations can EITHER being the result of recent immigrations OR the result of conservation of old archaic common genes...
    I 'm going to eat and drink, after I 'll think better
    have a good night

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Autosomal components are nonsense. According to me we shouldn’t pay to much attention to it. I mean they analysed the auDNA of Neanderthal. And he/she has got a very divers auDNA, from African to West Eurasian. He has much more North European auDNA component than West Asian Homo Sapiens and he has more West Asian component than North European Homo Sapiens. This means that IF proto-IEans Homo Sapiens came from West Asia, than this Neanderthal beast is ‘more’ Indo-European than European Homo Sapiens. And if proto-Indo-Europeans came from Europe (what is of course practically impossible with so much evidences that speak against it) than that would mean that the Neanderthal is more Indo-European that West Asian Homo Sapiens. : http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...e-for-download . So, auDNA components don't make lots of sense to me!
    you are deflecting the AuDna studies by mentioning the Neanderthals. The link you provided only tests the scientific marker of the neanderthals with the different projects created by people to get an AuDna.
    The AuDNa projects are a guide for people. They represent markers of only people tested, so the conclusion is , the more people test, the more accurate the results will be. If Africa tests are scarce, then you have minimal data. Gedmatch update data on a monthly basis, which is why running a test today for yourself will show different results than from a test in December 2012.
    A personnel tests would be done by BGA or similar companies. These never change, they are yours forever.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    All Modern Humans are Homo Sapiens. So Proto-Indo-Europeans must be Homo Sapiens and NOT Neanderthal at all, right?

    Neanderthal genome is a mix of everything (African + Eurasian). But according to Prof.McDonalds results Neanderthal beast is very close to White Russian and Polish population, LOL! How is it possible that White Russian and Polish Homo Sapien groups are closer to a NON-Homo Sapien Neanderthal beast than to other Homo Sapiens in Europe and elsewhere? This doesn’t make sense at all to me!

    Neanderthal auDNA







    So how for GOD sake a White Russian or Polish Homo Sapiens population can be closer to a Neanderthal beast than to French people if we look at this tree:


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    My conclusion is that aDNA components are nonsense or are in a very infantile phase, not accurate at all and need a further ACADEMIC examination. Still, the most reliable 'tool' we have to trace migrations are Y-DNA haplogroups, period!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    My conclusion is that aDNA components are nonsense or are in a very infantile phase, not accurate at all and need a further ACADEMIC examination. Still, the most reliable 'tool' we have to trace migrations are Y-DNA haplogroups, period!
    Genetic research has confirmed that some admixture took place.[102] The genomes of all non-Africans include portions that are of Neanderthal origin,[103][104] due to interbreeding between Neanderthals and the ancestors of Eurasians in Northern Africa or the Middle East prior to their spread. Rather than absorption of the Neanderthal population, this gene flow appears to have been of limited duration and limited extent. An estimated 1 to 4 percent of the DNA in Europeans and Asians (French, Chinese and Papua probands) is non-modern, and shared with ancient Neanderthal DNA rather than with Sub-Saharan Africans (Yoruba and San probands).[105] Nonetheless, more recent genetic studies seem to suggest that modern humans may have mated with "at least two groups" of ancient humans: Neanderthals and Denisovans.[106] Some researchers suggest admixture of 3.4%-7.9% in Eurasian populations, rejecting the hypothesis of ancestral population structure.[107]

    While modern humans share some nuclear DNA with the extinct Neanderthals, the two species do not share any mitochondrial DNA,[108] which in primates is always maternally transmitted. This observation has prompted the hypothesis that whereas female humans interbreeding with male Neanderthals were able to generate fertile offspring, the progeny of female Neanderthals who mated with male humans were either rare, absent or sterile.[109] However, some researchers have argued that there is evidence of possible interbreeding between female Neanderthals and male modern humans.[110][111]

    Neanderthals did not exist in Africa, they are from western europe to the urals, and the middle-east.

    Ydna of modern people is inaccurate to determine origins, too many people moved around. You do not expect that when 1 group moved from A to B , that they left nobody behind , do you!.
    The people left behind got absorbed my others moving into the area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    My conclusion is that aDNA components are nonsense or are in a very infantile phase, not accurate at all and need a further ACADEMIC examination. Still, the most reliable 'tool' we have to trace migrations are Y-DNA haplogroups, period!
    whats your paranoia ?

    It was very silly and stupid to give Doug this tests, he even stated he had to amend things as markers did not appear. What are you trying to deflect?

    Well, its strange. Its got far too many half-nocalls. If these are real it can’t
    be run. But likely they might in fact be simply homozygous since there are no homozygous
    locations listed. That’s easy to fix, and I did so.

    But the file did not run for some reason, despite having almost all the necessary locations, plus some.
    I fixed it by comparing to a German, and cutting locations not in the
    German’s file. Thjere were not enough missing ones to matter.

    And now it runs. I HAVE NO IDEA HOW WELL IT WORKED.

    For 999900FIX-autosomal-o36-results.csv.

    The automated computer results are as follows.
    Please read the attached .rtf file for an explanation of how to
    interpret all the data and plots. Both can be misleading without interpretation.

    Most likely fit is 5.8% (+- 0.9%) Africa (various subcontinents)
    and 61.6% (+- 0.9%) Africa (all Pygmy/Bushmen)
    which is 67.4% total Africa
    and 27.8% (+- 0.4%) Europe (various subcontinents)
    and 4.8% (+- 0.2%) S. Asia (all India)

    The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
    most likely at the top
    Bantu_Sout= 0.073 Biaka_Pygm= 0.598 English= 0.280 S_India= 0.049 or
    Bantu_Keny= 0.060 Biaka_Pygm= 0.614 English= 0.278 S_India= 0.048 or
    Bantu_Sout= 0.069 Biaka_Pygm= 0.600 French= 0.281 S_India= 0.050 or
    Yoruba= 0.048 Biaka_Pygm= 0.621 French= 0.281 S_India= 0.050 or
    Yoruba= 0.050 Biaka_Pygm= 0.621 English= 0.280 S_India= 0.049 or
    Mandenka= 0.047 Biaka_Pygm= 0.624 English= 0.279 S_India= 0.049 or
    Mandenka= 0.045 Biaka_Pygm= 0.624 French= 0.281 S_India= 0.051 or
    Bantu_Keny= 0.060 Biaka_Pygm= 0.614 Germany= 0.277 S_India= 0.048 or
    Maasai= 0.062 Biaka_Pygm= 0.623 Germany= 0.269 S_India= 0.046 or
    Maasai= 0.067 Biaka_Pygm= 0.620 Irish= 0.270 S_India= 0.044

    my corresponding result to 23andme’s “Ancestry Composition” gives

    Euro 0.2571 Mideast 0.0404 S. Asia 0.0261 Native American 0.0008 Sub-Saharan 0.6611 E. Asia 0.0145


    yet a third method gives

    Euro 0.2737 Mideast -0.0355 S. Asia 0.0042 Native American -0.0004 sub-Saharan 0.7390 E. Asia -0.0181 Oceania 0.0372 Siberia -0.0113

    I’m also including an unusual vertical bar plot giving a fit to ALL populations at the
    same time, which gives the above line (“third”).

    I have zero idea of whether this result is meaningful or not!!!

    Doug McDonald


    Clearly the people who gave Doug this need to have some tests done on themselves ( mental tests )

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    So my question is: "are White Russians Homo Sapiens or Neanderthal (who is practically a mix of African and Eurasian aDNA) ?"

    I'm aware that most Homo Sapiens have some Neanderthal DNA in them to some degree. Let say that White Russian population has the most Neanderthal DNA of all modern humans in them. Because Neanderthal non-human BEAST is closest to White Russian population and actually due to a fact that White Russians are CLOSER to Neanderthal THAN to West Europeans (French, Englishetc.).

    Does this fact make then White Russians Neanderthal species and not Homo Sapiens at all? According to current knowledge of aDNA White Russians are closer to Neanderthal species than to French, English Homo Sapien species. According to aDNA White Russians ARE Neanderthal !!! LMAO, this doesn't make any sense to me! AuDNA is nothing but a big JOKE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    So my question is: "are White Russians Homo Sapiens or Neanderthal (who is practically a mix of African and Eurasian aDNA) ?"I'm aware that most Homo Sapiens have some Neanderthal DNA in them to some degree. Let say that White Russian population has the most Neanderthal DNA of all modern humans in them. Because Neanderthal non-human BEAST is closest to White Russian population and actually due to a fact that White Russians are CLOSER to Neanderthal THAN to West Europeans (French, Englishetc.). Does this fact make then White Russians Neanderthal species and not Homo Sapiens at all? According to current knowledge of aDNA White Russians are closer to Neanderthal species than to French, English Homo Sapien species. According to aDNA White Russians ARE Neanderthal !!! LMAO, this doesn't make any sense to me! AuDNA is nothing but a big JOKE!
    I had proposed in a thread the new nomenclature about our specie. It is Homo Heidelberg sapiensis. Which non African people have a bit of Homo Heidelberg neandertalensis. That is two subspecies of Homo heidelberg, even could be less separate than subspecies.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Easy now little fella... talk like this is going to force me to unwrap my new R1b theory that revolves around their surprising lack of autosomal contribution to Northern Europe. I haven't worked all the kinks out yet, so don't get me too riled up or I will have to drop this little dandy earlier than I wanted. And don't forget Goga, Hilter wasn't a member of either of the more common macro European lineages (R and I).

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    That was directed toward Goga, not you Ziober. You popped in before my comment posted. Sorry for the confusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    So my question is: "are White Russians Homo Sapiens or Neanderthal (who is practically a mix of African and Eurasian aDNA) ?"

    I'm aware that most Homo Sapiens have some Neanderthal DNA in them to some degree. Let say that White Russian population has the most Neanderthal DNA of all modern humans in them. Because Neanderthal non-human BEAST is closest to White Russian population and actually due to a fact that White Russians are CLOSER to Neanderthal THAN to West Europeans (French, Englishetc.).

    Does this fact make then White Russians Neanderthal species and not Homo Sapiens at all? According to current knowledge of aDNA White Russians are closer to Neanderthal species than to French, English Homo Sapien species. According to aDNA White Russians ARE Neanderthal !!! LMAO, this doesn't make any sense to me! AuDNA is nothing but a big JOKE!
    You fail to understand, the paper presented to Doug is irrelevant, the data is irrelevant due to the fact that he had to make adjustments. He was never told it was Neanderthal data. If he knew it was Neanderthal he never would have done the test. It was a trick by some paranoia groups in society that finally realise that genetics will DESTROY THE BULL SHIT THEY WHERE TOLD IN SCHOOL. In 10 years ( my guess) a lot of people will be very annoyed that this truth came out via genetic testing.

    So, you questions cannot be answered because the data supplied is useless

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    You fail to understand, the paper presented to Doug is irrelevant, the data is irrelevant due to the fact that he had to make adjustments. He was never told it was Neanderthal data. If he knew it was Neanderthal he never would have done the test. It was a trick by some paranoia groups in society that finally realise that genetics will DESTROY THE BULL SHIT THEY WHERE TOLD IN SCHOOL. In 10 years ( my guess) a lot of people will be very annoyed that this truth came out via genetic testing.

    So, you questions cannot be answered because the data supplied is useless
    No, you fail to understand that this was just an example. It's not about Doug. All other aDNA data on this Neanderthal beast show an African-Eurasian Homo Sapiens mix.

    According to me the DNA of this Neanderthal beast exposed that we can't trust aDNA components. They’re all way to manipulated and tweaked with lies, just like we can see here. We can’t trust aDNA components, like I said they're full of lies, nonsense or are in a very infantile phase, not accurate at all and need afurther ACADEMIC examination.

    So at this moment it is impossible to find truth with this tool. Why wasting time and money on this NONSENSE? Somebody is really getting very rich because of this crap. The most reliable genetic tool at this moment is still Y-DNA. And all 'professional' genetics use Y-DNA tool.

    And to come back again on this topic. We must a) first find out which Y-DNA haplogroups belonged to the proto-Indo-Europeans. And b) where those haplogroups are originally from. If we are able to answer this 2 questions we will find out the true Indo-European URHEIMAT. And I’m 100% sure it’s not in the Eurasians steppes (north of the Caspian Sea) but somewhere in the neighborhood south of the Caspian Sea, where R1b is from…

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    I had proposed in a thread the new nomenclature about our specie. It is Homo Heidelberg sapiensis. Which non African people have a bit of Homo Heidelberg neandertalensis. That is two subspecies of Homo heidelberg, even could be less separate than subspecies.
    LOL, why Heidelberg? If modern Eurasians have this Neanderthal DNA to some degree than so do Africans, because there was actually a BACKmigration into Africa after Neanderthal beasts disappeared from this planet.

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    I still don’t understand why people doubt about PIE homeland?!


    1. It has been proven many times and also many times verified that there was actually a migration from West Asia / South Caucasus into North Caucasus and the Eurasian Steppes. Not so long time ago.

    2. To be honest I'm not 100% sure about this, but hey many people believe that European R1b originally came from the Iranian Plateau and entered Europe almost at the same time as the first fact above.


    How many facts do we need? According to me the case is closed!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    No, you fail to understand that this was just an example. It's not about Doug. All other aDNA data on this Neanderthal beast show an African-Eurasian Homo Sapiens mix.

    According to me the DNA of this Neanderthal beast exposed that we can't trust aDNA components. They’re all way to manipulated and tweaked with lies, just like we can see here. We can’t trust aDNA components, like I said they're full of lies, nonsense or are in a very infantile phase, not accurate at all and need afurther ACADEMIC examination.

    So at this moment it is impossible to find truth with this tool. Why wasting time and money on this NONSENSE? Somebody is really getting very rich because of this crap. The most reliable genetic tool at this moment is still Y-DNA. And all 'professional' genetics use Y-DNA tool.

    And to come back again on this topic. We must a) first find out which Y-DNA haplogroups belonged to the proto-Indo-Europeans. And b) where those haplogroups are originally from. If we are able to answer this 2 questions we will find out the true Indo-European URHEIMAT. And I’m 100% sure it’s not in the Eurasians steppes (north of the Caspian Sea) but somewhere in the neighborhood south of the Caspian Sea, where R1b is from…
    AuDna which is in Gedmatch is manipulated to a degree. it depends on the integrity of the maker. harappaworld seem to concentrate on the west-asian area. MDLP on the lithaunian. Eurogenes on polish/czech areas and dodecad unsure.

    There was no neaderthal in Africa.why talk about it?

    I agree the west -asian scenario you present is correct , the polish genetics deny this. east side of the caspian sea /Uzbekistan is what I believe is the place where most haplotypes emerged from. Well All K (ydna) group and markers which came out of K at least

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    maybe this post is late but it contains some thoughts whic can be discussed here

    Questions of Indo-Europeans, Y-DNA R1b and R1a and others, and autosomals components 'west-asian' ('caucasian' and 'gedrosian'):

    Y-R1b in Europe seems having followed more than a way and known its greater «births boom» in west-central Europe and not in south-eastern Europe (perhaps am I wrong?) - I abandoned my first (old) believings concerning a birthplace in Iberia – yet I had some problems concerning today distributions of SNPs. Y-R1a seems the result of a relatively recent expansion with two poles, one in eastern Europe and one in southern Asia – Even if not precise, the most recent maps of global Y-R1a distribution fit very well with Baltic-Slavic cradles, Andronovo culture (partly turkicized and uralicized after?) and northern Indies/northern Pakistan (roughly): all linguisitically and historically indo-european lands and all of them in the satem category of language.
    About Y-R1b a majority agrees they could have been involved in non-I-E and in I-E cultures in past; and it is true the ones living in Caucasus/Anatolia could have known and I-E language AND caucasic (diverse?) languages, without speaking about dravidian. Some people think some of Y-R1b bearers were among bearers of the first I-E cultures and, backed on the appreciable presence of 'gedrosia' autosomals among N-W and Northern Europeans, think the first I-Eans came into Europe through Anatolia and Balkans (what is not stupid: always the «Danubian highway»), not with first agriculture but with subsequent waves of already metallurgists (maybe are they thinking in Varna Culture? or Tripolje-Cucuteni?).
    The problem is that even if Anatolia and Iran and Near-Eastern show a perceptible percentage of 'gedrosians', the Mediterranea people and Balkans people and even Slavic and Baltic people show very little of 'gedrosia' if some trace spite a globally high* percentage of 'west-asian'* component!... Even Cyprus is poor for 'gedrosia' component.
    *W-As: > 30% in S-E Europe, 20-38% in Italy, 7-13% in N-E and E slavic Europe
    at the contrary, even Basques and (then atlantic) Portugueses show more 'gedrosian' and Basques and Portugueses too show a 'northwest-european' (according to poolings) component than Italians or Greeks as a whole, even if these S-W people do not reach the percentages of N-W and N-Europe, by far... but the absolute percentages can abuse us, not the relative ones: when comparing weight of 'gedrosian' among the mix 'gedrosian'-'caucasian', the W-NW Europe show percentages over 70%, sometimes more than 95%, when S and SE Europe and NE Europe stay about 3-11%... the closer to the supposed southern way of intrance for 'gedrosian', the least of 'gedrosian'!!! the most evident scenario would be: a wave from N-Caspian to northern and western Europe until the Atlantic shores: the remainers in central Europe has been indo-europeanized later (principally Celts, Ligurians, pre-Germanics?)– the few remained in eastern and northeastern Europe were «erased» by subsequent Y-R1a Indo-Europeans (indo-europeanized too? >> satem?)
    I-Eans? But Basques are still a problem here: they are closer than Iberians to the N-W Europe as for autosomals as for Y-DNA even if not identical; and the Y-R1b shows more variants in N-Europe and baltic lands than in Iberia! The south baltic territories and central Europe show what could be the trail between old SNPs and new ones AS DO also western Mediterranea (Italy N and S, Valencia in eastern Spain): two ways? But the same language? The obsessional supposed presence of basque-like substrate in Saami language (we wait confirmation, it is true) could prove the North-R1b were maybe not I-E speakers... the more northern position of 'basque' component - # 'sardinian' - among 'mediterranean' could be a confirmation: it is true that it can be too the result of post-LGM expansion from Pyrenees about the 14000 BC but if we analyse more precisely we can say: 'basque' is a mix of 'west-mediterranean' (= first Mesolithic incursions from E-Mediterranea) and 'north-west-european' (= Paleo+Mesolithic folks = firstable hunters-gatherers, maybe not homogenous, to be broken later?) : whatsoever, their very very high percentages of Y-R1b (so males) and high enough (by comparison) of 'gedrosian' (autosomals) put them very close to Neo-Celts and Neo-Germanics of northern Europe: I see there a male mediated acculturation with elitist Y-DNA drift linked to a warriors colonization and I have difficulty to accept that Basques would have left their I-Ean language when irish or gaulish folks would have kept their I-E language... basque culture is principally patriarcal, more than current celtic cultures. I am even tempted to say among Y-R1b, L21 is maybe the less celtic one and reflect maybe with some other «minor» SNPs the descendants of Atlantic shores cultures (it is about 18% among spanish Basques, what is not neglictible) – if the result of celtized folks (between W-/NW- an central Europe) then it was associated more surely with an archaïc form of celtic language: gaëlic? All the way, 'gedrosian' did not reach Europe by South but by North, it is so evident*: I imagine a N-Caspian way from E-Iran/Pakistan > Kazakhstan > N.Caspian > S-Ukraina>...
    &: a difference between Neo-Celts and Basques: Neo-Celts show more B blood group than Germanics that show themselves more than Basques: maybe due to a bit more eastern females autosomals conserved among Celts (not illogical at all: the Basques were rather on the end part of thet travel and the northern rough lands were on the fringes too...)
    *: Basques show very little of Near-Eastern southern neolithical influence nor later metallurgists, less than any surrounding population - I cannot imagine a 'continuum' of 'gedrosian' population between Pakistan and South-Atlantic because I do not understand how a yet more eastern 'caucasian' population could have lately covered 'gedrosian' in Caucasus and Near-Eastern and erased it in S-E Europe, I know no historical fact going that way...BUT I can imagine a central steppic population (future Baltic-Slavic people) plus Finns could have erased 'gedrosian' in present days N-E Europe. Indo-Europeans Y-R1a then (battle axes culture and corded)
    Concerning language I have far more questions than answers:
    1- 'gedrosian' component in Caucasus seems more linked to East than to West ( not too surprising) but also to turkic speaking populations than to diverse caucasic speaking ones. It seems to me the first turkic or turkized tribes coming from East absorbed a perceptible part of 'gedrosia' (I-E or not) on their way to Anatolia (more through wives) before absorbing 'caucasus', either iranic speaking or dravidic speaking... but this distribution does not suit to anatolian or mesopotamian agricultors nor metallurgists in Balkans or S-E Mediterranea... 'sardinian' and 'caucasian' components suit better to these events -
    &: I should say distribution of 'caucasian' suits very well to propagation of agriculture in Europe, better than 'mediter' or 'sardinian', even if I suppose 'sardinian' component of eastern Mediterranea, after a first pre-neolithical wave into western Mediterranea, was involved in agriculture or herding, either by females only or by males+females pushed by a majority of 'caucasian' bearers – NO COMPLETELY PURE WAVES: also, some bearers of the 'caucasian' component took part in contacts with proto-I-Eans OR WERE the proto-I-Eans (I 'm not able to say for now, spite the last discoveries) – and later Greeks send some 'caucasian' component to Italy too.
    2- Basques have a not-I-Ean metals lexic And they are patriarcal! But someone can imagine that Basques had not a metals vocabulary first and that they loaned these words from an other, non I-Ean one like them: we have choice: iberic, helladic (both pre-I-Ean anatolian or caucasic)... I cannot answer.
    3- if not caucasic, the first language spoken by the supposed first emigration involving Y-R1b + ? and 'gedrosia' + ? could be a dravidic one, considering the very high density of 'gedrosia' among the Dravidian, and the possibility that Elam and perhaps Harappâ were dravidic speaking (language of a first wave of europoids in S-Indies, with agriculture?: see the Dienekes last?). But I have no mean to compare dravidic languages to basque for now.
    &: Harappâ Punjab (CN Pakistan/Indus): morts pliés dans jarres - 3000/1600 BC + metals (copper bronze) pacific??? supposed maybe pacific in center, and fortified (oups!) on boundaries?
    &&: 'gedrosia' is centered on Pakistan, not Indies as a whole – it could have been associated to Y-R > Y-R2 + Y-R1a ? And mt H? >#< 'caucasian' to Y-G? And to Y-J?
    &: in Saami, Y-R1a is present for the most among swedish Saami, but very weak among Finnland Saami AND Finns – (so, for me: R1a = I-E)
    Y-J and Y-E are present only among Kola Saami (russian imput?!!) - mt DNA among Saami shows very peculiar percentages but the phylogeny is west-eurasiatic for the most and not east-asiatic

    I wrote that in July and I red after some thoughts which were very close to the mines -
    I saw only later the map of Maciamo about upstream SNPs of Y-¨R1b – but I still ignore the precise East Caspian situation of today for Y-R1b and others Hgs – so this text is just to expose some thought... I am a bit surprised by the new pooling of DODECAD 14 abandoning the 'gedrosia' component, which could ruin down my all brain-masturbations!
    Wow, I am very amazing by your work and processing all this information as we speak. I wish you the best of luck. :)

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    [QUOTE=Goga;413632]All Modern Humans are Homo Sapiens. So Proto-Indo-Europeans must be Homo Sapiens and NOT Neanderthal at all, right?

    Neanderthal genome is a mix of everything (African + Eurasian). But according to Prof.McDonalds results Neanderthal beast is very close to White Russian and Polish population, LOL! How is it possible that White Russian and Polish Homo Sapien groups are closer to a NON-Homo Sapien Neanderthal beast than to other Homo Sapiens in Europe and elsewhere? This doesn’t make sense at all to me!

    Neanderthal auDNA



    before undergo a nerves break I would be happy Goga if you provided me the origin of the graph NEANDERTHAL is closer to Polishmen and Bela-Russians in it, to know the reasoning of the persons who made this graph and to know what genetic stuff (global, partial...) support these results. Thanks beforehand

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    I don't know why you would think r1a peoples just totally adopted basically the I.E culture from R1b people. Most likely they both developed from their burial techniques, bronze working and languages from an earlier source where r1b and r1a were already together or the PIE languages developed when they both met north of the caucus.. Your statement seems a little biased and nationalist to call R1b(descendants mainly in western Europe) were the Dominant and more advanced people as compared to the R1a individuals(descendants in eastern Eruope). Also your citing of language as evidence that PIE languages came from r1b doesn't make much sense considering Languages in Eastern Europe, Slavic-Baltic, Greek are associated with R1a and are much closer to PIE than western European languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    All Modern Humans are Homo Sapiens. So Proto-Indo-Europeans must be Homo Sapiens and NOT Neanderthal at all, right?

    Neanderthal genome is a mix of everything (African + Eurasian). But according to Prof.McDonalds results Neanderthal beast is very close to White Russian and Polish population, LOL! How is it possible that White Russian and Polish Homo Sapien groups are closer to a NON-Homo Sapien Neanderthal beast than to other Homo Sapiens in Europe and elsewhere? This doesn’t make sense at all to me!

    Neanderthal auDNA







    So how for GOD sake a White Russian or Polish Homo Sapiens population can be closer to a Neanderthal beast than to French people if we look at this tree:

    It's theoretically possible someone could have 100% neanderthal DNA besides their mtDNA and y-DNA marker. Especially due to natural selection. For example some y-dna makes for more boys and some for more girls, guess which one will come to dominate over time?

    Interestingly people point this out a lot when it comes to talking about race, but when talking about neanderthals they use it to justify the view neanderthals became totally extinct. Y-DNA is just one small part of your DNA, but neanderthal is the root of a clade for other parts of your DNA, meaning everyone has the neanderthal version or a sub version so far as we can tell.

    I suspect if we ever get a chance to recover rhodiensis y-DNA we'll find it's "extinct" like neanderthal and denisova.

    But I don't think you can go too crazy over these sort of comparison yet, he is probably just looking at a couple markers like most population studies, which is almost meaningless except to find some comparisons and try and guess migrations (and many guesses I see seem to be taken to mean the opposite of what makes nay sense).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noman View Post
    It's theoretically possible someone could have 100% neanderthal DNA besides their mtDNA and y-DNA marker. Especially due to natural selection. For example some y-dna makes for more boys and some for more girls, guess which one will come to dominate over time?

    Interestingly people point this out a lot when it comes to talking about race, but when talking about neanderthals they use it to justify the view neanderthals became totally extinct. Y-DNA is just one small part of your DNA, but neanderthal is the root of a clade for other parts of your DNA, meaning everyone has the neanderthal version or a sub version so far as we can tell.

    I suspect if we ever get a chance to recover rhodiensis y-DNA we'll find it's "extinct" like neanderthal and denisova.

    But I don't think you can go too crazy over these sort of comparison yet, he is probably just looking at a couple markers like most population studies, which is almost meaningless except to find some comparisons and try and guess migrations (and many guesses I see seem to be taken to mean the opposite of what makes nay sense).
    I understand but the thing is, but how much Neanderthal DNA did the Ancient Celts and Slavs pick up?

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    [QUOTE=MOESAN;413654]
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    All Modern Humans are Homo Sapiens. So Proto-Indo-Europeans must be Homo Sapiens and NOT Neanderthal at all, right?

    Neanderthal genome is a mix of everything (African + Eurasian). But according to Prof.McDonalds results Neanderthal beast is very close to White Russian and Polish population, LOL! How is it possible that White Russian and Polish Homo Sapien groups are closer to a NON-Homo Sapien Neanderthal beast than to other Homo Sapiens in Europe and elsewhere? This doesn’t make sense at all to me!

    Neanderthal auDNA



    before undergo a nerves break I would be happy Goga if you provided me the origin of the graph NEANDERTHAL is closer to Polishmen and Bela-Russians in it, to know the reasoning of the persons who made this graph and to know what genetic stuff (global, partial...) support these results. Thanks beforehand
    I agree, I find that we need more proof of the Neanderthal DNA to be relative to this study.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    I understand but the thing is, but how much Neanderthal DNA did the Ancient Celts and Slavs pick up?
    I would estimate it to be the exact same as the number of negative blood types in the population. Obviously people with negative blood type aren't 100% neanderthal but the average should be about right.

    New estimates have gone from 1-4% up to up to 8% for europeans so that seems right. Keep in mind that some of the neanderthal genes, even africans will have. We just don't know which are which so they are basically making the assumption there's no neanderthal dna in black africans, what is there probably mostly comes from ancient ancestors (some of this dna is shared by chimps and gorillas) but I also expect due to natural selection you will get some to fix in populations of every corner of the world.

    So you can't tell for sure but it keeps climbing upwards.

    And what this high percentage means is basically there was no extinction at all. This is not a one time event, they just wholly interbred into modern people. If it was really a one time thing or an absorbtion in middle east it would have faded out quickly. Which should be obvious but somehow gets ignored.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noman View Post
    I would estimate it to be the exact same as the number of negative blood types in the population. Obviously people with negative blood type aren't 100% neanderthal but the average should be about right.

    New estimates have gone from 1-4% up to up to 8% for europeans so that seems right. Keep in mind that some of the neanderthal genes, even africans will have. We just don't know which are which so they are basically making the assumption there's no neanderthal dna in black africans, what is there probably mostly comes from ancient ancestors (some of this dna is shared by chimps and gorillas) but I also expect due to natural selection you will get some to fix in populations of every corner of the world.

    So you can't tell for sure but it keeps climbing upwards.

    And what this high percentage means is basically there was no extinction at all. This is not a one time event, they just wholly interbred into modern people. If it was really a one time thing or an absorbtion in middle east it would have faded out quickly. Which should be obvious but somehow gets ignored.
    I heard people with Negative blood types are aliens. One of my friends has it, and hes weird. lol

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