Breakdown of R1b subclades in Italy (Boattini et al.)

Maybe there's a link between these Eneti from Samsun (high % T) and raetians of the Tyrol/veneto with their G2 and T

where did you get this Samsun is T ?

The present name of the city may come from its former Greek name of Amisos by a shortening of Eis Amisos (meaning to Amisos) + ounta (Greek suffix for place names) to Sampsunda (Σαμψούντα) and then Samsun[1] (pronounced [sɑmsun]).

The early Greek historian Hecataeus wrote that Amisos was formerly called Enete, the place mentioned in Homer's Iliad.
During the Ottoman Empire the present name was written in Ottoman Turkish:
صامسون

.....................................
Eneti or Heneti or Enete is the name of an ancient region close to Paphlagonia mentioned by Strabo whose original inhabitants had disappeared by his time.[1]
[h=2]References[/h]
  • ^ Strab. 12.3 Tieium is a town that has nothing worthy of mention except that Philetaerus, the founder of the family of Attalic Kings, was from there. Then comes the Parthenius River, which flows through flowery districts and on this account came by its name;10 it has its sources in Paphlagonia itself. And then comes Paphlagonia and the Eneti. Writers question whom the poet means by "the Eneti," when he says,“And the rugged heart of Pylaemenes led the Paphlagonians, from the land of the Eneti, whence the breed of wild mules; ”11for at the present time, they say, there are no Eneti to be seen in Paphlagonia, though some say that there is a village12 on the Aegialus13 ten schoeni14 distant from Amastris. But Zenodotus writes "from Enete,"15 and says that Homer clearly indicates the Amisus of today. And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea.16 But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country,17 as it is now called. According to some writers, Antenor and his children took part in this expedition and settled at the recess of the Adriatic, as mentioned by me in my account of Italy.18 It is therefore reasonable to suppose that it was on this account that the Eneti disappeared and are not to be seen in Paphlagonia. [9]


.................................................................................

Samsun was called Amisos and before that was called Enete

the locals where cimmerains, mixed with thracian and pontic Greeks, they where mingled later with kaskians and cappodacians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaskians
 
Boattini et al 2013 - Figure S7. (comparison with other countries)

DAPC analysis pf STRs variation for the most frequent Y-chromosome haplogroups;

1) North-Western Italy (from now on NWI), 2) South-Eastern Italy (from now on SEI), and 3) Sardinia (from now on SAR).
IBE: Iberian Peninsula - BAL: Balkan Peninsula - GER: Central-Europe (Germany) - CAU: Caucasus - WAN: Western Anatolia;


R-U152 R1b1b2a1b4 and its sub-clade R-L2 R1b1b2a1b4c
clusters2.png


G-P15
clusters3.png


G2a - within Italy -
fetchObject.action


Cluster 2, 4, 5 are almost exclusive S Italian
Cluster 3 is the all Italian
Cluster 1 is dominant N Italian


And what is your conclusion
 
where did you get this Samsun is T ?

The present name of the city may come from its former Greek name of Amisos by a shortening of Eis Amisos (meaning to Amisos) + ounta (Greek suffix for place names) to Sampsunda (Σαμψούντα) and then Samsun[1] (pronounced [sɑmsun]).

The early Greek historian Hecataeus wrote that Amisos was formerly called Enete, the place mentioned in Homer's Iliad.
During the Ottoman Empire the present name was written in Ottoman Turkish:
صامسون

.....................................
Eneti or Heneti or Enete is the name of an ancient region close to Paphlagonia mentioned by Strabo whose original inhabitants had disappeared by his time.[1]
References


  • ^ Strab. 12.3 Tieium is a town that has nothing worthy of mention except that Philetaerus, the founder of the family of Attalic Kings, was from there. Then comes the Parthenius River, which flows through flowery districts and on this account came by its name;10 it has its sources in Paphlagonia itself. And then comes Paphlagonia and the Eneti. Writers question whom the poet means by "the Eneti," when he says,“And the rugged heart of Pylaemenes led the Paphlagonians, from the land of the Eneti, whence the breed of wild mules; ”11for at the present time, they say, there are no Eneti to be seen in Paphlagonia, though some say that there is a village12 on the Aegialus13 ten schoeni14 distant from Amastris. But Zenodotus writes "from Enete,"15 and says that Homer clearly indicates the Amisus of today. And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea.16 But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country,17 as it is now called. According to some writers, Antenor and his children took part in this expedition and settled at the recess of the Adriatic, as mentioned by me in my account of Italy.18 It is therefore reasonable to suppose that it was on this account that the Eneti disappeared and are not to be seen in Paphlagonia. [9]


.................................................................................

Samsun was called Amisos and before that was called Enete

the locals where cimmerains, mixed with thracian and pontic Greeks, they where mingled later with kaskians and cappodacians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaskians


Kaskians also disappeared at the time of the trojan wars 1187BC
 
Well Samsun, this ancient Eneti you speak of has 20% haplogroup T in that Turkish town.
 
And in Tyrol regions of southern Bavaria/Austria hg T can reach 25% frequencies in certain isolated zones. Also, G2 peaks in those regions and veneto as well , all in link with Raetia zone.
 
And what is your conclusion

Since these are DAPC analysis of STRs variation for the most frequent Y-chromosome haplogroups; i conclude that its very precise and accurate, and informative;

But my conclusions are limited to my observations;
Concerning R1b-U152 R1b1b2a1b4 and its sub-clade L-2 R1b1b2a1b4c
I observe a more or less even distribution amongst the clustering groups;

U152:
cluster 4 seems the all European cluster
cluster 2 seems the all Italian and most dominant Iberian cluster
cluster 1 and 3 being the dominant N Italian and most dominant German clusters;

Manifesting my assumption of a common archaic Indo-European stock that branched out within Europe;
One branch being the Indo-Europen Italics
[Po Valley / Tuscany -dominant and S Italy -significant]
The other branch being a significant part of the Indo-European Kelts [Gauls]
[Switzerland / Upper Rhine / Alsace-Lorraine -dominant and other
regions of West Europe and Britain -significant]

Myres et al 2011
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3039512/

Specifically, S116*(xU152, M529) occurrence is maximal in Iberia (Figure 1j), whereas the U152 branch is most frequent (20–44%) in Switzerland, Italy, France and Western Poland, with additional instances exceeding 15% in some regions of England and Germany (Figure 1l).


such a common root is also attested by Linguistics; - post#4 and Archaeology [Swiss lake dwellings / Urnfield c. complex]

something also cluster 4 of R-L2 R1b1b2a1b4c indicates, being almost exclusively N Italian and German;
I would imagine? the German samples of U-152 and L2 being largely from the Upper Rhine area;

Niederstätter et al 2012 - has 12.5% R1b-U152 in East Tyrol [270 samples]
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0041885#pone.0041885.s013

---

concerning G2a-P15; also just the obvious observations;
In Europe cluster 6 seems to be the Dominant cluster of N Italy and Germany, where as cluster 5 being the dominant cluster for S Italy and Iberia, with cluster 3 linking S Italy with the Balkans and the Caucasus;

within Italy [G2a] there are clusters that are dominant (almost exclusive) in South one cluster dominant in all Italy and one cluster dominant in N Italy;
 
I would like to Highlight Lombardy out of Area I; concerning R1b-U106

Lombardy = 80 samples [Brescia 39 / Como 41]

U-106 = 6.2% in Lombardy
Area I (in total) = 3.1% - due to Savona, Genoa and Cuneo all 0%;

U-106 in Area I is exclusively in Lombardy - Indicating the Germanic Langobarden lineage;
Which is also manifested by Archaeology - Langobarden sites are absent in Liguria and Cuneo province
- but plenty in Lombardy;
langobarden1.png



U-152
on the other hand is equally strong:
Lombardy = 36.2% [80 samples Brescai/Como]
Liguria + Piedmont = 28.3% [81 samples Savona/Genoa/Cuneo]

Indicating the common Bronze age lineage [Umbrian/Ligurian]


Boattini et al 2013
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0065441
 
U152 is not equally strong as u106 in Lombardy, there's some 6 times more u152 than u106.
 
I would like to Highlight Lombardy out of Area I; concerning R1b-U106

Lombardy = 80 samples [Brescia 39 / Como 41]

U-106 = 6.2% in Lombardy
Area I (in total) = 3.1% - due to Savona, Genoa and Cuneo all 0%;

U-106 in Area I is exclusively in Lombardy - Indicating the Germanic Langobarden lineage;
Which is also manifested by Archaeology - Langobarden sites are absent in Liguria and Cuneo province
- but plenty in Lombardy;
langobarden1.png



U-152
on the other hand is equally strong:
Lombardy = 36.2% [80 samples Brescai/Como]
Liguria + Piedmont = 28.3% [81 samples Savona/Genoa/Cuneo]

Indicating the common Bronze age lineage [Umbrian/Ligurian]


Boattini et al 2013
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0065441

these are the numbers for austrian tyrol area in regards to U106

  • Tyrolean Alps Y-chromosome Variability, sample evaluation, collection of 3.800 blood samples begins in Jan. 2007, project description, German Project Site: historisch-genetischer Hintergrund Tirol
  • Frequency Y-chromosome Tyrolean district of Reutte, Erhart, Berger, Niederstätter et al. 2012 (261 samples, 17 Y-STRs, 19 Y-SNPs)
    R1b-U106/S21 20,9%, R1b-M269* 13,6%, R1b-U152/S28 12,4%, I1-M253 10,5%, G2a-P15 8,5%, E1b-M78 8,1%, J-M304 8,1%, R1a-M17 7,8%, I2-M223 2,7%, I2-P37.2 2,7%, K-M9* (LT, NO) 0,8%, P-M45* (Q) 0,8%, G-M201* 0,4%, I-M170* 0,4%, R1-M173*
  • East Tyrolean Dissection of Y Chromosome Variation, Niederstätter, Rampl, Erhart, Pitterl, Oberacher et al. 2012 (270 samples, 17 Y-STRs, 27 Y-SNPs)
    R1b-U106/S21 18,9%, I1-M253 15,9%, R1a-M17 14,1%, R1b-U152/S28 12,6%, J-M304 8,9%, G2a-P15 7,4%, R1b-M412/S167* 4,8%, E1b-M78 4,4%, R1b-S116* 3,0%, I2-M223 2,6 %, R1b-L23/S141* 1,9%
  • Tyrol Y-SNPs Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b, Niederstätter et al. 2008 (135 individuals)
    R1b-U106/S21 60%, R1b-U152/S28 21%, R1b-U198 2%, R1b* 19%

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187517680800187X
 
these are the numbers for austrian tyrol area in regards to U106

  • Frequency Y-chromosome Tyrolean district of Reutte, Erhart, Berger, Niederstätter et al. 2012 (261 samples, 17 Y-STRs, 19 Y-SNPs)
    R1b-U106/S21 20,9%, R1b-M269* 13,6%, R1b-U152/S28 12,4%, I1-M253 10,5%, G2a-P15 8,5%, E1b-M78 8,1%, J-M304 8,1%, R1a-M17 7,8%, I2-M223 2,7%, I2-P37.2 2,7%, K-M9* (LT, NO) 0,8%, P-M45* (Q) 0,8%, G-M201* 0,4%, I-M170* 0,4%, R1-M173*
  • East Tyrolean Dissection of Y Chromosome Variation, Niederstätter, Rampl, Erhart, Pitterl, Oberacher et al. 2012 (270 samples, 17 Y-STRs, 27 Y-SNPs)
    R1b-U106/S21 18,9%, I1-M253 15,9%, R1a-M17 14,1%, R1b-U152/S28 12,6%, J-M304 8,9%, G2a-P15 7,4%, R1b-M412/S167* 4,8%, E1b-M78 4,4%, R1b-S116* 3,0%, I2-M223 2,6 %, R1b-L23/S141* 1,9%

Reutte
[North Tyrol] 261 samples: R1bU-106 = 20.9% / I1-M253 = 10.5% - Erhart 2012
East Tyrol 270 samples: R1bU-106 = 18.9% / I1-M253 = 15.9% - Niederstätter 2012

This clearly underlines the dominant Germanic lineage amongst Tyroleans;
Interesting about Tyrolean is that they are split between Bajuwarisch and Alemannisch (mundart);
Rhaeto-Romanic only exists in South Tyrol;

But its equally interesting to note the Neolithic and Bronze age [Urnfield] lineages;

Reutte [North Tyrol] 261 samples: G2a = 8.5% / R1bU-152 = 12.4% - Erhart 2012
East Tyrol 270 samples: G2a = 7.4% / R1bU-152 = 12.6% - Niederstätter 2012
 
[/LIST]

Reutte
[North Tyrol] 261 samples: R1bU-106 = 20.9% / I1-M253 = 10.5% - Erhart 2012
East Tyrol 270 samples: R1bU-106 = 18.9% / I1-M253 = 15.9% - Niederstätter 2012

This clearly underlines the dominant Germanic lineage amongst Tyroleans;
Interesting about Tyrolean is that they are split between Bajuwarisch and Alemannisch (mundart);
Rhaeto-Romanic only exists in South Tyrol;

But its equally interesting to note the Neolithic and Bronze age [Urnfield] lineages;

Reutte [North Tyrol] 261 samples: G2a = 8.5% / R1bU-152 = 12.4% - Erhart 2012
East Tyrol 270 samples: G2a = 7.4% / R1bU-152 = 12.6% - Niederstätter 2012

you notice in link below the tyrolese closest admixture relative are Romanians , followed by North-Italians and Greeks are the furthest away...........clearly they did not come from the Med.

http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Datei:Dodecad_Oracle_Clos_Calc_TiGenID006.png

romanians.......er..ancient Thracians ( be them Dacians, Getae or ??? )
 
you notice in link below the tyrolese closest admixture relative are Romanians , followed by North-Italians and Greeks are the furthest away...........clearly they did not come from the Med.

http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Datei:Dodecad_Oracle_Clos_Calc_TiGenID006.png

romanians.......er..ancient Thracians ( be them Dacians, Getae or ??? )

and if this would be from a proper scientific source i would take it seriously,
since its from Dodecad (the anonymous internet blogger) hardly a scientific ref.
 
L21 is a sub branch of P312, as u152 also is , L21 is found at high frequencies in Ireland, lower frequencies in western England and 5-10% across Brittany province of France. It's really the "Irish" Celtic R1b Clade.

It may be found at high levels in Ireland but highest variance is seen in L21 samples from the continent particulary from France. The figures for North-West France in that study put L21+ at 40% this would specifically include Brittany. Of course one thing that Ireland and Brittany have in common is that both of them were majority "Insular Celtic" speaking regions 250 years ago. The figures I've seen for the 1760's put Irish language usage at between 66% and 75% of the population. With English usage only exceeding 50% around the time of the Act of Union in 1801.

Busby paper on M269 in Europe gives the following for France (I've exclude samples with less then 45 men in them)
North West France (n=115)

  • L21+ = 40% (n=46)

South East France (n=45)

  • L21+ = 11.11% (n=5)

North France (n=68)

  • L21+ = 10.29% (n=7)

North Central France (n=91)
  • L21+ = 9.89% (n=9)

Vaucluse (Upstream Rhone) (n=61)
  • L21+ = 8.2% (n=5)

South West France (n=83)
  • L21+ = 7.23% (n=6)

Bouches Du Rhone (At Mouth) (n=207)
  • L21+ = 6.28% (n=13)

East France (n=80)
  • L21+ = 5% (n=4)

South Central France (n=89)

  • L21+ = 4.49% (n=4)

Var (Coastal, E Of Rhone) (n=68)

  • L21+ = 2.94% (n=2)

The lowest level found in England was in the "East England" sample which came in at 12.8% about half the U106 level. However there is an obvious East->West Cline with levels hitting 40.4% in NW England and 37.5% in Southwest England.

In same study in Spain we see figures such as:
East Spain C (Catalonia?) (n=177)

  • L21+ = 8.47% (n=15)

East Spain V (Valencia?) (n=168)

  • L21+ = 7.14% (n=12)

Cantabria, Santander (n=131)

  • L21+ = 5.34% (n=7)

One of reason why Spain is interesting in this regard is that one of the major subclades of L21 was found in samples of Iberian origin in the america's (South American and Mexican American). This snp been Z253 (L21+ -> DF13+ -> Z253+), this of course is the parent SNP for L226 (that defines "Irish Type III" cluster).

R1b-L21_Descendency_Tree.jpg


-Paul
(DF41+)
 
In same study in Spain we see figures such as:
East Spain C (Catalonia?) (n=177)

  • L21+ = 8.47% (n=15)

East Spain V (Valencia?) (n=168)

  • L21+ = 7.14% (n=12)

Cantabria, Santander (n=131)

  • L21+ = 5.34% (n=7)

One of reason why Spain is interesting in this regard is that one of the major subclades of L21 was found in samples of Iberian origin in the america's (South American and Mexican American). This snp been Z253 (L21+ -> DF13+ -> Z253+), this of course is the parent SNP for L226 (that defines "Irish Type III" cluster).

R1b-L21_Descendency_Tree.jpg


-Paul
(DF41+)

I posted it before, and i will post it again;
Míl Espáine - a folklore that is much revealing;
also in connection with Q-Celtic being only Gaelic and Celt-Iberians;
Seems like Genetics is now rounding it of;

Yes, the only place in England with low levels of L21 is the SE Coast; recorded by Julius Caesar to be inhabitant by the Gallic Belgae -
also the area with the highest R1b-U152 in all Britain;
 
I posted it before, and i will post it again;
Míl Espáine - a folklore that is much revealing;
also in connection with Q-Celtic being only Gaelic and Celt-Iberians;
Seems like Genetics is now rounding it of;

Yes, the only place in England with low levels of L21 is the SE Coast; recorded by Julius Caesar to be inhabitant by the Gallic Belgae -
also the area with the highest R1b-U152 in all Britain;

Míl Espáine is "pseudo-history" created by the synthetic historians in the 8th century. There is no mention of him before then and his name is a calque from latin (literally meaning "Spanish soldier") -- in other words it's all just a pile of rubbish connocted for political reasons to reflect the status-quo politically in Ireland at the time.

-Paul
(DF41+)
 
Míl Espáine is "pseudo-history" created by the synthetic historians in the 8th century. There is no mention of him before then and his name is a calque from latin (literally meaning "Spanish soldier") -- in other words it's all just a pile of rubbish connocted for political reasons to reflect the status-quo politically in Ireland at the time.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Its not History at all, its just Folklore;

But there is always a structure of truth and reason behind every Folklore stories;

The Evidence that Q-Celtic (exclusive Gaelic - C. Iberian) strengthens its even more;

And now Genetics, as you demonstrated;


PS: Which Busby study are you referring to concerning France?
 
I see a problem with the map of R1b on this site in what concerns central Italy. There's a 40-50% coat of R1b extending into central Italy, not 25% in the Umbria/Marche region, its more like 40-45% in those regions.
 
On the italian peninsula, R1b frequencies peak in the north, in Lombardia, the Germanic Trentino-Alto Adige region, parts of Emilia-Romagna,Liguria and a very small fraction of Toscana. About 50-80% of all the males from these regions are paternally R1b. This territory is similar genetically to Celtic countries such as England,Ireland,France or Germany. Most if that R1b is of the U152 subclade though so northern Italy is like a magnified Switzerland,France or Belgium to be more precise, as these are the regions were R1b u152 is most frequent. Then 36-50% of the males from Piemonte, Valle D'Aosta, Veneto on the other side, Tuscan, Umbrian, Abruzzo, Marche, Lazio; all these regions some in the north, extending well into central Italy have 35-50% R1b. In Genoa (Liguria) for example, 48% of males are R1b. The frequencies are similar 45-50% for Veneto. There are regions if central Italy such as Pescara and Avezzano were 40-45% of men are R1b, the highest frequencies in the extreme are in Altamura were 40% of men are R1b. Everything (including) under Campania and Molise has 25-30% R1b only including Sicily. In the north, Piemonte has 53% R1b, Liguria has 52%. At Lago Como in north-west Lombardy, 54% of men are R1b. At Brescia I north-eastern Lombardy, 65% of men are R1b. In Emilia-Romagna frequencies are at 60% on average. The west-central region of Veneto is surprising though, as the city of Vicenza has only 30% R1b. But Treviso in the east has 54% R1b. The "La Spezia-Massa" region of northwest Tuscany has an italian high with 71% R1b. Pistoia has 61% R1b and the Grosseto-Siena region has 50%. In Foligno, Umbria 38-40% of men are R1b. In Macerata, Marche 38-40% of men are R1b as well. Approaching the south, this is were frequencies begin to fall off dramatically. L'Aquila has 35% r1b, Campobasso has only 25%, Benevento has 34%, Mater has only 8%, Lecce has 26%, Cosenza has 30%, in southwest Sicily 20% of men are R1b in the east 33% are.
 
Italy's R1a frequencies are virtually absent. A high of about 10% is experienced in the Veneto region nearest to Slovenia. Another 10% high is found on the southernmost tip of Apulia. Haplogroup I peaks in the Foggia region at just under 20%. The next highs are 13% in central Apulia and south-central Basilicata. There are frequencies of 9% in central campania and in the L'Aquila region of central Italy. E3b peaks in the Altamura region at 36%. Frequencies across Basilicata and Apulia are of 20-25%. Tip of Calabria has 27%. Campobasso and Genoa (Liguria) regions have 25% E3b. G2 peaks at 15-20% in southern Campania (Salerno) and in the Foggia region. 10% also found in central campania, tip of Apulia and the Liguria region. J peaks in the Foggia region of northern Apulia and in Paola central Calabria (45%). The next highest frequencies are near Molise 38%, and in the tip of Calabria (36%). The L'Aquila/Pescara region of central Italy has 30-35% hg J. southern Apulia has 25% J, the north has the countries and europe's highest J frequencies (40-45%). Lazio has about 20% J and the Veneto region about 25%.
 
On average, R1b frequencies are about 40-50% in the north, and 20-30% in the south but can range from over 70% in the north to about 20% or slightly more in the south. Overall, Neolithic lineages (J,E3b,G excluding T) cover almost half of italian men (47%). As for the three Mediterranean islands Sardinia Corsica and Sicily, Sicily has the highest Neolithic influence (at least 37% of males) as compared to Corsica an Sardinia (15-17%) Corsica has the most E3b (almost all it's Neolithic component) and Sardinia as well than Sicily, but Sicily was found to be a treasure trove of J. Sicily even has 12% F* lineages (compared to Sardinia/Corsica's less than 3-5%) , definitely indicative of ancient arrival of middle easterners,such as Phoenicians, probably by sea. As for the island of Sardinia, it differs of course, in it's extremely high frequencies of a sub-group of Balkanic I1b1-P37. This indicates an early contact between Sardinia in particular and blood from the Balkans. Corsicans differ in that 50% of them are R1b (MUCH u152 here) and only 25% of SARDINIANS/Sicilians have R1b.
 

This thread has been viewed 81047 times.

Back
Top