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Thread: Breakdown of R1b subclades in Italy (Boattini et al.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post

    Two fundamental questions;
    Who are the Raeti?
    Who are the Euganei?
    Raetic people were North-Caucasian people, related to Etruscans (Etruscans were a more complex mixture because their many movements East>West and West>East. The migration from Lydia mentioned by Herodotus is only the last migration.)

    Euganei were Ancient Ligurians, pre-indoeuropeans (later Ligurians mixed themselves with Celts).

    Venetics were indoeuropeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    Raetic people were North-Caucasian people, related to Etruscans (Etruscans were a more complex mixture because their many movements East>West and West>East. The migration from Lydia mentioned by Herodotus is only the last migration.)

    Euganei were Ancient Ligurians, pre-indoeuropeans (later Ligurians mixed themselves with Celts).

    Venetics were indoeuropeans.
    we should continue this discussion in Histories & Civilizations > Who were the Sabines?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Boattini et al 2013 - Figure S7. (comparison with other countries)

    DAPC analysis pf STRs variation for the most frequent Y-chromosome haplogroups;

    1) North-Western Italy (from now on NWI), 2) South-Eastern Italy (from now on SEI), and 3) Sardinia (from now on SAR).
    IBE: Iberian Peninsula - BAL: Balkan Peninsula - GER: Central-Europe (Germany) - CAU: Caucasus - WAN: Western Anatolia;


    R-U152 R1b1b2a1b4 and its sub-clade R-L2 R1b1b2a1b4c


    G-P15


    G2a - within Italy -


    Cluster 2, 4, 5 are almost exclusive S Italian
    Cluster 3 is the all Italian
    Cluster 1 is dominant N Italian

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    Which is ironic because Tyrol/veneto regions peak in G2 and T but not really J2.

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    There's spots of something like 25% hg T in parts of southern Bavaria/Austria/ few cities in veneto, which corresponds to ancient Rhaetia more or less, a mountain extension of Etruscans. Bt then again most people argue the Etruscans where linked to J2.
    Last edited by adamo; 06-06-13 at 23:04.

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    Maybe there's a link between these Eneti from Samsun (high % T) and raetians of the Tyrol/veneto with their G2 and T

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    Interesting to read: not a very strong link for indo-Europeans in Armenia since most of their R1b is the middle eastern L23 Clade:
    Shortly after the arrival of early farmers in Armenia and Anatolia (8 kya), agriculture spread to Greece and the Balkans, before rapidly expanding across Europe.47.Furthermore, the classification of Armenian as an old Indo-European language with similarities to the ancestral Proto-Indo-European languages has led to the supposition that agriculturalists migrating from Armenia into Europe were responsible for the establishment of Indo-European languages in the continent.13, 14 However, despite the close linguistic relationship between Armenians and the Indo-European speaking populations of Europe,12 we see little genetic support for this claim. The derived M412 allele, which is found in nearly all haplogroup R1b1b1*-L23 chromosomes in Europe,27 is absent in the sampled Armenians, which also exhibit a scarcity of haplotype sharing with Europeans, suggesting a limited role for Armenians in the introduction of R1b into Europe.

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    It's almost like a similar sub-branch to the one that would dominate modern west Europeans split off early and headed from central Russia to Armenia; maybe these R1b L-23 men where the Hittite fathers that absorbed J2 men into their ranks. This branch didn't challenge Russia heading into Central Europe and into west Europe, it headed from Russian steppes down to the Middle East and then some of those entered the Balkans from Anatolia at low %.

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    Maciamo, what do you mean by saying L21 is probably Celtic? Is there a different origin possible?

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    L21 is a sub branch of P312, as u152 also is , L21 is found at high frequencies in Ireland, lower frequencies in western England and 5-10% across Brittany province of France. It's really the "Irish" Celtic R1b Clade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Maybe there's a link between these Eneti from Samsun (high % T) and raetians of the Tyrol/veneto with their G2 and T
    where did you get this Samsun is T ?

    The present name of the city may come from its former Greek name of Amisos by a shortening of Eis Amisos (meaning to Amisos) + ounta (Greek suffix for place names) to Sampsunda (Σαμψούντα) and then Samsun[1] (pronounced [sɑmsun]).

    The early Greek historian Hecataeus wrote that Amisos was formerly called Enete, the place mentioned in Homer's Iliad.
    During the Ottoman Empire the present name was written in Ottoman Turkish:
    صامسون

    .....................................
    Eneti or Heneti or Enete is the name of an ancient region close to Paphlagonia mentioned by Strabo whose original inhabitants had disappeared by his time.[1]
    References

    • ^ Strab. 12.3 Tieium is a town that has nothing worthy of mention except that Philetaerus, the founder of the family of Attalic Kings, was from there. Then comes the Parthenius River, which flows through flowery districts and on this account came by its name;10 it has its sources in Paphlagonia itself. And then comes Paphlagonia and the Eneti. Writers question whom the poet means by "the Eneti," when he says,“And the rugged heart of Pylaemenes led the Paphlagonians, from the land of the Eneti, whence the breed of wild mules; ”11for at the present time, they say, there are no Eneti to be seen in Paphlagonia, though some say that there is a village12 on the Aegialus13 ten schoeni14 distant from Amastris. But Zenodotus writes "from Enete,"15 and says that Homer clearly indicates the Amisus of today. And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea.16 But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country,17 as it is now called. According to some writers, Antenor and his children took part in this expedition and settled at the recess of the Adriatic, as mentioned by me in my account of Italy.18 It is therefore reasonable to suppose that it was on this account that the Eneti disappeared and are not to be seen in Paphlagonia. [9]



    .................................................. ...............................

    Samsun was called Amisos and before that was called Enete

    the locals where cimmerains, mixed with thracian and pontic Greeks, they where mingled later with kaskians and cappodacians
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaskians
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Boattini et al 2013 - Figure S7. (comparison with other countries)

    DAPC analysis pf STRs variation for the most frequent Y-chromosome haplogroups;

    1) North-Western Italy (from now on NWI), 2) South-Eastern Italy (from now on SEI), and 3) Sardinia (from now on SAR).
    IBE: Iberian Peninsula - BAL: Balkan Peninsula - GER: Central-Europe (Germany) - CAU: Caucasus - WAN: Western Anatolia;


    R-U152 R1b1b2a1b4 and its sub-clade R-L2 R1b1b2a1b4c


    G-P15


    G2a - within Italy -


    Cluster 2, 4, 5 are almost exclusive S Italian
    Cluster 3 is the all Italian
    Cluster 1 is dominant N Italian

    And what is your conclusion

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    where did you get this Samsun is T ?

    The present name of the city may come from its former Greek name of Amisos by a shortening of Eis Amisos (meaning to Amisos) + ounta (Greek suffix for place names) to Sampsunda (Σαμψούντα) and then Samsun[1] (pronounced [sɑmsun]).

    The early Greek historian Hecataeus wrote that Amisos was formerly called Enete, the place mentioned in Homer's Iliad.
    During the Ottoman Empire the present name was written in Ottoman Turkish:
    صامسون

    .....................................
    Eneti or Heneti or Enete is the name of an ancient region close to Paphlagonia mentioned by Strabo whose original inhabitants had disappeared by his time.[1]
    References


    • ^ Strab. 12.3 Tieium is a town that has nothing worthy of mention except that Philetaerus, the founder of the family of Attalic Kings, was from there. Then comes the Parthenius River, which flows through flowery districts and on this account came by its name;10 it has its sources in Paphlagonia itself. And then comes Paphlagonia and the Eneti. Writers question whom the poet means by "the Eneti," when he says,“And the rugged heart of Pylaemenes led the Paphlagonians, from the land of the Eneti, whence the breed of wild mules; ”11for at the present time, they say, there are no Eneti to be seen in Paphlagonia, though some say that there is a village12 on the Aegialus13 ten schoeni14 distant from Amastris. But Zenodotus writes "from Enete,"15 and says that Homer clearly indicates the Amisus of today. And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea.16 But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country,17 as it is now called. According to some writers, Antenor and his children took part in this expedition and settled at the recess of the Adriatic, as mentioned by me in my account of Italy.18 It is therefore reasonable to suppose that it was on this account that the Eneti disappeared and are not to be seen in Paphlagonia. [9]



    .................................................. ...............................

    Samsun was called Amisos and before that was called Enete

    the locals where cimmerains, mixed with thracian and pontic Greeks, they where mingled later with kaskians and cappodacians
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaskians

    Kaskians also disappeared at the time of the trojan wars 1187BC

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    Well Samsun, this ancient Eneti you speak of has 20% haplogroup T in that Turkish town.

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    And in Tyrol regions of southern Bavaria/Austria hg T can reach 25% frequencies in certain isolated zones. Also, G2 peaks in those regions and veneto as well , all in link with Raetia zone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    And what is your conclusion
    Since these are DAPC analysis of STRs variation for the most frequent Y-chromosome haplogroups; i conclude that its very precise and accurate, and informative;

    But my conclusions are limited to my observations;
    Concerning R1b-U152 R1b1b2a1b4 and its sub-clade L-2 R1b1b2a1b4c
    I observe a more or less even distribution amongst the clustering groups;

    U152:
    cluster 4 seems the all European cluster
    cluster 2 seems the all Italian and most dominant Iberian cluster
    cluster 1 and 3 being the dominant N Italian and most dominant German clusters;

    Manifesting my assumption of a common archaic Indo-European stock that branched out within Europe;
    One branch being the Indo-Europen Italics
    [Po Valley / Tuscany -dominant and S Italy -significant]
    The other branch being a significant part of the Indo-European Kelts [Gauls]
    [Switzerland / Upper Rhine / Alsace-Lorraine -dominant and other
    regions of West Europe and Britain -significant]

    Myres et al 2011
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3039512/

    Specifically, S116*(xU152, M529) occurrence is maximal in Iberia (Figure 1j), whereas the U152 branch is most frequent (20–44%) in Switzerland, Italy, France and Western Poland, with additional instances exceeding 15% in some regions of England and Germany (Figure 1l).


    such a common root is also attested by Linguistics; - post#4 and Archaeology [Swiss lake dwellings / Urnfield c. complex]

    something also cluster 4 of R-L2 R1b1b2a1b4c indicates, being almost exclusively N Italian and German;
    I would imagine? the German samples of U-152 and L2 being largely from the Upper Rhine area;

    Niederstätter et al 2012 - has 12.5% R1b-U152 in East Tyrol [270 samples]
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e.0041885.s013

    ---

    concerning G2a-P15; also just the obvious observations;
    In Europe cluster 6 seems to be the Dominant cluster of N Italy and Germany, where as cluster 5 being the dominant cluster for S Italy and Iberia, with cluster 3 linking S Italy with the Balkans and the Caucasus;

    within Italy [G2a] there are clusters that are dominant (almost exclusive) in South one cluster dominant in all Italy and one cluster dominant in N Italy;

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    I would like to Highlight Lombardy out of Area I; concerning R1b-U106

    Lombardy = 80 samples [Brescia 39 / Como 41]

    U-106 = 6.2% in Lombardy
    Area I (in total) = 3.1% - due to Savona, Genoa and Cuneo all 0%;

    U-106 in Area I is exclusively in Lombardy - Indicating the Germanic Langobarden lineage;
    Which is also manifested by Archaeology - Langobarden sites are absent in Liguria and Cuneo province
    - but plenty in Lombardy;



    U-152
    on the other hand is equally strong:
    Lombardy = 36.2% [80 samples Brescai/Como]
    Liguria + Piedmont = 28.3% [81 samples Savona/Genoa/Cuneo]

    Indicating the common Bronze age lineage [Umbrian/Ligurian]


    Boattini et al 2013
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441

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    U152 is not equally strong as u106 in Lombardy, there's some 6 times more u152 than u106.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    I would like to Highlight Lombardy out of Area I; concerning R1b-U106

    Lombardy = 80 samples [Brescia 39 / Como 41]

    U-106 = 6.2% in Lombardy
    Area I (in total) = 3.1% - due to Savona, Genoa and Cuneo all 0%;

    U-106 in Area I is exclusively in Lombardy - Indicating the Germanic Langobarden lineage;
    Which is also manifested by Archaeology - Langobarden sites are absent in Liguria and Cuneo province
    - but plenty in Lombardy;



    U-152
    on the other hand is equally strong:
    Lombardy = 36.2% [80 samples Brescai/Como]
    Liguria + Piedmont = 28.3% [81 samples Savona/Genoa/Cuneo]

    Indicating the common Bronze age lineage [Umbrian/Ligurian]


    Boattini et al 2013
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441
    these are the numbers for austrian tyrol area in regards to U106

    • Tyrolean Alps Y-chromosome Variability, sample evaluation, collection of 3.800 blood samples begins in Jan. 2007, project description, German Project Site: historisch-genetischer Hintergrund Tirol
    • Frequency Y-chromosome Tyrolean district of Reutte, Erhart, Berger, Niederstätter et al. 2012 (261 samples, 17 Y-STRs, 19 Y-SNPs)
      R1b-U106/S21 20,9%, R1b-M269* 13,6%, R1b-U152/S28 12,4%, I1-M253 10,5%, G2a-P15 8,5%, E1b-M78 8,1%, J-M304 8,1%, R1a-M17 7,8%, I2-M223 2,7%, I2-P37.2 2,7%, K-M9* (LT, NO) 0,8%, P-M45* (Q) 0,8%, G-M201* 0,4%, I-M170* 0,4%, R1-M173*
    • East Tyrolean Dissection of Y Chromosome Variation, Niederstätter, Rampl, Erhart, Pitterl, Oberacher et al. 2012 (270 samples, 17 Y-STRs, 27 Y-SNPs)
      R1b-U106/S21 18,9%, I1-M253 15,9%, R1a-M17 14,1%, R1b-U152/S28 12,6%, J-M304 8,9%, G2a-P15 7,4%, R1b-M412/S167* 4,8%, E1b-M78 4,4%, R1b-S116* 3,0%, I2-M223 2,6 %, R1b-L23/S141* 1,9%
    • Tyrol Y-SNPs Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b, Niederstätter et al. 2008 (135 individuals)
      R1b-U106/S21 60%, R1b-U152/S28 21%, R1b-U198 2%, R1b* 19%


    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...7517680800187X

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    these are the numbers for austrian tyrol area in regards to U106

    • Frequency Y-chromosome Tyrolean district of Reutte, Erhart, Berger, Niederstätter et al. 2012 (261 samples, 17 Y-STRs, 19 Y-SNPs)
      R1b-U106/S21 20,9%, R1b-M269* 13,6%, R1b-U152/S28 12,4%, I1-M253 10,5%, G2a-P15 8,5%, E1b-M78 8,1%, J-M304 8,1%, R1a-M17 7,8%, I2-M223 2,7%, I2-P37.2 2,7%, K-M9* (LT, NO) 0,8%, P-M45* (Q) 0,8%, G-M201* 0,4%, I-M170* 0,4%, R1-M173*
    • East Tyrolean Dissection of Y Chromosome Variation, Niederstätter, Rampl, Erhart, Pitterl, Oberacher et al. 2012 (270 samples, 17 Y-STRs, 27 Y-SNPs)
      R1b-U106/S21 18,9%, I1-M253 15,9%, R1a-M17 14,1%, R1b-U152/S28 12,6%, J-M304 8,9%, G2a-P15 7,4%, R1b-M412/S167* 4,8%, E1b-M78 4,4%, R1b-S116* 3,0%, I2-M223 2,6 %, R1b-L23/S141* 1,9%


    Reutte
    [North Tyrol] 261 samples: R1bU-106 = 20.9% / I1-M253 = 10.5% - Erhart 2012
    East Tyrol 270 samples: R1bU-106 = 18.9% / I1-M253 = 15.9% - Niederstätter 2012

    This clearly underlines the dominant Germanic lineage amongst Tyroleans;
    Interesting about Tyrolean is that they are split between Bajuwarisch and Alemannisch (mundart);
    Rhaeto-Romanic only exists in South Tyrol;

    But its equally interesting to note the Neolithic and Bronze age [Urnfield] lineages;

    Reutte [North Tyrol] 261 samples: G2a = 8.5% / R1bU-152 = 12.4% - Erhart 2012
    East Tyrol 270 samples: G2a = 7.4% / R1bU-152 = 12.6% - Niederstätter 2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    [/LIST]

    Reutte
    [North Tyrol] 261 samples: R1bU-106 = 20.9% / I1-M253 = 10.5% - Erhart 2012
    East Tyrol 270 samples: R1bU-106 = 18.9% / I1-M253 = 15.9% - Niederstätter 2012

    This clearly underlines the dominant Germanic lineage amongst Tyroleans;
    Interesting about Tyrolean is that they are split between Bajuwarisch and Alemannisch (mundart);
    Rhaeto-Romanic only exists in South Tyrol;

    But its equally interesting to note the Neolithic and Bronze age [Urnfield] lineages;

    Reutte [North Tyrol] 261 samples: G2a = 8.5% / R1bU-152 = 12.4% - Erhart 2012
    East Tyrol 270 samples: G2a = 7.4% / R1bU-152 = 12.6% - Niederstätter 2012
    you notice in link below the tyrolese closest admixture relative are Romanians , followed by North-Italians and Greeks are the furthest away...........clearly they did not come from the Med.

    http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Da...TiGenID006.png

    romanians.......er..ancient Thracians ( be them Dacians, Getae or ??? )

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    you notice in link below the tyrolese closest admixture relative are Romanians , followed by North-Italians and Greeks are the furthest away...........clearly they did not come from the Med.

    http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Da...TiGenID006.png

    romanians.......er..ancient Thracians ( be them Dacians, Getae or ??? )
    and if this would be from a proper scientific source i would take it seriously,
    since its from Dodecad (the anonymous internet blogger) hardly a scientific ref.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    L21 is a sub branch of P312, as u152 also is , L21 is found at high frequencies in Ireland, lower frequencies in western England and 5-10% across Brittany province of France. It's really the "Irish" Celtic R1b Clade.
    It may be found at high levels in Ireland but highest variance is seen in L21 samples from the continent particulary from France. The figures for North-West France in that study put L21+ at 40% this would specifically include Brittany. Of course one thing that Ireland and Brittany have in common is that both of them were majority "Insular Celtic" speaking regions 250 years ago. The figures I've seen for the 1760's put Irish language usage at between 66% and 75% of the population. With English usage only exceeding 50% around the time of the Act of Union in 1801.

    Busby paper on M269 in Europe gives the following for France (I've exclude samples with less then 45 men in them)
    North West France (n=115)

    • L21+ = 40% (n=46)


    South East France (n=45)

    • L21+ = 11.11% (n=5)


    North France (n=68)

    • L21+ = 10.29% (n=7)


    North Central France (n=91)
    • L21+ = 9.89% (n=9)


    Vaucluse (Upstream Rhone) (n=61)
    • L21+ = 8.2% (n=5)


    South West France (n=83)
    • L21+ = 7.23% (n=6)


    Bouches Du Rhone (At Mouth) (n=207)
    • L21+ = 6.28% (n=13)


    East France (n=80)
    • L21+ = 5% (n=4)


    South Central France (n=89)

    • L21+ = 4.49% (n=4)


    Var (Coastal, E Of Rhone) (n=68)

    • L21+ = 2.94% (n=2)


    The lowest level found in England was in the "East England" sample which came in at 12.8% about half the U106 level. However there is an obvious East->West Cline with levels hitting 40.4% in NW England and 37.5% in Southwest England.

    In same study in Spain we see figures such as:
    East Spain C (Catalonia?) (n=177)

    • L21+ = 8.47% (n=15)


    East Spain V (Valencia?) (n=168)

    • L21+ = 7.14% (n=12)


    Cantabria, Santander (n=131)

    • L21+ = 5.34% (n=7)


    One of reason why Spain is interesting in this regard is that one of the major subclades of L21 was found in samples of Iberian origin in the america's (South American and Mexican American). This snp been Z253 (L21+ -> DF13+ -> Z253+), this of course is the parent SNP for L226 (that defines "Irish Type III" cluster).



    -Paul
    (DF41+)

  24. #74
    Regular Member Nobody1's Avatar
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    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post

    In same study in Spain we see figures such as:
    East Spain C (Catalonia?) (n=177)

    • L21+ = 8.47% (n=15)


    East Spain V (Valencia?) (n=168)

    • L21+ = 7.14% (n=12)


    Cantabria, Santander (n=131)

    • L21+ = 5.34% (n=7)


    One of reason why Spain is interesting in this regard is that one of the major subclades of L21 was found in samples of Iberian origin in the america's (South American and Mexican American). This snp been Z253 (L21+ -> DF13+ -> Z253+), this of course is the parent SNP for L226 (that defines "Irish Type III" cluster).



    -Paul
    (DF41+)
    I posted it before, and i will post it again;
    Míl Espáine - a folklore that is much revealing;
    also in connection with Q-Celtic being only Gaelic and Celt-Iberians;
    Seems like Genetics is now rounding it of;

    Yes, the only place in England with low levels of L21 is the SE Coast; recorded by Julius Caesar to be inhabitant by the Gallic Belgae -
    also the area with the highest R1b-U152 in all Britain;

  25. #75
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    02-07-10
    Posts
    83

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-L21

    Ethnic group
    Irish
    Country: Ireland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    I posted it before, and i will post it again;
    Míl Espáine - a folklore that is much revealing;
    also in connection with Q-Celtic being only Gaelic and Celt-Iberians;
    Seems like Genetics is now rounding it of;

    Yes, the only place in England with low levels of L21 is the SE Coast; recorded by Julius Caesar to be inhabitant by the Gallic Belgae -
    also the area with the highest R1b-U152 in all Britain;
    Míl Espáine is "pseudo-history" created by the synthetic historians in the 8th century. There is no mention of him before then and his name is a calque from latin (literally meaning "Spanish soldier") -- in other words it's all just a pile of rubbish connocted for political reasons to reflect the status-quo politically in Ireland at the time.

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

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