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Thread: Distribution of G2a in Italy (Boattini et al.)

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    Post Distribution of G2a in Italy (Boattini et al.)

    I have calculated the provincial percentages of G2a in Italy based on the recent study by Boattini et al.

    The new data significantly alters the known distribution of G2a across the peninsula. Extremely high frequencies (20-25%) were observed in Abruzzo, Molise, Basilicata and Calabria. The frequencies in northern Italy are also considerably higher than in past studies. On the other hand, the data for Sardinia is a bit lower.

    The hotspots in central Calabria and around Matera match Achaean Greek colonies (from central Peloponnese).

    The high concentration of G2a along the Apennines are probably a relic of Neolithic populations who sought refuge in the mountains after successive waves of invaders (Italics, Etruscans, Greeks) took the coastal and lowland areas. The same phenomenon can be observed a bit everywhere in Europe (Alps, Sardinia, Corsica, Thessaly, Caucasus).


    North Italy

    In Cuneo, south-west Piedmont, 3 out of 30 samples are G2a (10%),.

    In Savona/Genova, central Liguria, 2 out of 50 samples are G2a (4%).

    In Como, north-west Lombardy, 3 out of 41 samples are G2a (7.5%).

    In Brescia, north-east Lombardy, 5 out of 39 samples are G2a (13%).

    In Vicenza, central-west Veneto, 2 out of 40 samples are G2a (5%).

    In Treviso, central-east Veneto, 3 out of 30 samples are G2a (10%).

    In Bologna, central Emilia-Romagna, 3 out of 29 samples G2a (10.5%).


    Central Italy

    In La Spezia-Massa, north-west Tuscany, 2 out of 24 samples are G2a (8.5%).

    In Pistoia, central-north Tuscany, 1 out of 13 samples are G2a (7.5%).

    In Grosetto-Siena, southern Tuscany, 4 out of 86 samples are G2a (4.5%) + one G1 sample.

    In Foligno, central-east Umbria, 6 out of 37 samples are G2a (16%) + one G1 sample.

    In Macerata, central-east Marche, 4 out of 40 samples are G2a (10%).


    South Italy

    In L'Aquila, Abruzzo, 5 out of 23 samples are G2a (21.5%).

    In Campobasso, Molise, 7 out of 29 samples are G2a (24%).

    In Benevento, Campania, 4 out of 36 samples are G2a (11%) + one G2c sample.

    In Matera, Basilicata, 6 samples out of 25 are G2a (24%) + one G1 sample.

    In Lecce, Apulia, 3 out of 39 samples are G2a (7.5%).

    In Cosenza/Catanzaro/Crotone, Calabria, 8 out of 38 samples were G2a (21%).

    In Catania, eastern Sicily, 5 out of 62 samples are G2a (8%).

    In Ragusa, southeast Sicily, 5 out of 44 samples are G2a (11.5%).

    In Agrigento, southwest Sicily, 6 out of 42 samples are G2a (14.5%).

    In Olbia/Tempio/Nuoro, north-east Sardinia, 5 out of 40 samples are G2a (12.5%).

    In Oristano, central-west Sardinia, 6 out of 42 samples are G2a (14.5%).
    Last edited by Maciamo; 09-06-13 at 00:23.
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Here is the updated G2a map.


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    Vincenza actually has 2 G2a-P15 samples and map looks awesome thank you

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here is the updated G2a map.


    looks like G went by sea to Italy and via romania to the alps. then again by sea is very unlikely, more accurate would be that the lighter shaded areas of G was replaced by other peoples over time
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here is the updated G2a map.


    curious
    Are you doing a similar thing for R1a and T ...........and maybe the smallish Q and L

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    looks like G went by sea to Italy and via romania to the alps. then again by sea is very unlikely, more accurate would be that the lighter shaded areas of G was replaced by other peoples over time

    yes, exactly...

    Etruscans seems to had lacked G2a, which looks a bit strange considering a hotspot in Lydia - their place of origin, but that likely indicates that G2a spread to Lydia only after their departure...
    same is with Veneti, who origin in Paphlagonia... this indicates again later spread of G2a to Asia minor perhaps as late as with Turks or maybe earlier with Galatians and Phrygians (note that Phrygians are thought to have been Bryges prior to moving to Phrygia from Balkan and note the hotspot in Bryges location in ancient Greece) ...
    same is with Greek colonies...they show notable lack of G2a...


    hotspot of G2a maps to Umbrians and Mesapic speakers and also to Sardinia but I believe spread on Sardinia is due to Umbrians and Alans while Sardinia was originally I2a place (island name fitting tribal name pattern for I2a)

    Celts might have originally had significant G2a...which shows in Alps and north Italy...also regarding Bryges, Phrygians and Galatians

    as for Spain it looks as clear match to Alani, who are known to have lived in Carthagena province and in west Lusitania... its also possible that part of west Lusitania Alans migrated to lands of Suebi when their state was destroyed by Goths... spread in north Africa can be Alani signature as well...

    http://books.google.nl/books?id=cbfORLWv1HkC&lpg=PA5&ots=tYQkGo3aUV&dq=al ani%20cartagena%20goths&hl=nl&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q=a lani%20cartagena%20goths&f=false








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    I beg to differ, G2a was in Europe LONG before the Etruscans arrived and the Etruscans may have brought a minor G2a substratum along with them as we'll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    I beg to differ, G2a was in Europe LONG before the Etruscans arrived and the Etruscans may have brought a minor G2a substratum along with them as we'll.
    if this is comment to my post.... "Etruscans seems to had lacked G2a" = Etruscans seems to had no G2a
    (lack = miss, not have)



    I will now focus on Celtic connection


    G2a might have arrived in Europe in 7th-8th century BC with Thraco-Cimmerians
    Its the culture that origins in Coban culture (in area Osetia and Georgia) which is strong G2 area..




    this doesnot look like G2a spread, but note that Cimmerians were pushed out from north of Black sea by Scythians....

    Cimmerians have made conquest in Asia minor, conquered Phrygia and attacked Lydia where they managed to capture capital Sardis... could this be a G2a line extending from Caucasus to Lydia? not sure because I do not expect Cimmerians to have left so significant imprint...but its possible

    Cimbri and Cymry are thought to origin from Cimmerians...

    Cymry - indeed Wales has elevated G2a, while Cimbri are nation that has disappeared in wars and movements all over Europe

    The term Thraco-Cimmerian (thrako-kimmerisch) was first introduced by I. Nestor in the 1930s. It reflects a "migrationist" tendency in the archaeology of the first half of the 20th century to equate material archaeology with historical ethnicities. Nestor did intend to suggest that there was a historical migration of Cimmerians into Eastern Europe from the area of the former Srubna culture, perhaps triggered by the Scythian expansion, at the beginning of the European Iron Age. This "migrationist" or "invasionist" view, assuming that the development of the mature Hallstatt culture (Hallstatt C) was triggered by a Cimmerian invasion, was the scholarly mainstream until the 1980s. In the 1980s and 1990s, more systematic studies of the artefacts revealed a more gradual development over the period covering the 9th to 7th centuries, so that today the "invasionist" scenario or is considered untenable, and the term "Thraco-Cimmerian" is used by convention and does not necessarily imply a direct connection with either the Thracians or the Cimmerians.
    Archaeologically, Thraco-Cimmerian artifacts consist of grave goods and hoards. The artifacts labelled Thraco-Cimmerian all belong to a category of upper class, luxury objects, like weapons, horse tacks and jewelry, and they are recovered only from a small percentage of graves of the period. They are metal (usually bronze) items, particularly parts of horse tacks, found in a late Urnfield context, but without local Urnfield predecessors for their type. They appear rather to spread from the Koban cultureof the Caucasus and northern Georgia, which together with the Srubna culture, blends into the 9th to 7th centuries pre-ScythianChernogorovka and Novocherkassk cultures. By the 7th century, Thraco-Cimmerian objects are spread further west over most of Eastern and Central Europe, locations of finds reaching to Denmark and eastern Prussia in the north and to Lake Zürich in the west. Together with these bronze artifacts, earliest Iron items appear, ushering in the European Iron Age, corresponding to the Proto-Celtic expansion from the Hallstatt culture.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerian

    I can imagine Cimmerians originating from Koban culture in Caucasus (Koban area /Caucasus is G2a dominant area) and spreading north of Black sea...than being pushed by Scythians...part goes over Caucasus and invade Asia minor, part spills into Central Europe using Danube as a main route... they reach Hallstatt area... they become core element in proto-Celtic development.... and from this core in Hallstatt area they spread on all sides....part goes to Denmark where they are known as Cimbri...part goes to Wales where they are known as Cymry... part invades Gaul where they are known as Kymris...... part goes to Italy... where they are called Umbrians.....giving rise to proto-italic languages that are deeply linked to celtic languages



    on origin of Gauls
    Following the climate deterioration in the late Nordic Bronze Age, Celtic Gaul was invaded by tribes (named Kymris by some French historians) later called Gauls originating in the Germano-Celtic border - the Rhine and the Danube (Hercynian forest) - during the 6th or 5th century BC. Gauls under Brennusinvaded Rome circa 390 BC.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauls


    Umbrians - could it be tribal name originating from same source as Cimbri?

    we know that Celtic and italic languages are more linked with each other than with the rest of PIE languages...so it is possible that there is also some shared genetic legacy... could it be G2a?

    in the end, Cimmerian = Gomerian is origin of name Germans and it was applied to modern Germans because Roman historians have interpreted word as "seed" and suspected that Germanic people are original Celts...

    I would not say they were original Celts, but I believe that these people have contributed to proto-Celtic development...


    note that assuming Cimmerians as proto-Celts /proto-Gauls is also logical explanation of Celtic Galatians in Asia minor...


    one interesting question is whether G2a has played some role in transfer of PIE languages over Europe?

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    I will add explanation for two G2a hotspots in locations on Atlantic coasts - one in southwest France and once in Belgium..

    soutwest France hotspot judging by location could be legacy of tribe Garumna - which looks as tribal name of same source as Germani /Cimmerian

    the one in Belgium seems to match Ambiani... a tribal name clustering with Cimbri and Umbrians



    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ibes_Towns.png


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    something more about italic Umbri

    Pliny the Elder wrote concerning the folk-etymology of the name:
    The Umbrian people are thought the oldest in Italy; they are believed to have been called Ombrii (here, "the people of the thunderstorm," after ὅμβρος, "thunderstorm") by the Greeks because they survived the deluge (literally "the inundation of the lands by thunderstorms, imbribus). The Etruscans vanquished 300 Umbrian cities.[2]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbrians

    deluge might have been about Black sea deluge
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_S...uge_hypothesis

    and we know that haplogroup G2a is very concentrated on edges of Black sea... so it may be that G2a people were the ones who suffered the most from this deluge....

    survival of deluge also make sense to compare with interpretations of Cimmerian/Gomerian link to Gomer the grandson of Noah

    Gomer, son of Japheth. Usually identified with the migratory Gimirru (Cimmerians) of Assyrian inscriptions, attested from about 720 BC
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Noah

    The name Germany and the other similar-sounding names above are all derived from the Latin Germania, of the 3rd century BC, a word of uncertain origin. The name appears to be a Gaulish term, and there is no evidence that it was ever used by the Germanic tribes themselves.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_o..._from_Germania

    Latin germanus = "genuine"
    "germen" (archaic form of germ) = "seed" or "offshoot"

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have calculated the provincial percentages of G2a in Italy based on the recent study by Boattini et al.

    The new data significantly alters the known distribution of G2a across the peninsula. Extremely high frequencies (20-25%) were observed in Abruzzo, Molise, Basilicata and Calabria. The frequencies in northern Italy are also considerably higher than in past studies. On the other hand, the data for Sardinia is a bit lower.

    The hotspots in central Calabria and around Matera match Achaean Greek colonies (from central Peloponnese).

    The high concentration of G2a along the Apennines are probably a relic of Neolithic populations who sought refuge in the mountains after successive waves of invaders (Italics, Etruscans, Greeks) took the coastal and lowland areas. The same phenomenon can be observed a bit everywhere in Europe (Alps, Sardinia, Corsica, Thessaly, Caucasus).


    North Italy

    In Cuneo, south-west Piedmont, 3 out of 30 samples are G2a (10%),.

    In Savona/Genova, central Liguria, 2 out of 50 samples are G2a (4%).

    In Como, north-west Lombardy, 3 out of 41 samples are G2a (7.5%).

    In Brescia, north-east Lombardy, 5 out of 39 samples are G2a (13%).

    In Vicenza, central-west Veneto, 2 out of 40 samples are G2a (5%).

    In Treviso, central-east Veneto, 3 out of 30 samples are G2a (10%).

    In Bologna, central Emilia-Romagna, 3 out of 29 samples G2a (10.5%).


    Central Italy

    In La Spezia-Massa, north-west Tuscany, 2 out of 24 samples are G2a (8.5%).

    In Pistoia, central-north Tuscany, 1 out of 13 samples are G2a (7.5%).

    In Grosetto-Siena, southern Tuscany, 4 out of 86 samples are G2a (4.5%) + one G1 sample.

    In Foligno, central-east Umbria, 6 out of 37 samples are G2a (16%) + one G1 sample.

    In Macerata, central-east Marche, 4 out of 40 samples are G2a (10%).


    South Italy

    In L'Aquila, Abruzzo, 5 out of 23 samples are G2a (21.5%).

    In Campobasso, Molise, 7 out of 29 samples are G2a (24%).

    In Benevento, Campania, 4 out of 36 samples are G2a (11%) + one G2c sample.

    In Matera, Basilicata, 6 samples out of 25 are G2a (24%) + one G1 sample.

    In Lecce, Apulia, 3 out of 39 samples are G2a (7.5%).

    In Cosenza/Catanzaro/Crotone, Calabria, 8 out of 38 samples were G2a (21%).

    In Catania, eastern Sicily, 5 out of 62 samples are G2a (8%).

    In Ragusa, southeast Sicily, 5 out of 44 samples are G2a (11.5%).

    In Agrigento, southwest Sicily, 6 out of 42 samples are G2a (14.5%).

    In Olbia/Tempio/Nuoro, north-east Sardinia, 5 out of 40 samples are G2a (12.5%).

    In Oristano, central-west Sardinia, 6 out of 42 samples are G2a (14.5%).
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here is the updated G2a map.

    @Maciamo,
    Thank you for all these updated maps based on Boattini et al

    I do have one disagreement, however, in regards to your grouping of these results both in this thread and in all the others which concern the Boattini y dna results. La Spezia is a Ligurian city by any measure, and Massa and the Lunigiana and Garfagnana to the north, (which is where some portion at least of these tested people originate )while they have been administratively part of Tuscany from the time of the Medici, are not Tuscan in language, culture etc. Instead, their language and culture is the same mix of Ligurian and Emilian that is present in La Spezia.

    In Italy, the linguistic line is very important and also has implications for changes in genetics. Since the days of Rome, the demarcation line for separating "Italy" proper from the north was a line that passed just around Massa on the west and the Rubicon on the East. That demarcation line has held pretty consistently in terms of linguistics. The linguistic line is called the Massa-Senigallia line (previously called the La-Spezia-Rimini line, but more careful linguistic analysis, in my opinion, puts the line south of Massa.)

    Also, in terms of cultural and historical development, as I said, the area from La Spezia and surrounding coastal areas then north through the valleys and over the Apennines into Emilia have long standing ties. So much so that attempts were made to create an area called Lunezia that would have incorporated all these areas. That has come to nothing, but the Lunigiana is scheduled to be reincorporated with Liguria administratively.

    In trying to make sense of the y dna (or mt dna) of Italy, it's important to know which groups have developed historically and pre-historically in concert. I think that the U-152 center of gravity, for example, does not extend into the heavily Etruscan areas like Tarquinia. At least that's how it looks to me now. In fact, in looking at this map, I think an argument could be made that there was an influx of differnt peoples from the east end of the Alps, through the valley of the Po and then down the west coast of Italy that diluted some of the G2a that might have been present there.

    I will have to check, but I also don't know if your general R1b map shows the 71% R1b present in La Spezia.

    As to the comments that are being made on this thread by other posters in terms of the presence or lack or it in the Etruscans, I would just point out that many of the most important Etruscan settlements were very close to Rome, and those ancient towns are in the darker G areas. For example, Tarquinia was the chief of the Etruscan cities and is in the darker shaded areas.

    That's not to say that I think the Etruscans mainly carried G2a. I have no idea what they carried. I'll wait for some adna. I also have no idea if there was any mass movement from Anatolia or even a movement of elites to "Etruria" from Anatolia during the first milennium BC. The early mt dna studies are worthless in my opinion, because they were done when we didn't yet have the sub-classifications that we have now. Indeed, one of the original researchers who worked on the paper that proclaimed some of the ancient Etruscan mt dna to be recent arrivals from Anatolia has since stated that it could just as likely have arrived in the Neolithic. Again, I think we need to have further, more sophisticated typing and dating of the mtdna.

    As for the G2a in general, it's obvious to me that it has been present in Italy since the Neolithic. After all, Otzi, who lived in the Italian Alps 3300 B.C. is G2a, and G2a has been found in Cardial remains in coastal Europe from far before that. That isn't to say that there haven't been repeated inflows of G2a later in history that are affiliated with other specific cultural groups.

    What most interests me about the G2a in the Boattini paper is that some of it, the cluster shared with the Tyrol, is so very old, that to me, it raises the possibility at least, that some G2a was already in southern Europe during the Mesolithic era.

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    Thanks for this sensible post, Angela

    for Y-G? it is a light HG interm of total percentages in W-Europe, but it is very variated and surely arrived in Occident various places at different times with very different cultures, sometimes in dominant position ( the first ones and maybe the last ones) sometimes in inferior condition. I have no absolute religion for now, I rather think the N Alps G2 are for a big part the Cardial male and coastal bearers passed through diverses passes and rivers (the Rhone by instance) from sea - around 6000 BC they would be arrived in Corsica and surroundings: culturally 'neolithic' but as old as the neolitic people in Eastern Europe so pioneers in a lasting Mesolithic in W-Europe - 'neolithic' is a confusing notion sometimes according to the criteria: chronology, way of life and technics: and very often in prehistory we see geographically and chronologically close cultures with very different ways of life spite some contacts - history is not linear at the detailed scale -

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    G-L497
    Spatial frequency distribution of the median HT cluster specific for haplogroup G-L497 in Europe. The frequency data were obtained by a search in the YHRD (release 41) and comprise 260 samples belonging to the median HT cluster found in 34,386 samples from 173 European population samples (sample size > 50). The sample locations are indicated by “+”.



    Clearly G2a3 hg did not come by boat to north Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    G-L497
    Spatial frequency distribution of the median HT cluster specific for haplogroup G-L497 in Europe. The frequency data were obtained by a search in the YHRD (release 41) and comprise 260 samples belonging to the median HT cluster found in 34,386 samples from 173 European population samples (sample size > 50). The sample locations are indicated by “+”.



    Clearly G2a3 hg did not come by boat to north Italy
    did they travel with the I2a "cimmeranians' ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    did they travel with the I2a "cimmeranians' ?
    I think now that it may have been other way around....
    that Cimmerians were G2a people and I2a has travelled with them in scope of Thraco-Cimmerian movement...

    note that archeological DNA from bronze age Thrace is I2a1...
    also note that I2a haplogroup tribal name is reflected in Sardinia, which is the part with most I2a1 in Italy...

    in addition, in Caucasus, Cimmeri and Serbi are captured by Pliny as separate by neighbouring tribes...

    After passing Cimmerium, the coast1 is inhabited by the Mæotici, the Vali, the Serbi,2 the Arrechi, the Zingi, and the Psessi. We then come to the river Tanais,3 which discharges itself into the sea by two mouths, and the banks of which are inhabited by the Sarmatæ, the descendants of the Medi, it is said, a people divided into numerous tribes.
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...ighlight=serbi

    in fact the text above shows also that ancient Serbs were probably not Sarmatians either... they are listed separately and Sarmatae are descendants of Medi people which are Medae from Iran...not much I2a there...perhaps R1a... ancient Serbi/Serboi lived in south Russia which is still part of Russia with most I2a-din...

    Due to I2a1 spread I am considering to add Iberians to ancient I2a tribal name group (Sardinians, Serbi/Serboi, Sherdana, Kurds. Scordisci/Serdi...maybe Scirii as well)...and because Sardana dance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardana which is more alike (regarding movements not music) to Balkan, Kurdish and Caucasus traditional circle dances than alike to west European dances....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P45b23T1GwQ

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    I think now that it may have been other way around....
    that Cimmerians were G2a people and I2a has travelled with them in scope of Thraco-Cimmerian movement...

    note that archeological DNA from bronze age Thrace is I2a1...
    also note that I2a haplogroup tribal name is reflected in Sardinia, which is the part with most I2a1 in Italy...

    in addition, in Caucasus, Cimmeri and Serbi are captured by Pliny as separate by neighbouring tribes...


    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...ighlight=serbi

    in fact the text above shows also that ancient Serbs were probably not Sarmatians either... they are listed separately and Sarmatae are descendants of Medi people which are Medae from Iran...not much I2a there...perhaps R1a... ancient Serbi/Serboi lived in south Russia which is still part of Russia with most I2a-din...

    Due to I2a1 spread I am considering to add Iberians to ancient I2a tribal name group (Sardinians, Serbi/Serboi, Sherdana, Kurds.)...and because Sardana dance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardana which is more alike to Balkan, Kurdish and Caucasus traditional dances than alike to west European dances....
    doubt very much the cimmerians where G2a even though they where thracian related. they entered the balkans around 650BC way to late to influence G2a in alpine areas.
    G2a was from caucasus area

    The cimmerians had to be I2a people who brought I2a to old yugoslav lands centuries before the slavs arrived. the origin of I2a is in the Ukraine.

    The I2a1 in thracian lands is only along the black sea coast , clearly coming south from modovian area. Moldovia number 1 Ydna is I2a

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    doubt very much the cimmerians where G2a even though they where thracian related. they entered the balkans around 650BC way to late to influence G2a in alpine areas.
    G2a was from caucasus area

    The cimmerians had to be I2a people who brought I2a to old yugoslav lands centuries before the slavs arrived. the origin of I2a is in the Ukraine.

    The I2a1 in thracian lands is only along the black sea coast , clearly coming south from modovian area. Moldovia number 1 Ydna is I2a
    that's what i believed for years....

    but if you look my posts above G2a settlements across Europe are marked with tribal group pattern: Umbrians, Ambiani, Kymris, Cymry and Garumna, which all is perfect match to Cimmerian / Gomerian tribal name pattern...

    while I2a has correspondence with tribal name pattern Sardinians, Serbi/Serboi, Sherdana, Kurds, Scordisci/Serdi, Serbs, Sardis (Asia minor), Serres (Greece), Serdica & Krobyzoi (thrace), Siraces...and probably Scirii as well considering I2a-Din south in Baltic and elsewhere on Scirii locations

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    that's what i believed for years....

    but if you look my posts above G2a settlements across Europe are marked with tribal group pattern: Umbrians, Ambiani, Kymris, Cymry and Garumna, which all is perfect match to Cimmerian / Gomerian tribal name pattern...

    while I2a has correspondence with tribal name pattern Sardinians, Serbi/Serboi, Sherdana, Kurds, Scordisci/Serdi, Serbs, Sardis (Asia minor), Serres (Greece), Serdica & Krobyzoi (thrace), Siraces...and probably Scirii as well considering I2a-Din south in Baltic and elsewhere on Scirii locations
    a map is enough to you to make so precise deductions? by instance, Cymry (Welshes) are not in a hotspot of Y-G2a (maps are approximations with arbitrary limits: a change of colour in regions of scarce distribution can separate two regions differing by only 1%: hard to lift a complete theory) AND:...Cymry (=~Combrogi) # Cimmerians
    - in italy SOME OF THE G2 settlements predated the name of Ambiani - maybe some Anatolia and Caucasus tribes names could be linked to SOME Y-G2 MORE THAN TO Y-I2a1b so...? and I 'm not aware of a Cimmerian link with western Balkans?!?
    but here I have the impression to repeat myself and repeat other posters: be carefull when linking tribes names!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    a map is enough to you to make so precise deductions? by instance, Cymry (Welshes) are not in a hotspot of Y-G2a (maps are approximations with arbitrary limits: a change of colour in regions of scarce distribution can separate two regions differing by only 1%: hard to lift a complete theory) AND:...Cymry (=~Combrogi) # Cimmerians


    it is a hotspot of G2a compared to neighboring areas of UK...
    and such a hotspot is a mark of a settlement wave..
    based on a number of things (some explained in previous posts, some later in this one) i believe it is reasonable to link it to the spread of Cimmerians.....


    your assumption is that Cymry is derived from Britonic "combrogi" = "compatriot; Welshman"
    but I claim combrogi is coin word from root "com "(meaning "shared" as in common and compatriot) + old welsh brogi (teritory/state)... meaning "shared state" or people living in the same state...

    combrogi is not a tribal name.... it is based on the loan word from english...

    what people would base their tribal name/identity on a loan word whose meaning is"common" / "shared"? whole point of tribal names is that they are something that makes them special compared to surroundings...

    it is though not uncommon that tribal names have a meaning "people" but that is the case when the word for people is different than in surrounding people.... "common" doesnot fall into that category.... besides its brittish word... welsh word for common are

    cytir n.m. (cytiroedd) cyd ..and for "shared" "rhannu"... and for "people" tud n.f. gwerin n.f. (gwerinoedd) pobl

    so combrogi is not tribal name carrying identity, but Cymry can be....

    in ancient Britain Deceangli, Ordovices and Silures are tribal names within Welsh speaking people... but there must be also a common name for tribes speaking same language... why not Cymry?
    considering that Welsh language is
    originally known as Cymraeg / Gymraeg
    neither
    Cymraeg nor Gymraeg can be derived from Combrogi
    but they are easily derived from Cimmerian/Gommerian


    you might be confused by reading that Cymry is attested as early as 7th century...and that attempts for linking it to Cimmerians were attested in 17th century...attested doesnot mean that words and interpretations didnot exist before.... there are not much documents from ancient times...

    Cymry makes no sense as derivation from combrogi... Cimbri might make some sense...but Cimbri are, for all we know, unrelated people in Denmark...

    -----------------------------------------


    - in italy SOME OF THE G2 settlements predated the name of Ambiani - maybe some Anatolia and Caucasus
    no Ambiani in Italy... you prob think of Umbrians...

    G2 was widespread in Europe in neolithics...
    but it would not survive arrival of new haplogroups (that have replaced G2a throughout Europe) in places that are not isolated and mountainous....
    so spreads on not isolated places are likely to be more recent waves...
    if you do not believe in several waves of G2a throughout history, just look at Alans...they did bring considerable G2a to Spain....

    tribes names could be linked to SOME Y-G2 MORE THAN TO Y-I2a1b so...?
    i think I make very reasonable assumption with idea that tribal name patterns as carriers of tribal identity did leave some marks in genetic data....correlations i have shown in posts above are clear...where there is elevated G2a there is often tribal name from haplogroup pattern (Umbrians, Ambiani, Kymris, Cymry and Garumna, Cymraeg/Gymraeg, Cimmerians/Gomerians), when there is no G2a elevation there is no such a name as genuine tribal identity carrier (Germans is exonym assigned in more recent times)...


    and I 'm not aware of a Cimmerian link with western Balkans?!?
    I never mentioned it....
    Zanipolo claimed that I2a came to west Balkans with Cimmerians...
    I never claimed anything like that.... when I was in past connecting I2a to Cimmerians, I was always relating its arrival to west Balkans mostly with south Slavs and also with Scordisci and Sherdana that followed Danube (and not west Balkans) spreading from continental Europe to east same as Cimmerians did follow the Danube going from Black sea to continental Europe...river valleys are convenient for mass migrations of military dominant people... easy to follow....no unexpected ambushes...


    but here I have the impression to repeat myself and repeat other posters: be carefull when linking tribes names!

    links between similar tribal names supported by some shared genetical footprint are much better indication of connection than lot of crap hypothesized by many historians and linguists in past.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post

    I never mentioned it....
    Zanipolo claimed that I2a came to west Balkans with Cimmerians...
    I never claimed anything like that.... when I was in past connecting I2a to Cimmerians, I was always relating its arrival to west Balkans mostly with south Slavs and also with Scordisci and Sherdana that followed Danube (and not west Balkans) spreading from continental Europe to east same as Cimmerians did follow the Danube going from Black sea to continental Europe...river valleys are convenient for mass migrations of military dominant people... easy to follow....no unexpected ambushes...



    links between similar tribal names supported by some shared genetical footprint are much better indication of connection than lot of crap hypothesized by many historians and linguists in past.....
    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...nnonia&f=false

    there are more books and papers reflecting this

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    your assumption is that Cymry is derived from Britonic "combrogi" = "compatriot; Welshman"
    but I claim combrogi is coin word from root "com "(meaning "shared" as in common and compatriot) + old welsh brogi (teritory/state)... meaning "shared state" or people living in the same state...

    combrogi is not a tribal name.... it is based on the loan word from english...

    FROM ENGLISH INDEED ?!?
    T
    ODAY NAME FOR A WELSH IN WELSH BRITTONIC CELTIC LANGUAGE IS 'CYMRO' <<CYMBRO = ALL CELTIC, BRETON 'KEMBROAD' (SUFFIXATION) - YOUR ARE RIGHT WHEN YOU SAY IT IS NOT AN OLD TRIBAL NAME AND YOU ARE RIGHT FOR THE MEANING BUT YOUR ARE WRONG CONCERNING LANGUAGE-
    YOUR CONSTRUCTION WITH 'cyt' OR 'cet' IS FUNNY: YOU DO NOT SEE THAT 'cyt'/'cyd' IN WELSH IS OF THE SAME ROOT LIKE 'cym' and 'cyf' (BRETON 'ked', 'ken', 'kem', 'kev') - THE PREFIX 'com-', 'con', 'co-' IS LATINE, INDO EUROPEAN COGNATE WITH CELTIC BUT THE GERMANIC USE RATHER 'sam' TO INDICATE COMMUNITY / THE NAME 'CYMRO' ('CYMRI' INTERNAL INFECTED PLURIEL) IS CONSIDERED AS THE NAME OF A NEW GROUPING OF TRIBES DISPLACED BY THE ANGLO-SAXONS UNITED TO LOCAL TRIBES OF WESTERN BRITANNIA: YOUR DATATION SEEMS CONFIRM THAT, FAR OF CONFIRMING YOUR ASSERTIONS -
    BY THE WAY, SILURI ARE MAYBE NOT A CELTIC TRIBE, MAYBE A MORE OLDER NON-CELTIC ONE
    ('bro' << 'brog' <> irish 'mruc' >< germanic 'mark' >> french 'marche'/'marque' <> 'marge' < latine 'margo' > new english 'merge'...


    what people would base their tribal name/identity on a loan word whose meaning is"common" / "shared"? whole point of tribal names is that they are something that makes them special compared to surroundings...

    NOT A LOAN WORD? SEE ABOVE

    it is though not uncommon that tribal names have a meaning "people" but that is the case when the word for people is different than in surrounding people.... "common" doesnot fall into that category.... besides its brittish word... welsh word for common are
    cytir n.m. (cytiroedd) cyd ..and for "shared" "rhannu"... and for "people" tud n.f. gwerin n.f. (gwerinoedd) pobl

    so combrogi is not tribal name carrying identity, but Cymry can be....

    LOOK ABOVE - I ADD 'COMBROGI' WAS ALREADY THE NAME OF A GAULIC TRIBE...in ancient Britain Deceangli, Ordovices and Silures are tribal names within Welsh speaking people... but there must be also a common name for tribes speaking same language... why not Cymry?
    considering that Welsh language is
    originally known as Cymraeg / Gymraeg
    neither
    Cymraeg nor Gymraeg can be derived from Combrogi
    but they are easily derived from Cimmerian/Gommerian


    LOOK ABOVE AGAIN

    you might be confused by reading that Cymry is attested as early as 7th century...and that attempts for linking it to Cimmerians were attested in 17th century...attested doesnot mean that words and interpretations didnot exist before.... there are not much documents from ancient times...

    LOOK ABOVE : JUST THE ANGLO SAXON INVASION PERIOD
    Cymry makes no sense as derivation from combrogi... Cimbri might make some sense...but Cimbri are, for all we know, unrelated people in Denmark...
    WE DO NOT KNOW AT ALL IF CIMBRIS WERE NOT CELTS - I BELIEVE SOME TECHNICS OF THEIR ARTS REVEALED ACCORDING TO SOMEONES OLD EAST CENTRAL GAULS METHODS AND ALLIAGES - THEIR CHIEFS HAD CELTIC NAMES AND THEIR POSITION IN N-DENMARK IS A FINAL TERMINAL PLACE AFTER WANDERING - IT IS NOT TO SAY THEIR TRIBE NAME IS THE SAME AS CYMRY BECAUSE AT THIS TIME THE 'COM' WAS NOT TURNED INTO 'CYM' (pronounced [kÖM] for your "edification" - I THINK THEY WERE BELGAE CELTS, A BET OF MINE;



    no Ambiani in Italy... you prob think of Umbrians...

    SORRY, I MADE A MISTAKE! DO NOT TAKE MY PREVIOUS REMARK IN ACCOUNT


    G2 was widespread in Europe in neolithics...
    but it would not survive arrival of new haplogroups (that have replaced G2a throughout Europe) in places that are not isolated and mountainous....
    so spreads on not isolated places are likely to be more recent waves...
    if you do not believe in several waves of G2a throughout history, just look at Alans...they did bring considerable G2a to Spain....

    I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THESE SWEAPING THESIS, SORRY - OLD Y-G2a NEOLITHICAL BEARERS STAYED IN PLACE EVEN IF OBLIGED TO SHARE TERRITORIES AND TO MIX AND LOOSE THE STRONG SIDE THEY HAD BEOFRE IN SOME PLACES OF EUROPE NOT EVERYWHERE - I
    I AGREE FOR SUBSEQUENT WAVES OF G2a - BUT ALL G2a IN IBERIA IS NOT FROM ALANI PEOPLE
    i think I make very reasonable assumption with idea that tribal name patterns as carriers of tribal identity did leave some marks in genetic data....correlations i have shown in posts above are clear...where there is elevated G2a there is often tribal name from haplogroup pattern (Umbrians, Ambiani, Kymris, Cymry and Garumna, Cymraeg/Gymraeg, Cimmerians/Gomerians), when there is no G2a elevation there is no such a name as genuine tribal identity carrier (Germans is exonym assigned in more recent times)...
    UMBRIANS AND AMBIANI HAS NOTHING TO DO ONE TOGETHER, AT LEAST AS NAMES - STILL THIS MAGIC LINGUISTIC WORLD

    I never mentioned it....
    Zanipolo claimed that I2a came to west Balkans with Cimmerians...
    I never claimed anything like that.... when I was in past connecting I2a to Cimmerians, I was always relating its arrival to west Balkans mostly with south Slavs and also with Scordisci and Sherdana that followed Danube (and not west Balkans) spreading from continental Europe to east same as Cimmerians did follow the Danube going from Black sea to continental Europe...river valleys are convenient for mass migrations of military dominant people... easy to follow....no unexpected ambushes...

    SORRY IF I MISREAD YOU FOR BALKANS AND CIMMERIANS -
    ON AN OTHER SIDE, I AM OBLIGED TO CONFESS YOUR TARGET FOR SHARDANA'S SHOOTS ME AND PUT ME ON MY BOTTOM!
    I AGRRE WITH YOU CONCERNING RIVERS BUT IT IS SHORT TO EXPLAIN EVERYTHING

    links between similar tribal names supported by some shared genetical footprint are much better indication of connection than lot of crap hypothesized by many historians and linguists in past.....
    I REPEAT WALES HAVE NO HOTSPOT OF Y-G: IT HAS ONLY A 1% TO 2% MORE THAN OTHER BRITISH PEOPLE ( I DON'T KNOW THE SAMPLE SIZE - A LITTLE BIT MORE OF NEOLITHICAL PEOPLE (SILURI AMONG THEM?) COULD EXPLAIN THAT VERY EASY!!!


    my answer are in bold capital letters among the post I answer to it. Sorry for this lack of technicity!
    logic is a thing in science, necessary, BUT verification is not too bad too.

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    It's interesting to see how most Italian samples are G2a (P15), most European samples for that matter, and that the hotspot we can see on the map in what is basically today's modern Georgia moving across Turkey and into Europe, most of them are also G2a variety, clearly marking a line of migration. Although it is probably in the darkened regions of Iran on the map that G1 would ultimately have originated. It's interesting to note that europe's highs are now officially recognized as being found in southern Italy; in regions like L'Aquila (21.5%), Campobasso (24%), Matera (25%) and Cosenza/Catanzaro/Crotone (21%). Similar frequencies to this are found nationally among Georgians (31%) and Azerbaijanis (18%) and nearby Turks/Armenians as well. Even higher frequencies are found in the Ossetians, Nakh people's of the Caucasus mountain range (88%!).

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    Clearly evidence of at least minimal gene flow from the Caucasus region towards Mediterranean Europe during the Neolithic, not much else could explain the P15 migration.As for constant evidence of ancient DNA across Central Europe being G, I find that a bit more confusing, maybe they had moved towards Iberia and even into southern Germany, since G comes up more often in DNA analysis of European skeletal remains, maybe this indicates there was less haplogroup variability at the time....either way today, Switzerland has about 2-5% hg G and same for southern Germany, so it is a very minor italy element, compared to southern Italy for example. Very low frequencies are experienced across most of Europe, but peaks can be found among Aromun Albanians (7-10%), European Ashkenazi Jews (10%), 8% of Catalonian Spanish males, 8% of hungarians, 9-10% of Greeks, 11% of Cretans, 10% of Italians, 20% of northern Sardinians, 15% of southern Sardinians, 15-20% of southern Italians and 13-15% of west Sicilians.

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    It seems that G'smeuopean expansion may. Have been bigger once but was cut down to size by certain unknown events, either way, a high in south eastern/central Mediterranean Europe certain southern italian,Sardinian, Cretan/Greek regions seem to have slightly inflated levels. In the CAUCASUS region in particular, 30-40% of Abazinian males have G. The Abkhaz have between 0-56% in their studies. The Adygey people have 28-81%. Armenians have 10-30% and Azeris have about 20%. Ossetians have 55-75%, Rutuls have 38%, Georgians have 30% etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    It seems that G'smeuopean expansion may. Have been bigger once but was cut down to size by certain unknown events, either way, a high in south eastern/central Mediterranean Europe certain southern italian,Sardinian, Cretan/Greek regions seem to have slightly inflated levels. In the CAUCASUS region in particular, 30-40% of Abazinian males have G. The Abkhaz have between 0-56% in their studies. The Adygey people have 28-81%. Armenians have 10-30% and Azeris have about 20%. Ossetians have 55-75%, Rutuls have 38%, Georgians have 30% etc.
    The climate related population collapse of cultures like LBK in central Europe could explain the tapering off of G2a, along with the entrance of other population groups from the east.

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