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Thread: Breakdown of R1b subclades in Italy (Boattini et al.)

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    Míl Espáine is "pseudo-history" created by the synthetic historians in the 8th century. There is no mention of him before then and his name is a calque from latin (literally meaning "Spanish soldier") -- in other words it's all just a pile of rubbish connocted for political reasons to reflect the status-quo politically in Ireland at the time.

    -Paul
    (DF41+)
    Its not History at all, its just Folklore;

    But there is always a structure of truth and reason behind every Folklore stories;

    The Evidence that Q-Celtic (exclusive Gaelic - C. Iberian) strengthens its even more;

    And now Genetics, as you demonstrated;


    PS: Which Busby study are you referring to concerning France?

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    I see a problem with the map of R1b on this site in what concerns central Italy. There's a 40-50% coat of R1b extending into central Italy, not 25% in the Umbria/Marche region, its more like 40-45% in those regions.

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    On the italian peninsula, R1b frequencies peak in the north, in Lombardia, the Germanic Trentino-Alto Adige region, parts of Emilia-Romagna,Liguria and a very small fraction of Toscana. About 50-80% of all the males from these regions are paternally R1b. This territory is similar genetically to Celtic countries such as England,Ireland,France or Germany. Most if that R1b is of the U152 subclade though so northern Italy is like a magnified Switzerland,France or Belgium to be more precise, as these are the regions were R1b u152 is most frequent. Then 36-50% of the males from Piemonte, Valle D'Aosta, Veneto on the other side, Tuscan, Umbrian, Abruzzo, Marche, Lazio; all these regions some in the north, extending well into central Italy have 35-50% R1b. In Genoa (Liguria) for example, 48% of males are R1b. The frequencies are similar 45-50% for Veneto. There are regions if central Italy such as Pescara and Avezzano were 40-45% of men are R1b, the highest frequencies in the extreme are in Altamura were 40% of men are R1b. Everything (including) under Campania and Molise has 25-30% R1b only including Sicily. In the north, Piemonte has 53% R1b, Liguria has 52%. At Lago Como in north-west Lombardy, 54% of men are R1b. At Brescia I north-eastern Lombardy, 65% of men are R1b. In Emilia-Romagna frequencies are at 60% on average. The west-central region of Veneto is surprising though, as the city of Vicenza has only 30% R1b. But Treviso in the east has 54% R1b. The "La Spezia-Massa" region of northwest Tuscany has an italian high with 71% R1b. Pistoia has 61% R1b and the Grosseto-Siena region has 50%. In Foligno, Umbria 38-40% of men are R1b. In Macerata, Marche 38-40% of men are R1b as well. Approaching the south, this is were frequencies begin to fall off dramatically. L'Aquila has 35% r1b, Campobasso has only 25%, Benevento has 34%, Mater has only 8%, Lecce has 26%, Cosenza has 30%, in southwest Sicily 20% of men are R1b in the east 33% are.

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    Italy's R1a frequencies are virtually absent. A high of about 10% is experienced in the Veneto region nearest to Slovenia. Another 10% high is found on the southernmost tip of Apulia. Haplogroup I peaks in the Foggia region at just under 20%. The next highs are 13% in central Apulia and south-central Basilicata. There are frequencies of 9% in central campania and in the L'Aquila region of central Italy. E3b peaks in the Altamura region at 36%. Frequencies across Basilicata and Apulia are of 20-25%. Tip of Calabria has 27%. Campobasso and Genoa (Liguria) regions have 25% E3b. G2 peaks at 15-20% in southern Campania (Salerno) and in the Foggia region. 10% also found in central campania, tip of Apulia and the Liguria region. J peaks in the Foggia region of northern Apulia and in Paola central Calabria (45%). The next highest frequencies are near Molise 38%, and in the tip of Calabria (36%). The L'Aquila/Pescara region of central Italy has 30-35% hg J. southern Apulia has 25% J, the north has the countries and europe's highest J frequencies (40-45%). Lazio has about 20% J and the Veneto region about 25%.

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    On average, R1b frequencies are about 40-50% in the north, and 20-30% in the south but can range from over 70% in the north to about 20% or slightly more in the south. Overall, Neolithic lineages (J,E3b,G excluding T) cover almost half of italian men (47%). As for the three Mediterranean islands Sardinia Corsica and Sicily, Sicily has the highest Neolithic influence (at least 37% of males) as compared to Corsica an Sardinia (15-17%) Corsica has the most E3b (almost all it's Neolithic component) and Sardinia as well than Sicily, but Sicily was found to be a treasure trove of J. Sicily even has 12% F* lineages (compared to Sardinia/Corsica's less than 3-5%) , definitely indicative of ancient arrival of middle easterners,such as Phoenicians, probably by sea. As for the island of Sardinia, it differs of course, in it's extremely high frequencies of a sub-group of Balkanic I1b1-P37. This indicates an early contact between Sardinia in particular and blood from the Balkans. Corsicans differ in that 50% of them are R1b (MUCH u152 here) and only 25% of SARDINIANS/Sicilians have R1b.

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    During the late bronze age period , The Villanovan culture of Tuscany popped up out of a southern extension of the Urnfield culture, this is known sure.

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    Archeologically, there are two attested phases regarding the geographic spread of the Linearbandkeramik (LBK). The first phase extended to the upper Danube river near Munich. The second phase extended further to the Paris basin. Furthermore, there is evidence of several post-LBK Neolithic expansions, ca 6000 years BP from the Paris basin region toward Northern Italy, Southern France and Iberia.

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    A culture that in my opinion was the Halstatt period centred near Halstatt or Munich later developed into a culture that slowly migrated westwards until reaching the Paris basin region. From here multiple expansions took place aimed at Northern Italy, Southern France (Aquitaine) and Spain. It's would be well represented by the movements of the P312/S116 Italo-Celtic branch of the Celtic R1b y-DNA marker.

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    The early Halstatt culture culminated with an expansion into the later one followed by the creation of the succeeding la tene culture near the French/German border region. La tene culture would infiltrate all of France and parts of Italy, Spain and Portugal. Sons of these men would eventually reach Ireland in large numbers.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    proly R1B

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have counted the samples for each R1b subclade in the new study of Italian Y-chromosomes by Boattini et al. and calculated the percentages for R1b for each province.

    The two most interesting R1b subclades in Italy are R1b-U152, which I believe to be associated with the Italic migrations, and R1b-M269 (which also includes L23, not tested in this study), which is generally found in Greece, Anatolia and the Balkans, and can be linked to the Etruscan (in the northern half) and Greek (in the southern half) colonisations of the Italian peninsula. Both the Greeks and the Etruscans carried many other Y-DNA haplogroups alongside R1b-M269, mainly E1b1b, G2a and J2. Italic people were essentially R1b-U152, but probably also had some R1b-P312 and G2a, and perhaps even J2b and R1a.

    [EDIT:] It is also possible that M269 or L23 came with the Trojans after the destruction of Troy by the Greeks circa 1200 BCE. According to the legend, some Trojans escaped to Italy and became the ancestors of the Romans. Another candidate for the Trojan haplogroup is R1b-U152 itself, as U152 is generally associated with the expansion of the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures, which suddenly started around 1200 BCE, just after the destruction of Troy. Did the Trojans found the Hallstatt culture in addition to Rome ? It's not excluded.

    In my opinion, the Romans, who had mixed Italic, Etruscan and Greek origins, carried both U152 and M269 lineages. However, by looking at the European-wide distribution of both lineages, it seems that the Romans carried far more U152 than M269, since U152 can be found all over the former Roman Empire, generally at frequencies of minimum 5% in places like Iberia, Britain, the Rhineland, the Balkans, Romania, and Greece. U152 is much rarer in parts of Europe that had no Roman connection, such as Ireland, Scandinavia or Northeast Europe. It is also found in North Africa (1 to 5%). M269, on the other hand, is really typical of the territory of Magna Graecia, and only occasionally found in Western Europe (less than 1%).


    North Italy

    In Cuneo, south-west Piedmont, 16 out of 30 samples are R1b (53.5%). Among them we find eleven Italic U152 (36.5%), three Celtic P312 (10%), and one probably Celtic L21. M269 = 0%.

    In Savona/Genova, central Liguria, 26 out of 50 samples are R1b (52%). Among them we find eleven Italic U152 (22%), ten Celtic P312 (20%), three Greco-Etruscan M269 (6%), and one probably Celtic L21.

    In Como, north-west Lombardy, 22 out of 41 samples are R1b (53.5%). Among them we find nine Italic U152 (22%), four Celtic P312 (10%), four Greco-Etruscan M269 (9.5%), three Germanic U106 (incl. one L48), and two Celtic SRY2627.

    In Brescia, north-east Lombardy, 25 out of 39 samples are R1b (64%). Among them we find twenty Italic U152 (51% !), two Celtic P312, one Germanic L48, and one probably Celtic L21. M269 = 0%.

    In Vicenza, central-west Veneto, 12 out of 40 samples are R1b (30%). Among them we find four Italic U152 (22%), three Celtic P312, two Germanic U106 (incl. one L48), two Greco-Etruscan M269 (11%), and one Middle Eastern M343.

    In Treviso, central-east Veneto, 16 out of 30 samples are R1b (53.5%). Among them we find ten Italic U152 (33.5%, incl. eight L2), three Greco-Etruscan M269 (10%), two Germanic L48, and one Celtic P312.

    In Bologna, central Emilia-Romagna, 17 out of 29 samples are R1b (58.5%). Among them we find nine Italic U152 (31%), three probably Celtic L21, two Greco-Etruscan M269 (7%), two Celtic P312, and one Germanic L48.


    Unsurprisingly, M269 is higher around the Po Valley, which was part of Etruria, but absent from western Piedmont, which had no Etruscan or Greek connection.


    Central Italy

    In La Spezia-Massa, north-west Tuscany, 17 out of 24 samples are R1b (71%). Among them we find nine Italic U152 (37.5%), four Celtic P312, two probably Celtic L21, and two Greco-Etruscan M269 (8.5%).

    In Pistoia, central-north Tuscany, 8 out of 13 samples are R1b (61.5%). Among them we find five Italic U152 (38.5%), one Celtic P312, one Germanic U106, and one Greco-Etruscan M269 (7.5%).

    In Grosetto-Siena, southern Tuscany, only 42 out of 86 samples are R1b (49%). Among them we find 32 Italic U152 (37%), five Greco-Etruscan M269 (6%), four Germanic U106 (incl. one L48), and one Celtic P312.

    In Foligno, central-east Umbria, 14 out of 37 samples are R1b (38%). Among them we find nine Italic U152 (24.5%), two Greco-Etruscan M269 (5.5%), two Celtic P312, and one Germanic L48.

    In Macerata, central-east Marche, 15 out of 40 samples are R1b (37.5%). Among them we find six Italic U152 (15%), four Celtic P312, three Greco-Etruscan M269 (7.5%), one Middle Eastern M343, and one Germanic U106.


    The highest frequency of R1b-U152 in Italy, or indeed anywhere in the world, is found in Tuscany, Emilia and southern Lombardy, a region corresponding fairly well to ancient Etruria.


    South Italy

    In southern Italy the percentage of R1b-U152 falls dramatically.

    In L'Aquila, Abruzzo, 8 out of 23 samples are R1b (35%). Among them we find three Italic U152 (13%), two Greco-Etruscan M269 (8.5%), one Celtic P312, one Germanic U106, and one Proto-Celto-Germanic P311. L'Aquila was founded by Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor, and three samples could indeed be of German origin (one I2b1, one R1a, and one R1b-U106).

    In Campobasso, Molise, 7 out of 29 samples are R1b (24%). Among them we find three Germanic U106 (incl. one L48), two Italic U152 (8%), one Greco-Etruscan M269 (4%), and one probably Celtic L21. The percentage of Germanic haplogroups is far higher, unsurprisingly since Campobasso was founded by the Lombards: four I1 samples (16%), three R1b-U106 (12%) and one I2b1 (4%). So a total of 32% of Germanic lineages (possibly more if we add one R1b-L21 that could also be Germanic).

    In Benevento, Campania, 12 out of 36 samples are R1b (33.5%). Among them we find five Greek M269 (14%), two Italic U152 (5.5%), two Celtic P312, one probably Celtic L21, one Celtic SRY2627. Benevento was the seat of a powerful Lombard duchy, and 11% of the male lineages appear to be Germanic: two R1a1, one I1d, one R1b-L48.

    In Matera, Basilicata, 2 samples out of 25 are R1b (8%). One is a Greek M269 (4%) and the other an Italic U152 (4%).

    In Lecce, Apulia, 10 out of 39 samples are R1b (25.5%). Among them we find three Greek M269 (7%), three Italic U152 (7%), two Celtic P312, one probably Celtic L21, and one Germanic L48.

    In Cosenza/Catanzaro/Crotone, Calabria, 11 out of 38 samples were R1b (29%). Among them we find six Italic U152 (15.5%), three Greek M269 (8%), one Germanic L48 and one Celtic P312.

    In Catania, eastern Sicily, 22 out of 62 samples are R1b (35.5%). Among them were nine Greek M269 (14.5%), three Celtic P312, six Germanic U106 (including three L48), two probably Celtic L21, one Celtic SRY2627, and only one Italic U152 (1.5%).

    In Ragusa, southeast Sicily, 10 out of 44 samples are R1b (24%). Among them were five Italic U152 (12%), one Greek M269 (2.5%), two Germanic U106 (including one L48), one probably Celtic L21, and one Celtic P312.

    In Agrigento, southwest Sicily, 9 out of 42 samples are R1b (21.5%). Among them were five Italic U152 (12%) three Greek M269 (7%), and one Celtic P312.

    In Olbia/Tempio/Nuoro, north-east Sardinia, 11 out of 40 samples are R1b (27.5%). Among them were five Italic U152 (12.5%) three Greek M269 (7.5%), one Middle Eastern M343, one Celtic P312, and one Celtic SRY2627.

    In Oristano, central-west Sardinia, 7 out of 42 samples are R1b (16.5%). Among them were three Italic U152 (7%) two Greek M269 (4.5%), and two Middle Eastern M18.


    What we observe is a remarkable consistency in the minimum levels of U152 across southern Italy, with frequencies generally oscillating between 7% and 12%. Only Catania has very little U152 (1.5%), but it may be due to the sampling. The tip of Calabria just across the Strait of Messina has 15.5%, so the average of the two is nevertheless 8.5%.

    M269 reaches the highest frequency around major Greek colonies, like in Benevento (Naples) and Catania.

    Only the Italic U152 and the Greco-Etruscan M269 are found throughout the Italian peninsula. Celtic and Germanic clades are irregularly dispersed and found generally in places with known Celtic or Germanic connections. The fact that U152 is present everywhere, even in Sardinia, is a clear sign that U152 was spread by the Romans well after the Italic migrations (since Italic people never settled in Sardinia).

    It's a real shame that there are no samples for the Latium in this study. This would have been highly illuminating regarding the percentage of Italic vs Etruscan/Greek ancestry among the Romans.
    Maciamo,no offense,but:
    People ruling Roman Empire were called Latins,if we want to be precise,not "Italic".
    Indeed they were belonging to the larger group of Italic people,as Sardinians,Siclians and others are.
    But their very specific name was Latins.
    They conquered at the start the other Italic tribes.
    Italic were and are Sardinians also.
    Latins were coming from the area called Latium. Now that are is called Lazio.
    I learned Latin in school and also some history of Roman Empire,but this is also found in various sources over the internet.
    Now,as for the possibility of Latins carrying R1b-U152 why Catania has so few R1b-U152?
    Another thing,from where P312 is Celtic?
    If P312 is Celtic,than Celts should have conquered South Scandinavia,sometimes,since there is plenty of R1b-P312 there.
    Also,we have P312 in Romania.

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    A large chunk (probably at least half) of that "Celtic P312" should be DF27. DF27 is definitely more common in Italy than the current Eupedia map suggests (less than 1%), which would make sense considering that DF27 and U152 are more closely related than the other P312 subclades (both being descended from ZZ11).

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Maciamo,no offense,but:
    People ruling Roman Empire were called Latins,if we want to be precise,not "Italic".
    Indeed they were belonging to the larger group of Italic people,as Sardinians,Siclians and others are.
    But their very specific name was Latins.
    They conquered at the start the other Italic tribes.
    Italic were and are Sardinians also.
    Latins were coming from the area called Latium. Now that are is called Lazio.
    I learned Latin in school and also some history of Roman Empire,but this is also found in various sources over the internet.
    Now,as for the possibility of Latins carrying R1b-U152 why Catania has so few R1b-U152?
    Another thing,from where P312 is Celtic?
    If P312 is Celtic,than Celts should have conquered South Scandinavia,sometimes,since there is plenty of R1b-P312 there.
    Also,we have P312 in Romania.

    I try here to answer Maciamo and Mihaitatzeo
    Maciamo: 1
    1- R-L23 or M269 are not "this" or "that", no more are Celtic the R-P310 nor are italic the R-U152: if you have U152 you are sure to have at some degrees P-312, even some L11 or even L51 (no barriers: one come from the other - P312 and U152 in Italy are either Italic or Celtic: no neat exclusion, even if we can suppose inversion of celtic-italic ratios according to regions - that said I accept the idea that if we find a very high density of M269 or L23 somewhere, almost without recent SNPs as P312 or U152, we are in front of a population come from S-E Europe or Anatolia (even if not sure) - but don't be so "precise" in your namings ("greco-etruscan" tand so on)!
    what would be very intesresting would be internal %s of respective R1b-donwstreams: I asked you to do this kind of state, IF POSSIBLE of course, because you have far more data than we can have - based upon my tiny data, I made "maps" of these sorts of "internal" percentages: and it's true, Italy is the place we find the higher internal percentage of U152 oppposed to others R1b, before Switzerland. What doesn' t exclude a Ligurians role here. It 's a pity we have not more data at regional scales for the whole Europe and for every Haplo and its SNPs... keep in mind a big enough population without bottleneck nor rupture present always more than a SNP of the same ligneage: who can say a Y-R1b-P310 is more celtic or more ligurian or more italic, or more basque??? some are, not of them, even in close regions
    Mihaitzateo:
    true Sardinians were not italic at all spite they are now Italians, and Sardinians only for a part. If I say Maciamo it a bit too "precise" when he speaks of Celtic and Italic R1b, how can you be so sure of what is Latine DNA opposed to other Italic DNA? Or I misunderstood the meaning of your post?
    No offense to anybody

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