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Thread: Distribution of E1b1b subclades in Italy (Boattini et al.)

  1. #51
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Now, if anyone would like to discuss the issue in a sane and rational and objective manner I'd be happy to do so.

    Absent ancient ydna from the areas in Italy under discussion for the Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Age, and from Greece and the Balkans for the same periods, and also absent much information about the five clusters of E-V13 in Italy, I have no idea what percentage of E-V13 is attributable to the Neolithic versus the Bronze and Iron Ages in different areas in Italy, although as I said I find it improbable, given that the expansion of E-V13 was in the Bronze Age and that Boattini et al give the main E-V13 cluster in SEI a very young TMRCA, and that we have well known migrations from Greece to Italy in the first millennium that most of it is Neolithic in origin. Anything is possible, of course, as ancient dna has a history of surprising.

    This is the graphic of the clusters of E-V13 in Italy. Anyone have any insights? Oh, it's important to note that in the Boattini analysis, SEI for y DNA stands for southern and eastern Italy, and goes all the way up to the northeast.

    Boattini et al E-V13 Italy.PNG

    It's Cluster 3 of E-V13, the vast majority of which is located in SEI, which is dated to about 400 BC. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any dating for the other clusters.
    http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/je...2fb44.jpg.html

    Oh, as to the deluge of percentages about E-V13 in different areas in Italy, this is the table from Boattini et al, which I already posted. The big furor was because area II, north east Italy, comes in at 11%. Southern Italy, including Campania, Puglia, Calabria etc. comes in at 10.6, obviously a huge difference, and Sicily, area 7 at 7.1, although there are hotspots as in Trapani which are close to 15%. That should make things a little clearer.
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MWmAskEgse...oups_italy.png

    This is the table from Sarno et al (same group). The percentages are a little higher. You can see the wild swings in percentages.
    https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bYlCUJZuW...no2014tab1.JPG


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    Quote Originally Posted by ESpraguer View Post
    Yeah, exactly. That L117 is all V-13. Those numbers comport perfectly with the other data. 75%+ of N Italian E is E-V13.
    L117 = M35 is a main branch and V13 is a subbranch way way down the tree.
    L117 equivalent to M35, at the level just above M78, so V32 is downstream of L117.
    Last edited by Sile; 07-11-16 at 07:32.
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    By the way, if anyone has a clue as to why the possibility that a lot of E-V13 came to southern Italy with the Greeks was such an emotional topic, so vehemently to be denied, and even more bizarrely why I would have been presumed to care one way or the other, could you enlighten me either here or by PM? Thanks.

    I'm used to some strange events, but I found this really incomprehensible.

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    I wasn't ever emotional. You were emotional. Did I sanction you? Did I banish you from the site for 2 weeks? Who was emotional? LOL. I never even said much of the E-V13 in Sicily wasn't Greek. I simply said I doubted the data & estimates almost strictly limited to Sicily were generalizable or relevant to the E-V13 elsewhere in Italy. Until analyses are done on these other clusters & on E-V13 from elsewhere in Italy, it will be essentially speculative. However, given that we have what is likely E-V13 (E-M78) in Sopot & Lengyel & E-V13 in Spain from 7000 years ago, it just seems unlikely that Italy (a location between these two locations) didn't have significant quantities of E-V13 as well in the neolithic, given that Cardium Pottery Culture itself included much of Italy, especially eastern Italy, Liguria, etc. I simply meant to convey a deep skepticism that E-V13 in Italy has its origins in the middle or late Bronze Age. I think this extremely unlikely. But I have no doubt whatsoever that some of it arrived with Greek settlement. I know I can be aggressive, but I never meant to be rude.

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    here is the graph did a quick bit of distribution of E-V13 in Italy.
    Makes it a little justice in regions with a strong colonization greca.Prima Sicily, then Lazio, Campania, Puglia etc ... Lombardy has recently suffered a strong migration from southern Italy and therefore has a given falsato.Bisogna add it to sud-Italia.Se consider themselves Italians in the world (Argentina, Brazil, etc.) this data would be more 'raddoppiati.L'Italia represents the nation with more' E-V13 mondo.Bisogna to better study all its subaplogruppi for understand the history and the immigration places.



    italia v13.jpg


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    Quote Originally Posted by ELIOV13 View Post
    here is the graph did a quick bit of distribution of E-V13 in Italy.
    Makes it a little justice in regions with a strong colonization greca.Prima Sicily, then Lazio, Campania, Puglia etc ... Lombardy has recently suffered a strong migration from southern Italy and therefore has a given falsato.Bisogna add it to sud-Italia.Se consider themselves Italians in the world (Argentina, Brazil, etc.) this data would be more 'raddoppiati.L'Italia represents the nation with more' E-V13 mondo.Bisogna to better study all its subaplogruppi for understand the history and the immigration places.






    italia v13.jpg

    No idea where this data is from. Sicily does not have a high % of E-V13. It has a high percentage of E1b1b, but only about 30-40% of it is E-V13. Thus the rub with your argument. This is a thread about the Boattini data. The graphs you've given are not based upon that data or they're the result of a total misunderstanding regarding it. This study has just under 150 samples in Sicily, all from different parts of the island. 10 of those 150 samples are E-V13. 10. That means a mere 6.7% of Sicilians are E-V13. That's about as low as any part of Italy. There is twice as much E-V13 as that in Venice & Liguria, close to 3x as much in Apulia. Campania? 8.5% E-V13. You're conflating E1b1b with E-V13. In the west of Italy a lot of the E1b1b is non-E-V13. Thus the confusion. Again, there is more E-V13 in the east & the north of the Italian peninsula. E1b1b in the aggregate is not equivalent to nor even correlated with E-V13, a particular subclade of E1b1b. And again, there is essentially no apparent correlation between Greek settlement and the concentration of E-V13 in Italy. There does appear to have been significant gene flow from the Balkans & Greece to eastern Italy, but I'm not at all convinced this is largely the result of any particular historic migrations. Moreover, Greek colonization or gradual Balkan/Greek migration to the east of the peninsula does not explain very well the hotspot in Liguria. This may be a vestige of the Cardium Pottery era.

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