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Thread: Breakdown of R1b subclades in Italy (Boattini et al.)

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    I personally cannot let go of the fact that the Trojans where probably J2; maybe their elite was R-L23 or something but they where certainly majoritarily of Mesopotamian stock.

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    The Hittites spoke luwian, as the Trojans did (spread over turkey/Syria) Lycian was similar to Luwian. Lydia is derived from Luwiya, land of luwians; they where all akin to each other as J2 people's; Carians are linked to Sarpedon and Minos of Crete, Crete as 40% J2 and has always been known as the European cradle of middle eastern people's; mainland Turks had long ago moved from Anatolia to Crete and back etc. the Lydians (ancestors of Etruscans) lycaonians where all linked to this, as where their predecessors the Trojans and to me....even the Hittites of Hattushash.

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    Chatal Hoyuk, Hattushash, these are sites linked to the very first ANATOLIANS...anatolians that to me where J2.

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    Even Lydian is a branch of the Anatolian branch of the indo-European language family, and look at their middle eastern J2 roots. I guess they adopted indo-European language but obviously their genetic story tells us otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Phoenicians also appeared just after the destruction of Troy in 1200 BCE. However the Phoenicians were not Indo-European and never had interests around the Black Sea. Besides, Phoenician religion, culture and artefacts do not resemble Trojan ones.

    It is well known that the Greeks under Agamemnon destroyed Troy and took commercial control over the Aegean and the Black Sea. But if the Trojans also had trade routes around the Mediterranean, then their disappearance would have left a vacuum that the Phoenicians quickly filled.
    interesting, maybe the Phoenicians were a mix of early Caananites and Trojan immigrants from the destruction of Troy. That would explain their acquired maritime technology around 1200 BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    If the Etruscans came from Anatolia, how could they not have had some R1b ?

    How would the Greeks have spread R1b-M269 to central and northern Italy ?

    Another possibility is that the R1b-M269 in central and northern Italy came with the Trojans, who according to the legend were the ancestors of the Romans. Ancient Troy might well have been founded by early Indo-Europeans after they invaded Southeast Europe between 4200 BCE and 3000 BCE. The Indo-European Ezero culture, which expanded over most of modern Bulgaria, lasted from 3300 to 2700 BCE. Troy was founded circa 3000 BCE. The timing and location match. This corresponds also to the golden age of the Maykop culture (3700-2500 BCE) on the other side of the Black Sea.

    I had originally postulated five years ago that Maykop people founded Troy, and that the seat of the Maykop culture eventually moved to Troy. During that period, the bulk of R1b Indo-Europeans from the eastern and northern shore of the Black Sea migrated to the western shore and Southeast Europe.

    The Hittites appear in northern Anatolia around 2000 BCE and spoke a language related to Trojan (Luwian). If the Hittites were Indo-Europeans and R1b, then in all logic Trojans were also R1b people. Since R1b-M269 (or actually its subclade L23, not tested in this study) is the dominant Indo-European variety of R1b in Anatolia, Greece and the Balkans, there have high chances that the Trojans belonged to that subclade.

    Another candidate for the Trojan haplogroup is R1b-U152 itself, as U152 is generally associated with the expansion of the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures, which suddenly started around 1200 BCE, just after the destruction of Troy. What if the Trojans founded the Hallstatt culture and its Italian offshoot, the Villanovan culture ?

    The only way to know for sure whether the Trojans were M269, L23 or U152 is to test ancient DNA from the Troy region dating from sometime between 3000 and 1200 BCE. What is certain is that U152 is present in Anatolia today, but it could be the result of back migrations of the Celts and the Romans.
    The story of Aeneas comes to mind.

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    The Phoenicians where Canaanites but before that they came from the Persian gulf region; they differ from the Trojans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    The Hittites spoke luwian, as the Trojans did (spread over turkey/Syria) Lycian was similar to Luwian. Lydia is derived from Luwiya, land of luwians; they where all akin to each other as J2 people's; Carians are linked to Sarpedon and Minos of Crete, Crete as 40% J2 and has always been known as the European cradle of middle eastern people's; mainland Turks had long ago moved from Anatolia to Crete and back etc. the Lydians (ancestors of Etruscans) lycaonians where all linked to this, as where their predecessors the Trojans and to me....even the Hittites of Hattushash.
    Sorry, etruscans, pelasgians, hattians did not spoke IE, it has high possibility that Troyans did not spoke IE also
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    More leca-culo attitude from emperor Vallicanus; as usual.
    Your all class, Mr Anti-Semite.

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    I'm not anti-Semitic I already said that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have updated the map of R1b-U152 taking into account the Boattini study.

    You have moved the epicentre from Emilia to basically Lake Como/Bergamo area ( east Lombardy).

    You do know thats basically the Lepontic language area, the language that began celtic language
    AND
    Bergamo is the admixture centre for the north of italy
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    I personally cannot let go of the fact that the Trojans where probably J2; maybe their elite was R-L23 or something but they where certainly majoritarily of Mesopotamian stock.
    There was no Turkic people in Anatolia when the Trojans where around. The Turkic people came from Central Asia around 600AD, they are usually associated with the uzbeks in regards to J2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I agree with that. But within Italy the vast majority of U152 is Italic. In France, Switzerland, Germany and Belgium, U152 may be either Celtic or Italic (Roman).
    Did we actually look at the full text, did we see the ages of the Ydna and its arrival in Italy.
    G2 is 15000 years old, next is
    R1b at 7000 years old

    is ti not logical that G2 came to Italy first even if they arrived in minimal numbers...........or am I missing something with the report?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    interesting, maybe the Phoenicians were a mix of early Caananites and Trojan immigrants from the destruction of Troy. That would explain their acquired maritime technology around 1200 BC.
    Phoenicians knew about trojans because they where around at the same time.

    My guess is that the trojans where R1b as with the Hitties ( in majority ) and their allies the tracians of anatolia where G2a3 , that is Bithynian and mysian thracians. G2a3 is northern Anatolia and G2a4 is northern caucasus.
    Map below clearly shows the thracian lands east of troy and north of the hittities in Anatolia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

    East of the Thracians where the "fabricated" Eneti , who where not Eneti but came from the modern city of Samsun which in ancient times was called Enete

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Phoenicians also appeared just after the destruction of Troy in 1200 BCE. However the Phoenicians were not Indo-European and never had interests around the Black Sea. Besides, Phoenician religion, culture and artefacts do not resemble Trojan ones.

    It is well known that the Greeks under Agamemnon destroyed Troy and took commercial control over the Aegean and the Black Sea. But if the Trojans also had trade routes around the Mediterranean, then their disappearance would have left a vacuum that the Phoenicians quickly filled.
    Where myceneans actually Greeks or was the first Greeks the, Dorians that replaced the Mycenaeans?
    There where Mycenaean lands in Anatolia at the time of the Trojan war. The war was about control of the black sea for trade.

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    Turks are not associated with Uzbeks in terms of J2; their J2 is an extension of the Mesopotamian one. I find it interesting that Eneti came from Sasun as hg T owns 20% of males in that Turkish village. As for the Hittites and Trojans, culturally and genetically try where typical middle easterners. There where the Minoans even before the Mycenaeans, both of these people's being of predominantly pelasgian origin. The Dorians probably hellenized them.

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    When the Hittites crumbled dUring the bronze age, small neo-Hittite kingdoms sprung up across Anatolia. Lydia was one of these.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Did we actually look at the full text, did we see the ages of the Ydna and its arrival in Italy.
    G2 is 15000 years old, next is
    R1b at 7000 years old

    is ti not logical that G2 came to Italy first even if they arrived in minimal numbers...........or am I missing something with the report?
    You are referring to Table2 of the Boattini et al 2013 study;

    Table2:
    Ages were estimated for the entire haplogroups as well as for each DAPC cluster with at least 10 indivisuals and frequencies >70% in NWI, SEI, or SAR

    You highlighted the entire haplogroups age estimates, the DAPC clusters (concerning Italy) reveal younger dates for NW Italy and SE Italy;

    ---

    Concerning the Y-DNA in modern-Italy:

    Boattini et al 2013
    Significantly different ages were estimated for mtDNA and Y-chromosome systems. mtDNA variability dates back to Paleolithic and supports the existence of an Italian human Refugium during the last glacial maximum whereas Y-chromosome points to the importance that the demographic events happened during the Neolithic and the Metal Ages had in the male Italian patterns of diversity and distribution.

    For instance, the dates of several DAPC clusters fall within the range of the Metal Ages (Table 2). During this long period (third and second millennia BC) Italy underwent important technological and social transformations finally leading to the ethnogenesis of the most important proto-historic Italic peoples. On the whole, our results indicate that these transformations, far from being exclusively cultural phenomena, actually involved relevant population events.


    So the major impact for Y-DNA Hg within the modern Italian Population came
    during the Neolithic and Metal Ages [Chalcolithic>Bronze Age>Iron Age]

    With the diversity also stemming from the diff. migrations (of the diff. peoples) from this time range (neolithic-iron age);

    Boattini et al 2013

    These results suggest that most of the Y-chromosomal diversity present in modern day Italians was originated from few common ancestors living during late Neolithic times and the Early Metal Ages.

    BATWING was used to estimate the age of split between the Italian regions identified by the first sPCA (NWI and SEI, excluding SAR). BATWING modelled population growth starting at 12,890 YBP (95% CI: 3,700–83,070), with a rate of 0.00429 (95% CI: 0.00254–0.01219) per year. Our results suggest that the split happened around 5,490 YBP (95% CI: 1,620–26,830).

    5,490 YBP = 3400 BC [Neolithic (late)]

    something also this study established;
    Ralph - Coop et al 2013
    http://www.plosbiology.org/article/i...l.pbio.1001555
    Last edited by Nobody1; 06-06-13 at 13:42.

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    @ zanipolo

    Concerning G2a-P15 and the Neolithic diversity;

    Boattini et al 2013
    Most notably, G2a-P15 haplotypes from NWI cluster mainly with German ones, while haplotypes from SEI seem to indicate wider relationships, going from Iberia to the Balkans and the Caucasus.


    Meaning that G2a spread to NW Italy via the Alps (northern route) while G2a in South Italy was spread via Caucasus > Anatolia > Balkans / this prob. indicates the first split ~5400 YBP (3400 BC)

    A cemetery from medieval Bavaria tested largely for G2a;

    This study Niederstätter et al 2012 about East Tyrol [270 samples]
    shows that G2a-P15 = 7.4% in East Tyrol / TableS7;
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e.0041885.s013

    If we now consider also Ötzi [G2a2b-(L91)] and the Neolithic cultures of Remedello I and Mondsee-Altheim which exceeded across the Eastern Alps into the Po Valley [Lake Garda (Brescia)] than G2a-P15 haplotypes from NW Italy clustering mainly with German G2a-P15 haplotypes gets an historic-archaeological frame;
    The Ötzi axe was from Mondsee copper and of the Remedello I axe type!


    Unfortunately Boattini et al 2013 doesnt mention anything on the Sardinian G2a-P15; However, thats a surprising note about Sardinia

    Boattini et al 2013
    On the contrary, I2-M26 samples from Sardinia (SAR) cluster in a separate group than Iberians, suggesting a geographical neat separation between continental and Sardinian I2-M26 lineages.

    ---

    PS: I agree with you on G2a being from Neolithic (older) since it is also 13.4% in Sardinia and also attested by Ötzi,
    meaning G2a being pre-Indo-European;
    Last edited by Nobody1; 06-06-13 at 14:39.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Another possibility is that the R1b-M269 in central and northern Italy came with the Trojans, who according to the legend were the ancestors of the Romans.
    According to Alberto Palmucci, cited by Robert Beekes, the Trojan legend is an Etruscan legend about their own origins. Romans borrowed this legend by the Etruscans (like other many things) and made ​​their own. Virglius (Publius Vergilius Maro) born in Mantua (a city founded by Etruscans, in modern-day Lombardy), known for three major works of Latin literature, the Eclogues (or Bucolics), the Georgics, and the epic Aeneid, had an Etruscan surname, Maro, from Etruscan Maru (Umbrian maron-).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    @ zanipolo

    Concerning G2a-P15 and the Neolithic diversity;

    Boattini et al 2013
    Most notably, G2a-P15 haplotypes from NWI cluster mainly with German ones, while haplotypes from SEI seem to indicate wider relationships, going from Iberia to the Balkans and the Caucasus.


    Meaning that G2a spread to NW Italy via the Alps (northern route) while G2a in South Italy was spread via Caucasus > Anatolia > Balkans / this prob. indicates the first split ~5400 YBP (3400 BC)

    A cemetery from medieval Bavaria tested largely for G2a;
    This study Niederstätter et al 2012 about East Tyrol [270 samples]
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e.0041885.s013

    shows that G2a-P15 = 7.4% in East Tyrol / TableS7;

    If we now consider also Ötzi [G2a2b-(L91)] and the Neolithic cultures of Remedello I and Mondsee-Altheim which exceeded across the Eastern Alps into the Po Valley [Lake Garda (Brescia)] than G2a-P15 haplotypes from NW Italy clustering mainly with German G2a-P15 haplotypes gets an historic-archaeological frame;
    The Ötzi axe was from Mondsee copper and of the Remedello I axe type!


    Unfortunately Boattini et al 2013 doesnt mention anything on the Sardinian G2a-P15; However, thats a surprising note about Sardinia

    Boattini et al 2013
    On the contrary, I2-M26 samples from Sardinia (SAR) cluster in a separate group than Iberians, suggesting a geographical neat separation between continental and Sardinian I2-M26 lineages.

    ---

    PS: I agree with you on G2a being from Neolithic (older) since it is also 13.4% in Sardinia and also attested by Ötzi,
    meaning G2a being pre-Indo-European;

    i stated this before...otzi is G2a4 from the rhaetic people ( vennoes tribe)
    Rhaetic initially came from north caucasus

    Rhaetic tribes most southern outpost was brescia and later cologna veneta with the venetics, these 2 cities was the trade hub with the etruscans. The gallic cenomani took cologna veneta for themselves after the celtic invasion of central north Italy around 500BC

    Most Italians are g2a3 from northern anatolia

    was that german site the one that found 4 of the 6 skeltons to be G ?

    http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Ty...etic_structure

    from link above
    13% G2 in italian south tyrol
    8.5% in German north tyrol
    7.5% in german east-tyrol
    3.3% in bavaria

    alps are full of G2

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post

    http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Ty...etic_structure

    from link above
    13% G2 in italian south tyrol
    8.5% in German north tyrol
    7.5% in german east-tyrol
    3.3% in bavaria

    alps are full of G2
    Exactly,

    i also posted the Niederstätter et al 2012 study about East Tyrol being 7.4% G2a;
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e.0041885.s013

    acc. to Boattini 2013 - G2a-P15 =

    Area I - NW Italy = 8.1%
    Area II - NE Italy = 6.8%
    Area VI - S Italy = 16.2%
    Area VIII - Sardinia = 13.4%

    With NW Italy being closer to the G2a in the Alpine region and S Italy closer to the G2a in Caucasus and Balkans;

    Boattini et al 2013
    Most notably, G2a-P15 haplotypes from NWI cluster mainly with German ones, while haplotypes from SEI seem to indicate wider relationships, going from Iberia to the Balkans and the Caucasus.


    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Rhaetic tribes most southern outpost was brescia and later cologna veneta with the venetics, these 2 cities was the trade hub with the etruscans. The gallic cenomani took cologna veneta for themselves after the celtic invasion of central north Italy around 500BC
    Two fundamental questions;
    Who are the Raeti?
    Who are the Euganei?

    The Raeti emerged out of
    Laugen-Melaun c.
    [1350 BC - 550 BC Urnfield] -> Fritzen-Sanzeno c. [550 BC - Roman times]

    Raetic warriors - Stele of Bormio [4th cen BC] - Bormio, North Italy - Lombardy

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    i stated this before...otzi is G2a4 from the rhaetic people ( vennoes tribe)
    Rhaetic initially came from north caucasus

    Rhaetic tribes most southern outpost was brescia and later cologna veneta with the venetics, these 2 cities was the trade hub with the etruscans. The gallic cenomani took cologna veneta for themselves after the celtic invasion of central north Italy around 500BC

    Most Italians are g2a3 from northern anatolia

    was that german site the one that found 4 of the 6 skeltons to be G ?

    http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Ty...etic_structure

    from link above
    13% G2 in italian south tyrol
    8.5% in German north tyrol
    7.5% in german east-tyrol
    3.3% in bavaria

    alps are full of G2

    According to Diakonoff, Starostin, Ivanov... Etruscan language derived from Northern-Caucasian language. Etruscans and Raetic people shared G2a Y-DNA HG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Exactly,

    i also posted the Niederstätter et al 2012 study about East Tyrol being 7.4% G2a;

    acc. to Boattini 2013 - G2a-P15 =

    Area I - NW Italy = 8.1%
    Area II - NE Italy = 6.8%
    Area VI - S Italy = 16.2%
    Area VIII - Sardinia = 13.4%

    With NW Italy being closer to the G2a in the Alpine region and S Italy closer to the G2a in Caucasus and Balkans;

    Boattini et al 2013
    Most notably, G2a-P15 haplotypes from NWI cluster mainly with German ones, while haplotypes from SEI seem to indicate wider relationships, going from Iberia to the Balkans and the Caucasus.




    Two fundamental questions;
    Who are the Raeti?
    Who are the Euganei?

    The Raeti emerged out of Laugen-Melaun c. -> Fritzen-Sanzeno c. [550 BC - Roman times]

    Raetic warriors - Stele of Bormio [4th cen BC] - Bormio, North Italy - Lombardy


    Raeti are todays tyrolese...........its stated they where related to the venetics , I am unsure. But there was 45 tribes which the romans fought against there is a monument naming all 45 tribes.
    They are said to be originally from north caucasus and have been in the alps at least from at least 6000BC

    Eugenai are the ancient ligures people who inhabited modern veneto and friuli . once conquered by the venetics the ones that stayed became veneti the other moved into the alps. genetics state them as R1b people.
    I only found that they had 4 tribes.
    note- all northern italy was ligures in the middle bronze age

    The carni , a gascon gallic people became the modern friuli people prior to Roman occupation. unsure when they came to Italy.

    there was gallic movement from west to east

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Raeti are todays tyrolese...........its stated they where related to the venetics , I am unsure. But there was 45 tribes which the romans fought against there is a monument naming all 45 tribes.
    They are said to be originally from north caucasus and have been in the alps at least from at least 6000BC

    Eugenai are the ancient ligures people who inhabited modern veneto and friuli . once conquered by the venetics the ones that stayed became veneti the other moved into the alps. genetics state them as R1b people.
    I only found that they had 4 tribes.
    note- all northern italy was ligures in the middle bronze age

    The carni , a gascon gallic people became the modern friuli people prior to Roman occupation. unsure when they came to Italy.

    there was gallic movement from west to east
    Venetics were indoeuropean, not related to Reatic people.

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