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Thread: The Neolithic revolution and haplogroups J1,J2,E3b,G2 and T.

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    The Neolithic revolution and haplogroups J1,J2,E3b,G2 and T.

    I was recently wondering why the agricultural revolution that took place in the Middle East during the Neolithic period propelled certain "middle eastern" markers further to success into Europe than it did others. We all know that E3b arrived from North Africa to the Balkans (southeastern Europe) and at lower % in Iberia and Sicily/Sardinia/Italy. Some E3b also migrated to the Levantine region of the Middle East. E3b along with J2, where the most successfull Neolithic markers in terms of colonizing Mediterranean Europe. J2 had much distance to travel, from the fringes of the mesopotamian world (its homeland, and where it still dominates today) all the way to parts of southeastern Europe and as far as Iberia at lower % than Italy/Greece and their respective islands, of course (excluding Sardinia.) J2-M172 seems to have had very little genetic impact in North Africa; it is hardly present there. J1-M267, the more "Semitic", "southern middle eastern" subclade of J that dominates Arabia proper, seems to have left very scarce genetic trails/impact on Europe, insignificant impact in fact. But during the Middle Ages, J1 men, and the Islam they brought with them, crossed all of North Africa with their camels, affecting North Africa at about the same frequencies that J2 earlier ended up affecting Europe. J1 affects some 25% of Algerians, 10-20% Moroccans, 20-30% Tunisians, 15-20% Egyptians etc. blood from the Arabian peninsula. As for hg G, it seems to have originated farther out, more towards Central Asia, on the fringes of central Iran, from where it would later migrate to the Caucasus from where the P15 lineage would shoot through turkey, Greece, Italy, and to northern Sardinia where it would father Nuraghic culture. G, G2 in particular, affects Europeans at very low frequencies, with a high of 15-20% in Sardinia , 15% in southern Italy (9% on a national level) and some 8% of Greeks. This may be because G originated much farther out in the first place, and even then was overwhelmed by agriculturalists in the Middle East, that out competed hg G2 and T hunter-gatherers. Same for the M70 lineage, it probably originated somewhere near Afghanistan, Tajikistan and extreme eastern Iran, not directly in Mesopotamia, but farther out near Central Asia and the Pamir knot region; from there it infiltrated the Middle East/north Africa ( Egypt and Horn of Africa in particular). From the Middle East, it infiltrated Europe at very low percentages, probably due to its "origin point" distance to Europe.
    Last edited by adamo; 23-05-13 at 16:27.

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    as stated by DNAtribes to me for how my line evolved from .........for whats its worth for me ??

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2013...-caucasus.html

    A possible T HG move north of the caucasus
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    so what does that mean?

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    Interesting frequencies of haplogroup T in the Middle East are 21% of Jordanians, 22% of Iraqi jews, 18% of Kurdish Jews, 50% of Tajiks in Afghanistan's logar province (2 out of 4 samples). 20% of men from Sasun turkey, 13,5% of Zoroastrians from Kerman, Iran, 12.6% of bakhtiari/Lurs from Izeh Iran, 11.5% of historical southwest Armenians, 11% of men from Abu Dhabi ( United Arab Emirates), 10% of Assyrians from West Azerbaijan province ( it is in IRAN, not Azerbaijan itself. The city of Urmia is in this province.) and 10% of Persian Muslims from Shiraz, iran (other studies listed a similar place as I mentioned but with slightly lower or higher frequencies, different study, different results.) not to mention 28% of lezgins in Dagestan, 22% of Ossetians in Zamankul, 14% of Iranians in Isfahan, 13% of Ossetians in Zil'ga, 13% of Kurmanji Kurds from eastern turkey, and 12% of Palestinians in Palestine.

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    @ Adamo,

    I think we might have a theme here,

    I mean comparing the road of E Hg and T HG.
    they both meet with considering frequencies in Palestine/wider Levant,
    but they don't meet in such degree of Frequencies in Balkans (Italy?)
    considering the Sea peoples, what do you believe?

    my first thought is that T enter different time in Asia, or another road.

    since i declare ignorant, I ask could T enter with Islamic expansion?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    @ Adamo,

    I think we might have a theme here,

    I mean comparing the road of E Hg and T HG.
    they both meet with considering frequencies in Palestine/wider Levant,
    but they don't meet in such degree of Frequencies in Balkans (Italy?)
    considering the Sea peoples, what do you believe?

    my first thought is that T enter different time in Asia, or another road.

    since i declare ignorant, I ask could T enter with Islamic expansion?
    The epicenter of T ( M184 ) was the ancient persian capital of Susa, they where either elamites, sumerians or Uzuks, the ones that stayed, later became persians, the others went-
    1 -east into Tajikistan, and Caspian areas and returned to merge with Armenians, kurds and Caucasus people like dagestans, lezkins, pontic greeks and azeri.
    and
    2 -into Saudi Arabia, Levant, Egypt and east africa.

    others went north to the baltic sea and other through the northern Balkans to central europe and France. Anyone who in ancient times was associated with the black sea got the most T
    The ancient Italians etruscans, sabines etc are associated with the black sea

    The north african , south Italy and iberian areas was brought by the phoenicians

    The T ydna, USA president Thomas Jefferson routes have been from saudi arabia to egypt , then by boat to iberia, then wales and then USA

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    The epicenter of T ( M184 ) was the ancient persian capital of Susa, they where either elamites, sumerians or Uzuks, the ones that stayed, later became persians, the others went-
    1 -east into Tajikistan, and Caspian areas and returned to merge with Armenians, kurds and Caucasus people like dagestans, lezkins, pontic greeks and azeri.
    and
    2 -into Saudi Arabia, Levant, Egypt and east africa.

    others went north to the baltic sea and other through the northern Balkans to central europe and France. Anyone who in ancient times was associated with the black sea got the most T
    The ancient Italians etruscans, sabines etc are associated with the black sea

    The north african , south Italy and iberian areas was brought by the phoenicians

    The T ydna, USA president Thomas Jefferson routes have been from saudi arabia to egypt , then by boat to iberia, then wales and then USA
    so T went from Central Asia to Erythraia (Abyssinia) and not the oposite?

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    T originated in the Middle East/ Central Asia, from there it migrated to Egypt and then from Egypt it got to the Horn of Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    so T went from Central Asia to Erythraia (Abyssinia) and not the oposite?
    yes

    T is known as west-asian marker which means basically old persia

    south-west asian marker is arabia

    east african marker is eritea, somalia, tanzania, kenya etc

    central asia marker is kazakstan, tajikstan, uzbekistan etc

    majority of europeans have west-asian marker in their admixture

    I think India is south-asian marker ...I am unsure

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    My theory is that this is more of a sign of how readily they mixed with natives while spreading out. There may not even be less T contribution than G for example, but if they mixed in more readily the markers might eventually be mostly absorbed. This would depend a lot on their culture and the state of the places they migrated to.

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    Can anyone supply me the link which has data that T y-dna is 5% in central France as per Maciano's ydna of countries
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    @adamo

    Unsure if you have seen link below, but the 21% of T from the link does not match anything in regards to me, that is, DYS markers ............seems like northern levant and eastern turkey areas.

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...1192a.html#top

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    yes

    T is known as west-asian marker which means basically old persia

    south-west asian marker is arabia

    east african marker is eritea, somalia, tanzania, kenya etc

    central asia marker is kazakstan, tajikstan, uzbekistan etc

    majority of europeans have west-asian marker in their admixture

    I think India is south-asian marker ...I am unsure
    What about the Haplogroup T minority in North and Northwestern Europe? Was there some sort of trade or was it a different marker? Even Thomas Jefferson ended up with this Haplogroup after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    What about the Haplogroup T minority in North and Northwestern Europe? Was there some sort of trade or was it a different marker? Even Thomas Jefferson ended up with this Haplogroup after all.
    as far as i know, Jefferson, came from north egypt to Iberia to Wales..............search for Drake in rootsweb, they have far more information.

    Faux states that other T ( T1b ) arrived in Britain, Orkney islands and faroe islands via the vikings, the vikings picked up either slaves from estonia or along the volga river.

    There is also a basal T1b in southern Germany according to Nat Geno 2.0 ...about 20%. these can clearly travel along the Rhine river to Netherlands and then to Britain

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    So it has been confirmed; the non-indo-European Tartessians were in fact Phoenician/Carthaginian colonizers, the same responsible for foundation of Huelva, Gadir, Tartessos, Onuba, Malaka, sexi, carmona, abdaia, ebusos, Panormus, Motya etc. and all other places where hg T is found at a higher frequency.

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    I would go as far as to link T with the Phoenicians of Lebanon , they migrated from the Persian gulf (legend says somewhere near Bahrain) towards the Levantine coast in pre-history and were a branch among the Caananites (Moabites, ammonites, Edomites, Jews, Phoenicians). These Caananites were the first inhabitants of the levant region. When the Phoenicians/Carthaginians migrated to Chios, Crete, coastal Egypt, parts of Sardinia, western Sicily, northern Corsica, Tunisia, Algeria, morocco, southern/eastern Spain, they would have brought along a small fraction of this T element with them, as is directly seen in the inflated European T frequencies found near sites of ancient Phoenician/Carthaginian colonization.
    Last edited by adamo; 25-12-13 at 05:25.

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    Genographic 2.0 has linked hg T to both Kebaran culture (Lebanon,Jordan,Palestine,northern Israel, southern Syria) named after Kebaran cave (central Israel) and the preceding Emirian culture (same general regions) named for it's Emireh points, one of the main ones having been found at Meyrouba 6 (central Lebanon); a piece of Lebanese pre-history. It's interesting to look at both these cultures on google images, they are both linked to the coastal Levant. Apparently, EARLY members of T-M70 are hunter gatherers linked to the initial spread of Kebaran culture some 18,000-12,500 years ago, a piece of Levantine prehistory. This would also explain it's high presence among Jordanians (21%) (Ammonites, Edomites?) Mizrahim Jewish diaspora groups (Kurdish Jews, Iraqi Jews, Iranian Jews) and the Phoenicians of Lebanon, a Caananite people that spread it to North African and Mediterranean European shores. It has also been established that T1a1* variants in Europe are likely reflective of more ancient Neolithic gene flow (possibly Phoenician colonization) whereas T1b variants are more likely linked to Jews proper, as seen in the case of Tras-O-Montes Portuguese Jews (15% T-M70, all of it belonging to younger T2 branches.)

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    Hg E-M35.1 has also been linked to the Levantine kebaran culture. Basically I am postulating an ancient Phoenician (Lebanon) origin for most T1a1* variants, along with a few Jewish ones as well, whereas T1b (T2) men in Europe are more recent Jewish arrivals in the past 1000 years (Middle Ages.) this is in regards to European and north-African T men.
    Last edited by adamo; 25-12-13 at 05:01.

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    The Levantine link also makes sense because M70+ is confirmed to have arisen in west Asia; turkey to Iran maximum extent and all Arabia in the south; also Levantine M70 haplotypes are the oldest. T is some 10,000 years older in turkey and Egypt than in Oman for example. I have a feeling T played a much bigger role in Levantine genetics and among the Phoenicians before the E3b/J people's arrived, to me M70+ is a piece of Levantine pre-history, at least that's what the age diversity indicates. The pre-Semitic civilizations of west Asia can be explained in part by T, but something changed across the levant within the past 5,000 or so years, leaving T relics of Phoenician colonization across parts of Mediterranean Europe/ north-Africa and a few isolated pockets such as ancient Elamite territory.

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    From what I heard the Tartessians where Phoenicians proper whereas the succeeding Turdetanians were later Carthaginians of north-west Africa. The Lusitanians were a Celtic group but I am uncertain of the Iberians origins (not speaking of Celt-Iberi). Certainly Ibernoi was a Celtic group in Ireland I know that much but don't know if there is a link.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    From what I heard the Tartessians where Phoenicians proper whereas the succeeding Turdetanians were later Carthaginians of north-west Africa. The Lusitanians were a Celtic group but I am uncertain of the Iberians origins (not speaking of Celt-Iberi). Certainly Ibernoi was a Celtic group in Ireland I know that much but don't know if there is a link.
    yes your marker could be involved with Phoenicians.

    But a paper from 2011 says basically that T which is older than R have a good chance of mutating into R1a

    part of article below

    It seems that the most surprising fact of the above data has not attracted attention.
    Fact one, that the basic haplotypes R1a1 and T1 are almost identical:
    The feeling that T - is an early R1a1, which mutated DYS426 12 -> 11, but DYS392 = 13 survived from ancient R1a1 (by the way, is the same and R1b).


    We associate the basic haplotypes of haplogroup T with the youngest haplogroups on a tree - R1a1 and R1b1a2 the Russian Plain and in Europe, respectively:

    12 12 11 - 11 11 - 11 - 11 8 17 17 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 12 11 11 12 (R1a, RusR)
    12 12 13 - 11 11 - 12 - 11 9 15 16 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 12 11 11 12 (R1b1a2, E

    11 12 13 - 11 13 - 9 - 11 8 17 17 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 11 12 11 12 (T1)

    The similarity of the base haplotype subclades T1 (and other subclades of haplogroup T1) with R1a1 and R1b1a2 immediately obvious, especially in the last panel of the basic haplotypes, particularly haplogroups R1a1 and T1 (identical alleles identified).

    Haplogroup T and R1a1 shares according to their base haplotypes of 8-11 mutations. This is - the minimum distance around the tree haplogroup. Distance T and haplogroup R1b1a2 on basic haplotypes - 10-13 mutations. Thus, the place of haplogroup T - at the top of the tree haplogroup.

    8-11 mutations with haplogroup R1a1 - is 40600-60700 years between their common ancestors. In this case, the common ancestor of haplogroup T and R1a1 lived between (40600 +5000 +10000) / 2 = 28,000 years ago (60700 +5000 +10000) / 2 = 38,000 years ago. This - the approximate time of haplogroup R, but this pattern is not consistent with current knowledge of the phylogeny of haplogroups R and T. But phylogenetics is not consistent with the view base haplotype haplogroup. It is clear that the experts it needs to be carefully considered, and possibly make adjustments. Haplogroup T definitely does not fit into an existing tree haplogroups after a series of 2009-2011, side moves.

    Literature

    Klyosov, AA (2011) Haplotypes of R1b1a2-P312 and related subclades: origin and "ages" of most recent common ancestors. Proceedings of the Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy, v.4, No. 6, 1127-1195.


    so
    between T and R1a there are 9 mutations
    9 :2 =4,5 = 18,000 years ( at 4000 years per mutation change)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Can anyone supply me the link which has data that T y-dna is 5% in central France as per Maciano's ydna of countries

    Here you go :) http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    thanks

    but I found the French Ydna split later which I sent to maciano............it shows also 5% in alsace

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I have found that the T in the Veneto region/alps can be explained by two factors: 1. The Adriatic Enetoi. 2. A nearby Phoenician trading post on the Venetian coast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    I have found that the T in the Veneto region/alps can be explained by two factors: 1. The Adriatic Enetoi. 2. A nearby Phoenician trading post on the Venetian coast.
    The Phoenician trading post was tergeste ( trieste ) which was a mix of Mycenaean, venetic and liburnian traders ............but the word Tergeste is illyrian word meaning market place

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