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Thread: Distribution of I1 in Italy (Boattini et al.)

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    Thanks for these informative posts Nobody1. I'm interested to hear your explanation of the earlier Kings of Denmark circa 700 A.D. That seems to be a confusing era for some reason. (Might be a different thread however).
    Did you hear about Dark Ages? :)
    Not many could write, and even fewer papers that was written survived.

    It went like this: Poverty, cold climate, low population, lack of food, poverty, little ice age, black death, decline, poverty, failed corps, expensive paper, expensive education, poverty, ...... you'd better pray for global warming. :)) Ice age is disaster, even the little one.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Did you hear about Dark Ages? :)
    Not many could write, and even fewer papers that was written survived.

    It went like this: Poverty, cold climate, low population, lack of food, poverty, little ice age, black death, decline, poverty, failed corps, expensive paper, expensive education, poverty, ...... you'd better pray for global warming. :)) Ice age is disaster, even the little one.
    True, true.

    But what I was specifically referring to here is what seems like a subtle avoidance from the rest of "Dark Age" Europe to recognize the Norse Kings-- aka Sea-Kings. I recently watched a history professor speak (from Tulane University here in the U.S. I think-- will site name and exact video later) and he seemed to put the Viking/Norse leaders in a seperate catagory... even stated that they as a people were searching for a "real" king. I must admit I find this difficult to accept.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    True, true.

    But what I was specifically referring to here is what seems like a subtle avoidance from the rest of "Dark Age" Europe to recognize the Norse Kings-- aka Sea-Kings. I recently watched a history professor speak (from Tulane University here in the U.S. I think-- will site name and exact video later) and he seemed to put the Viking/Norse leaders in a seperate catagory... even stated that they as a people were searching for a "real" king. I must admit I find this difficult to accept.
    I feel the same, because there is so little information that survived till today. There is too much speculation on some historians part.
    Probably at this moment we know more from excavation than from surviving documents.
    Damn you dark ages!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The other surprise were the 10.5% in Bologna.
    Not a suprise.

    Bologna was occupied by Lombards, in a period in which its population was at the minimum level and all lived inside the small difensive walls (the legend says that the guardians on the defensive walls could speak each other from opposite points).

    The Lombards settled in eastern part of the town; the western part was so spoiled to be named "civitas rupta".

    Some suggests that the difference between dialect spoken in the eastern and the western part of the town underlined by Dante in the "De Vulgari Eloquentia" is due to the predominant presence of Lomabards in the eastern part.

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    The Boii would have settled Bologna and given it their name having arrived from the Germany-Czech area, they probably had a form of R1b OTHER than u152.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Wow, Lombards from Sicily; thats impressive
    Ive read that you kept (in some comunes) the Old [Medieval] Gallo-Italic language for the last 1,000 years.

    U-106 i would think is more German (Swabian) Staufer period
    [i edited a bit about the Catania castle later on -post#6]
    R1a could also be Normannic, since R1a is significant in Norway;
    But im not familiar with sub-clades since all studies state the R1a in Sicily is M-17?
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results

    Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy [Boattini 2013 + other studies],
    on the other hand U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;

    My specification: U-152 = Lombards / U-106 = Swabians[Germans] / I1-M253 = Normans [pos. also R1a]
    in western Norway, Y-R1b-U106 is significant (and even; some R1b-L21 and R1b-U152) if not overwhelming, and inland Germanics have a lot of Y-I1 + some Y-R1a
    and the Normans that took foot in Sicily were a mix with Francs and Gallo-Romans (Breton noble MEN among them) -they were no more the genuine Vikings

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    The Normans that invaded Sicily came from Normandie,France; they would have had a typically French genetic profile. I suspect R1b P312 clades (definite u152 predominance) with very low % infusion of Scandinavian (I1) and Germanic (R-S21) elements. According to the general region of France they came from, I think they were predominantly R-u152 wi a strong I1 substratum and rare R-S21 or other P312 lineages. The Normans of Normandy have nothing to do with the Norwegians, nor with the LOMBARDS that migrated from southern Sweden/Denmark to north Italy and then campaigned south.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Over all, any and all subclades of hg I are rare on the italian peninsula. I1a,I2a,I2b; they've all left minimal genetic impact on Italy I and all it's subclades, along with R1a (at leas that we can see of today but there's pretty solid evidence R1a never mass migrated to Italy, Sardinia's Balkanic genetic profile with it's own subtype of I2a is a mystery though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    The Normans that invaded Sicily came from Normandie,France; they would have had a typically French genetic profile. I suspect R1b P312 clades (definite u152 predominance) with very low % infusion of Scandinavian (I1) and Germanic (R-S21) elements. According to the general region of France they came from, I think they were predominantly R-u152 wi a strong I1 substratum and rare R-S21 or other P312 lineages. The Normans of Normandy have nothing to do with the Norwegians, nor with the LOMBARDS that migrated from southern Sweden/Denmark to north Italy and then campaigned south.
    I agree for the most you say but don't be to affirmative concerning Normands of France: in a (scarce enough, it's true) sample of Normandy they found 11% of Y-I1, as high as in Flanders-Artois, more than in Elsass/alsace (10%) or Brittany (8%) - I believe old north coasts of France HAD MORE Y-I1 at some stage of History (the times of the Sicily conquest) so, let's be carefull in affirmations - on the phenotypical side, Normands show easily more 'nordic'like than Bretons anthan the majority of other Frenchmen too
    concerning France, I wait (hope helps to live) some more studies on larger samples: I would not be surprised if Brittany would show a bit less Y-I1 (I suppose it is denser in East than in West) in future...

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Are you trying to find germanic links with I1 in italy ?

    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da_Polenta

    da Polenta from Romagna region ........origins german ...........seek english text

    da Carrara from Padua ........origins tyrolese ( where tyrolese germans then ...unsure )

    Savorgnan from Udine .........origins austrian

    The only italian family from NEI I know is the Este family ................but I never really looked.

    What are you trying to prove? ...........Genetic markers belong to NO nationality..........we are all mongrel people in Europe and elsewhere
    If you cannot prove migrations and ancient ethnic groups,than what is the point of ydna research?

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    The Lombards were tied neither to R1b P-312 nor R1b-u106 but probably to I1. I1 in italy peaks in friulia (20%) Trentino alto (20%) and Molise (15%). 18% of men from Vicenza Veneto are hg I1.

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    They may have had a minor u-106 substratum; u106 is present in a maximum of 2-3% of north-italian lineages. I1 is found at 5%.

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    let's wait more subregional data - even at regional level, there were different histories - I suppose R-U106 as a whole is stronger in some places of N-Italy (I think germanic tribes had a strpnger impact in N-E Italy than in central N-Italy whereauthoctones, Ligurians and Celts was denser

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Hi,

    I tested positive for M253! And it goes on like this: Z140 > Y6231 > Y7277 > Y10890*
    With the particularity of having marker DYS426=10
    The latest ancestor I could track born around 1770, was from Molise, Campobasso!

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    I have just found out my grandfather - maternal side ydna
    I1-L759 (I1-CTS10140, I1-CTS10338)
    Can anyone tell me about this marker....origins or other
    .
    .
    other positive SNPs
    CTS10349+,CTS242+,CTS2496+,CTS6009+,CTS6009+,F3750 +,FB1791+,FGC42+,L119+,L1249+,L81+,M212+,M47+,M537 9+,M5449+,P14+,P40+,PF1451+,PF1636+,PF2704+,PF6503 +,S27128+,S27131+,S27190+,S27238+,S27247+,S27445+S 27475+,S27531+,S27562+,S27574+,S27605+,S27644+,S27 653+,S27774+,V63+
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I have just found out my grandfather - maternal side ydna
    I1-L759 (I1-CTS10140, I1-CTS10338)
    Can anyone tell me about this marker....origins or other
    .
    .
    other positive SNPs
    CTS10349+,CTS242+,CTS2496+,CTS6009+,CTS6009+,F3750 +,FB1791+,FGC42+,L119+,L1249+,L81+,M212+,M47+,M537 9+,M5449+,P14+,P40+,PF1451+,PF1636+,PF2704+,PF6503 +,S27128+,S27131+,S27190+,S27238+,S27247+,S27445+S 27475+,S27531+,S27562+,S27574+,S27605+,S27644+,S27 653+,S27774+,V63+
    What is your source? That looks like a basic call for plain I1 without any further detail.
    Administrator of the Young Family Project
    Genetic genealogy enthusiast

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I have just found out my grandfather - maternal side ydna
    I1-L759 (I1-CTS10140, I1-CTS10338)
    Can anyone tell me about this marker....origins or other
    .
    .
    other positive SNPs
    CTS10349+,CTS242+,CTS2496+,CTS6009+,CTS6009+,F3750 +,FB1791+,FGC42+,L119+,L1249+,L81+,M212+,M47+,M537 9+,M5449+,P14+,P40+,PF1451+,PF1636+,PF2704+,PF6503 +,S27128+,S27131+,S27190+,S27238+,S27247+,S27445+S 27475+,S27531+,S27562+,S27574+,S27605+,S27644+,S27 653+,S27774+,V63+
    further clarification of my grandmother brother line
    I1d - L22
    CTS6009
    .
    yfull = Y4734
    I-Y4734Y4735 * Y4736 * Y4737+22 SNPsformed 2400 ybp, TMRCA 1100 ybp

    I-Y4734*CTS6009 * YFC094309 * YFC085690+10 SNPs

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    further clarification of my grandmother brother line
    I1d - L22
    CTS6009
    .
    yfull = Y4734
    I-Y4734Y4735 * Y4736 * Y4737+22 SNPsformed 2400 ybp, TMRCA 1100 ybp

    I-Y4734*CTS6009 * YFC094309 * YFC085690+10 SNPs
    Looks very Scandinavian, almost exclusively so. What geographic location did your great uncle come from? Straya?

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    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    Looks very Scandinavian, almost exclusively so. What geographic location did your great uncle come from? Straya?
    http://www.baseggio.net/index.php?cc...o_bornplace=19

    Merlengo in Veneto italy ..........his father Modesto and his grandfather Gian Battista b. 1793 likewise

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    http://www.baseggio.net/index.php?cc...o_bornplace=19

    Merlengo in Veneto italy ..........his father Modesto and his grandfather Gian Battista b. 1793 likewise
    That is interesting. Do you have STR results? I checked Yfull and the FTDNA I1 project and couldn't find another sample anywhere close to Italy. Your paternal line could have been a rare addition to whatever party moved to northern Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    That is interesting. Do you have STR results? I checked Yfull and the FTDNA I1 project and couldn't find another sample anywhere close to Italy. Your paternal line could have been a rare addition to whatever party moved to northern Italy.
    not yet....I will try to get them ............do you need them for something?
    .
    .
    Do you mean , you could not find any I1 or L22
    this person is close to Merlengo
    N15793 Rugo, ca. 1500, Tramonti di Sotto, Friuli-VG Italy
    .
    .
    BTW..its not my paternal line......but the paternal line of my grandmother .who is noted Maria in the link

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    not yet....I will try to get them ............do you need them for something?
    .
    .
    Do you mean , you could not find any I1 or L22
    this person is close to Merlengo
    N15793 Rugo, ca. 1500, Tramonti di Sotto, Friuli-VG Italy
    .
    .
    BTW..its not my paternal line......but the paternal line of my grandmother .who is noted Maria in the link
    I was only looking at the known locations of SNP "Y4734"

    Usually the Gothic I1 YDNA is found in Poland, the Balkans, Italy, Iberia. Y4734 is so far noted as Scandinavia and England (going to guess Viking spread). No reports of it in Germany, Netherlands, or other continental countries.

    Perhaps your grandfather's line was a transplant between 1000 and 1500 AD for some reason. Or, it could have been a more unique marker compared to the rest of the Ostrogothic YDNA that ended up in Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    I was only looking at the known locations of SNP "Y4734"

    Usually the Gothic I1 YDNA is found in Poland, the Balkans, Italy, Iberia. Y4734 is so far noted as Scandinavia and England (going to guess Viking spread). No reports of it in Germany, Netherlands, or other continental countries.

    Perhaps your grandfather's line was a transplant between 1000 and 1500 AD for some reason. Or, it could have been a more unique marker compared to the rest of the Ostrogothic YDNA that ended up in Italy.
    The ostrogoths arrived in italy before the lombards and stayed over 200 years with their capital being Ravenna ...not far from venice today.

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    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    That is interesting. Do you have STR results? I checked Yfull and the FTDNA I1 project and couldn't find another sample anywhere close to Italy. Your paternal line could have been a rare addition to whatever party moved to northern Italy.
    i found out over the W/E the STR ( i need to visit her to confirm)

    13 23 14 10 14-14 11 14 12 12 11 29

    so, it should be Il- P109 Y4734

  25. #75
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z63*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5b1

    Ethnic group
    Basically British
    Country: USA - Arkansas



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    i found out over the W/E the STR ( i need to visit her to confirm)

    13 23 14 10 14-14 11 14 12 12 11 29

    so, it should be Il- P109 Y4734
    That's not enough STRs to get good matches for relations. I will stick to the highest chance of being a more rare Ostrogothic Y line.

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