Breakdown of R1b subclades in Italy (Boattini et al.)

Turks are not associated with Uzbeks in terms of J2; their J2 is an extension of the Mesopotamian one. I find it interesting that Eneti came from Sasun as hg T owns 20% of males in that Turkish village. As for the Hittites and Trojans, culturally and genetically try where typical middle easterners. There where the Minoans even before the Mycenaeans, both of these people's being of predominantly pelasgian origin. The Dorians probably hellenized them.
 
When the Hittites crumbled dUring the bronze age, small neo-Hittite kingdoms sprung up across Anatolia. Lydia was one of these.
 
Did we actually look at the full text, did we see the ages of the Ydna and its arrival in Italy.
G2 is 15000 years old, next is
R1b at 7000 years old

is ti not logical that G2 came to Italy first even if they arrived in minimal numbers...........or am I missing something with the report?

You are referring to Table2 of the Boattini et al 2013 study;

Table2:
Ages were estimated for the entire haplogroups as well as for each DAPC cluster with at least 10 indivisuals and frequencies >70% in NWI, SEI, or SAR

You highlighted the entire haplogroups age estimates, the DAPC clusters (concerning Italy) reveal younger dates for NW Italy and SE Italy;

---

Concerning the Y-DNA in modern-Italy:

Boattini et al 2013
Significantly different ages were estimated for mtDNA and Y-chromosome systems. mtDNA variability dates back to Paleolithic and supports the existence of an Italian human Refugium during the last glacial maximum whereas Y-chromosome points to the importance that the demographic events happened during the Neolithic and the Metal Ages had in the male Italian patterns of diversity and distribution.

For instance, the dates of several DAPC clusters fall within the range of the Metal Ages (Table 2). During this long period (third and second millennia BC) Italy underwent important technological and social transformations finally leading to the ethnogenesis of the most important proto-historic Italic peoples. On the whole, our results indicate that these transformations, far from being exclusively cultural phenomena, actually involved relevant population events.


So the major impact for Y-DNA Hg within the modern Italian Population came
during the Neolithic and Metal Ages [Chalcolithic>Bronze Age>Iron Age]

With the diversity also stemming from the diff. migrations (of the diff. peoples) from this time range (neolithic-iron age);

Boattini et al 2013

These results suggest that most of the Y-chromosomal diversity present in modern day Italians was originated from few common ancestors living during late Neolithic times and the Early Metal Ages.

BATWING was used to estimate the age of split between the Italian regions identified by the first sPCA (NWI and SEI, excluding SAR). BATWING modelled population growth starting at 12,890 YBP (95% CI: 3,700–83,070), with a rate of 0.00429 (95% CI: 0.00254–0.01219) per year. Our results suggest that the split happened around 5,490 YBP (95% CI: 1,620–26,830).

5,490 YBP = 3400 BC [Neolithic (late)]

something also this study established;
Ralph - Coop et al 2013
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555
 
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@ zanipolo

Concerning G2a-P15 and the Neolithic diversity;

Boattini et al 2013
Most notably, G2a-P15 haplotypes from NWI cluster mainly with German ones, while haplotypes from SEI seem to indicate wider relationships, going from Iberia to the Balkans and the Caucasus.


Meaning that G2a spread to NW Italy via the Alps (northern route) while G2a in South Italy was spread via Caucasus > Anatolia > Balkans / this prob. indicates the first split ~5400 YBP (3400 BC)

A cemetery from medieval Bavaria tested largely for G2a;

This study Niederstätter et al 2012 about East Tyrol [270 samples]
shows that G2a-P15 = 7.4% in East Tyrol / TableS7;
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0041885#pone.0041885.s013

If we now consider also Ötzi [G2a2b-(L91)] and the Neolithic cultures of Remedello I and Mondsee-Altheim which exceeded across the Eastern Alps into the Po Valley [Lake Garda (Brescia)] than G2a-P15 haplotypes from NW Italy clustering mainly with German G2a-P15 haplotypes gets an historic-archaeological frame;
The Ötzi axe was from Mondsee copper and of the Remedello I axe type!


Unfortunately Boattini et al 2013 doesnt mention anything on the Sardinian G2a-P15; However, thats a surprising note about Sardinia

Boattini et al 2013
On the contrary, I2-M26 samples from Sardinia (SAR) cluster in a separate group than Iberians, suggesting a geographical neat separation between continental and Sardinian I2-M26 lineages.

---

PS: I agree with you on G2a being from Neolithic (older) since it is also 13.4% in Sardinia and also attested by Ötzi,
meaning G2a being pre-Indo-European;
 
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Another possibility is that the R1b-M269 in central and northern Italy came with the Trojans, who according to the legend were the ancestors of the Romans.

According to Alberto Palmucci, cited by Robert Beekes, the Trojan legend is an Etruscan legend about their own origins. Romans borrowed this legend by the Etruscans (like other many things) and made ​​their own. Virglius (Publius Vergilius Maro) born in Mantua (a city founded by Etruscans, in modern-day Lombardy), known for three major works of Latin literature, the Eclogues (or Bucolics), the Georgics, and the epic Aeneid, had an Etruscan surname, Maro, from Etruscan Maru (Umbrian maron-).
 
@ zanipolo

Concerning G2a-P15 and the Neolithic diversity;

Boattini et al 2013
Most notably, G2a-P15 haplotypes from NWI cluster mainly with German ones, while haplotypes from SEI seem to indicate wider relationships, going from Iberia to the Balkans and the Caucasus.


Meaning that G2a spread to NW Italy via the Alps (northern route) while G2a in South Italy was spread via Caucasus > Anatolia > Balkans / this prob. indicates the first split ~5400 YBP (3400 BC)

A cemetery from medieval Bavaria tested largely for G2a;
This study Niederstätter et al 2012 about East Tyrol [270 samples]
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0041885#pone.0041885.s013

shows that G2a-P15 = 7.4% in East Tyrol / TableS7;

If we now consider also Ötzi [G2a2b-(L91)] and the Neolithic cultures of Remedello I and Mondsee-Altheim which exceeded across the Eastern Alps into the Po Valley [Lake Garda (Brescia)] than G2a-P15 haplotypes from NW Italy clustering mainly with German G2a-P15 haplotypes gets an historic-archaeological frame;
The Ötzi axe was from Mondsee copper and of the Remedello I axe type!


Unfortunately Boattini et al 2013 doesnt mention anything on the Sardinian G2a-P15; However, thats a surprising note about Sardinia

Boattini et al 2013
On the contrary, I2-M26 samples from Sardinia (SAR) cluster in a separate group than Iberians, suggesting a geographical neat separation between continental and Sardinian I2-M26 lineages.

---

PS: I agree with you on G2a being from Neolithic (older) since it is also 13.4% in Sardinia and also attested by Ötzi,
meaning G2a being pre-Indo-European;


i stated this before...otzi is G2a4 from the rhaetic people ( vennoes tribe)
Rhaetic initially came from north caucasus

Rhaetic tribes most southern outpost was brescia and later cologna veneta with the venetics, these 2 cities was the trade hub with the etruscans. The gallic cenomani took cologna veneta for themselves after the celtic invasion of central north Italy around 500BC

Most Italians are g2a3 from northern anatolia

was that german site the one that found 4 of the 6 skeltons to be G ?

http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Tyrolean_DNA_admixture_and_genetic_structure

from link above
13% G2 in italian south tyrol
8.5% in German north tyrol
7.5% in german east-tyrol
3.3% in bavaria

alps are full of G2
 
http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Tyrolean_DNA_admixture_and_genetic_structure

from link above
13% G2 in italian south tyrol
8.5% in German north tyrol
7.5% in german east-tyrol
3.3% in bavaria

alps are full of G2

Exactly,

i also posted the Niederstätter et al 2012 study about East Tyrol being 7.4% G2a;
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0041885#pone.0041885.s013

acc. to Boattini 2013 - G2a-P15 =

Area I - NW Italy = 8.1%
Area II - NE Italy = 6.8%
Area VI - S Italy = 16.2%
Area VIII - Sardinia = 13.4%

With NW Italy being closer to the G2a in the Alpine region and S Italy closer to the G2a in Caucasus and Balkans;

Boattini et al 2013
Most notably, G2a-P15 haplotypes from NWI cluster mainly with German ones, while haplotypes from SEI seem to indicate wider relationships, going from Iberia to the Balkans and the Caucasus.


Rhaetic tribes most southern outpost was brescia and later cologna veneta with the venetics, these 2 cities was the trade hub with the etruscans. The gallic cenomani took cologna veneta for themselves after the celtic invasion of central north Italy around 500BC

Two fundamental questions;
Who are the Raeti?
Who are the Euganei?

The Raeti emerged out of
Laugen-Melaun c.
[1350 BC - 550 BC Urnfield] -> Fritzen-Sanzeno c. [550 BC - Roman times]

Raetic warriors - Stele of Bormio [4th cen BC] - Bormio, North Italy - Lombardy
raeti1.png
 
i stated this before...otzi is G2a4 from the rhaetic people ( vennoes tribe)
Rhaetic initially came from north caucasus

Rhaetic tribes most southern outpost was brescia and later cologna veneta with the venetics, these 2 cities was the trade hub with the etruscans. The gallic cenomani took cologna veneta for themselves after the celtic invasion of central north Italy around 500BC

Most Italians are g2a3 from northern anatolia

was that german site the one that found 4 of the 6 skeltons to be G ?

http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Tyrolean_DNA_admixture_and_genetic_structure

from link above
13% G2 in italian south tyrol
8.5% in German north tyrol
7.5% in german east-tyrol
3.3% in bavaria

alps are full of G2


According to Diakonoff, Starostin, Ivanov... Etruscan language derived from Northern-Caucasian language. Etruscans and Raetic people shared G2a Y-DNA HG.
 
Exactly,

i also posted the Niederstätter et al 2012 study about East Tyrol being 7.4% G2a;

acc. to Boattini 2013 - G2a-P15 =

Area I - NW Italy = 8.1%
Area II - NE Italy = 6.8%
Area VI - S Italy = 16.2%
Area VIII - Sardinia = 13.4%

With NW Italy being closer to the G2a in the Alpine region and S Italy closer to the G2a in Caucasus and Balkans;

Boattini et al 2013
Most notably, G2a-P15 haplotypes from NWI cluster mainly with German ones, while haplotypes from SEI seem to indicate wider relationships, going from Iberia to the Balkans and the Caucasus.




Two fundamental questions;
Who are the Raeti?
Who are the Euganei?

The Raeti emerged out of Laugen-Melaun c. -> Fritzen-Sanzeno c. [550 BC - Roman times]

Raetic warriors - Stele of Bormio [4th cen BC] - Bormio, North Italy - Lombardy
raeti1.png



Raeti are todays tyrolese...........its stated they where related to the venetics , I am unsure. But there was 45 tribes which the romans fought against there is a monument naming all 45 tribes.
They are said to be originally from north caucasus and have been in the alps at least from at least 6000BC

Eugenai are the ancient ligures people who inhabited modern veneto and friuli . once conquered by the venetics the ones that stayed became veneti the other moved into the alps. genetics state them as R1b people.
I only found that they had 4 tribes.
note- all northern italy was ligures in the middle bronze age

The carni , a gascon gallic people became the modern friuli people prior to Roman occupation. unsure when they came to Italy.

there was gallic movement from west to east
 
Raeti are todays tyrolese...........its stated they where related to the venetics , I am unsure. But there was 45 tribes which the romans fought against there is a monument naming all 45 tribes.
They are said to be originally from north caucasus and have been in the alps at least from at least 6000BC

Eugenai are the ancient ligures people who inhabited modern veneto and friuli . once conquered by the venetics the ones that stayed became veneti the other moved into the alps. genetics state them as R1b people.
I only found that they had 4 tribes.
note- all northern italy was ligures in the middle bronze age

The carni , a gascon gallic people became the modern friuli people prior to Roman occupation. unsure when they came to Italy.

there was gallic movement from west to east

Venetics were indoeuropean, not related to Reatic people.
 
Two fundamental questions;
Who are the Raeti?
Who are the Euganei?

Raetic people were North-Caucasian people, related to Etruscans (Etruscans were a more complex mixture because their many movements East>West and West>East. The migration from Lydia mentioned by Herodotus is only the last migration.)

Euganei were Ancient Ligurians, pre-indoeuropeans (later Ligurians mixed themselves with Celts).

Venetics were indoeuropeans.
 
Raetic people were North-Caucasian people, related to Etruscans (Etruscans were a more complex mixture because their many movements East>West and West>East. The migration from Lydia mentioned by Herodotus is only the last migration.)

Euganei were Ancient Ligurians, pre-indoeuropeans (later Ligurians mixed themselves with Celts).

Venetics were indoeuropeans.

we should continue this discussion in Histories & Civilizations > Who were the Sabines?
 
Boattini et al 2013 - Figure S7. (comparison with other countries)

DAPC analysis pf STRs variation for the most frequent Y-chromosome haplogroups;

1) North-Western Italy (from now on NWI), 2) South-Eastern Italy (from now on SEI), and 3) Sardinia (from now on SAR).
IBE: Iberian Peninsula - BAL: Balkan Peninsula - GER: Central-Europe (Germany) - CAU: Caucasus - WAN: Western Anatolia;


R-U152 R1b1b2a1b4 and its sub-clade R-L2 R1b1b2a1b4c
clusters2.png


G-P15
clusters3.png


G2a - within Italy -
fetchObject.action


Cluster 2, 4, 5 are almost exclusive S Italian
Cluster 3 is the all Italian
Cluster 1 is dominant N Italian
 
Which is ironic because Tyrol/veneto regions peak in G2 and T but not really J2.
 
There's spots of something like 25% hg T in parts of southern Bavaria/Austria/ few cities in veneto, which corresponds to ancient Rhaetia more or less, a mountain extension of Etruscans. Bt then again most people argue the Etruscans where linked to J2.
 
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Maybe there's a link between these Eneti from Samsun (high % T) and raetians of the Tyrol/veneto with their G2 and T
 
Interesting to read: not a very strong link for indo-Europeans in Armenia since most of their R1b is the middle eastern L23 Clade:
Shortly after the arrival of early farmers in Armenia and Anatolia (8 kya), agriculture spread to Greece and the Balkans, before rapidly expanding across Europe.47.Furthermore, the classification of Armenian as an old Indo-European language with similarities to the ancestral Proto-Indo-European languages has led to the supposition that agriculturalists migrating from Armenia into Europe were responsible for the establishment of Indo-European languages in the continent.13, 14 However, despite the close linguistic relationship between Armenians and the Indo-European speaking populations of Europe,12 we see little genetic support for this claim. The derived M412 allele, which is found in nearly all haplogroup R1b1b1*-L23 chromosomes in Europe,27 is absent in the sampled Armenians, which also exhibit a scarcity of haplotype sharing with Europeans, suggesting a limited role for Armenians in the introduction of R1b into Europe.
 
It's almost like a similar sub-branch to the one that would dominate modern west Europeans split off early and headed from central Russia to Armenia; maybe these R1b L-23 men where the Hittite fathers that absorbed J2 men into their ranks. This branch didn't challenge Russia heading into Central Europe and into west Europe, it headed from Russian steppes down to the Middle East and then some of those entered the Balkans from Anatolia at low %.
 
Maciamo, what do you mean by saying L21 is probably Celtic? Is there a different origin possible?
 
L21 is a sub branch of P312, as u152 also is , L21 is found at high frequencies in Ireland, lower frequencies in western England and 5-10% across Brittany province of France. It's really the "Irish" Celtic R1b Clade.
 

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