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Thread: Distribution of I1 in Italy (Boattini et al.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    If they were Baltic they would have a considerable percentage of N1c1 lineages. Where are these in Italy and Iberia ?
    west-balts do not have N1c. it only came late in the area
    but 1% of N1c was found in bosnia...........I have already indicated previously this

    besides Ferri paper
    98 from Rimini: R1b 51%, J2 17%, E3b1 11%, G 7%, E3b3a 4%, I* 4%, N3 2%
    65 from Valmarecchia: R1b 46%, J2 15%, E3b1 18%, G 11%, I* 3%

    has 2% of N in Rimini

    other papers for the northern area are Pelotti 2008 and Turrina 2006
    Last edited by zanipolo; 10-06-13 at 22:52.
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    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    west-balts do not have N1c. it only came late in the area
    but 6% of N1c was found in bosnia...........I have already indicated previously this
    How late? Because it seems you're contradicted by high N1c frequencies in Old Prussian descendant claimants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    How late? Because it seems you're contradicted by high N1c frequencies in Old Prussian descendant claimants.
    this is the N in bosnia/serbia

    At least some of that is probably N1-P189.2. Search the YHRD database for

    DYS19 = 14
    DYS389i = 14
    DYS390 = 25
    DYS391 = 10
    DYS392 = 14
    DYS393 = 14
    DYS385 = 11,16
    DYS438 = 10
    DYS439 = 12

    2 of 215 Novi Sad, Serbia [Serbian]
    2 of 220 West Croatia, Croatia [Croatian]
    1 of 31 Doboj-Banja Luka-Bjeljina, Bosnia and Herzegowina [Bosnian]
    1 of 629 Eastern Slovakia, Slovakia [Slovakian]

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    How late? Because it seems you're contradicted by high N1c frequencies in Old Prussian descendant claimants.
    ancient west-balts included the Pomeranians or as some historians state the area called hinter-Pomerania.

    kashubians replaced the term Pomeranian in hinter-Pomerania . the kashubians eventually became slavic in language.

    As far as I know the baltic prusi people, be them warmians, samians etc seemed to have emerged in the dark-ages .....maybe a name change from some form of aestian confederation ( aestii)

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    It's interesting to see such a high frequency of I1, but it's even more interesting that essentially none of this is L22+; especially if we're arguing for a Swedish origin for some of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pyromatic View Post
    It's interesting to see such a high frequency of I1, but it's even more interesting that essentially none of this is L22+; especially if we're arguing for a Swedish origin for some of it.
    On the contrary what's interesting is that quite a few of the I1 samples in the south of Italy are L22. I1d-L22 has been found only in Vicenza and La Spezia in the north and Grosseto/Siena in the center, but in many places in the south (Benevento, Lecce, Agrigento, Ragusa/Siracusa). The samples from southern Sicily could be of Vandal origin, since the Normans settled mostly in northern Sicily. Benevento was a Lombard duchy. Lecce's I1d could be either Lombard or Norman.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    On the contrary what's interesting is that quite a few of the I1 samples in the south of Italy are L22. I1d-L22 has been found only in Vicenza and La Spezia in the north and Grosseto/Siena in the center, but in many places in the south (Benevento, Lecce, Agrigento, Ragusa/Siracusa). The samples from southern Sicily could be of Vandal origin, since the Normans settled mostly in northern Sicily. Benevento was a Lombard duchy. Lecce's I1d could be either Lombard or Norman.
    La Spezia (Liguria), Massa (Tuscany) and Grosseto/Siena (Tuscany) were also under a Lombard duchy (Langobardia Maior).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    On the contrary what's interesting is that quite a few of the I1 samples in the south of Italy are L22. I1d-L22 has been found only in Vicenza and La Spezia in the north and Grosseto/Siena in the center, but in many places in the south (Benevento, Lecce, Agrigento, Ragusa/Siracusa). The samples from southern Sicily could be of Vandal origin, since the Normans settled mostly in northern Sicily. Benevento was a Lombard duchy. Lecce's I1d could be either Lombard or Norman.
    Is the sample size really large enough to draw that conclusion? From Table 2, it appears that there were only four I1-L22+ samples found of which three were P109+. Over all, only 16-17% of the I1 noted in Italy is L22+. In Area II, about 14-15% is L22+, and none in Area III is. From the public data at the FTDNA haplogroup I1 project, it appears that about 55% of the Swedish I1 is L22+. It may be that these Italian data are more consistent with a continental origin of its I1.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Wow, Lombards from Sicily; thats impressive
    Ive read that you kept (in some comunes) the Old [Medieval] Gallo-Italic language for the last 1,000 years.

    U-106 i would think is more German (Swabian) Staufer period
    [i edited a bit about the Catania castle later on -post#6]
    R1a could also be Normannic, since R1a is significant in Norway;
    But im not familiar with sub-clades since all studies state the R1a in Sicily is M-17?
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results

    Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy [Boattini 2013 + other studies],
    on the other hand U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;

    My specification: U-152 = Lombards / U-106 = Swabians[Germans] / I1-M253 = Normans [pos. also R1a]
    Nobody1, very often I find your posts interesting, so I respect your suggestions - but here I don"t understand why you could assign so easily a unique SNP marker to restricted tribes of same culture: LOmbards by their history had surely Y-I1+Y-R1a+Y-R1b-U106; Y-R1b-U152 seems to me as an aside SNP among true germanic people (maybe a Teutons-Cimbers accretion? or before that some rare BBs?) - and Norwegian Nordmen had the 3 submentioned SNP as all other genuine germanic tribes: only the respective %s can change in some proportion (U106 is heavy among all-R1b in Western Norway (roughly 66%) - if we speak about late "anglo-french Normands", we could find the same SNPs yet, but mixed with others SNP of celtic and pre-celtic origin -
    if you speak about modern Lombards, and not Longobards, I see as beeing more Celts than Germanics, the
    n yes I agree Y-R1b U152 (of eastern P-celtic and italic "origin") would be normally frequent enough - even bavarians are not supposed to have send too much R1b-U152 with them -
    general remark: the percentages I red here thank to you all are interesting but about small samples; I need more and more!!!
    have a good brain strom evening!


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    if you speak about modern Lombards, and not Longobards, I see as beeing more Celts than Germanics, then yes I agree Y-R1b U152 (of eastern P-celtic and italic "origin") would be normally frequent enough - even bavarians are not supposed to have send too much R1b-U152 with them -
    general remark: the percentages I red here thank to you all are interesting but about small samples; I need more and more!!!
    have a good brain strom evening!
    Yes medieval (modern) Lombards from North Italy; not the Germanic Langobarden of the migration era;
    Its the same misunderstanding as with Maciamo, as i explained in post# 23

    post #23 -
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    No,
    not the Germanic Langobarden from the Migration era;

    This is strictly Medieval, - Lombards as in North Italians from Medieval Lombardy
    [fiefdom of Holy Roman Empire]

    This [Medieval] Region -


    Roger I of Hauteville
    married Adelaide del Vasto and granted
    Lombard [Christians / Latins] settlers {from Medieval Lombardy} to settle in Eastern Sicily


    post# 6 -
    The East was granted to Lombard (Christian / Latin) settlers; hence 7.1% R1b U-152 -Boattini 2013

    post# 8 -
    Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy [Boattini 2013 + other studies],
    on the other hand U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;


    Thats my connection and logic; U-152 = Lombards {from Lombardy

    ---

    The Medieval Lombards were always allies of the Normannic south; from the beginning of their conquest against the Byzantines; - Battle of Montemaggiore / Battle of Olivento

    Ioannes Skylitzes - 11th cen. Byzantine
    Michael was defeated and lost the better part of his army, he shamefully taking refuge in Cannae. Crippled like this he was none the wiser for his wound.....took back into battle his defeated forces together with the Pisidians and Lycaonians who make up the unit of the foederati and fell on the enemy at a place called Horai. Again he was severely defeated by the Franks who had now allied with themselves a considerable host of Italians living around the river Po and in the foothills of the Alps.

    The Lombards of Sicily;

    Prof. Will Seymour Monroe - Spell of Sicily: The Garden of the Mediterranean (1909)
    The Lombards have also retained a degree of their original purity. They accompanied Adelaide of Montferrat, wife of Roger I, to Sicily and colonized at San Fratello, Nicosia, Randazzo, Sperligna, Capizzi, and elsewhere. They are tall, broad-shouldered, and fair, and more enterprising than most of the other inhabitants. Because of their keen monetary sense they are sometimes nicknamed "Sicilian Jews". The Lombard dialect is still spoken among them.

    William Harrison De Puy - The Encyclopædia Britannica: Vol.XXII (1893)
    In Sicily there were many nations all protected by the Sicilian king ; but there was no Sicilian nation.
    Greek, Saracen, Norman, Lombard, and Jew could not be fused into one people; it was the boast of Sicily that each kept his laws and tongue undisturbed. Such a state of things could live on only under an enlightened despotism; the discordant elements could not join to work out really free and national 'institutions.


    William Agnew Paton - Picturesque Sicily (1897)
    The latter curious town, situated high in the mountains, is inhabited by a people who speak a Lombard dialect, which testifies to their descent from the mercenaries who accompanied Roger in his first Sicilian campaign.


    ~1000 years later the Lombards still speak their Gallo-Italic language in Sicily;

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    and Norwegian Nordmen had the 3 submentioned SNP as all other genuine germanic tribes: only the respective %s can change in some proportion (U106 is heavy among all-R1b in Western Norway (roughly 66%) - if we speak about late "anglo-french Normands", we could find the same SNPs yet, but mixed with others SNP of celtic and pre-celtic origin -
    Thats correct, the Normans can also be a source of R1b U-106 across the Island;

    The reason i linked U-106 to the Swabians[Germans] was strictly due to Boattini 2013 and its Catania result;

    Catania = 11.5% R1bU-106 [52 samples] - Boattini 2013


    Catania
    was the main stronghold of the Hohenstaufen in Sicily;
    - main garrison of Henry VI - after the conquest of Markward von Annweiler and Heinrich von Kalden
    - most important Staufer castle of Frederick II (next to Enna - Lombards)

    Liber ad honorem Augusti - conquest of the Normannic Kingdom of Sicily by Henry VI of Hohenstaufen
    http://warfare.atspace.eu/Medieval/L...Augusti_th.htm

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    It amazes me how fast and "easily" Nobody1 can bring various citations to all historical subjects. Do you remember most of this an type off your head, or did you do all this homework before and have a great collection of them?
    Regardless, you have great and informative posts.
    Thanks
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post

    I wrote Swabians[Germans] since Swabians (Svevi) was a synonym for all Germans in Normannic and Papal chronics;
    That's interesting. I could never figure out why all slavic nations know Germans also as Swabi. Although Swabi is derogatory term.

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    Thank you,

    Being very interested in the Historical past and everything associated with it. I read as much as i can on it, and compiled my personal collection; but of course i remember what each topic is about;
    Also thank god for the Internet; many libraries have been digitalised so its really easy now to just scout through them based on topic of interest;

    this is just one example (in German)
    http://www.mgh.de/home/aktuelles/

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    and Norwegian Nordmen had the 3 submentioned SNP as all other genuine germanic tribes: only the respective %s can change in some proportion (U106 is heavy among all-R1b in Western Norway (roughly 66%) - if we speak about late "anglo-french Normands", we could find the same SNPs yet, but mixed with others SNP of celtic and pre-celtic origin
    Yes, the Normans are also a source of R1b U-106 across the Island;

    The reason i associated R1b U-106 with the Swabians[Germans] was strictly due to Boattini 2013 and its Catania result;

    Catania = 11.5% R1b U-106 [52 samples] - Boattini 2013

    Catania was one of the main strongholds of the Hohenstaufen in Sicily
    - most important garrison of Henry VI - after its conquest by Markward von Annweiler and Heinrich von Kalden
    - most important Staufer castle of Frederick II - next to Enna (Lombards)

    Liber ad honorem Augusti
    - conquest of the Normannic Kingdom of Sicily by Henry VI
    http://warfare.atspace.eu/Medieval/L...Augusti_th.htm

    Swabian knight Diepold

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Yes, the Normans are also a source of R1b U-106 across the Island;

    The reason i associated R1b U-106 with the Swabians[Germans] was strictly due to Boattini 2013 and its Catania result;

    Catania = 11.5% R1b U-106 [52 samples] - Boattini 2013

    Catania was one of the main strongholds of the Hohenstaufen in Sicily
    - most important garrison of Henry VI - after its conquest by Markward von Annweiler and Heinrich von Kalden
    - most important Staufer castle of Frederick II - next to Enna (Lombards)

    Liber ad honorem Augusti
    - conquest of the Normannic Kingdom of Sicily by Henry VI
    http://warfare.atspace.eu/Medieval/L...Augusti_th.htm

    Swabian knight Diepold
    you need to correct what you say,seems like youare saying swabians are lombards.
    swabians are not longobards or normans, they would be more U-152 than U-106.

    swabians are alemmani people , speaking alemani, basically people from south west germany - baden, freiburg and a bit of alsace

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    seems like youare saying swabians are lombards. swabians are not longobards or normans, they would be more U-152 than U-106.
    No;
    Not with a single word have i equated the Lombards with the Swabians;
    And its beyond me how you even get that idea;

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    swabians are not longobards or normans, they would be more U-152 than U-106.
    No;
    Even in the South of Germany and Austria; R1b-U106 is the most dominant R1b haplogroup;

    Wirsching et al 2009 - frequency amongst only R1b samples:
    http://www.freidok.uni-freiburg.de/v...hingOnline.pdf

    Freiburg (Breisgau) = 61 R1b samples - p.60 corresponding with p.14
    34.4% U106
    22.9% U152
    42.6% M343*

    Niederstätter et al 2012 - frequency amongst all samples:
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e.0041885.s013

    East Tyrol = 270 samples (total study) - Table S7
    18.8% U106
    12.5% U152


    I suppose that clearly signals their dominant (also Linguistic & Historical attested) Germanic roots; over the before proto-Keltic/Keltic {Urnfield / Hallstatt / LaTene} R1b-U152 lineage (which is however still significant in those regions);

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    swabians are alemmani people , speaking alemani, basically people from south west germany - baden, freiburg and a bit of alsace
    You forgot all of German Switzerland - Württemberg - Altschwaben Bavaria (Augsburg - Allgäu) - Vinschgau (South Tyrol) and Vorarlberg (Bundesland Österreich)

    ---

    Strictly concerning Sicily
    Of course, it is not a rule; its just a safe assumption on my part to connect the
    Lombards with U152, Normans with I1-M253 (pos. also R1a), Swabians with U106 (post #39);
    Needless to say those Hg's can also be assigned to one or the other group as well;
    But in total thats my specification based on the specification of geography (historical settlements) given within the studies;

    DiGaetano et al 2009 - West Sicily (I1-M253 = 8.2%) & Sicily total (R1a = 5.5%)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...report=classic

    Boattini et al 2013 - Catania specific (U106 = 11.5%) & Sicily total (U152 = 7.1%)
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    No;
    Not with a single word have i equated the Lombards with the Swabians;
    And its beyond me how you even get that idea;



    No;
    Even in the South of Germany and Austria; R1b-U106 is the most dominant R1b haplogroup;

    Wirsching et al 2009 - frequency amongst only R1b samples:
    http://www.freidok.uni-freiburg.de/v...hingOnline.pdf

    Freiburg (Breisgau) = 61 R1b samples - p.60 corresponding with p.14
    34.4% U106
    22.9% U152
    42.6% M343*

    Niederstätter et al 2012 - frequency amongst all samples:
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e.0041885.s013

    East Tyrol = 270 samples (total study) - Table S7
    18.8% U106
    12.5% U152


    I suppose that clearly signals their dominant (also Linguistic & Historical attested) Germanic roots; over the before proto-Keltic/Keltic {Urnfield / Hallstatt / LaTene} R1b-U152 lineage (which is however still significant in those regions);



    You forgot all of German Switzerland - Württemberg - Altschwaben Bavaria (Augsburg - Allgäu) - Vinschgau (South Tyrol) and Vorarlberg (Bundesland Österreich)

    ---

    Strictly concerning Sicily
    Of course, it is not a rule; its just a safe assumption on my part to connect the
    Lombards with U152, Normans with I1-M253 (pos. also the R1a), Swabians with U106
    Needless to say those Hg's can also be assigned to one or the other group as well;
    But in total thats my specification based on the specification of geography (historical settlements) given within the studies;

    DiGaetano et al 2009 - West Sicily (I1-M253 = 8.2%) & Sicily total (R1a = 5.5%)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...report=classic

    Boattini et al 2013 - Catania specific (U106 = 11.5%) & Sicily total (U152 = 7.1%)
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441
    ok

    But isn't the terminology of lombard slightly inaccurate?, ......lombard( longobard) to me would be italian based only, and the others referred to as Suebi. The longobards where part of the "Suebi confederation".....unlike the burgundians who where part of the "Vandili confederation".
    The lombards have now been found to be ancient west-germanic than east-germanic.

    Where did you assume than I-M253 is Norman?
    There is I-M253 in NEI , ..........might be Norman prisoners after the failed invasion by Normans of Byzantine Albania......stopped by the venetian fleet.

    IIRC Normans originated from norwegian vikings who once conquering Normandy changed their linguistic and culture identity to be accepted by the populace.



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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    But isn't the terminology of lombard slightly inaccurate?, ......lombard( longobard) to me would be italian based only, and the others referred to as Suebi.
    Once again;

    Lombards = Medieval North Italians from Lombardy;
    - post #23 & post #36 -

    Langobarden/Langobards = Germanic migration era -
    settling within Gallia Cisalpina / later Lombardy;

    Swabians = Medieval Germans from the Duchy of Swabia;
    pos. from the Germanic Suebi; def. from the Germanic Alamanni;


    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Where did you assume than I-M253 is Norman?
    There is I-M253 in NEI , ..........might be Norman prisoners after the failed invasion by Normans of Byzantine Albania......stopped by the venetian fleet.
    My specification of the lineages U152 / U106 / I1-M253
    was all strictly concerning Sicily (the Island of Sicily); nothing else;

    ---

    I1-M253 in NE Italy is of course of a diff. source; most prob. of the Germanic Langobarden;

    Langobarden place names in Northern Italy (mostly Po Valley)
    http://www.terraorobica.net/Articoli...Longobarde.htm

    Fara = a Langobarden settlement from German fahren [Bajuwaren - faramanni]



    2 Farra d’Isonzo (GO) / 3 Farella (UD) / 4 Faris (UD) / 5 Farla (UD) / 6 Ca’ Fara (UD) / 7 Fara (PN) / 8 Farra d’Alpago (BL)
    9 Farra di Mel (BL) / 10 Farénzena (BL) / 11 Farra di Feltre (BL) / 12 Fara di Cavolano (PN) / 13 Fara di Castel Roganzuolo (TV)
    14 Farra di Soligo (TV) / 15 Farra di Valdobiàdene (TV) / 16 Farra di Paderno del Grappa (TV) / 17 Farronati (VI) / 18 Fara Vicentino (VI)
    19 Fara di Montebello Vicentino (VI)


    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    The longobards where part of the "Suebi confederation".....unlike the burgundians who where part of the "Vandili confederation".
    The lombards have now been found to be ancient west-germanic than east-germanic.
    We have to take this discussion to the thread
    Ancient DNA studies > Hundreds of ancient Lombards to be autosomally tested

    I believe that the Langobarden were of the Vandalic stock; all sources and quotes in the other thread;

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    IIRC Normans originated from norwegian vikings who once conquering Normandy changed their linguistic and culture identity to be accepted by the populace.
    Norsemen in Normandy

    Geoffrey of Malaterra - Book I
    The land of Normandy is in Gaul, but it was not always called Normandy. Once it, and everything that appertained to it, was a part of the royal fisc of the King of the Franks, which was called by the general name of Francia; up to the time when a very brave leader called Rollo sailed boldly from Norway with his fleet to the Christian coast, accompanied by a strong force of soldiers. He ravaged Frisia and other maritime areas to the west, and finally reached the port where the River Seine flows into the sea. His great fleet sailed up this river into the more inland areas of Francia, and seeing how fertile this area was, more so than the other regions which they had crossed, he conceived a desire to seize it and take it for his own. For it is a land with rivers full of fish and woods full of wild animals, fertile and suitable for corn and other crops, with rich meadows to feed cattle, and thus very likely to excite the greedy. For this reason they landed on each bank and began to make the inhabitants of the province subject to his rule.

    However, the king who was at that time ruling over Francia, I think it was Louis II was at first furious when he learnt that enemies had invaded the frontiers of his empire. He raised an army, marched against the enemy and appointed a duke to expel them from his lands. But then he realised that this could not be done without great casualties among his men. Fearing the uncertain events of war and wishing to spare bloodshed among his followers, he took counsel and concluded a peace treaty.
    Accepting the service which they offered to him, he granted them the bulk of the land which they had invaded as a benefice.
    The land which had been granted to them stretched [westwards] from the pagus of Ponthieu on its eastern border, and was next to the English Channel, which lay between it and Britain on its northern side and bounded its western extent also. On its south west frontier there was the pagus of Maine, and then the border went as far as Chartres, from Chartres it went to Abbeville and Beauvais, up to Ponthieu [once again].


    Duke Rollo received this land outlined above from the King of the Franks as a hereditary fief; he then distributed it among his followers depending on how close he was to them, reserving the most valuable land for his own use.

    There was a certain knight of quite distinguished family who possessed this village [Hauteville] by hereditary right from his ancestors. He was called Tancred, and he married a wife called Moriella, who was notable both for her birth and her good character, and as the years went by he received from her in lawful manner five sons, who were in the future to become counts: namely William, known as 'the Iron Arm', Drogo, Humphrey, Geoffrey and Serlo.

    ---

    Normans in Southern Italy

    John Bagnell Bury - The Cambridge Medieval History - Vol.V (1926)
    The establishment of the Normans at Aversa was followed by a considerable influx of their compatriots, a tendency always warmly encouraged by Rainulf. The new arrivals were cordially received at his court, and very soon Aversa became the centre where all adventurers coming from Normandy could forgather; it was a kind of market where those in need of soldiers could engage them.

    Among the adventurers who came thither between 1034 and 1087 were the sons of a petty Norman noble, Tancred de Hauteville, whose name was to receive enduring renown from the exploits of his descendants. Tancred, who held a fief of ten men-at-arms at Hauteville-la-Guicharde near Coutances, was not rich enough to bestow an inheritance on all his numerous children.

    By his first wife, Muriella, he had five sons, William, Drogo, Humphrey, Geoffrey, and Sarlo; by his second, Fressenda, he had Robert Guiscard, Manger, William, Auvrai, Tancred, Humbert, and Roger, to say nothing of daughters.


    The two eldest sons, William and Drogo, realising the modest future which awaited them if they remained under the paternal roof, resolved to seek their fortunes abroad, and started for Aversa.

    ---

    William Iron Arm of Hauteville was the first Count of Apulia;

    Robert Guiscard of Hauteville was the first Duke of Apulia and his brother Roger Bosso of Hauteville was the first count of Sicily;

    Roger II of Hauteville was the first King of Sicily;

    There is a legend that Tancred was descendant of Ogier the Dane;
    Last edited by Nobody1; 17-06-13 at 06:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Once again;

    Lombards = Medieval North Italians from Lombardy;
    - post #23 & post #36 -

    Langobarden/Langobards = Germanic migration era -
    settling within Gallia Cisalpina / later Lombardy;

    Swabians = Medieval Germans from the Duchy of Swabia;
    pos. from the Germanic Suebi; def. from the Germanic Alamanni;




    My specification of the lineages U152 / U106 / I1-M253
    was all strictly concerning Sicily (the Island of Sicily); nothing else;

    ---

    I1-M253 in NE Italy is of course of a diff. source; most prob. of the Germanic Langobarden;

    Langobarden place names in Northern Italy (mostly Po Valley)
    http://www.terraorobica.net/Articoli...Longobarde.htm

    Fara = a Langobarden settlement from German fahren [Bajuwaren - faramanni]



    2 Farra d’Isonzo (GO) / 3 Farella (UD) / 4 Faris (UD) / 5 Farla (UD) / 6 Ca’ Fara (UD) / 7 Fara (PN) / 8 Farra d’Alpago (BL)
    9 Farra di Mel (BL) / 10 Farénzena (BL) / 11 Farra di Feltre (BL) / 12 Fara di Cavolano (PN) / 13 Fara di Castel Roganzuolo (TV)
    14 Farra di Soligo (TV) / 15 Farra di Valdobiàdene (TV) / 16 Farra di Paderno del Grappa (TV) / 17 Farronati (VI) / 18 Fara Vicentino (VI)
    19 Fara di Montebello Vicentino (VI)




    We have to take this discussion to the thread
    Ancient DNA studies > Hundreds of ancient Lombards to be autosomally tested

    I believe that the Langobarden were of the Vandalic stock; all sources and quotes in the other thread;
    Farre ( fare ) means the making/creation .............same meaning as today

    Link states, they entered via the julian mountains , crossed the isonzo river and set up a capital in cividale ( which is north of Udine) in the old lands of the venetics.

    they took control ( fare ) of the towns as per your map link.

    From the combined testimony of Strabo (AD 20) and Tacitus (AD 117), the Lombards dwelt near the mouth of the Elbe shortly after the beginning of the Christian era, next to the Chauci.[17] Strabo states that the Lombards dwelt on both sides of the Elbe.[19] He treats them as a branch of the Suebi, and states that


    Tacitus also counted the Lombards as a remote and aggressive Suebian tribe,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Geoffrey of Malaterra - Book I
    The land of Normandy is in Gaul, but it was not always called Normandy. Once it, and everything that appertained to it, was a part of the royal fisc of the King of the Franks, which was called by the general name of Francia; up to the time when a very brave leader called Rollo sailed boldly from Norway with his fleet to the Christian coast, accompanied by a strong force of soldiers. He ravaged Frisia and other maritime areas to the west, and finally reached the port where the River Seine flows into the sea. His great fleet sailed up this river into the more inland areas of Francia, and seeing how fertile this area was, more so than the other regions which they had crossed, he conceived a desire to seize it and take it for his own. For it is a land with rivers full of fish and woods full of wild animals, fertile and suitable for corn and other crops, with rich meadows to feed cattle, and thus very likely to excite the greedy. For this reason they landed on each bank and began to make the inhabitants of the province subject to his rule.

    However, the king who was at that time ruling over Francia, I think it was Louis II was at first furious when he learnt that enemies had invaded the frontiers of his empire. He raised an army, marched against the enemy and appointed a duke to expel them from his lands. But then he realised that this could not be done without great casualties among his men. Fearing the uncertain events of war and wishing to spare bloodshed among his followers, he took counsel and concluded a peace treaty.
    Accepting the service which they offered to him, he granted them the bulk of the land which they had invaded as a benefice.
    The land which had been granted to them stretched [westwards] from thepagus of Ponthieu on its eastern border, and was next to the English Channel, which lay between it and Britain on its northern side and bounded its western extent also. On its south west frontier there was the pagus of Maine, and then the border went as far as Chartres, from Chartres it went to Abbeville and Beauvais, up to Ponthieu [once again].


    Duke Rollo received this land outlined above from the King of the Franks as a hereditary fief; he then distributed it among his followers depending on how close he was to them, reserving the most valuable land for his own use.

    There was a certain knight of quite distinguished family who possessed this village [Hauteville] by hereditary right from his ancestors. He was called Tancred, and he married a wife called Moriella, who was notable both for her birth and her good character, and as the years went by he received from her in lawful manner five sons, who were in the future to become counts: namely William, known as 'the Iron Arm', Drogo, Humphrey, Geoffrey and Serlo.

    ---

    John Bagnell Bury - The Cambridge Medieval History - Vol.V (1926)
    The establishment of the Normans at Aversa was followed by a considerable influx of their compatriots, a tendency always warmly encouraged by Rainulf. The new arrivals were cordially received at his court, and very soon Aversa became the centre where all adventurers coming from Normandy could forgather; it was a kind of market where those in need of soldiers could engage them.

    Among the adventurers who came thither between 1034 and 1087 were the sons of a petty Norman noble, Tancred de Hauteville, whose name was to receive enduring renown from the exploits of his descendants. Tancred, who held a fief of ten men-at-arms at Hauteville-la-Guicharde near Coutances, was not rich enough to bestow an inheritance on all his numerous children.

    By his first wife, Muriella, he had five sons, William, Drogo, Humphrey, Geoffrey, and Sarlo; by his second, Fressenda, he had Robert Guiscard, Manger, William, Auvrai, Tancred, Humbert, and Roger, to say nothing of daughters.


    The two eldest sons, William and Drogo, realising the modest future which awaited them if they remained under the paternal roof, resolved to seek their fortunes abroad, and started for Aversa.

    ---

    William Iron Arm of Hauteville was the first Count of Apulia;

    Robert Guiscard of Hauteville was the first Duke of Apulia and his brother Roger Bosso of Hauteville was the first count of Sicily;

    Roger II of Hauteville was the first King of Sicily;

    There is a legend that Tancred was descendant of Ogier the Dane;
    whats this about? ...........i refer to origins of normans prior to invasion of gallic lands

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    Thanks for these informative posts Nobody1. I'm interested to hear your explanation of the earlier Kings of Denmark circa 700 A.D. That seems to be a confusing era for some reason. (Might be a different thread however).

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    Thanks for these informative posts Nobody1. I'm interested to hear your explanation of the earlier Kings of Denmark circa 700 A.D. That seems to be a confusing era for some reason. (Might be a different thread however).
    did you use the tery robb link which i presented which has a spot to place you ID ( if you did a 67 marker check ) and it will work out your subclade?

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