Distribution of I1 in Italy (Boattini et al.)

and Norwegian Nordmen had the 3 submentioned SNP as all other genuine germanic tribes: only the respective %s can change in some proportion (U106 is heavy among all-R1b in Western Norway (roughly 66%) - if we speak about late "anglo-french Normands", we could find the same SNPs yet, but mixed with others SNP of celtic and pre-celtic origin

Yes, the Normans are also a source of R1b U-106 across the Island;

The reason i associated R1b U-106 with the Swabians[Germans] was strictly due to Boattini 2013 and its Catania result;

Catania = 11.5% R1b U-106 [52 samples] - Boattini 2013

Catania was one of the main strongholds of the Hohenstaufen in Sicily
- most important garrison of Henry VI - after its conquest by Markward von Annweiler and Heinrich von Kalden
- most important Staufer castle of Frederick II - next to Enna (Lombards)

Liber ad honorem Augusti
- conquest of the Normannic Kingdom of Sicily by Henry VI
http://warfare.atspace.eu/Medieval/Liber_ad_honorem_Augusti_th.htm

Swabian knight Diepold
220px-Diepold_von_Schweinspeunt.jpg
 
Yes, the Normans are also a source of R1b U-106 across the Island;

The reason i associated R1b U-106 with the Swabians[Germans] was strictly due to Boattini 2013 and its Catania result;

Catania = 11.5% R1b U-106 [52 samples] - Boattini 2013

Catania was one of the main strongholds of the Hohenstaufen in Sicily
- most important garrison of Henry VI - after its conquest by Markward von Annweiler and Heinrich von Kalden
- most important Staufer castle of Frederick II - next to Enna (Lombards)

Liber ad honorem Augusti
- conquest of the Normannic Kingdom of Sicily by Henry VI
http://warfare.atspace.eu/Medieval/Liber_ad_honorem_Augusti_th.htm

Swabian knight Diepold
220px-Diepold_von_Schweinspeunt.jpg

you need to correct what you say,seems like youare saying swabians are lombards.
swabians are not longobards or normans, they would be more U-152 than U-106.

swabians are alemmani people , speaking alemani, basically people from south west germany - baden, freiburg and a bit of alsace
 
seems like youare saying swabians are lombards. swabians are not longobards or normans, they would be more U-152 than U-106.

No;
Not with a single word have i equated the Lombards with the Swabians;
And its beyond me how you even get that idea;

swabians are not longobards or normans, they would be more U-152 than U-106.

No;
Even in the South of Germany and Austria; R1b-U106 is the most dominant R1b haplogroup;

Wirsching et al 2009 - frequency amongst only R1b samples:
http://www.freidok.uni-freiburg.de/volltexte/7512/pdf/DissMaximilianWilhelmWirschingOnline.pdf

Freiburg (Breisgau) = 61 R1b samples - p.60 corresponding with p.14
34.4% U106
22.9% U152
42.6% M343*

Niederstätter et al 2012 - frequency amongst all samples:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0041885#pone.0041885.s013

East Tyrol = 270 samples (total study) - Table S7
18.8% U106
12.5% U152


I suppose that clearly signals their dominant (also Linguistic & Historical attested) Germanic roots; over the before proto-Keltic/Keltic {Urnfield / Hallstatt / LaTene} R1b-U152 lineage (which is however still significant in those regions);

swabians are alemmani people , speaking alemani, basically people from south west germany - baden, freiburg and a bit of alsace

You forgot all of German Switzerland - Württemberg - Altschwaben Bavaria (Augsburg - Allgäu) - Vinschgau (South Tyrol) and Vorarlberg (Bundesland Österreich)

---

Strictly concerning Sicily
Of course, it is not a rule; its just a safe assumption on my part to connect the
Lombards with U152, Normans with I1-M253 (pos. also R1a), Swabians with U106 (post #39);
Needless to say those Hg's can also be assigned to one or the other group as well;
But in total thats my specification based on the specification of geography (historical settlements) given within the studies;

DiGaetano et al 2009 - West Sicily (I1-M253 = 8.2%) & Sicily total (R1a = 5.5%)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/?report=classic

Boattini et al 2013 - Catania specific (U106 = 11.5%) & Sicily total (U152 = 7.1%)
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0065441
 
No;
Not with a single word have i equated the Lombards with the Swabians;
And its beyond me how you even get that idea;



No;
Even in the South of Germany and Austria; R1b-U106 is the most dominant R1b haplogroup;

Wirsching et al 2009 - frequency amongst only R1b samples:
http://www.freidok.uni-freiburg.de/volltexte/7512/pdf/DissMaximilianWilhelmWirschingOnline.pdf

Freiburg (Breisgau) = 61 R1b samples - p.60 corresponding with p.14
34.4% U106
22.9% U152
42.6% M343*

Niederstätter et al 2012 - frequency amongst all samples:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0041885#pone.0041885.s013

East Tyrol = 270 samples (total study) - Table S7
18.8% U106
12.5% U152


I suppose that clearly signals their dominant (also Linguistic & Historical attested) Germanic roots; over the before proto-Keltic/Keltic {Urnfield / Hallstatt / LaTene} R1b-U152 lineage (which is however still significant in those regions);



You forgot all of German Switzerland - Württemberg - Altschwaben Bavaria (Augsburg - Allgäu) - Vinschgau (South Tyrol) and Vorarlberg (Bundesland Österreich)

---

Strictly concerning Sicily
Of course, it is not a rule; its just a safe assumption on my part to connect the
Lombards with U152, Normans with I1-M253 (pos. also the R1a), Swabians with U106
Needless to say those Hg's can also be assigned to one or the other group as well;
But in total thats my specification based on the specification of geography (historical settlements) given within the studies;

DiGaetano et al 2009 - West Sicily (I1-M253 = 8.2%) & Sicily total (R1a = 5.5%)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/?report=classic

Boattini et al 2013 - Catania specific (U106 = 11.5%) & Sicily total (U152 = 7.1%)
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0065441

ok

But isn't the terminology of lombard slightly inaccurate?, ......lombard( longobard) to me would be italian based only, and the others referred to as Suebi. The longobards where part of the "Suebi confederation".....unlike the burgundians who where part of the "Vandili confederation".
The lombards have now been found to be ancient west-germanic than east-germanic.

Where did you assume than I-M253 is Norman?
There is I-M253 in NEI , ..........might be Norman prisoners after the failed invasion by Normans of Byzantine Albania......stopped by the venetian fleet.

IIRC Normans originated from norwegian vikings who once conquering Normandy changed their linguistic and culture identity to be accepted by the populace.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
 
But isn't the terminology of lombard slightly inaccurate?, ......lombard( longobard) to me would be italian based only, and the others referred to as Suebi.

Once again;

Lombards = Medieval North Italians from Lombardy;
- post #23 & post #36 -

Langobarden/Langobards = Germanic migration era -
settling within Gallia Cisalpina / later Lombardy;

Swabians = Medieval Germans from the Duchy of Swabia;
pos. from the Germanic Suebi; def. from the Germanic Alamanni;


Where did you assume than I-M253 is Norman?
There is I-M253 in NEI , ..........might be Norman prisoners after the failed invasion by Normans of Byzantine Albania......stopped by the venetian fleet.

My specification of the lineages U152 / U106 / I1-M253
was all strictly concerning Sicily (the Island of Sicily); nothing else;

---

I1-M253 in NE Italy is of course of a diff. source; most prob. of the Germanic Langobarden;

Langobarden place names in Northern Italy (mostly Po Valley)
http://www.terraorobica.net/Articoli/Storia/Fare Longobarde.htm

Fara = a Langobarden settlement from German fahren [Bajuwaren - faramanni]
Fara01.jpg



2 Farra d’Isonzo (GO) / 3 Farella (UD) / 4 Faris (UD) / 5 Farla (UD) / 6 Ca’ Fara (UD) / 7 Fara (PN) / 8 Farra d’Alpago (BL)
9 Farra di Mel (BL) / 10 Farénzena (BL) / 11 Farra di Feltre (BL) / 12 Fara di Cavolano (PN) / 13 Fara di Castel Roganzuolo (TV)
14 Farra di Soligo (TV) / 15 Farra di Valdobiàdene (TV) / 16 Farra di Paderno del Grappa (TV) / 17 Farronati (VI) / 18 Fara Vicentino (VI)
19 Fara di Montebello Vicentino (VI)


The longobards where part of the "Suebi confederation".....unlike the burgundians who where part of the "Vandili confederation".
The lombards have now been found to be ancient west-germanic than east-germanic.

We have to take this discussion to the thread
Ancient DNA studies > Hundreds of ancient Lombards to be autosomally tested

I believe that the Langobarden were of the Vandalic stock; all sources and quotes in the other thread;
 
IIRC Normans originated from norwegian vikings who once conquering Normandy changed their linguistic and culture identity to be accepted by the populace.

Norsemen in Normandy

Geoffrey of Malaterra - Book I
The land of Normandy is in Gaul, but it was not always called Normandy. Once it, and everything that appertained to it, was a part of the royal fisc of the King of the Franks, which was called by the general name of Francia; up to the time when a very brave leader called Rollo sailed boldly from Norway with his fleet to the Christian coast, accompanied by a strong force of soldiers. He ravaged Frisia and other maritime areas to the west, and finally reached the port where the River Seine flows into the sea. His great fleet sailed up this river into the more inland areas of Francia, and seeing how fertile this area was, more so than the other regions which they had crossed, he conceived a desire to seize it and take it for his own. For it is a land with rivers full of fish and woods full of wild animals, fertile and suitable for corn and other crops, with rich meadows to feed cattle, and thus very likely to excite the greedy. For this reason they landed on each bank and began to make the inhabitants of the province subject to his rule.

However, the king who was at that time ruling over Francia, I think it was Louis II was at first furious when he learnt that enemies had invaded the frontiers of his empire. He raised an army, marched against the enemy and appointed a duke to expel them from his lands. But then he realised that this could not be done without great casualties among his men. Fearing the uncertain events of war and wishing to spare bloodshed among his followers, he took counsel and concluded a peace treaty.
Accepting the service which they offered to him, he granted them the bulk of the land which they had invaded as a benefice.
The land which had been granted to them stretched [westwards] from the pagus of Ponthieu on its eastern border, and was next to the English Channel, which lay between it and Britain on its northern side and bounded its western extent also. On its south west frontier there was the pagus of Maine, and then the border went as far as Chartres, from Chartres it went to Abbeville and Beauvais, up to Ponthieu [once again].


Duke Rollo received this land outlined above from the King of the Franks as a hereditary fief; he then distributed it among his followers depending on how close he was to them, reserving the most valuable land for his own use.

There was a certain knight of quite distinguished family who possessed this village [Hauteville] by hereditary right from his ancestors. He was called Tancred, and he married a wife called Moriella, who was notable both for her birth and her good character, and as the years went by he received from her in lawful manner five sons, who were in the future to become counts: namely William, known as 'the Iron Arm', Drogo, Humphrey, Geoffrey and Serlo.

---

Normans in Southern Italy

John Bagnell Bury - The Cambridge Medieval History - Vol.V (1926)
The establishment of the Normans at Aversa was followed by a considerable influx of their compatriots, a tendency always warmly encouraged by Rainulf. The new arrivals were cordially received at his court, and very soon Aversa became the centre where all adventurers coming from Normandy could forgather; it was a kind of market where those in need of soldiers could engage them.

Among the adventurers who came thither between 1034 and 1087 were the sons of a petty Norman noble, Tancred de Hauteville, whose name was to receive enduring renown from the exploits of his descendants. Tancred, who held a fief of ten men-at-arms at Hauteville-la-Guicharde near Coutances, was not rich enough to bestow an inheritance on all his numerous children.

By his first wife, Muriella, he had five sons, William, Drogo, Humphrey, Geoffrey, and Sarlo; by his second, Fressenda, he had Robert Guiscard, Manger, William, Auvrai, Tancred, Humbert, and Roger, to say nothing of daughters.


The two eldest sons, William and Drogo, realising the modest future which awaited them if they remained under the paternal roof, resolved to seek their fortunes abroad, and started for Aversa.

---

William Iron Arm of Hauteville was the first Count of Apulia;

Robert Guiscard of Hauteville was the first Duke of Apulia and his brother Roger Bosso of Hauteville was the first count of Sicily;

Roger II of Hauteville was the first King of Sicily;

There is a legend that Tancred was descendant of Ogier the Dane;
 
Last edited:
Once again;

Lombards = Medieval North Italians from Lombardy;
- post #23 & post #36 -

Langobarden/Langobards = Germanic migration era -
settling within Gallia Cisalpina / later Lombardy;

Swabians = Medieval Germans from the Duchy of Swabia;
pos. from the Germanic Suebi; def. from the Germanic Alamanni;




My specification of the lineages U152 / U106 / I1-M253
was all strictly concerning Sicily (the Island of Sicily); nothing else;

---

I1-M253 in NE Italy is of course of a diff. source; most prob. of the Germanic Langobarden;

Langobarden place names in Northern Italy (mostly Po Valley)
http://www.terraorobica.net/Articoli/Storia/Fare Longobarde.htm

Fara = a Langobarden settlement from German fahren [Bajuwaren - faramanni]
Fara01.jpg



2 Farra d’Isonzo (GO) / 3 Farella (UD) / 4 Faris (UD) / 5 Farla (UD) / 6 Ca’ Fara (UD) / 7 Fara (PN) / 8 Farra d’Alpago (BL)
9 Farra di Mel (BL) / 10 Farénzena (BL) / 11 Farra di Feltre (BL) / 12 Fara di Cavolano (PN) / 13 Fara di Castel Roganzuolo (TV)
14 Farra di Soligo (TV) / 15 Farra di Valdobiàdene (TV) / 16 Farra di Paderno del Grappa (TV) / 17 Farronati (VI) / 18 Fara Vicentino (VI)
19 Fara di Montebello Vicentino (VI)




We have to take this discussion to the thread
Ancient DNA studies > Hundreds of ancient Lombards to be autosomally tested

I believe that the Langobarden were of the Vandalic stock; all sources and quotes in the other thread;

Farre ( fare ) means the making/creation .............same meaning as today

Link states, they entered via the julian mountains , crossed the isonzo river and set up a capital in cividale ( which is north of Udine) in the old lands of the venetics.

they took control ( fare ) of the towns as per your map link.

From the combined testimony of Strabo (AD 20) and Tacitus (AD 117), the Lombards dwelt near the mouth of the Elbe shortly after the beginning of the Christian era, next to the Chauci.[17] Strabo states that the Lombards dwelt on both sides of the Elbe.[19] He treats them as a branch of the Suebi, and states that


Tacitus also counted the Lombards as a remote and aggressive Suebian tribe,
 
Geoffrey of Malaterra - Book I
The land of Normandy is in Gaul, but it was not always called Normandy. Once it, and everything that appertained to it, was a part of the royal fisc of the King of the Franks, which was called by the general name of Francia; up to the time when a very brave leader called Rollo sailed boldly from Norway with his fleet to the Christian coast, accompanied by a strong force of soldiers. He ravaged Frisia and other maritime areas to the west, and finally reached the port where the River Seine flows into the sea. His great fleet sailed up this river into the more inland areas of Francia, and seeing how fertile this area was, more so than the other regions which they had crossed, he conceived a desire to seize it and take it for his own. For it is a land with rivers full of fish and woods full of wild animals, fertile and suitable for corn and other crops, with rich meadows to feed cattle, and thus very likely to excite the greedy. For this reason they landed on each bank and began to make the inhabitants of the province subject to his rule.

However, the king who was at that time ruling over Francia, I think it was Louis II was at first furious when he learnt that enemies had invaded the frontiers of his empire. He raised an army, marched against the enemy and appointed a duke to expel them from his lands. But then he realised that this could not be done without great casualties among his men. Fearing the uncertain events of war and wishing to spare bloodshed among his followers, he took counsel and concluded a peace treaty.
Accepting the service which they offered to him, he granted them the bulk of the land which they had invaded as a benefice.
The land which had been granted to them stretched [westwards] from thepagus of Ponthieu on its eastern border, and was next to the English Channel, which lay between it and Britain on its northern side and bounded its western extent also. On its south west frontier there was the pagus of Maine, and then the border went as far as Chartres, from Chartres it went to Abbeville and Beauvais, up to Ponthieu [once again].


Duke Rollo received this land outlined above from the King of the Franks as a hereditary fief; he then distributed it among his followers depending on how close he was to them, reserving the most valuable land for his own use.

There was a certain knight of quite distinguished family who possessed this village [Hauteville] by hereditary right from his ancestors. He was called Tancred, and he married a wife called Moriella, who was notable both for her birth and her good character, and as the years went by he received from her in lawful manner five sons, who were in the future to become counts: namely William, known as 'the Iron Arm', Drogo, Humphrey, Geoffrey and Serlo.

---

John Bagnell Bury - The Cambridge Medieval History - Vol.V (1926)
The establishment of the Normans at Aversa was followed by a considerable influx of their compatriots, a tendency always warmly encouraged by Rainulf. The new arrivals were cordially received at his court, and very soon Aversa became the centre where all adventurers coming from Normandy could forgather; it was a kind of market where those in need of soldiers could engage them.

Among the adventurers who came thither between 1034 and 1087 were the sons of a petty Norman noble, Tancred de Hauteville, whose name was to receive enduring renown from the exploits of his descendants. Tancred, who held a fief of ten men-at-arms at Hauteville-la-Guicharde near Coutances, was not rich enough to bestow an inheritance on all his numerous children.

By his first wife, Muriella, he had five sons, William, Drogo, Humphrey, Geoffrey, and Sarlo; by his second, Fressenda, he had Robert Guiscard, Manger, William, Auvrai, Tancred, Humbert, and Roger, to say nothing of daughters.


The two eldest sons, William and Drogo, realising the modest future which awaited them if they remained under the paternal roof, resolved to seek their fortunes abroad, and started for Aversa.

---

William Iron Arm of Hauteville was the first Count of Apulia;

Robert Guiscard of Hauteville was the first Duke of Apulia and his brother Roger Bosso of Hauteville was the first count of Sicily;

Roger II of Hauteville was the first King of Sicily;

There is a legend that Tancred was descendant of Ogier the Dane;

whats this about? ...........i refer to origins of normans prior to invasion of gallic lands
 
Thanks for these informative posts Nobody1. I'm interested to hear your explanation of the earlier Kings of Denmark circa 700 A.D. That seems to be a confusing era for some reason. (Might be a different thread however).
 
Thanks for these informative posts Nobody1. I'm interested to hear your explanation of the earlier Kings of Denmark circa 700 A.D. That seems to be a confusing era for some reason. (Might be a different thread however).

did you use the tery robb link which i presented which has a spot to place you ID ( if you did a 67 marker check ) and it will work out your subclade?
 
Thanks for these informative posts Nobody1. I'm interested to hear your explanation of the earlier Kings of Denmark circa 700 A.D. That seems to be a confusing era for some reason. (Might be a different thread however).
Did you hear about Dark Ages? :)
Not many could write, and even fewer papers that was written survived.

It went like this: Poverty, cold climate, low population, lack of food, poverty, little ice age, black death, decline, poverty, failed corps, expensive paper, expensive education, poverty, ...... you'd better pray for global warming. :)) Ice age is disaster, even the little one.
 
Did you hear about Dark Ages? :)
Not many could write, and even fewer papers that was written survived.

It went like this: Poverty, cold climate, low population, lack of food, poverty, little ice age, black death, decline, poverty, failed corps, expensive paper, expensive education, poverty, ...... you'd better pray for global warming. :)) Ice age is disaster, even the little one.

True, true.

But what I was specifically referring to here is what seems like a subtle avoidance from the rest of "Dark Age" Europe to recognize the Norse Kings-- aka Sea-Kings. I recently watched a history professor speak (from Tulane University here in the U.S. I think-- will site name and exact video later) and he seemed to put the Viking/Norse leaders in a seperate catagory... even stated that they as a people were searching for a "real" king. I must admit I find this difficult to accept.
 
True, true.

But what I was specifically referring to here is what seems like a subtle avoidance from the rest of "Dark Age" Europe to recognize the Norse Kings-- aka Sea-Kings. I recently watched a history professor speak (from Tulane University here in the U.S. I think-- will site name and exact video later) and he seemed to put the Viking/Norse leaders in a seperate catagory... even stated that they as a people were searching for a "real" king. I must admit I find this difficult to accept.
I feel the same, because there is so little information that survived till today. There is too much speculation on some historians part.
Probably at this moment we know more from excavation than from surviving documents.
Damn you dark ages!
 
The other surprise were the 10.5% in Bologna.

Not a suprise.

Bologna was occupied by Lombards, in a period in which its population was at the minimum level and all lived inside the small difensive walls (the legend says that the guardians on the defensive walls could speak each other from opposite points).

The Lombards settled in eastern part of the town; the western part was so spoiled to be named "civitas rupta".

Some suggests that the difference between dialect spoken in the eastern and the western part of the town underlined by Dante in the "De Vulgari Eloquentia" is due to the predominant presence of Lomabards in the eastern part.
 
The Boii would have settled Bologna and given it their name having arrived from the Germany-Czech area, they probably had a form of R1b OTHER than u152.
 
Wow, Lombards from Sicily; thats impressive
Ive read that you kept (in some comunes) the Old [Medieval] Gallo-Italic language for the last 1,000 years.

U-106 i would think is more German (Swabian) Staufer period
[i edited a bit about the Catania castle later on -post#6]
R1a could also be Normannic, since R1a is significant in Norway;
But im not familiar with sub-clades since all studies state the R1a in Sicily is M-17?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results

Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy [Boattini 2013 + other studies],
on the other hand U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;

My specification: U-152 = Lombards / U-106 = Swabians[Germans] / I1-M253 = Normans [pos. also R1a]

in western Norway, Y-R1b-U106 is significant (and even; some R1b-L21 and R1b-U152) if not overwhelming, and inland Germanics have a lot of Y-I1 + some Y-R1a
and the Normans that took foot in Sicily were a mix with Francs and Gallo-Romans (Breton noble MEN among them) -they were no more the genuine Vikings
 
The Normans that invaded Sicily came from Normandie,France; they would have had a typically French genetic profile. I suspect R1b P312 clades (definite u152 predominance) with very low % infusion of Scandinavian (I1) and Germanic (R-S21) elements. According to the general region of France they came from, I think they were predominantly R-u152 wi a strong I1 substratum and rare R-S21 or other P312 lineages. The Normans of Normandy have nothing to do with the Norwegians, nor with the LOMBARDS that migrated from southern Sweden/Denmark to north Italy and then campaigned south.
 
Over all, any and all subclades of hg I are rare on the italian peninsula. I1a,I2a,I2b; they've all left minimal genetic impact on Italy I and all it's subclades, along with R1a (at leas that we can see of today but there's pretty solid evidence R1a never mass migrated to Italy, Sardinia's Balkanic genetic profile with it's own subtype of I2a is a mystery though.
 
The Normans that invaded Sicily came from Normandie,France; they would have had a typically French genetic profile. I suspect R1b P312 clades (definite u152 predominance) with very low % infusion of Scandinavian (I1) and Germanic (R-S21) elements. According to the general region of France they came from, I think they were predominantly R-u152 wi a strong I1 substratum and rare R-S21 or other P312 lineages. The Normans of Normandy have nothing to do with the Norwegians, nor with the LOMBARDS that migrated from southern Sweden/Denmark to north Italy and then campaigned south.

I agree for the most you say but don't be to affirmative concerning Normands of France: in a (scarce enough, it's true) sample of Normandy they found 11% of Y-I1, as high as in Flanders-Artois, more than in Elsass/alsace (10%) or Brittany (8%) - I believe old north coasts of France HAD MORE Y-I1 at some stage of History (the times of the Sicily conquest) so, let's be carefull in affirmations - on the phenotypical side, Normands show easily more 'nordic'like than Bretons anthan the majority of other Frenchmen too
concerning France, I wait (hope helps to live) some more studies on larger samples: I would not be surprised if Brittany would show a bit less Y-I1 (I suppose it is denser in East than in West) in future...
 
Are you trying to find germanic links with I1 in italy ?

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da_Polenta

da Polenta from Romagna region ........origins german ...........seek english text

da Carrara from Padua ........origins tyrolese ( where tyrolese germans then ...unsure )

Savorgnan from Udine .........origins austrian

The only italian family from NEI I know is the Este family ................but I never really looked.

What are you trying to prove? ...........Genetic markers belong to NO nationality..........we are all mongrel people in Europe and elsewhere

If you cannot prove migrations and ancient ethnic groups,than what is the point of ydna research?
 

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