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Thread: Distribution of E1b1b subclades in Italy (Boattini et al.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here is the data from previous studies (subclades not tested).

    From Capelli et al. (2007)

    North Italy

    In Val Badia, Alto Adige, 2 out of 34 samples were E1b1b (6%).

    Central Italy

    In Elba Island, north-west Tuscany, 7 out of 95 samples were E1b1b (7%).

    In Central Tuscany, 4 out of 41 samples were E1b1b (10%).

    At the Tuscany-Latium border, 9 out of 79 samples were E1b1b (11.5%).

    In the North-East Latium, 14 out of 55 samples were E1b1b (25.5%).

    In the South Latium, 3 out of 51 samples were E1b1b (6%).

    In Central Marche, 3 out of 59 samples were E1b1b (5%).

    In Apennine Marche, 4 out of 27 samples were E1b1b (15%).

    South Italy

    In West Campania, 15 out of 84 samples were E1b1b (18%).

    In North-West Apulia, 2 out of 46 samples were E1b1b (4.5%).

    In South Apulia, 16 out of 71 samples were E1b1b (22.5%).

    In West Calabria, 9 out of 57 samples were E1b1b (16%).



    From Ferri et al. (2007)

    Central Italy

    In Rimini, eastern Romagna, 15.5% of E1b1b was found out of 98 samples.

    In Valmarecchia, eastern Romagna, 20% of E1b1b was found out of 65 samples.



    From Di Giacomo et al. (2002)

    North Italy

    In Val di Non, Trentino-Alto Adige, no E1b1b was found (0%) out of 30 samples.

    In Verona, west Veneto, 9% of E1b1b was found out of 22 samples.

    In Genoa, central Liguria, 24% of E1b1b was found out of 29 samples.

    Central Italy

    In Garfagnana, north-west Tuscany, 2.5% of E1b1b was found out of 42 samples.

    South Italy

    In L'Aquila, west Abruzzo, 11.5% of E1b1b was found out of 35 samples.

    In Pescara, east Abruzzo, 15% of E1b1b was found out of 20 samples.

    In Avezzano, south-west Abruzzo, 7% of E1b1b was found out of 29 samples.

    In the North Gargano peninsula, northern Apulia, 24% of E1b1b was found out of 29 samples.

    In Foggia, northern Apulia, 11% of E1b1b was found out of 27 samples.

    In Benevento, central-east Campania, 17.5% of E1b1b was found out of 46 samples.

    In the Cilento peninsula, southern Campania, 12.5% of E1b1b was found out of 48 samples.

    In Casarano, southern Apulia, 20% of E1b1b was found out of 20 samples.

    In Brindisi, central-east Apulia, 26.5% of E1b1b was found out of 38 samples.

    In Altamura, central-west Apulia, 36% of E1b1b was found out of 25 samples.

    In Matera, central-east Basilicata, 25% of E1b1b was found out of 24 samples.

    In Paola, north-west Calabria, 11% of E1b1b was found out of 27 samples.

    In Reggio Calabriab, southern Calabria, 27.5% of E1b1b was found out of 33 samples.


    From Onofri et al. (2007)

    Central Italy

    In Urbino, northern Marche, 19% of E1b1b was found out of 37 samples.

    In Fabriano, central-west Marche, 23% of E1b1b was found out of 44 samples.


    From Brisighelli et al. (2012)

    North Italy

    In Udine, central-east Friuli-Venezia Giulia, 6.5% of E1b1b was found out of 47 samples.

    In eastern Liguria, 15% of E1b1b was found out of 46 samples.

    Central Italy

    In north-west Marche (Piceni), 8.5% of E1b1b was found out of 38 samples.

    In South Latium (Latini), 8.5% of E1b1b was found out of 44 samples.

    South Italy

    In Lucera, nortern Apulia, 21.5% of E1b1b was found out of 60 samples.

    In central Basilicata (Saniti), 6.5% of E1b1b was found out of 30 samples.

    In central Apulia (Salentine Greek), 19% of E1b1b was found out of 47 samples.

    In southern Apulia, 24% of E1b1b was found out of 49 samples.

    In north-west Calabria (Belvedere), 6.5% of E1b1b was found out of 27 samples.

    In Sicily (Catania + Trapani), 15.5% of E1b1b was found out of 57 samples.


    From Di Gaetano et al. (2009) (subclades available)

    Sicily

    In Trapani, north-west Sicily, 12% of E1b1b was found out of 33 samples.

    In Mazara del Valo, south-west Sicily, 22% of E1b1b was found out off 18 samples.

    In Santa Ninfa, western Sicily, 19.5% of E1b1b was found out of 31 samples.

    In Alcamo, north-west Sicily, 0% of E1b1b was found out of 24 samples.

    In Caccamo, north-west Sicily, 12.5% of E1b1b was found out of 16 samples.

    In Sciacca, south-west Sicily, 14% of E1b1b was found out of 28 samples.

    In Troina, north-east Sicily, 26.5% of E1b1b was found out of 28 samples.

    In Piazza Armerina, central-east Sicily, 43% (!) of E1b1b was found out of 30 samples.

    In Ragusa, south-east Sicily, 10.5% of E1b1b was found out of 28 samples.


    From Contu et al. (2008)

    Sardinia

    In Tempio, northern Sardinia, 11 out of 86 samples were E1b1b (13%).

    In Sorgono, central Sardinia, 8 out of 103 samples were E1b1b (8%).

    In Cagliari, southern Sardinia, 20 out of 187 samples were E1b1b (10.5%).
    Thanks Maciamo: I like when I can speak about precise facts and here you put the samples sizes, what is magic for me!

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    E3b seems to be found in its highest frequencies in Genoa (24%) most of this of probable Greek colonial origin. Also found in 27% in Reggio Calabria, 20% in Casarano (Apulia) , 26% in Brindisi (Apulia). 25% in Matera (Basilicata) where J frequencies are low, but only R1b and e3b are higher. Also found in 25% of men on the Molise/Apulia border and a high of 36% of males from Altamura have E3b.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    How can Genova be highest when you list areas where it is higher? :) And Genova was not a Greek colony on the scale of Massalia. All that is known to us is that there was a Greek trading center there, although the Etruscans were probably there first. We also know that the Cardial Neolithic was strong in Liguria, and E-V13 adna has been found in an ancient Cardial Neolithic site along the northern Mediterranean coast. Genova is sampled for obvious reasons, as it is the largest city and capital of Liguria, but a well done sampling to track ancient movements would not take samples from this kind of city in my opinion. (over a million inhabitants). The People of the British Isles study, for example, strictly took samples from rural areas. In the particular case of Genova, it was also sacked and burned to the ground numerous times, and a majority of it's people died during the Black Plague, so I don't think it's a particularly good sample site.

    The highest level in Italy, looking at all the studies, is Piazza Armerina, in central East Sicily, where it is found in 43% of the males according to one study. Unfortunately, there is no breakdown by subclade.

    I think it's very problematic trying to assign ydna to ancient tribes mentioned in mythology or very early histories by looking at modern distributions of ydna. There's been some changes since then. Also, even the Boattini study didn't drill down by sub-clade far enough. There were most probably multiple waves of E1b1b into Italy, and each would have come not only at a different time, but probably from different areas. The only possible way to figure it out, absent a lot of adna, would be to have really precise and dated subclades.

    Just generally, I think that the vast majority of E1b1b in Italy is due to the Neolithic, Greek colonization where it occurred, perhaps the Phoenicians, and yes, movements in later history from the non-Greek areas of the Balkans. Even in the Neolithic, there is strong evidence that the Neolithic came to Apulia from the Balkans, for example. The Neolithic of north east Italy is also tied to the Balkans. That movement continued. In fact, the only even partly significant gene flow from the outside into Italy since about 500 B.C., is, according to Ralph and Coop, from the Balkans.

    I do think there is something to be said about separating out E-V13 from the other subclades. I say this because it seems to me from looking at all the data that there is much more diversity in terms of E1b1b in the center (starting in southern Tuscany) and south of Italy than in the north, where it is almost all E-V13. And I don't think we can attribute it all to the Greeks; E-V13 is present in the shadow of the Alps in respectable quantities. (9.5% in Como, and 6.5% in Treviso, with even Vicenza getting 12.5%) Most of it, I think, is Neolithic, or was swept in by Indo-European movement, part of which probably also came via the Balkans. Just as an aside, it's interesting that total E-M78 +M123 is higher in N.E. Italy than in North West Italy and Central Italy, and just slightly lower than in southern Italy.

    The other thing that I think might be important is to check the varieties of E1b1b in the Balkans. I'm not as familiar with those figures. I wonder what non-E-V13 clades show up there? That might help in figuring out when and from where some, at least, of these other clades originated. Was it a slightly different stream of the Neolithic? Was it indeed the Phoenicians, although I've always considered them to be minor players, since all they really did was set up trading centers.

    I would be tempted to see these other clades as relics of North African movement into southern Italy (raids went all the way up to Rome) by the Moors, were it not for the extremely low levels of E-M81, *the* Berber clade, which ranges in Sicily from a low of .7% in Cruciani, to a high of 5.5% in Semino. The settlement of Sicily was overwhelmingly by Berbers, not Arabians or Levantines. Either Sicily was so densely populated that their numbers were not enough to make much of an impact, or they were indeed mostly killed and expelled as the histories say, or the proportions of ydna E in North Africa were very different in 800 A.D. than they are now.

    The other thing that strikes me about Sicily, and the south, is that E-V13, *the* Greek clade, is not more dominant, which actually makes sense if you think about the fact that the Greek colonies were sporadically situated along the coasts. I think there were Neolithic varieties other than E-V13 already there in Sicily when the Greeks came, and probably some E-V13 as well. I doubt it will actually ever be unraveled.

    There's also support for the fact that a lot of this is Neolithic, I think, in that there are a lot of these minor subclades in very interior, mountainous places like Matera. It has the feel of people being pushed into less attractive lands by succeeding migrations. I'm not sure whether Piazza Armerina in Sicily is a good example of that. The area was settled in the Neolithic, but the town itself was only founded by the "Lombards" (i.e. northern Italians of various varieties) during the Norman era...and yet, as I said, it's E1b1b reaches 43%. Perhaps some of it was from Moors who fled to the interior, as the Lombard towns were located in areas that needed to be "pacified". It's impossible to tell how much is attributable to that versus the Neolithic without a very detailed break down of the E1b1b in the area and comparison to other parts of the Mediterranean. A lot of adna would be nice too.

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    Sicily also has berberid E-M81 that crossed directly from western north-Africa, whereas the vast majority of E3b in Italy and the Balkans has the E-V13 signature. It's on the Iberian peninsula where E-M81 is define toy the more dominant variety.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Sicily also has berberid E-M81 that crossed directly from western north-Africa, whereas the vast majority of E3b in Italy and the Balkans has the E-V13 signature. It's on the Iberian peninsula where E-M81 is define toy the more dominant variety.
    I agree. What's surprising is how little of that Berberid E-M81 Sicily actually has...a rough average of all the studies is about 2% isn't it? Even if some of the other clades of E-M78 could be connected directly to North Africa instead of both the North African and Sicilian clades stemming from the same Levantine Neolithic, the numbers are still lower than I expected.

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    Most E3b in south-central/eastern Europe is E-V13. The Iberian peninsula has much more E-M81.

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    Yes, the capital, but cities are funny. In other parts of Bulgaria E-V13 is 30%+.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I broke down a lot of these numbers but the auto-save betrayed me & I don't feel like doing it again. So I'll give you the highlights:


    E-V13 actually increases in Italy from south to north. Yeah, you read that correctly. It constitutes 9% of all haplotypes in the north & only 7% in the south (according to this limited data). It increases both relative to E1b1b as a whole & in absolute numbers. It is also heavily concentrated in the east.

    *It is worth noting that it appears to drop slightly in central Italy & its distribution is on the whole relatively uniform. However, virtually all of the data from central Italy in this set is from west-central or inland. In the east-central Italy, there are much higher E1b1b numbers, & I suspect nearly all of it is E-V13.


    This pattern does not hold for E-M123, which increases as you head south. It is 1.5% in the north & doubles to nearly 3% in the south.



    So-called non-Euro & non-Phoenician haplos (E-M81, E-V12, E-V22, E-V65) go from 1.5% in the north to 3% in central, to 3.5-4% in the south. Again, they don't track E-V13. Perusing the data casually, they also don't appear to track E-V13 from east to west. Observe Apulia for example. As E-V13 goes up, these other haplos actually appear to decrease both north to south & east to west. So, preliminarily speaking, there may be some relationship between E-M123 & *some* of these other E haplos. Indeed, they may be Phoenician or from the Levant.



    I'm not sure this is what you'd expect to see if they all arrived together in Italy. I think you'd expect them to be correlated with one another. I haven't analyzed them carefully but as stated, a crude analysis tells me the other haplos correlate somewhat with one another (E-M81 probably incidentally because I think it's recent (Moorish invasion)).
    What I'd really like to see is data on the frequency of these haplos in Greek dominated regions & the Balkans. The Greeks supposedly settled much of Sicily & yet there is very little E-V13 there. That is just weird. Molise, Abruzzo, Apulia that's where the E-V13 is, namely in the East. Indeed, E-V13 seems to be inversely correlated with Greek settlement. There is very little of it in the West (even in the South, in Sicily, etc!!!). That is very unexpected. This could be because gradual migration from Illyria/Balkans or some mesolithic/early neolithic settlement connection (same founding population) made a greater contribution to the modern regional gene-pool in Italy than more recent, minor Greek contribution in the west of the Italian peninsula. So, at least from what I'm seeing, I don't think there's any settlement relationship or correlation or any other type of link at all between E-V13 & the other E's in Italy. That is pretty surprising I'd say.
    Last edited by ESpraguer; 05-11-16 at 07:09.

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    Correct. Except Northern & Eastern Bulgaria are over 20% & some regions of Bulgaria are 30+%.

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    For E-V22 there is this survey: http://e-v22.net/origin/
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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    I'm not sure this is what you'd expect to see if they all arrived together in Italy.
    Of course they did not arrive together. Some of the mentioned E clades separated from the other 25000 years ago.
    E-123 is the only clade for which it makes sense it came from Asia Minor. Contrary to that there are arguments which support European origin of E-V13.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    @ESpraguer,

    It's unclear to me if you have seen and taken into account the subsequent paper by this group, Sarno et al.

    This is a link to the paper. Scroll to the end to get to Supplementary Information and click on table 2 among others. They break out not only the E-V13 but the other subclades of E1b1b. Yes, there's more E-V13 in Calabria and Apulia etc., than there is in Sicily, but it's a difference of about 2-3%, which is easily explained by the fact that Sicily experienced a large migration from northern Italy during the Middle Ages, which would have cut into the older y dna distribution signature. Even so, there's still quite a bit in Sicily, and western Sicily more than eastern Sicily, at least according to this study.
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...one.0096074#s5

    Also, I don't know if you're aware that the TMRCA of the E-V13 in Italy is around 2300 years, which is coincidentally at the height of the Greek influence in Italy.
    Last edited by Angela; 05-11-16 at 23:14.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    I'm not sure this is what you'd expect to see if they all arrived together in Italy. I think you'd expect them to be correlated with one another. I haven't analyzed them carefully but as stated, a crude analysis tells me the other haplos correlate somewhat with one another (E-M81 probably incidentally because I think it's recent (Moorish invasion)).
    Of course they didn't all arrived together in Italy, and they aren't correlated with one another. Why are you focusing only about Italy? Those E1b1b are spread also in other Central and Southern European countries. And of course not the all the E-M81 are due to Moorish invasion, E-M81 has been found also in France.
    In Europe, E-M81 is widespread but rare, in the Iberian Peninsula Spain shows an average frequency of 4.3% (49/1140) in the Iberian Peninsula with frequencies reaching 9% in Galicia, 10% in Western Andalusia and Northwest Castile. However this study includes 153 individuals from Majorca, Minorca and Ibiza islands as well as 24 individuals from Gascony which are not in the Iberian Peninsula. Without these 177 individuals, average for Iberian Peninsula is 4.9% (47/963),[35] it is found at comparable levels to E-M78, with an average frequency of around 5%, and in some regions it is more common. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura and southern Portugal, 4% to 9% in Galicia, 14% in western Andalusia and 10% in northwest Castile and 9% to 17% in Cantabria.[22][36][37][38][39] The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Valles Pasiegos from Cantabria, ranging from 18% (8/45)[39] to 41% (23/56).[2] An average frequency of 8.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands with frequencies over 10% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (10.68%), Gran Canaria (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (13.33%).[40] E-M81 is also found in France,[2] 2.70% (15/555) overall with frequencies surpassing 5% in Auvergne (5/89) and Île-de-France (5/91),[41][42] in Sicily (approximately 2% overall, but up to 5% in Piazza Armerina),[43] and in very much lower frequency near Lucera (1.7%), in continental Italy,[38] possibly due to ancient migrations during the Islamic, Roman, and Carthaginian empires. In a 2014 study by Stefania Sarno et al. with 326 samples from Cosenza, Matera, Lecce and 5 Siclian provinces, E-M81 shows an average frequency of 1.5%, but the typical Maghrebin core haplotype 13-14-30-24-9-11-13 has been found in only two out of the five E-M81 individuals. These results, along with the negligible contribution from North-African populations revealed by the admixture-like plot analysis, suggest only a marginal impact of trans-Mediterranean gene flows on the current SSI genetic pool

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    For E-V22 there is this survey: http://e-v22.net/origin/ and http://e-v22.net/descendants/ Please feel free to comment!
    How much is accurate?

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    The data is largely consistent with my points. Although it's very, very limited & doesn't have a lot of eastern data, Lecce V-13 is almost double that of Sicily in the west (15% in Lecce). The average E-V13 in Sicily is roughly 8%, which was sort of my point (& interestingly, lower than what you find in the north of Italy. So if you're arguing the north of Italy reduced the percentage of E-V13, that doesn't really add up.). E on the whole does not go up from west to east, but E-V13 does. Same is true south to north. Western Italy is marked by a significantly larger proportion of other E types (probably indicating movement of peoples from North Africa & the Levant), a signature which is smaller in the east & the north.


    Plus or minus 800 years. LOL. Also, I really don't buy it. If E-V13 has been in southern Europe 7-8000 years (It has. Spanish cave.), my guess is that it has been in Italy (particularly eastern Italy adjacent to Balkans) roughly the same amount of time. The TMRCA estimates are notoriously inaccurate. However, it is possible that the E-V13 in this study (from Sicily) is somewhat younger than that found in the east of Italy & is connected to Greek colonization in antiquity. But anyone who thinks all that V-13 in the east of Italy is from 2000 yrs ago or so, rather than from Cardium Pottery & other pre-historic migrations, I think is arguing from a pretty tenuous position. I think that is extremely unlikely. But as stated, some of the V13 settlement in the west of Italy could be more recent. However, I suspect much of the E-V13 in the east of Italy goes back 5000 yrs or more.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    The data is largely consistent with my points. Although it's very, very limited & doesn't have a lot of eastern data, Lecce V-13 is almost double that of Sicily in the west (15% in Lecce). The average E-V13 in Sicily is roughly 8%, which was sort of my point (& interestingly, lower than what you find in the north of Italy. So if you're arguing the north of Italy reduced the percentage of E-V13, that doesn't really add up.). E on the whole does not go up from west to east, but E-V13 does. Same is true south to north. Western Italy is marked by a significantly larger proportion of other E types (probably indicating movement of peoples from North Africa & the Levant), a signature which is smaller in the east & the north.


    Plus or minus 800 years. LOL. Also, I really don't buy it. If E-V13 has been in southern Europe 7-8000 years (It has. Spanish cave.), my guess is that it has been in Italy (particularly eastern Italy adjacent to Balkans) roughly the same amount of time. The TMRCA estimates are notoriously inaccurate. However, it is possible that the E-V13 in this study (from Sicily) is somewhat younger than that found in the east of Italy & is connected to Greek colonization in antiquity. But anyone who thinks all that V-13 in the east of Italy is from 2000 yrs ago or so, rather than from Cardium Pottery & other pre-historic migrations, I think is arguing from a pretty tenuous position. I think that is extremely unlikely. But as stated, some of the V13 settlement in the west of Italy could be more recent. However, I suspect much of the E-V13 in the east of Italy goes back 5000 yrs or more.
    Did you even look at the Sarno et al tables? They're not at all consistent with your points. To save your argument you're now comparing one town in Puglia to all of western Sicily. That's not at all a fair comparison. If you actually look at the table, Lecce, one town in Puglia in mainland Italy, has 15% E-V13, but Trapani, one town in far northwest Sicily has 14.71% or approximately 15%.

    Plus, as I said, we're talking about an average of 11% versus an average of 14%. I don't see the big deal here. Plus, as I said, that difference is easily explained by later demographic movements into both Sicily and southern Italy. I don't at all understand your statement that northern Italian migration into Sicily could not have diluted E-V13. First of all, you are not defining Northern Italy correctly. Second of all, the northern Italian migration into Sicily was primarily from Lombardia, hence why it's called the Lombard migration, and the dialects some of the towns founded by them still speak are called the Lombard Sicilian dialects. Where do you find more E-V13 in Lombardia or the Veneto than in southern Italy? I suggest you take a look at Table S2 in Boattini et al, and compute how much E-V13 they show in Lombardia.
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...ne.0065441/#s6

    Also, I don't know if you're aware of it, but there are documented movements of Greek speakers into southern Puglia in the Middle Ages. That's one of the reasons it's still the largest Griko speaking area in Italy. We're talking about further waves into that area, but it doesn't negate that there were first millennium BC movements into all of Magna Graecia. I also don't know where you find all these large percentages of "other" "E" in western Italy. Again, please check the data tables. The data doesn't show that at all.
    Attachment 8180

    Sarno at all concentrating on southern Italy and Sicily:
    Attachment 8181

    Not that the late first millennium BC movement of Greek speakers into Italy is the only such movement. I think we'll find that not only trade but people flowed into Italy, along the Adriatic coast, in particular, during the Mycenaean era.

    Actually, I don't understand what larger point you're trying to make here. If it's about E-V13 in general, then there are other countries with much more of it that have to be understood. If it's about the issue of Greek migration into Italy, E-V13 is not the only lineage that has to be considered.

    As for dating the E-V13 migrations to Europe, it's true that we've found the precursors in Neolithic samples. We also know, however, that the expansion is dated to the Bronze Age. I think a strong argument could be made that most E-V13 is going to descend from that period of expansion. The expansion is also centered in the Balkans, so any E-V13 in Italy is likely to have an ultimate Balkan origin. I'd also point out that +or- 800 years from 300 BC is not going to take you back to the Neolithic. However, until E-V13 gets the same kind of attention that some R1b clades received, a lot of this is just speculation.

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    1) The Sarno tables only have limited data from the east. Virtually all of the data analyzed in the study is from Sicily. That's part of what makes the study so suspect (especially given what you're trying to claim). E-V13 settlement in Sicily may have been from Greek era (I've already conceded this), although I certainly wouldn't conclude this based upon 1 study & 1 TMRCA estimate, given how notoriously unreliable they are. I also wouldn't take this limited data to be representative of all of Italy or all E-V13 on the peninsula. Settlement after all may have begun long before this in the east or in the north. Moreover, despite the limited data from Sarno regarding eastern Italy, we have other data from other studies regarding the east of Italy. 25% in Venice. 20% in Rimini, etc. Not only that, but the data we have from the east & from the north suggests E there is dominated by E-V13 in ways that the central-west & southwest are not. This is actually intuitive given the predominance of E-V13 in the Balkans & Greece. Breaking down the data from Boattini et al, 2013, you'll see my claims vindicated. I'm going beyond what Maciamo provided now:
    E-V13 is 9-12% of all haplos in north. It is only 7% in Sicily. That is averaging the data, not just cherry picking particular cities (which I didn't do in the first place). It's true that I chose Lecce to make my point, but I could have chosen just about any eastern city. You couldn't have chosen any Sicilian city. Only a few areas of Sicily possess E-V13 at that level.
    From the Boattini study I'll also go along the east of the peninsula, & just average a few of the cities for you. I'm going to be lazy & just pick randomly from the east & tally up the numbers.
    Treviso: 10% E-V13, 2.5% E non-E-V13
    Campobasso (somewhat inland) - 10%, 3.33% E non-E-V13
    Vicenze- 14% E-V13 5.5% E non-E-V13
    L'aquila (inland, but eastish) - 10%, all E-V13
    Now Lecce: 15% E-V13, 2.5% E, non E-V13
    Compare this to say Benevento where there is even more e1b1b (16-17%), but 60% of it is non-E-V13.
    You'll notice that along the east E-V13 is basically 10% at minimum. Moreover, only Lecce is really on the coast. Vicenze is only close to the coast. Other studies have found e1b1b at 20% in Rimini (probably nearly all V13) & up to 25% in Venice (again presumably nearly all E-V13, since in the east & north almost all e1b1b is E-V13, which was to be demonstrated). These are actual coastal cities, like Lecce. As you head inland, E drops slightly & continues to drop as you head west.
    *Also, you'll see the patterns I mentioned in the Boattini data. Sardinia, Sicily, Catanzaro all 50%+ non E-V13. In the North & East, e1b1b is heavily V13, indeed 75% plus, whereas in the southwest & west e1b1b becomes less & less dominated by V13 (50% and under).
    2) Again, I'm going to reiterate that I don't believe for 1 second that E-V13 arrived in Italy roughly 2000 years ago. I believe E-V13 has been in Italy much, much longer than that. A few Sicilian samples are not going to change my mind on that. There is a good chance that some of the samples from Sicily are from the Greek era, skewing or worse, poisoning the estimate, but even if it's fairly accurate, I do not think the Sicilian data exhausts E-V13 or its settlement in the Italian peninsula. I suspect Cardium Pottery brought significant quantities of E-V13 to Italy 7000 yrs ago or prior. If one was really interested in dating E-V13 in Italy one would head to the east & the north, where the E-V13 is & where Greek settlements were more scarce. We have 7000 yr old E-V13 in southern Spain & 7000 yr old E-V13 from Hungary. E-V13 has lingered in southern & central Europe & along the coast of the Mediterranean for a long, long time. The notion that it is 10,000 yrs old or so in Greece, the Balkans & Bulgaria but only arrived in eastern Italy 2000 yrs ago I find to be a bit fantastical.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I'm not trying to claim anything. I don't care when E-V13 came to Italy. You're the one who for some unknown reason is rather heatedly insisting that most of it must have come other than with known settlement from Greek city states at approximately the TMRCA date for the various E-V13 clades in Italy.

    What I'm doing is pointing out what I consider to be some logical fallacies in your argument, the lack of data to support key parts of your argument, and the mis-statements of fact about Italian history. What I realize but you apparently do not is that we're no longer in 2008. We've learned since then that modern distributions of yDna clades can be very misleading. We've also learned that you have to drill down further and further into subclades because they can be separated by a thousand years and very different migrations.

    In terms of ancient dna we have a possible E-V13 in the epi-Cardial, and E-M78 in mid-to-late Sopot and Lengyel cultures. That's it. From that you choose to believe, apparently, that most of the actual, modern E-V13 in Italy must have come from the early Neolithic. In my opinion, that's an unwarranted conclusion.
    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/eur...ithicdna.shtml

    Furthermore, whether you wish to believe it or not, one of the things we can indeed learn from modern yDna is when a certain lineage experienced its expansion. In the case of E-V13 that was the Bronze Age. I think that's a pretty good indication that whenever and with whomever E-V13 arrived in Italy, a good chunk of it, perhaps the majority, arrived during or after the Bronze Age.

    Bicicleur thinks that E-V13 may have been picked up by the Indo-Europeans somewhere in central-eastern Europe, in which case it's conceivable some of it entered Italy from the north, over the Alps, or through the corridor in the east through which the Lombards later arrived. I think it's more likely, given the epicenter of E-V13 in the Balkans, that the flow was mainly from there. Only time will tell.

    At any rate, given the known Greek settlements all over southern Italy but also in other areas of Italy and nearby in Provence during the first millennium BC, to take the position that this is somehow a minor to insignificant source of E-V13 in Italy is not only counter-intuitive but rather contrary to logic.

    In the following map the smaller Adriatic trading centers are not shown, or the small settlement at Genova, but still you get an idea of how much settlement actually took place.



    This is another good graphic:


    Even the grape varieties show the same thing:


    Autosomal analysis is also pretty informative. I'm still impressed by how much Cavalli-Sforza got right. This is PC4 of his autosomal map of Europe.


    I think the distribution in Italy might also owe something to the colonization program of the Romans. Neapolis was a large Greek area, and incorporated by Rome relatively early, so its men went into the legions. As time passed, Rome settled veterans all over Italy, scrambling the yDna distribution to some extent, although not, in my opinion, enough to very much affect the very old substructure. The separation of southern Italy from central, and even more from northern Italy took place after the Roman era.



    As to the jumble of statistics in your post, I'm sorry, but I don't pay attention to stats that don't contain a link to the appropriate paper. Without that information, which would tell me if its actually E-V13, the number of samples, the methodology etc. I can't evaluate the data. One of the reasons why I do pay attention to the Boattini and Sarno papers, for example, is that they are a random sample drawn only from known regional surnames. In a country like Italy where there has been a very large migration from south to north starting really at the end of the 19th century, four grandparents born in the area is not enough to guarantee these are really "native" samples.

    I think it is pretty clear that some, perhaps a large chunk of the E-V13 in Italy is indeed part of the Greek expansion of the first millennium BC, but I think it was supplemented in the southeastern portions of the mainland and perhaps in central Italy during the Middle Ages given known migrations, and a portion may stretch back to the Mycenaean Era given known trade and cultural exchange patterns. Some of it may indeed even go back to the Neolithic, but given the expansion dates I don't think that's the case for most of it.

    At any rate, I'm not at all married to these speculations. It's just what it looks like to me now given what I know of the sub-clade and the history. When we have more ancient dna and more subclade resolution this may all change. I have no stake in any one outcome so whatever the data shows, it shows. What I'm not interested in is unfounded speculation, bereft of data, because of what is increasingly looking like some sort of agenda.
    Last edited by Angela; 06-11-16 at 17:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    1) The Sarno tables only have limited data from the east. Virtually all of the data analyzed in the study is from Sicily. That's part of what makes the study so suspect (especially given what you're trying to claim). E-V13 settlement in Sicily may have been from Greek era (I've already conceded this), although I certainly wouldn't conclude this based upon 1 study & 1 TMRCA estimate, given how notoriously unreliable they are. I also wouldn't take this limited data to be representative of all of Italy or all E-V13 on the peninsula. Settlement after all may have begun long before this in the east or in the north. Moreover, despite the limited data from Sarno regarding eastern Italy, we have other data from other studies regarding the east of Italy. 25% in Venice. 20% in Rimini, etc. Not only that, but the data we have from the east & from the north suggests E there is dominated by E-V13 in ways that the central-west & southwest are not. This is actually intuitive given the predominance of E-V13 in the Balkans & Greece. Breaking down the data from Boattini et al, 2013, you'll see my claims vindicated. I'm going beyond what Maciamo provided now:
    E-V13 is 9-12% of all haplos in north. It is only 7% in Sicily. That is averaging the data, not just cherry picking particular cities (which I didn't do in the first place). It's true that I chose Lecce to make my point, but I could have chosen just about any eastern city. You couldn't have chosen any Sicilian city. Only a few areas of Sicily possess E-V13 at that level.
    From the Boattini study I'll also go along the east of the peninsula, & just average a few of the cities for you. I'm going to be lazy & just pick randomly from the east & tally up the numbers.
    Treviso: 10% E-V13, 2.5% E non-E-V13
    Campobasso (somewhat inland) - 10%, 3.33% E non-E-V13
    Vicenze- 14% E-V13 5.5% E non-E-V13
    L'aquila (inland, but eastish) - 10%, all E-V13
    Now Lecce: 15% E-V13, 2.5% E, non E-V13
    Compare this to say Benevento where there is even more e1b1b (16-17%), but 60% of it is non-E-V13.
    You'll notice that along the east E-V13 is basically 10% at minimum. Moreover, only Lecce is really on the coast. Vicenze is only close to the coast. Other studies have found e1b1b at 20% in Rimini (probably nearly all V13) & up to 25% in Venice (again presumably nearly all E-V13, since in the east & north almost all e1b1b is E-V13, which was to be demonstrated). These are actual coastal cities, like Lecce. As you head inland, E drops slightly & continues to drop as you head west.
    *Also, you'll see the patterns I mentioned in the Boattini data. Sardinia, Sicily, Catanzaro all 50%+ non E-V13. In the North & East, e1b1b is heavily V13, indeed 75% plus, whereas in the southwest & west e1b1b becomes less & less dominated by V13 (50% and under).
    2) Again, I'm going to reiterate that I don't believe for 1 second that E-V13 arrived in Italy roughly 2000 years ago. I believe E-V13 has been in Italy much, much longer than that. A few Sicilian samples are not going to change my mind on that. There is a good chance that some of the samples from Sicily are from the Greek era, skewing or worse, poisoning the estimate, but even if it's fairly accurate, I do not think the Sicilian data exhausts E-V13 or its settlement in the Italian peninsula. I suspect Cardium Pottery brought significant quantities of E-V13 to Italy 7000 yrs ago or prior. If one was really interested in dating E-V13 in Italy one would head to the east & the north, where the E-V13 is & where Greek settlements were more scarce. We have 7000 yr old E-V13 in southern Spain & 7000 yr old E-V13 from Hungary. E-V13 has lingered in southern & central Europe & along the coast of the Mediterranean for a long, long time. The notion that it is 10,000 yrs old or so in Greece, the Balkans & Bulgaria but only arrived in eastern Italy 2000 yrs ago I find to be a bit fantastical.
    In Ftdna North-Italy project , 18 of 23 E people are ....E-M35/L117

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

    Other papers have roughly the same percentage for north-italy
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Yeah, exactly. That L117 is all V-13. Those numbers comport perfectly with the other data. 75%+ of N Italian E is E-V13.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    1) Don't be an unethical debater. There's no "jumble of statistics" anywhere. The statistics I've provided are very clear. I've also broken them down so they're easy to grasp. They're also right there in the Boattini study, which is publicly available. So they're very easy to find & analyze if you're at all interested in the truth. Because I'm a newb to Eupedia, it won't let me post links, but if you simply google "Boattini et al in Italy" the very first result will take you there.
    2) Greek settlements do not track V13 in Italy. At all. Where Greek settlements were, V13 numbers are substantially lower. There are few Greek settlements in the east & the north, according to your own map, but E-V13 is higher there than in the south & southwest.
    3) I did not say Greek genetic contributions to Italy were small. What I said was that it was almost certainly smaller than other V13 contributions from other migrations, which likely predate Greek settlement (perhaps Illyrian, an Alpine entry or Cardium Pottery era). I also said that analyzing Sicilian V-13 might not be the best way to get a grip on V13 in Italy, its origin & the timeframe of that origin. It is 1 region, & it is not where E-V13 reaches its height. If anything, all that Greek settlement makes the Sicilian data all the more unrepresentative of V13 in Italy. V13 may very well have arrived in the west of the peninsula in large numbers substantially later than it arrived elsewhere. This is especially true for an extreme western island like Sicily. Notice how insubstantial V13 is in Sardinia.
    4) Yes, that's what those estimates indicate, that E-V13 arrived in the late, late Bronze Age or after the Bronze Age. I've already stated that I don't believe that. I suspect E-V13 arrived in Italy (North & East especially) in the early Bronze Age or prior. A Greek origin for E-V13 in Italy generally is simply not at all supported by the evidence.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    1) Don't be an unethical debater. There's no "jumble of statistics" anywhere. The statistics I've provided are very clear. I've also broken them down so they're easy to grasp. They're also right there in the Boattini study, which is publicly available. So they're very easy to find & analyze if you're at all interested in the truth. Because I'm a newb to Eupedia, it won't let me post links, but if you simply google "Boattini et al in Italy" the very first result will take you there.
    2) Greek settlements do not track V13 in Italy. At all. Where Greek settlements were, V13 numbers are substantially lower. There are few Greek settlements in the east & the north, according to your own map, but E-V13 is higher there than in the south & southwest.
    3) I did not say Greek genetic contributions to Italy were small. What I said was that it was almost certainly smaller than other V13 contributions from other migrations, which likely predate Greek settlement (perhaps Illyrian, an Alpine entry or Cardium Pottery era). I also said that analyzing Sicilian V-13 might not be the best way to get a grip on V13 in Italy, its origin & the timeframe of that origin. It is 1 region, & it is not where E-V13 reaches its height. If anything, all that Greek settlement makes the Sicilian data all the more unrepresentative of V13 in Italy. V13 may very well have arrived in the west of the peninsula in large numbers substantially later than it arrived elsewhere. This is especially true for an extreme western island like Sicily. Notice how insubstantial V13 is in Sardinia.
    4) Yes, that's what those estimates indicate, that E-V13 arrived in the late, late Bronze Age or after the Bronze Age. I've already stated that I don't believe that. I suspect E-V13 arrived in Italy (North & East especially) in the early Bronze Age or prior. A Greek origin for E-V13 in Italy generally is simply not at all supported by the evidence.

    Greek DNA contribution to Italian gene pool is significant in Rome. Romans imported all Greek craftsman and settled them in Italy to build Rome. They also imported all they could find, craftsman from Levant and Egypt. The imports were the gifted individuals and all their immediate families. The names of famous architects who build some Roman marvels were either Greeks or Middle eastern people. Also artists of all kinds were imported, shipbuilders etc.. Over so many years their numbers have swelled to significant numbers

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Greek DNA contribution to Italian gene pool is significant in Rome. Romans imported all Greek craftsman and settled them in Italy to build Rome. They also imported all they could find, craftsman from Levant and Egypt. The imports were the gifted individuals and all their immediate families. The names of famous architects who build some Roman marvels were either Greeks or Middle eastern people. Also artists of all kinds were imported, shipbuilders etc.. Over so many years their numbers have swelled to significant numbers
    Please provide the studies which prove that all the craftsmen and architects who built Rome were "native" Greeks, and furthermore, the analysts who have computed the numbers of their descendants.

    I'm not disputing, by the way, that the Romans greatly valued educated Greek slaves. However, on this site we don't post statements without providing proof for them.

    @ESprague,
    You insult moderators here and there are consequences. I guess you didn't know that.

    It is highly improbable, and something I haven't seen proposed by any serious analyst that Magna Graecia, the site of so much Greek settlement in the first millennium BC, and part of a genetic cluster with Greece recognized as long ago as in Cavalli-Sforza's seminal work but also by some modern genetic testing companies would have no or minimal E-V13 from those migrations. The only data you present for your proposition is sentence after sentence of stats for E-V13 in the rest of Italy, especially central Italy. Who has denied that there is E-V13 in other parts of Italy? Also, I already posted the actual data tables, so it was totally unnecessary.

    The point is that Boattini et al found five separate clusters of E-V13 in Italy. Before we can come to any hard and fast conclusions about the source and timing of E-V13 in Italy, those clusters have to be further studied and snp tests provided for them. Then the samples that are banked have to be re-tested for those subclades and the precise TMRCA for each cluster has to be computed as closely as possible. Comparisons could then be made with samples from Greece, Albania, etc., but even then great care would have to be exercised. Any attempt to come to some scientific conclusions would, in my opinion, also have to include ancient dna. That would help with dating and give us the precise subclades involved with each migration.

    Absent this kind of rigorous data collection and analysis it's impossible to safely draw the kinds of conclusions you are drawing as to the precise timing and direction of all the E-V13 in Italy.

    You're free to believe whatever you wish, of course, but you have presented no evidence, in my opinion, to support your speculation that virtually all the E-V13 in southern Italy/Sicily, and the rest of Italy for that matter has been there since the Neolithic. The very fact that there are five clusters, not one, is against that proposition.

    So, unless you have something new to add to the discussion, I don't see much point in continuing.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    1) Again, you're failing to do even the most rudimentary analysis of the stats. E-V13 does not appear to be correlated at all with Greek settlement. E-V13 is lower in Sicily than it is in the east & north of Italy. That you deny this is just bizarre. The stats are right there for you to see. They're crystal clear.
    2) Again, you keep repeating arguments I'm not making. I've stated like 6 times that much of the E-V13 in Sicily may be from the Greek period. I doubt that all of it is but much of it may be. This doesn't mean that the E-V13 elsewhere in Italy is from this period. It is after all quite strange that E-V13 is at its highest in Italian regions where Greek settlements were few or non-existent. I'd say that suggests pretty strongly much of E-V13 on the peninsula is not from the Greek period.
    3) There has already been pretty rigorous data collection. I'm just breaking the data down in a very straight-forward way. You just don't like what the data says, because it contradicts your feelings & preconceived notions.
    4) I did not insult you. All I did was urge you not to debate unethically. Your claim that what I wrote constituted a "jumble of statistics" is not a good faith argument. It is a condescending, intellectually lazy, pejorative argument directed at my collection of data & arguably at me & my intellect as well. Calling a short mathematical analysis a "jumble of statistics" is hardly arguing in good faith. All I did was urge you against unethical debate, & I believe the "jumble of statistics" argument was precisely that. That is not an insult, unless you think there was something in my exhortation. So you decided to penalize me as a bully would, because you like to throw your weight around by talking down to people when you're losing a debate, & when someone calls you out on it & stands up to you, instead of owning up, you throw your weight around further by slapping them with an infraction. You'd make a good tyrant.
    5) I have provided strong evidence of my claims. You just don't like the claims, because the data conflicts with what you want to believe.
    6) No, you should retire, you're losing. Cheers.

  25. #50
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    You're now up to 8 infraction points. Cheers.

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