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    6 members found this post helpful.

    Thumbs up Hundreds of ancient Lombards to be autosomally tested

    Patrick J. Geary of the Institute for Advanced Study announced a few days ago that he and his team were going to test the DNA of hundreds of Lombard-era individuals from cemeteries in Pannonia and Italy. They will test about 5000 SNP's in each sample. The aim is of course to better understand who were the Lombards.

    I personally expect the Lombards, to be similar to the modern population of Denmark. Their Y-DNA should have mostly R1b-U106, I1, R1a and I2a2a (M223), in that order of frequency.
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    Excited about this study, but are they going to test Y-DNA too?

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    After reading the background, I understand why they want to have autosomal tests, but I hope that they will test the Y-DNA and mtDNA as well, while they are at it. Anyway, I think the result could be very interesting, and I look forward to it.

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    Great news! Without ancient DNA it's impossible to reconstruct reliable model of migrations that took place in Central Europe during 2-7 centures AD.

    My prediction:
    The majority of the tested remnants will turn out R1a (Z280, M458), I1 and I2
    I do not expect that any R1b-U106 or R1a-Z284 clades will be found.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    My prediction:
    The majority of the tested remnants will turn out R1a (Z280, M458), I1 and I2
    I do not expect that any R1b-U106 or R1a-Z284 clades will be found.
    Without R1b-U106, the Lombards just wouldn't be Germanic. If you also remove the Scandinavian R1a-Z284 and replace it by the Balto-Slavic R1a-Z280, then what you are saying is that the Lombards were essentially Slavs. Aside from the fact the the Lombards were clearly Germanic culturally and linguistically, the problem with your predictions is that the genetic make-up of modern Italy does not support them at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Without R1b-U106, the Lombards just wouldn't be Germanic. If you also remove the Scandinavian R1a-Z284 and replace it by the Balto-Slavic R1a-Z280, then what you are saying is that the Lombards were essentially Slavs. Aside from the fact the the Lombards were clearly Germanic culturally and linguistically, the problem with your predictions is that the genetic make-up of modern Italy does not support them at all.
    R1b-U106 has nothing to do with Germanic people. Real Germanic people were folks with R1a-Z280 clades (CTS1211+, CTS3402+) and all the rest folks living to the East from the Rhein (mostly I1, I2 and some of R1a-M458 folks). R1b-U106 folks belong to Nordwestblock and they were germanazed by R1a and I1, I2 folks during Migration period.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    interesting and given the fact that Prof. Patrick Geary assembled a team of geneticists, archaeologists, physical anthropologists, and historians also very promising.

    The Langobards in Anthropology (Pannonia):

    Department of Anthropology, Hungarian Natural History Museum, Budapest - (2000) - [p.88]
    http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/Acta%20HP/44-87.pdf
    ---
    The Langobards arrived from their Elbe-region homeland into the Central Danubian Basin in 526 (other sources set this date for 547). They settled in the former Pannonia (Bóna 1974). For a long time only three of their cemeteries were analysed and published: Várpalota (Malán 1952), Hegykô (Tóth 1964) and Szentendre (Kiszely 1966). The image of the Langobard deriving from these three series looked like this:
    their majority were dolichocran, with large absolute measurements, they had high and narrow faces with marked relieves. They were tall with a good physique. Nordic was the most frequently found type among them, but Mediterranean and Cromagnoid elements were also present in their cemeteries.


    But the Langobards (themselves) were not the only people that moved from Pannonia into North Italy;

    Paul the Deacon - Historia gentis Langobardorum (799 AD) - [Langobard settlements in N. Italy]
    Whence, even until today, we call the villages in which they dwell Gepidan, Bulgarian, Sarmatian, Pannonian, Suabian, Norican, or by other names of this kind.

    So I expect the N. Italy samples to be very Heterogenous; and based on the Gepids i also expect an Asiatic [Hunnic] strain to be found in the samples of N. Italy.

    Department of Anthropology, Hungarian Natural History Museum, Budapest - (2000) - [p.89]
    http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/Acta%20HP/44-87.pdf
    ---
    Bartucz (1936) published a paper with the title “The Gepid Craniae from the Cemetery of Kiszombor”.....He drew his general conclusions on the population from the extremely thorough examination of 54 well preserved skulls. Bartucz stated that the Gepids of Kiszombor formed a special race conglomerate that was made up of elements of the Nordic, Mediterranean, East-European, Turanoid, Mongolid and Palaeo-Asiatic races. The tall stature, long-skulled, high and narrow faced Nordic type was the dominant component.

    If the study does not show a Heterogenous and an Asiatic [Hunnic] strain i will reject the study.

    Langobarden settlements - [Archaeological sites] in Italy - [Majority in North (Kingdom)]


    My critique in advance is that the Scholars of this future study will only compare Lombards from Lombardy with the Langobarden (which i think is a cheap move); they should compare Friulians and Trientans (the most concentrated Archaeological legacy) to the Langobarden as well.

    I trust the team of Prof. Geary to distinguish between the proper Langobarden of the 6th and 7th centuries and the largely mixed (with the remnant Romanic pop.) Langobarden of the 8th cen.;
    King Ratchis [744-749] already had a Roman wife Tasia and had children with her.
    These two sets of Langobarden have to be distinguished and their samples clearly labeled or i will reject the study.

    It would also be great if there would be follow up studies concerning other Germanic migration people - like the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Bajuwaren and pos. even the Vandals; for comparison.
    Last edited by Nobody1; 24-05-13 at 20:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    My critique in advance is that the Scholars of this future study will only compare Lombards from Lombardy with the Langobarden (which i think is a cheap move); they should compare Friulians and Trientans (the most concentrated Archaeological legacy) to the Langobarden as well.

    I trust the team of Prof. Geary to distinguish between the proper Langobarden of the 6th and 7th centuries and
    the largely mixed (with the remnant Romanic pop.) Langobarden of the 8th cen.; King Ratchis [744-749] already had a Roman wife Tasia and had children with her.
    These two sets of Langobarden have to be distinguished and their samples clearly labeled or i will reject the study.

    It would also be great if there would be follow up studies concerning other Germanic migration people - like the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Bajuwaren and pos. even the Vandals; for comparison.
    I completely agree with you on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    interesting and given the fact that Prof. Patrick Geary assembled a team of geneticists, archaeologists, physical anthropologists, and historians also very promising.

    The Langobards in Anthropology (Pannonia):

    Department of Anthropology, Hungarian Natural History Museum, Budapest - (2000) - [p.88]
    http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/Acta%20HP/44-87.pdf
    ---
    The Langobards arrived from their Elbe-region homeland into the Central Danubian Basin in 526 (other sources set this date for 547). They settled in the former Pannonia (Bóna 1974). For a long time only three of their cemeteries were analysed and published: Várpalota (Malán 1952), Hegykô (Tóth 1964) and Szentendre (Kiszely 1966). The image of the Langobard deriving from these three series looked like this:
    their majority were dolichocran, with large absolute measurements, they had high and narrow faces with marked relieves. They were tall with a good physique. Nordic was the most frequently found type among them, but Mediterranean and Cromagnoid elements were also present in their cemeteries.


    But the Langobards (themselves) were not the only people that moved from Pannonia into North Italy;

    Paul the Deacon - Historia gentis Langobardorum (799 AD) - [Langobard settlements in N. Italy]
    Whence, even until today, we call the villages in which they dwell Gepidan, Bulgarian, Sarmatian, Pannonian, Suabian, Norican, or by other names of this kind.

    So I expect the N. Italy samples to be very Heterogenous; and based on the Gepids i also expect an Asiatic [Hunnic] strain to be found in the samples of N. Italy.

    Department of Anthropology, Hungarian Natural History Museum, Budapest - (2000) - [p.89]
    http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/Acta%20HP/44-87.pdf
    ---
    Bartucz (1936) published a paper with the title “The Gepid Craniae from the Cemetery of Kiszombor”.....He drew his general conclusions on the population from the extremely thorough examination of 54 well preserved skulls. Bartucz stated that the Gepids of Kiszombor formed a special race conglomerate that was made up of elements of the Nordic, Mediterranean, East-European, Turanoid, Mongolid and Palaeo-Asiatic races. The tall stature, long-skulled, high and narrow faced Nordic type was the dominant component.

    If the study does not show a Heterogenous and an Asiatic [Hunnic] strain i will reject the study.

    Langobarden settlements - [Archaeological sites] in Italy - [Majority in North (Kingdom)]


    My critique in advance is that the Scholars of this future study will only compare Lombards from Lombardy with the Langobarden (which i think is a cheap move); they should compare Friulians and Trientans (the most concentrated Archaeological legacy) to the Langobarden as well.

    I trust the team of Prof. Geary to distinguish between the proper Langobarden of the 6th and 7th centuries and the largely mixed (with the remnant Romanic pop.) Langobarden of the 8th cen.;
    King Ratchis [744-749] already had a Roman wife Tasia and had children with her.
    These two sets of Langobarden have to be distinguished and their samples clearly labeled or i will reject the study.

    It would also be great if there would be follow up studies concerning other Germanic migration people - like the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Bajuwaren and pos. even the Vandals; for comparison.

    IIRC paul the deacon stated that the lombards first settled around eastern Austria and where the first people to clash with the migrating slavs coming from the east around 650AD.

    Ostrogoths , visigoths etc already went through Italy prior the Lombards, what findings do you expect?

    As for the map, from east to west, the friulians are noted, then around lake Garda ( which separates lombardy from veneto ) then brescia/cremona area, then Milan and lastly piedmont region. The settlements/findings around Lake Garda was clearly for water.
    I note that Paul the deacon was correct in that the lombards settled firstly in eastern Austria as per the map
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    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Has anyone considered the Lombards might have been u152? But most probably they where u106 (Germanic R1b) mixed in with I1 and I2b lineages; a more germano-Scandinavian mixture. North Italy has peaks of R1b u-106 ( even though the u152 levels are MUCH higher) u106 reaches its maximum italian frequency in the north I believe; to me even if they are R1b they where a foreign , Germanic "proper" invading tribe that brought a different R1b subclade along with them at low % ( hundreds if not thousands of years after the initial Gaul celts invaded Italy en masse in many success waves, one earlier than the other).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    R1b-U106 not germanic at all, only NW archaic I-E germanized only during the Volkswanderungen??? I don't agree:
    surely some R-U106 were present at low level among Belgae and N-Celts (arrived late enough, maybe at iron Ages), the maxima of U106 is among the Frisia people and these ones are late came people in N-Netherlands! and they are more 'nordic' than a lot of Scandinavians; they were preceded there, I think, by a mix of Megalithers+Danubians neolithical people+ Mesolithic "aborigenes" already partially indoeuropeanized since the Funnelbeaker period, the most of R1b-U106 bearers were part of the 'germanic cristallization' around Denmark, I think... I have not the new results for SNPs but comparing STR, we see the "frison" STR is commoner in N-Netherlands and far less common South of the Rhine river in S-Netherlands, yet today: so the first I-E speaking populations before Germanics were not the strongest for U106: a point again here! I told yet U106 bearers were settled early enough south the baltic shores, maybe as far ago as the Bronze Age, maybe before-
    I don' t know about present day Lombardy for R-U106 - apparently the have about 6% of Y-I1, what is more than the remnant of Italy but poor enough at absolute rate - but genuine ancient Longobards were never the majority in these celtic lands of N-C-Italy - and Lombardy currently have about 1,5% of Y-I2a2, what is far less than central Italy of Urnfields-Villanova-Umbrian affinities (Y-I2a2 has nothing to do with typical Germanics: it diffused among them from the metallurgic or ores regions of pre-Germany, maybe acculturing them partially, but the relative distribution of Y-I2a2 compared to global Y-I is not so strong in N-parts of "Great Germania-Scandinavia" - in this relative %, it is more "occidental european" than "northern european" or "eastern european"-
    when compared to I1 only, I2a2 is ridiculously weak in Scandinavia and on this aspect and rapport, Irish and French, even eastern Frenchmen (Burgundians?), and too western Iberians (Wisigoths Ostrogoths, Sueves?) look closer to Scandinavians (Vikings and Co) than modern Lombards of today Italy, and of course than modern Netherlanders - but if Longobards were more on the W-germanic side???
    the problem will be: are the cemeteries studied of real longobard settlers or of a mix of Longobards and allies? (as very often the time is of importance, that were seen in other invaded lands)
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    kenavo, read you again...

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    R1b-U106 not germanic at all, only NW archaic I-E germanized only during the Volkswanderungen??? I don't agree:
    [---]
    when compared to I1 only, I2a2 is ridiculously weak in Scandinavia and on this aspect and rapport, Irish and French, even eastern Frenchmen (Burgundians?), and too western Iberians (Wisigoths Ostrogoths, Sueves?) look closer to Scandinavians (Vikings and Co) than modern Lombards of today Italy, and of course than modern Netherlanders - but if Longobards were more on the W-germanic side???
    the problem will be: are the cemeteries studied of real longobard settlers or of a mix of Longobards and allies? (as very often the time is of importance, that were seen in other invaded lands)
    skwizh on ha moned a ran da gousked!
    kenavo, read you again...


    I correct mysef (but surely the most of yours had understood: I was confusing: "this aspect" concerns the respective %s of Y-I1 opposed to Y-R1b-U106 - excuse-me! what doesn' t contradict my statement about relative scarcity of Y-I2a2 compared to Y-I1!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    IIRC paul the deacon stated that the lombards first settled around eastern Austria and where the first people to clash with the migrating slavs coming from the east around 650AD.
    Well, if i remember correctly it was Prokopius who recorded the migration of the Langobarden once they emerged on the Danube.

    The Langobarden first settled in Rugiland [North of the Danube - after Odoaker defeated the Rugii] ~ 488 AD

    The Langobarden clashed with the Heruli (not Slavs) in ~ 508 AD; [disputes over the Langobarden princess Rumetruda]

    The Heruli had a powerful kingdom between the March and Theiss rivers (North of the Danube),
    but after a massive battle (recorded by Prokopius) the Langobarden defeated the Heruli and their King Rodulf commited suicide. [End of the Heruli Kingdom]

    The Langobarden King Audoin marched into Pannonia ~526 AD; with the Byzantine Emperor Justinian granting the Langobarden full control of Pannonia & Noricum [South of the Danube] ~547/548 AD
    The Langobarden were an important part of the Byzantine army during the Gothic war in Italy (Battle of Taginae 552 AD);

    Neil Christie
    - Towns and Their Territories Between Late Antiquity and the Early Middles Ages (2000)
    Subsequently, according to Procopius, in 547/548 the Byzantine emperor Justinian "bestowed upon the Lombards the towns (poleis) of Noricum and the fortresses of Pannonia", meaning Pannonia Savia and Sccunda with a formal recognition of their existing holds in the north.


    Its important to note that the Hunnic invasion [390 - 454 AD] caused massive turmoil amongst the Germanic peoples and Sarmatians; And therefor the History of the Balkans (after Attila and the Battle of Nedao) is fundamental in understanding the Germanic migration era and Early Byzantine Politics;

    Reading about the Ostrogoths in Jordanes and Cassiodorus or the Langobarden in Prokopius and Paul the Deacon reveals a lot about this time.

    - Histories & Chronicles
    http://www.northvegr.org/

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Ostrogoths , visigoths etc already went through Italy prior the Lombards, what findings do you expect?
    Not concerning Italy;

    In General comparing migration era Germanic tribes with each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Well, if i remember correctly it was Prokopius who recorded the migration of the Langobarden once they emerged on the Danube.

    The Langobarden first settled in Rugiland [North of the Danube - after Odoaker defeated the Rugii] ~ 488 AD

    The Langobarden clashed with the Heruli (not Slavs) in ~ 508 AD; [disputes over the Langobarden princess Rumetruda]

    The Heruli had a powerful kingdom between the March and Theiss rivers (North of the Danube),
    but after a massive battle (recorded by Prokopius) the Langobarden defeated the Heruli and their King Rodulf commited suicide. [End of the Heruli Kingdom]

    The Langobarden King Audoin marched into Pannonia ~526 AD; with the Byzantine Emperor Justinian granting the Langobarden full control of Pannonia & Noricum [South of the Danube] ~547/548 AD
    The Langobarden were an important part of the Byzantine army during the Gothic war in Italy (Battle of Taginae 552 AD);

    Neil Christie
    - Towns and Their Territories Between Late Antiquity and the Early Middles Ages (2000)
    Subsequently, according to Procopius, in 547/548 the Byzantine emperor Justinian "bestowed upon the Lombards the towns (poleis) of Noricum and the fortresses of Pannonia", meaning Pannonia Savia and Sccunda with a formal recognition of their existing holds in the north.


    Its important to note that the Hunnic invasion [390 - 454 AD] caused massive turmoil amongst the Germanic peoples and Sarmatians; And therefor the History of the Balkans (after Attila and the Battle of Nedao) is fundamental in understanding the Germanic migration era and Early Byzantine Politics;

    Reading about the Ostrogoths in Jordanes and Cassiodorus or the Langobarden in Prokopius and Paul the Deacon reveals a lot about this time.

    - Histories & Chronicles
    http://www.northvegr.org/



    Not concerning Italy;

    In General comparing migration era Germanic tribes with each other.

    thanks

    Yes Heruli, ( are not slavs ) .........according to Roman historians , 5000 settled in concordia in Friuli prior to the ostrogoths/vandal/longobards comings

    You have to love the Romans for displacing people everwhere!

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    The Lombards originating in present day Northwestern Germany on the North German Plain as part of the Suebi confederation initially probably only carried just I1 and R1b-U106 with a small percentage of I2 and R1a Z280* (R1a -CTS 1211 and/or CTS3402 are more likely characteristic of the Eastern Germanic tribes, Balts and Slavs, while, R1a -Z284 wasn't present at all as that was a Scandinavian marker and was spread primarily by the Vikings several centuries later.)

    As the Lombards migrated south towards present day Austria and Hungary they probably incorporated Celtic and Sarmatian (Iazyges) populations. So by the time the Lombards departed the Pannonian plain and moved towards Italy they had a considerable amount of R1b-U152 and small percentage of G2, and R1a-Z94+... (maybe Z2122+ and/or Z2123+) thrown in for good measure! A real barbarian mix with a small German speaking elite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T101 View Post
    The Lombards originating in present day Northwestern Germany on the North German Plain as part of the Suebi confederation initially probably only carried just I1 and R1b-U106 with a small percentage of I2 and R1a Z280* (R1a -CTS 1211 and/or CTS3402 are more likely characteristic of the Eastern Germanic tribes, Balts and Slavs, while, R1a -Z284 wasn't present at all as that was a Scandinavian marker and was spread primarily by the Vikings several centuries later.)

    As the Lombards migrated south towards present day Austria and Hungary they probably incorporated Celtic and Sarmatian (Iazyges) populations. So by the time the Lombards departed the Pannonian plain and moved towards Italy they had a considerable amount of R1b-U152 and small percentage of G2, and R1a-Z94+... (maybe Z2122+ and/or Z2123+) thrown in for good measure! A real barbarian mix with a small German speaking elite.
    IIRC, I1* and I2* came with this lombard ( vandals, rugii, heruli etc movement)

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by T101 View Post
    The Lombards originating in present day Northwestern Germany on the North German Plain as part of the Suebi confederation initially probably only carried just I1 and R1b-U106 with a small percentage of I2 and R1a Z280* (R1a -CTS 1211 and/or CTS3402 are more likely characteristic of the Eastern Germanic tribes, Balts and Slavs, while, R1a -Z284 wasn't present at all as that was a Scandinavian marker and was spread primarily by the Vikings several centuries later.)

    As the Lombards migrated south towards present day Austria and Hungary they probably incorporated Celtic and Sarmatian (Iazyges) populations. So by the time the Lombards departed the Pannonian plain and moved towards Italy they had a considerable amount of R1b-U152 and small percentage of G2, and R1a-Z94+... (maybe Z2122+ and/or Z2123+) thrown in for good measure! A real barbarian mix with a small German speaking elite.
    I agree for the most with you, but I 'm not sure scandinavian Hgs ahve to be excluded from continental Germanics tribes, because I suppose the germanization is a process where a big osmose North-South was envolved: only the percentages showed some variations, I think...

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    if you are interested: Migration Route of Lombards in Italy



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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    if you are interested: Migration Route of Lombards in Italy


    one of the best maps I have seen to describe the longobards

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    one of the best maps I have seen to describe the longobards
    How do you know it is the best map?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    How do you know it is the best map?
    in my opinion based on what I read

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    Hello,
    Patrick Geary is not going to make a paper on it. The information about lombards genes research has disappeared from his web page.
    http :// www .hs .ias .edu /geary

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    @ zanipolo

    Fara = German fahren / English fare
    Its a Germanic term, also present amongst the Bajuwaren - Faramanni

    Langobarden place names in Northern Italy (mostly Po Valley)
    http://www.terraorobica.net/Articoli...Longobarde.htm

    Fara Langobarden towns in North Italy



    ---

    Yes,
    Tacitus, Ptolemy and Strabo all place the Langobarden on the lower Elbe;

    However the Origo Gentis records a migration from the East after a battle with the Vandals;
    Strabo also records that the Langobarden migrated (fled) to the Elbe from the east;

    Strabo - Book VII
    Now as for the tribe of the Suevi, it is the largest, for it extends from the Rhenus to the Albis; and a part of them even dwell on the far side of the Albis, as, for instance, the Hermondori and the Langobardi; and at the present time these latter, at least, have, to the last man, been driven in flight out of their country into the land on the far side of the river.

    The Langobarden called themselves Winniler, before the conflict with the Vandals;

    Origo Gentis Langobardorum - Chap.I
    Then the leaders of the Wandals, that is, Ambri and Assi, moved with their army, and said to the Winniles: ‘Either pay us tribute or prepare yourselves for battle and fight with us.’ Then answered Ybor and Agio, with their mother Gambara: ‘It is better for us to make ready the battle than to pay tributes to the Wandals.’ Then Ambri and Assi, that is, the leaders of the Wandals, asked Godan that he should give them the victory over the Winniles. Godan answered, saying: ‘Whom I shall first see when at sunrise, to them will I give the victory.’ At that time Gambara with her two sons, that is, Ybor and Agio, who were chiefs over the Winniles, besought Frea, the wife of Godan, to be propitious to the Winniles.

    Acc. to the Historia Gentis Langobardorum,
    the Winniler migrated from Scadanan > Scoringa (Baltic coast) > Mauringa (east Elbe lands)



    I dont know from what study this is (a Polish study) - but it shows the Langobarden (Longobardowie) clustering closest to the Przeworska culture;



    Przeworska culture = Iron age culture, closest associated with the Vandals;

    S. J. Shennan - Archaeological Approaches to Cultural Identity (2003)
    The archaeological Vandals —i.e. the Przeworsk culture— show many similarities in the material record with the Early Iron Age cultures of North Jutland and of the Eastern parts of Central Celtic Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    @ zanipolo

    Fara = German fahren / English fare
    Its a Germanic term, also present amongst the Bajuwaren - Faramanni

    Langobarden place names in Northern Italy (mostly Po Valley)
    http://www.terraorobica.net/Articoli...Longobarde.htm

    Fara Langobarden towns in North Italy



    ---

    Yes,
    Tacitus, Ptolemy and Strabo all place the Langobarden on the lower Elbe;

    However theOrigo Gentisrecords a migration from the East after a battle with the Vandals;
    Strabo also records that the Langobarden migrated (fled) to the Elbe from the east;

    Strabo - Book VII
    Now as for the tribe of the Suevi, it is the largest, for it extends from the Rhenus to the Albis; and a part of them even dwell on the far side of the Albis, as, for instance, the Hermondori and the Langobardi; and at the present time these latter, at least, have, to the last man, been driven in flight out of their country into the land on the far side of the river.

    The Langobarden called themselves Winniler, before the conflict with the Vandals;

    Origo Gentis Langobardorum - Chap.I
    Then the leaders of the Wandals, that is, Ambri and Assi, moved with their army, and said to the Winniles: ‘Either pay us tribute or prepare yourselves for battle and fight with us.’ Then answered Ybor and Agio, with their mother Gambara: ‘It is better for us to make ready the battle than to pay tributes to the Wandals.’ Then Ambri and Assi, that is, the leaders of the Wandals, asked Godan that he should give them the victory over the Winniles. Godan answered, saying: ‘Whom I shall first see when at sunrise, to them will I give the victory.’ At that time Gambara with her two sons, that is, Ybor and Agio, who were chiefs over the Winniles, besought Frea, the wife of Godan, to be propitious to the Winniles.

    Acc. to the Historia Gentis Langobardorum,
    the Winniler migrated from Scadanan > Scoringa (Baltic coast) > Mauringa (east Elbe lands)



    I dont know from what study this is (a Polish study) - but it shows the Langobarden (Longobardowie) clustering closest to the Przeworska culture;



    Przeworska culture = Iron age culture, closest associated with the Vandals;

    S. J. Shennan - Archaeological Approaches to Cultural Identity (2003)
    The archaeological Vandals —i.e. the Przeworsk culture— show many similarities in the material record with the Early Iron Age cultures of North Jutland and of the Eastern parts of Central Celtic Europe.
    and they where told to pay because they where not vandals........
    Then the leaders of the Wandals, that is, Ambri and Assi, moved with their army, and said to the Winniles: ‘Either pay us tribute or prepare yourselves for battle and fight with us.
    Vandals are not Scandinavians they most likely are a mix of continental germans and baltic peoples. Bronze-age population between the elbe and oder rivers was baltic tribes. The germanics coming from jutland traveled from west to east along the coast....over time, these people mixed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    and they where told to pay because they where not vandals........
    Then the leaders of the Wandals, that is, Ambri and Assi, moved with their army, and said to the Winniles: ‘Either pay us tribute or prepare yourselves for battle and fight with us.
    Vandals are not Scandinavians they most likely are a mix of continental germans and baltic peoples. Bronze-age population between the elbe and oder rivers was baltic tribes. The germanics coming from jutland traveled from west to east along the coast....over time, these people mixed.

    where did you read East the Elbe was 'baltic' at Bronze Age - who knows that??? never red nor heard - a proto-satem or a not well evolved "between" I-E language, possible - it is not the same - the eastern Y-R1a of today East germany is not genuine in this land, it was surely carried there by High-Middle-Ages Slavs tribes which reached Hamburg surroundings + (it is proved by surnames inquiry) by modern Slavic emigrants - the Schleswig-Denmark region seems very well being the germanic cradle (with perhaps South Sweden), for we know at this date, not only the West of the Elbe (Laba)...

    but if you have some proofs, I'm buyer!
    good afternoon and good Sunday

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