Distribution of I1 in Italy (Boattini et al.)

I usually agree with what you write, but how on earth would you think that U152 is of Germanic origin (and Swedish at that), while it is almost absent from Scandinavia !?

I think that he is referring to Lombards from North-West Italy, because in medieval ages Lombard was an ethnonym, derived from Germanic Longobards, used to indicate all the people from Northern-Western Italy (today Piedmont, Lombardy, Liguria, Emilia).

What kind of haplogroups do the Germanic Lombards-Longobards could have?
 
I think that the four I1 samples from Campobasso is enough to prove that the Lombards had a remarkably high percentage of haplogroup I1. Among other Germanic haplogroups found in Campobasso were three R1b-U106 and one I2b1. The sample size is small, but judging from that, the Lombards appear to have had approximately 50% of I1, 37.5% of R1b, 12.5% of I2b1 and 0% of R1a. They originated in Scania, southern Sweden, where the haplogroup proportion is similar, except for the higher R1a and lower I2b1, as well as the presence of a minority of E, G, J and T which cannot be discerned from the native Italian one in Campobasso.

IIRC the lombards are reffered to west germanic now , instead of east germanic due to linguistics. So these would be west german markers



Some people on this forum have argued that the Goths were Slavic or at least a predominantly R1a tribe because of their Eastern European origins. Yet, all the places settled by the Visigoths (southern France + Iberia) and Ostrogoths (Italy) have more I1 (and R1b-S21) than R1a. This undeniably confirms the Scandinavian origins of the Goths.

I believe the goths are baltic people originally, living between the Elbe river and samogitia as stated by ancient historians. They learnt germanic over time as neighbours of the suebi and vandili peoples ( most likely because of trade ).
They had the I1 marker plus R1a . The R1a gothic graves on the lower vistula river have never been found in scandinavia. There is continental I1 in old east germanic lands.
The ancient never called goths , germani ...or... never called germani , goths. 2 different people, 2 different cultures
 
I usually agree with what you write, but how on earth would you think that U152 is of Germanic origin (and Swedish at that), while it is almost absent from Scandinavia !?

No,
not the Germanic Langobarden from the Migration era;

This is strictly Medieval, - Lombards as in North Italians from Medieval Lombardy
[fiefdom of Holy Roman Empire]

This [Medieval] Region -
lombardy.png


Roger I of Hauteville
married Adelaide del Vasto and granted
Lombard [Christians / Latins] settlers {from Medieval Lombardy} to settle in Eastern Sicily
Renouncing.png
Lombard_Settlements_in_Sicily_002_thumbnail.gif


post# 6 -
The East was granted to Lombard (Christian / Latin) settlers; hence 7.1% R1b U-152 -Boattini 2013

post# 8 -
Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy [Boattini 2013 + other studies],
on the other hand U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;


Thats my connection and logic; U-152 = Lombards {from Lombardy

---

The Medieval Lombards were always allies of the Normannic south; from the beginning of their conquest against the Byzantines; - Battle of Montemaggiore / Battle of Olivento

Ioannes Skylitzes - 11th cen. Byzantine
Michael was defeated and lost the better part of his army, he shamefully taking refuge in Cannae. Crippled like this he was none the wiser for his wound.....took back into battle his defeated forces together with the Pisidians and Lycaonians who make up the unit of the foederati and fell on the enemy at a place called Horai. Again he was severely defeated by the Franks who had now allied with themselves a considerable host of Italians living around the river Po and in the foothills of the Alps.

The Lombards of Sicily;

Prof. Will Seymour Monroe - Spell of Sicily: The Garden of the Mediterranean (1909)
The Lombards have also retained a degree of their original purity. They accompanied Adelaide of Montferrat, wife of Roger I, to Sicily and colonized at San Fratello, Nicosia, Randazzo, Sperligna, Capizzi, and elsewhere. They are tall, broad-shouldered, and fair, and more enterprising than most of the other inhabitants. Because of their keen monetary sense they are sometimes nicknamed "Sicilian Jews". The Lombard dialect is still spoken among them.

William Harrison De Puy - The Encyclopædia Britannica: Vol.XXII (1893)
In Sicily there were many nations all protected by the Sicilian king ; but there was no Sicilian nation.
Greek, Saracen, Norman, Lombard, and Jew could not be fused into one people; it was the boast of Sicily that each kept his laws and tongue undisturbed. Such a state of things could live on only under an enlightened despotism; the discordant elements could not join to work out really free and national 'institutions.


William Agnew Paton - Picturesque Sicily (1897)
The latter curious town, situated high in the mountains, is inhabited by a people who speak a Lombard dialect, which testifies to their descent from the mercenaries who accompanied Roger in his first Sicilian campaign.


~1000 years later the Lombards still speak their Gallo-Italic language in Sicily;
 
I believe the goths are baltic people originally, living between the Elbe river and samogitia as stated by ancient historians. They learnt germanic over time as neighbours of the suebi and vandili peoples ( most likely because of trade ).
They had the I1 marker plus R1a . The R1a gothic graves on the lower vistula river have never been found in scandinavia. There is continental I1 in old east germanic lands.
The ancient never called goths , germani ...or... never called germani , goths. 2 different people, 2 different cultures

If they were Baltic they would have a considerable percentage of N1c1 lineages. Where are these in Italy and Iberia ?
 
No,
not the Germanic Langobarden from the Migration era;

This is strictly Medieval, - Lombards as in North Italians from Medieval Lombardy
[fiefdom of Holy Roman Empire]

...

~1000 years later the Lombards still speak their Gallo-Italic language in Sicily;

Ok, that makes sense now. ;)
 
If they were Baltic they would have a considerable percentage of N1c1 lineages. Where are these in Italy and Iberia ?

west-balts do not have N1c. it only came late in the area
but 1% of N1c was found in bosnia...........I have already indicated previously this

besides Ferri paper
98 from Rimini: R1b 51%, J2 17%, E3b1 11%, G 7%, E3b3a 4%, I* 4%, N3 2%
65 from Valmarecchia: R1b 46%, J2 15%, E3b1 18%, G 11%, I* 3%

has 2% of N in Rimini

other papers for the northern area are Pelotti 2008 and Turrina 2006
 
Last edited:
How late? Because it seems you're contradicted by high N1c frequencies in Old Prussian descendant claimants.

this is the N in bosnia/serbia

At least some of that is probably N1-P189.2. Search the YHRD database for

DYS19 = 14
DYS389i = 14
DYS390 = 25
DYS391 = 10
DYS392 = 14
DYS393 = 14
DYS385 = 11,16
DYS438 = 10
DYS439 = 12

2 of 215 Novi Sad, Serbia [Serbian]
2 of 220 West Croatia, Croatia [Croatian]
1 of 31 Doboj-Banja Luka-Bjeljina, Bosnia and Herzegowina [Bosnian]
1 of 629 Eastern Slovakia, Slovakia [Slovakian]
 
How late? Because it seems you're contradicted by high N1c frequencies in Old Prussian descendant claimants.

ancient west-balts included the Pomeranians or as some historians state the area called hinter-Pomerania.

kashubians replaced the term Pomeranian in hinter-Pomerania . the kashubians eventually became slavic in language.

As far as I know the baltic prusi people, be them warmians, samians etc seemed to have emerged in the dark-ages .....maybe a name change from some form of aestian confederation ( aestii)
 
It's interesting to see such a high frequency of I1, but it's even more interesting that essentially none of this is L22+; especially if we're arguing for a Swedish origin for some of it.
 
How do you figure out what your dys is?
 
It's interesting to see such a high frequency of I1, but it's even more interesting that essentially none of this is L22+; especially if we're arguing for a Swedish origin for some of it.

On the contrary what's interesting is that quite a few of the I1 samples in the south of Italy are L22. I1d-L22 has been found only in Vicenza and La Spezia in the north and Grosseto/Siena in the center, but in many places in the south (Benevento, Lecce, Agrigento, Ragusa/Siracusa). The samples from southern Sicily could be of Vandal origin, since the Normans settled mostly in northern Sicily. Benevento was a Lombard duchy. Lecce's I1d could be either Lombard or Norman.
 
On the contrary what's interesting is that quite a few of the I1 samples in the south of Italy are L22. I1d-L22 has been found only in Vicenza and La Spezia in the north and Grosseto/Siena in the center, but in many places in the south (Benevento, Lecce, Agrigento, Ragusa/Siracusa). The samples from southern Sicily could be of Vandal origin, since the Normans settled mostly in northern Sicily. Benevento was a Lombard duchy. Lecce's I1d could be either Lombard or Norman.

La Spezia (Liguria), Massa (Tuscany) and Grosseto/Siena (Tuscany) were also under a Lombard duchy (Langobardia Maior).
 
On the contrary what's interesting is that quite a few of the I1 samples in the south of Italy are L22. I1d-L22 has been found only in Vicenza and La Spezia in the north and Grosseto/Siena in the center, but in many places in the south (Benevento, Lecce, Agrigento, Ragusa/Siracusa). The samples from southern Sicily could be of Vandal origin, since the Normans settled mostly in northern Sicily. Benevento was a Lombard duchy. Lecce's I1d could be either Lombard or Norman.

Is the sample size really large enough to draw that conclusion? From Table 2, it appears that there were only four I1-L22+ samples found of which three were P109+. Over all, only 16-17% of the I1 noted in Italy is L22+. In Area II, about 14-15% is L22+, and none in Area III is. From the public data at the FTDNA haplogroup I1 project, it appears that about 55% of the Swedish I1 is L22+. It may be that these Italian data are more consistent with a continental origin of its I1.
 
Wow, Lombards from Sicily; thats impressive
Ive read that you kept (in some comunes) the Old [Medieval] Gallo-Italic language for the last 1,000 years.

U-106 i would think is more German (Swabian) Staufer period
[i edited a bit about the Catania castle later on -post#6]
R1a could also be Normannic, since R1a is significant in Norway;
But im not familiar with sub-clades since all studies state the R1a in Sicily is M-17?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results

Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy [Boattini 2013 + other studies],
on the other hand U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;

My specification: U-152 = Lombards / U-106 = Swabians[Germans] / I1-M253 = Normans [pos. also R1a]

Nobody1, very often I find your posts interesting, so I respect your suggestions - but here I don"t understand why you could assign so easily a unique SNP marker to restricted tribes of same culture: LOmbards by their history had surely Y-I1+Y-R1a+Y-R1b-U106; Y-R1b-U152 seems to me as an aside SNP among true germanic people (maybe a Teutons-Cimbers accretion? or before that some rare BBs?) - and Norwegian Nordmen had the 3 submentioned SNP as all other genuine germanic tribes: only the respective %s can change in some proportion (U106 is heavy among all-R1b in Western Norway (roughly 66%) - if we speak about late "anglo-french Normands", we could find the same SNPs yet, but mixed with others SNP of celtic and pre-celtic origin -
if you speak about modern Lombards, and not Longobards, I see as beeing more Celts than Germanics, the
n yes I agree Y-R1b U152 (of eastern P-celtic and italic "origin") would be normally frequent enough - even bavarians are not supposed to have send too much R1b-U152 with them -
general remark: the percentages I red here thank to you all are interesting but about small samples; I need more and more!!!
have a good brain strom evening!

 
if you speak about modern Lombards, and not Longobards, I see as beeing more Celts than Germanics, then yes I agree Y-R1b U152 (of eastern P-celtic and italic "origin") would be normally frequent enough - even bavarians are not supposed to have send too much R1b-U152 with them -
general remark: the percentages I red here thank to you all are interesting but about small samples; I need more and more!!!
have a good brain strom evening!

Yes medieval (modern) Lombards from North Italy; not the Germanic Langobarden of the migration era;
Its the same misunderstanding as with Maciamo, as i explained in post# 23

post #23 -
No,
not the Germanic Langobarden from the Migration era;

This is strictly Medieval, - Lombards as in North Italians from Medieval Lombardy
[fiefdom of Holy Roman Empire]

This [Medieval] Region -
lombardy.png


Roger I of Hauteville
married Adelaide del Vasto and granted
Lombard [Christians / Latins] settlers {from Medieval Lombardy} to settle in Eastern Sicily
Renouncing.png
Lombard_Settlements_in_Sicily_002_thumbnail.gif


post# 6 -
The East was granted to Lombard (Christian / Latin) settlers; hence 7.1% R1b U-152 -Boattini 2013

post# 8 -
Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy [Boattini 2013 + other studies],
on the other hand U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;


Thats my connection and logic; U-152 = Lombards {from Lombardy

---

The Medieval Lombards were always allies of the Normannic south; from the beginning of their conquest against the Byzantines; - Battle of Montemaggiore / Battle of Olivento

Ioannes Skylitzes - 11th cen. Byzantine
Michael was defeated and lost the better part of his army, he shamefully taking refuge in Cannae. Crippled like this he was none the wiser for his wound.....took back into battle his defeated forces together with the Pisidians and Lycaonians who make up the unit of the foederati and fell on the enemy at a place called Horai. Again he was severely defeated by the Franks who had now allied with themselves a considerable host of Italians living around the river Po and in the foothills of the Alps.

The Lombards of Sicily;

Prof. Will Seymour Monroe - Spell of Sicily: The Garden of the Mediterranean (1909)
The Lombards have also retained a degree of their original purity. They accompanied Adelaide of Montferrat, wife of Roger I, to Sicily and colonized at San Fratello, Nicosia, Randazzo, Sperligna, Capizzi, and elsewhere. They are tall, broad-shouldered, and fair, and more enterprising than most of the other inhabitants. Because of their keen monetary sense they are sometimes nicknamed "Sicilian Jews". The Lombard dialect is still spoken among them.

William Harrison De Puy - The Encyclopædia Britannica: Vol.XXII (1893)
In Sicily there were many nations all protected by the Sicilian king ; but there was no Sicilian nation.
Greek, Saracen, Norman, Lombard, and Jew could not be fused into one people; it was the boast of Sicily that each kept his laws and tongue undisturbed. Such a state of things could live on only under an enlightened despotism; the discordant elements could not join to work out really free and national 'institutions.


William Agnew Paton - Picturesque Sicily (1897)
The latter curious town, situated high in the mountains, is inhabited by a people who speak a Lombard dialect, which testifies to their descent from the mercenaries who accompanied Roger in his first Sicilian campaign.


~1000 years later the Lombards still speak their Gallo-Italic language in Sicily;
 
and Norwegian Nordmen had the 3 submentioned SNP as all other genuine germanic tribes: only the respective %s can change in some proportion (U106 is heavy among all-R1b in Western Norway (roughly 66%) - if we speak about late "anglo-french Normands", we could find the same SNPs yet, but mixed with others SNP of celtic and pre-celtic origin -

Thats correct, the Normans can also be a source of R1b U-106 across the Island;

The reason i linked U-106 to the Swabians[Germans] was strictly due to Boattini 2013 and its Catania result;

Catania = 11.5% R1bU-106 [52 samples] - Boattini 2013


Catania
was the main stronghold of the Hohenstaufen in Sicily;
- main garrison of Henry VI - after the conquest of Markward von Annweiler and Heinrich von Kalden
- most important Staufer castle of Frederick II (next to Enna - Lombards)

Liber ad honorem Augusti - conquest of the Normannic Kingdom of Sicily by Henry VI of Hohenstaufen
http://warfare.atspace.eu/Medieval/Liber_ad_honorem_Augusti_th.htm

Swabian knight Diepold
220px-Diepold_von_Schweinspeunt.jpg
 
It amazes me how fast and "easily" Nobody1 can bring various citations to all historical subjects. Do you remember most of this an type off your head, or did you do all this homework before and have a great collection of them?
Regardless, you have great and informative posts.
Thanks
 
I wrote Swabians[Germans] since Swabians (Svevi) was a synonym for all Germans in Normannic and Papal chronics;

That's interesting. I could never figure out why all slavic nations know Germans also as Swabi. Although Swabi is derogatory term.
 
Thank you,

Being very interested in the Historical past and everything associated with it. I read as much as i can on it, and compiled my personal collection; but of course i remember what each topic is about;
Also thank god for the Internet; many libraries have been digitalised so its really easy now to just scout through them based on topic of interest;

this is just one example (in German)
http://www.mgh.de/home/aktuelles/
 

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