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Thread: Distribution of E1b1b subclades in Italy (Boattini et al.)

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Post Distribution of E1b1b subclades in Italy (Boattini et al.)

    Here is the breakdown of E1b1b subclades by province based on the recent study by Boattini et al..

    North Italy

    In Cuneo, south-west Piedmont, 2 out of 30 samples are E1b1b (6.5%), among which one E-V13 (3.5%) and one E-V65 (3.5%).

    In Savona/Genova, central Liguria, 8 out of 50 samples are E1b1b (16%), among which seven E-V13 (14%) and one E-V22 (2%).

    In Como, north-west Lombardy, 5 out of 41 samples are E1b1b (12%), among which four E-V13 (9.5%) and one E-M78 (2.5%).

    In Brescia, north-east Lombardy, 3 out of 39 samples are E1b1b (7.5%), among which two E-V13 (5%) and one E-M123 (2.5%).

    In Vicenza, central-west Veneto, 7 out of 40 samples are E1b1b (17.5%), among which five E-V13 (12.5%), one E-M123 (2.5%) and one E-V22 (2.5%).

    In Treviso, central-east Veneto, 3 out of 30 samples are E1b1b (10%), among which two E-V13 (6.5%) and one E-M123 (3.5%).

    In Bologna, central Emilia-Romagna, 3 out of 29 samples E1b1b (10.5%), among which two E-V13 (7%) and one E-M81 (3.5%).


    Central Italy

    In La Spezia-Massa, north-west Tuscany, no E1b1b (0%) was found out of 24 samples.

    In Pistoia, central-north Tuscany, only one E-V13 (7.5%) sample was found out of 13 samples.

    In Grosetto-Siena, southern Tuscany, only 13 out of 86 samples are E1b1b (15%), among which five E-V13 (6%), three E-V12 (3.5%), three E-M123 (3.5%), one E-M81 (1%) and one E-V22 (1%).

    In Foligno, central-east Umbria, 3 out of 37 samples are E1b1b (8%), among which two E-V13 (5.5%), and one E-V65 (2.5%).

    In Macerata, central-east Marche, 5 out of 40 samples are E1b1b (12.5%), among which three E-V13 (7.5%), and two E-M123 (5%).


    South Italy

    In L'Aquila, Abruzzo, 3 out of 23 samples are E1b1b (13%), all of which were E-V13 (13%).

    In Campobasso, Molise, 4 out of 29 samples are E1b1b (14%), among which two E-V13 (7%), one E-M123 (3.5%), and one E-M35 (3.5%).

    In Benevento, Campania, 7 out of 36 samples are E1b1b (19.5%), among which three E-V13 (8.5%), three E-M123 (8.5%), and one E-V22 (2.5%).

    In Matera, Basilicata, 6 samples out of 25 are E1b1b (24%), among which two E-V13 (8%), two E-V22 (8%), one E-V12 (4%) and one E-M123 (4%).

    In Lecce, Apulia, 6 out of 39 samples are E1b1b (15.5%), all of which were E-V13 (15.5%).

    In Cosenza/Catanzaro/Crotone, Calabria, 7 out of 38 samples were E1b1b (18.5%), among which four E-V13 (10.5%), one E-M81 (2.5%), one E-V12 (2.5%) and one E-M123 (2.5%).

    In Catania, eastern Sicily, 22 out of 62 samples are E1b1b (13%), among which three E-V13 (5%), one E-M35 (1.5%), one E-M123 (1.5%), one E-M81 (1.5%), one E-V12 (1.5%), and one E-V22 (1.5%).

    In Ragusa, southeast Sicily, 6 out of 44 samples are E1b1b (13.5%), among which three E-V13 (6%), two E-M81 (4.5%), and one E-V22 (2%).

    In Agrigento, southwest Sicily, 9 out of 42 samples are E1b1b (21.5%), among which four E-V13 (9.5%), two E-M35 (5%), one E-V12 (2.5%), one E-V22 (2.5%) and one E-M123 (2.5%). There were also one E1b1a (M2) and one E1a (M33), bringing the total for haplogroup E to 26%.

    In Olbia/Tempio/Nuoro, north-east Sardinia, only one E-V13 (2.5%) sample was found out of 40 samples.

    In Oristano, central-west Sardinia, 5 out of 42 samples are E1b1b (12%), among which four E-M123 (9.5%) and one E-M81 (2.5%). There were also one E1a (M33), bringing the total for haplogroup E to 14.5%.


    E-V13 is clearly the dominant subclade all over Italy, except in Sardinia where it is only found in the north-east, where the Corsican influence is stronger. Sardinians otherwise have more E-M123, the second most common subclade in Italy, and incidentally the one to which belonged Napoleon.

    My feeling is still that Neolithic migrations, then the Phoenician and Greek colonisations brought V13 lineages with a minority of M123, V12, V22 and V65 accompanying them. I think that all these subclades were already mixed before the diffusion of agriculture to Europe. The distribution of all these subclades is therefore random. Local variations would be more the result of chance and sampling bias than a mark of separate ancestry. That is why I am not going to bother creating separate maps for these subclades, as they would cause more confusion than enlightenment.

    The only E1b1b subclade that represents a clearly separate ancestry is M81, the Carthaginian/Moorish/Maghrebian marker. As expected, M81 is found mostly in Sicily, Calabria and Sardinia. The only other samples found were in the Siena and Bologna regions. Sicily and Sardinia both had Phoenician/Carthaginian colonies. In the 5th century, both became part of the Vandal Kingdom based in in North Africa. Sicily later became an Arabic/Moorish emirate from 831 to 1072. Parts of Calabria were also briefly conquered by the Arabs at the time of the Emirate of Sicily.

    M81 is found at low frequencies in the Near East too, so it is probable that the M81 from Tuscany and Emilia are Neolithic origin. I expect that new subclades should soon distinguish Near Eastern M81 from Maghrebian M81.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 07-06-13 at 10:54.
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    Don't you mean La Spezia/Massa, North-WEST Tuscany?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Don't you mean La Spezia/Massa, North-WEST Tuscany?
    Yes, of course.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Here is the data from previous studies (subclades not tested).

    From Capelli et al. (2007)

    North Italy

    In Val Badia, Alto Adige, 2 out of 34 samples were E1b1b (6%).

    Central Italy

    In Elba Island, north-west Tuscany, 7 out of 95 samples were E1b1b (7%).

    In Central Tuscany, 4 out of 41 samples were E1b1b (10%).

    At the Tuscany-Latium border, 9 out of 79 samples were E1b1b (11.5%).

    In the North-East Latium, 14 out of 55 samples were E1b1b (25.5%).

    In the South Latium, 3 out of 51 samples were E1b1b (6%).

    In Central Marche, 3 out of 59 samples were E1b1b (5%).

    In Apennine Marche, 4 out of 27 samples were E1b1b (15%).

    South Italy

    In West Campania, 15 out of 84 samples were E1b1b (18%).

    In North-West Apulia, 2 out of 46 samples were E1b1b (4.5%).

    In South Apulia, 16 out of 71 samples were E1b1b (22.5%).

    In West Calabria, 9 out of 57 samples were E1b1b (16%).



    From Ferri et al. (2007)

    Central Italy

    In Rimini, eastern Romagna, 15.5% of E1b1b was found out of 98 samples.

    In Valmarecchia, eastern Romagna, 20% of E1b1b was found out of 65 samples.



    From Di Giacomo et al. (2002)

    North Italy

    In Val di Non, Trentino-Alto Adige, no E1b1b was found (0%) out of 30 samples.

    In Verona, west Veneto, 9% of E1b1b was found out of 22 samples.

    In Genoa, central Liguria, 24% of E1b1b was found out of 29 samples.

    Central Italy

    In Garfagnana, north-west Tuscany, 2.5% of E1b1b was found out of 42 samples.

    South Italy

    In L'Aquila, west Abruzzo, 11.5% of E1b1b was found out of 35 samples.

    In Pescara, east Abruzzo, 15% of E1b1b was found out of 20 samples.

    In Avezzano, south-west Abruzzo, 7% of E1b1b was found out of 29 samples.

    In the North Gargano peninsula, northern Apulia, 24% of E1b1b was found out of 29 samples.

    In Foggia, northern Apulia, 11% of E1b1b was found out of 27 samples.

    In Benevento, central-east Campania, 17.5% of E1b1b was found out of 46 samples.

    In the Cilento peninsula, southern Campania, 12.5% of E1b1b was found out of 48 samples.

    In Casarano, southern Apulia, 20% of E1b1b was found out of 20 samples.

    In Brindisi, central-east Apulia, 26.5% of E1b1b was found out of 38 samples.

    In Altamura, central-west Apulia, 36% of E1b1b was found out of 25 samples.

    In Matera, central-east Basilicata, 25% of E1b1b was found out of 24 samples.

    In Paola, north-west Calabria, 11% of E1b1b was found out of 27 samples.

    In Reggio Calabriab, southern Calabria, 27.5% of E1b1b was found out of 33 samples.


    Battaglia et al. 2008

    North Italy

    Trento, southern Trentino-Alto-Adige, 3% of E1b1b was found out of 67 samples + 1.5% of E1a.


    From Onofri et al. (2007)

    Central Italy

    In Urbino, northern Marche, 19% of E1b1b was found out of 37 samples.

    In Fabriano, central-west Marche, 23% of E1b1b was found out of 44 samples.


    From Brisighelli et al. (2012)

    North Italy

    In Udine, central-east Friuli-Venezia Giulia, 6.5% of E1b1b was found out of 47 samples.

    In eastern Liguria, 15% of E1b1b was found out of 46 samples.

    Central Italy

    In north-west Marche (Piceni), 8.5% of E1b1b was found out of 38 samples.

    In South Latium (Latini), 8.5% of E1b1b was found out of 44 samples.

    South Italy

    In Lucera, nortern Apulia, 21.5% of E1b1b was found out of 60 samples.

    In central Basilicata (Saniti), 6.5% of E1b1b was found out of 30 samples.

    In central Apulia (Salentine Greek), 19% of E1b1b was found out of 47 samples.

    In southern Apulia, 24% of E1b1b was found out of 49 samples.

    In north-west Calabria (Belvedere), 6.5% of E1b1b was found out of 27 samples.

    In Sicily (Catania + Trapani), 15.5% of E1b1b was found out of 57 samples.


    From Di Gaetano et al. (2009) (subclades available)

    Sicily

    In Trapani, north-west Sicily, 12% of E1b1b was found out of 33 samples.

    In Mazara del Valo, south-west Sicily, 22% of E1b1b was found out off 18 samples.

    In Santa Ninfa, western Sicily, 19.5% of E1b1b was found out of 31 samples.

    In Alcamo, north-west Sicily, 0% of E1b1b was found out of 24 samples.

    In Caccamo, north-west Sicily, 12.5% of E1b1b was found out of 16 samples.

    In Sciacca, south-west Sicily, 14% of E1b1b was found out of 28 samples.

    In Troina, north-east Sicily, 26.5% of E1b1b was found out of 28 samples.

    In Piazza Armerina, central-east Sicily, 43% (!) of E1b1b was found out of 30 samples.

    In Ragusa, south-east Sicily, 10.5% of E1b1b was found out of 28 samples.


    From Contu et al. (2008)

    Sardinia

    In Tempio, northern Sardinia, 11 out of 86 samples were E1b1b (13%).

    In Sorgono, central Sardinia, 8 out of 103 samples were E1b1b (8%).

    In Cagliari, southern Sardinia, 20 out of 187 samples were E1b1b (10.5%).
    Last edited by Maciamo; 11-06-13 at 09:33.

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    Combining all the studies from Boattini et al 2013 and the past; it is very obvious that:


    E-M78 [V-12 / V-13 / V-22 / V-65] and E-M123 [E-M34]
    are (by far) the most dominant E-Hg's all across Italy;
    E-M78 and E-M123 being North African and Levantine;
    M78 + M123 = 11.7% NW Italy / 15.1% NE Italy / 10.4% C Italy / 16.6% S Italy -Boattini 2013
    M78 + M123 = 10.5% N Italy / 11.2% C Italy / 13.8% S Italy -Cruciani 2004
    M78 + M123 (Sicily) = 12.7% -Boattini 2013 / 20.6% -Cruciani 2004 / 16.0% -DiGaetano 2009

    E-M81 ranges from absantee to low frequencies in the North, Central, South and Sardinia but is always present in Sicily;
    E-M81 being Maghrebin (Berber) North African;
    North = 0% Semino 2004 / 0% Boattini 2013 / 1.5% Cruciani 2004
    Central = 0% Semino 2004 / 0% Boattini 2013 / 2.2% Cruciani 2004
    Tuscany = 0.8% Boattini 2013
    South = 1.3% Semino 2004 / 0.5% Boattini 2013 / 0% Cruciani 2004
    Sicily = 5.5% Semino 2004 / 2.8% Boattini 2013 / 0.7% Cruciani 2004 / 2.1% DiGaetano 2009
    Sardinia = 0% Semino 2004 / 1.2% Boattini 2013 / 0.3% Cruciani 2004

    The Exotic E-Hg's [M-33 / M-2 West African and M-35 East African] only appear
    in S Italy, Sicily and Sardinia
    M-33 + M-35 + M-2 = 0.5% in S. Italy / 1.2% in Sardinia / 3.5% in Sicily -Boattini 2013
    (1.6% Sardinia -Cruciani 2004)

    ---

    Cruciani et al 2004 - Global Hg E
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...tool=pmcentrez

    Cruciani et al 2007
    - Global E-M78
    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html
    Last edited by Nobody1; 08-06-13 at 18:14.

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    Not surprisingly the highest E-V13 is in the Apulian city of Lecce.

    Also from DiGiacomo et al. Altamura haves 36% of E1b1b which is not few.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I have updated the E1b1b map (don't forget to refresh your browser as usual).


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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    From this study found 15.8% E3b
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    2 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    My feeling is still that Neolithic migrations, then the Phoenician and Greek colonisations brought V13 lineages with a minority of M123, V12, V22 and V65 accompanying them.
    You exclude Illyrians which they colonizated Italy much as Greeks. Even most of E-V13 found in the territory where Illyrian tribes lived.
    Phoenician has nothing to do E-V13, they rather were J2.



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    Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't Messapians, a supposed Illyrian tribe, to have settled in Apulia?

    That would explain the E-V13 and would clear once for all the I2a1b presence in Balkans since it demonstrates it wasn't imported in Italy at all.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't Messapians, a supposed Illyrian tribe, to have settled in Apulia?
    Yes,

    The Iapyges - [Messapii - Peucetii - Dauni] were Illyrian tribes all located in the South East [Apulia]

    The Illyrian tribes of the Apulia were in constant warfare with Magna Graecia and the Greeks; first the Iapygian King Opis was killed in battle but than the Iapyges had the decisive victory over the Greeks;

    Herodotus -

    Iapygians, and at the same time becoming inhabitants of the mainland instead of islanders. From Hyria they afterwards founded those other towns which the Tarentines at a much later period endeavoured to take, but could not, being defeated signally. Indeed so dreadful a slaughter of Greeks never happened at any other time, so far as my knowledge extends: nor was it only the Tarentines who suffered; but the men of Rhegium too, who had been forced to go to the aid of the Tarentines by Micythus the son of Choerus, lost here three thousand of their citizens; while the number of the Tarentines who fell was beyond all count.

    Carl Huffman
    - Archytas of Tarentum (2005) [Cambridge Uni.]
    Even more important was a defeat suffered by Tarentum and her ally Rhegium at the hands of the Iapygians in 473 (D.S. x1. 52). Herodotus says that this was the greatest slaughter of Greeks of which he knows; 3,000 soldiers from Rhegium alone died, with no number having been put to the Tarentine dead (vn. 170). Aristotle tells us that so many Tarentine nobles were killed in this battle that democratic elements in the state were able to change the constitution to a democracy from a constitutional government (Pol. 1303a).

    Iapyges is the name of all Illyrians in the Apulia [Messapii - Peucetii - Dauni]

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Nobody1

    Which male lines do you think this Iapyges carried into Italy i tend to believe E-V13 and maybe some R1b too.

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    The iapyges where J2. What Iapyges was of E-V13 was Magna Grecia influence. Legends have it the iapygians and their three tribes came from CRETE, not the Illyrian coast. If Opus/Opis have anything to do with southern italian Opici/Oscans, then the oscans where Cretans mixed with Umbrian type people's once in Italy. Look up ancient cities of the messapi, peucetii, and dauni; their records state the founding fathers where Cretans in Iapygia (modern day apulia). J2 peaks at some 40-45% in the gargano region near Foggia in northern apulia; R1b is as low as 10-15%. Peucetis, daunus and Messapus where also three of the fifty sons of LYcaon, who hailed from Lycaonia (south-central turkey) not far from the Lukka lands (Lycia). This tells us that these Cretans where formerly anatolians such as Lydians, high in middle eastern J2a. Study after study proves that apulian J2's cluster closer to Turks while many calabrese J2's cluster more with the mainland Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have updated the E1b1b map (don't forget to refresh your browser as usual).
    Southwest Bulgaria (including Sofia) is bellow 20%. And this is based on a solid sample from the last bulgarian study.

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    Also for Romania, based on three different researches the distribution does not comply with the map. From that data I would conclude this:
    Transylvania 15-20%
    Wallachia around 15%
    Romanian Moldavia around 10%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't Messapians, a supposed Illyrian tribe, to have settled in Apulia?

    That would explain the E-V13 and would clear once for all the I2a1b presence in Balkans since it demonstrates it wasn't imported in Italy at all.
    there is talk that the messapii are epirotes because Pyrrhus the great invasion of italy against the romans spoke and recruited messapii troops . Pyrrhus was king of the epirotes.
    But he also knew Greek, but gained no support militarily from the then Greek southern italian towns of taranto etc.


    the only link that messapii was illyrian was IF when the illyrians ( only liburni illyrians ) conquered corfu and where eventually thrown out by the greeks, the remainder of these settled in messapii. But a linguistic link was never proven
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Yes,

    The Iapyges - [Messapii - Peucetii - Dauni] were Illyrian tribes all located in the South East [Apulia]

    The Illyrian tribes of the Apulia were in constant warfare with Magna Graecia and the Greeks; first the Iapygian King Opis was killed in battle but than the Iapyges had the decisive victory over the Greeks;

    Herodotus -

    Iapygians, and at the same time becoming inhabitants of the mainland instead of islanders. From Hyria they afterwards founded those other towns which the Tarentines at a much later period endeavoured to take, but could not, being defeated signally. Indeed so dreadful a slaughter of Greeks never happened at any other time, so far as my knowledge extends: nor was it only the Tarentines who suffered; but the men of Rhegium too, who had been forced to go to the aid of the Tarentines by Micythus the son of Choerus, lost here three thousand of their citizens; while the number of the Tarentines who fell was beyond all count.

    Carl Huffman
    - Archytas of Tarentum (2005) [Cambridge Uni.]
    Even more important was a defeat suffered by Tarentum and her ally Rhegium at the hands of the Iapygians in 473 (D.S. x1. 52). Herodotus says that this was the greatest slaughter of Greeks of which he knows; 3,000 soldiers from Rhegium alone died, with no number having been put to the Tarentine dead (vn. 170). Aristotle tells us that so many Tarentine nobles were killed in this battle that democratic elements in the state were able to change the constitution to a democracy from a constitutional government (Pol. 1303a).

    Iapyges is the name of all Illyrians in the Apulia [Messapii - Peucetii - Dauni]
    you are mixing up your tribes

    The Iapydes (or Iapodes, Japodes, Giapidi) (Greek,"Ιάποδες") were an ancient people who dwelt north of and inland from the Liburnians, off the Adriatic coast and eastwards of the Istrian peninsula. They occupied the interior of the country between the Colapis (Kupa) and Oeneus (Una) rivers, and the Velebit mountain range (Mons Baebius) which separated them from the coastal Liburnians. Their territory covered the central inlands of modern Croatia and Una River Valley in today's Bosnia and Herzegovina. Archaeological documentation confirms their presence in these countries at least from 9th century BC, and they persisted in their area longer than a millennium. The ancient written documentation on inland Iapydes is scarcer than on the adjacent coastal peoples (Liburni, Delmatae, etc.) that had more frequent maritime contacts with ancient Greeks and Romans.

    Iapyges are land locked illyrians basically modern eastern Bosnia. They have
    13.3% R1a
    26.67% R1b
    13.33% E3b
    6.67% J2
    0 I1b
    remainders is other types

    study from 2007-2010

    the highest E are the Dardanians from modern Kosovo at 36.80% and the Taulanti in northern Albania or ancient EpirusNova at 27%.
    Taulanti where either illyrian or epirotes? Pyrrhus the king of Epirus from the southern molossian people seeked refuge as a boy with the king of the taulanti confederation once the macedonians overun his epirote Molossian people.

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    I believe that to be false personally.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Peucii people
    There are 2 tribes, south peucii spoke an umbrian dialect and it is recorded as being non-illyrian and north peucii spoke liburnian ( illyrian )

    Liburni illyrians
    38.4% R1a
    16.40% R1b
    0 % E3b
    10.9% J2
    9.50% I1b

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    Pecetius and daunus are sons of Lycaon, not to mention Messapus. Iapygians is based off a hero of Crete, Iapyx.

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    Lycaon was son of Pelasgus

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    you are mixing up your tribes
    No there is not a mix up,

    The Iapyges of Apulia are Illyrians [coming from the Balkans] and pos. stemm from the Iapydes (Iapodes) in Illyria;

    Herodotus, Strabo, Polybius all clearly account the Iapyges (Messapii - Dauni - Peucenii) in Southern Italy;
    Herodotus according to the Greek Mythology accounts the Messapi to be Cretans brothers of Icarus;
    But the Messapic language is Indo-European;

    The Iapyges [Dauni - Messapii] are also Archaeologically attested all across Apulia; also their Linguistic inscriptions are all across Apulia. - Prof. Whatmough

    I think you are mixing the Piceni with the Peucenti;
    the Piceni were Sabellian [Umbrian] and the Peucenti were Illyrian [Iapyges]

    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Pecetius and daunus are sons of Lycaon, not to mention Messapus. Iapygians is based off a hero of Crete, Iapyx.
    Yes, but this is Mythology
    Messapic is def. Indo-European;

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    @ Nobody,

    how certain you are hat Iapodes and Iapyges are the same?

    Καλαβρια Calabria if we exclude the Greek Καλος+φρεαρ (Βρυα), then we see Thracian -Bria.

    messapians we see mess- a common we found in Peloponese Messenia, Crete Messara etc.

    we know that Messapians spoke an IE language which today small vocabulary survived in Aromani, Romanian, and Albanian, since they moved to Balkans from Messapia.


    Strabo mentions about Iapodes that they lived and tatoo like Getans, but they were armed like Celts and they eat zea bread something that also Greeks did, especially in campaigns (Ζειδωρον + Οψον)
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Iapyges used Mycenaean Greek pottery + culture and came from Crete; they where classified as a J2 "pelasgic" type; they would have been similar to Lydians lycians and Carians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    @ Nobody,

    how certain you are hat Iapodes and Iapyges are the same?

    Καλαβρια Calabria if we exclude the Greek Καλος+φρεαρ (Βρυα), then we see Thracian -Bria.

    messapians we see mess- a common we found in Peloponese Messenia, Crete Messara etc.

    we know that Messapians spoke an IE language which today small vocabulary survived in Aromani, Romanian, and Albanian, since they moved to Balkans from Messapia.


    Strabo mentions about Iapodes that they lived and tatoo like Getans, but they were armed like Celts and they eat zea bread something that also Greeks did, especially in campaigns (Ζειδωρον + Οψον)
    Iapodes became Illyro-thracian people as the thracians pushed from east to west to stop the incursion of the celts from the west. the illyrians by strabo times where already celtinized

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