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Thread: Distribution of I1 in Italy (Boattini et al.)

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    Post Distribution of I1 in Italy (Boattini et al.)

    Haplogroup I1 is a marker of Germanic migrations to Italy. The Ostrogoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks and Normans all left some I1 lineages behind them. The distribution of I1 is fairly homogeneous all over Italy, usually ranging from 1 to 5%. I had a look at the new study by Boattini et al. to see if hotspots could be identified. Let's also note that this is the first Italy-wide study that tests other I subclades than I2a1a (M26, former I1b2), and the first to confirm I1 percentages at a provincial level.

    The first surprise came in Vicenza, where 17.5% of the male lineages belonged to I1, a proportion rarely seen outside Scandinavia or northern Germany. The other surprise were the 10.5% in Bologna.

    Campobasso (14%) is the third hotspot, but that one was expected, as the city was founded by the Lombards, a tribe that originated in southern Sweden.

    It's interesting to compare Campobasso, a Lombard city, with L'Aquila, a city founded in the 13th century by the Germans (mostly Swabians). While half of Campobasso's Germanic lineages are I1 (the rest being R1b-U106 and I2b1), L'Aquila completely lacks I1. Its Germanic lineages are one I2b1, one R1a, and one R1b-U106. This looks much more southwest German indeed. There is surely some I1, but the proportion within German lineages shouldnt exceed 10-15% if settlers came from southern Germany.

    Apart from that, the frequencies observed were always within the expected range. I1 was completely absent from Sardinia and Catania, as in past studies.


    North Italy

    In Cuneo, south-west Piedmont, 1 out of 30 samples are I1 (3.5%).

    In Savona/Genova, central Liguria, 2 out of 50 samples are I1 (4%).

    In Como, north-west Lombardy, 1 out of 41 samples are I1 (2.5%).

    In Brescia, north-east Lombardy, 1 out of 39 samples are I1 (2.5%).

    In Vicenza, central-west Veneto, 7 out of 40 samples are I1 (17.5%).

    In Treviso, central-east Veneto, 1 out of 30 samples are I1 (3.5%).

    In Bologna, central Emilia-Romagna, 3 out of 29 samples I1 (10.5%).


    Central Italy

    In La Spezia-Massa, north-west Tuscany, 1 out of 24 samples are I1 (4%).

    In Pistoia, central-north Tuscany, 0 out of 13 samples are I1 (0%).

    In Grosetto-Siena, southern Tuscany, 4 out of 86 samples are I1 (4.5%).

    In Foligno, central-east Umbria, 1 out of 37 samples are I1 (2.5%).

    In Macerata, central-east Marche, 0 out of 40 samples are I1 (0%).


    South Italy

    In L'Aquila, Abruzzo, 0 out of 23 samples are I1 (0%).

    In Campobasso, Molise, 4 out of 29 samples are I1 (14%).

    In Benevento, Campania, 1 out of 36 samples is I1 (2.5%).

    In Matera, Basilicata, 0 samples out of 25 are I1 (0%).

    In Lecce, Apulia, 1 out of 39 samples is I1 (2.5%).

    In Cosenza/Catanzaro/Crotone, Calabria, 1 out of 38 samples is I1 (2.5%).

    In Catania, eastern Sicily, 0 out of 62 samples is I1 (0%).

    In Ragusa, southeast Sicily, 1 out of 44 samples is I1 (2%).

    In Agrigento, southwest Sicily, 1 out of 42 samples is I1 (2.5%)

    In Olbia/Tempio/Nuoro, north-east Sardinia, 0 out of 40 samples is I1 (0%).

    In Oristano, central-west Sardinia, 0 out of 42 samples are I1 (0%).


    EDIT : I have added the hotspots on the I1 map.

    Last edited by Maciamo; 10-06-13 at 10:37.
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    vicenza was the centre of 2 ruling "german" families. The Ezellini from augsburg bavaria and the scaliger from swabian lands.

    they brought many "german" austrian people to north italy.....most came in the March of Treviso

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaligeri

    The italians changed the name to la Scala family ( ladder ) but Scaliger is correct. their seat lay between verona and vicenza.
    The ezellini lived at Bassano which sits under Vicenza province.

    to conclude , we do not know if the goths, vandals etc brought this marker ..........let me know if you know more
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    vicenza was the centre of 2 ruling "german" families. The Ezellini from augsburg bavaria and the scaliger from swabian lands.

    they brought many "german" austrian people to north italy.....most came in the March of Treviso

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaligeri

    The italians changed the name to la Scala family ( ladder ) but Scaliger is correct. their seat lay between verona and vicenza.
    The ezellini lived at Bassano which sits under Vicenza province.
    Good to know. Thanks.

    to conclude , we do not know if the goths, vandals etc brought this marker ..........let me know if you know more
    There is no reason to believe that any Germanic people lacked I1.

    I think that the four I1 samples from Campobasso is enough to prove that the Lombards had a remarkably high percentage of haplogroup I1. Among other Germanic haplogroups found in Campobasso were three R1b-U106 and one I2b1. The sample size is small, but judging from that, the Lombards appear to have had approximately 50% of I1, 37.5% of R1b, 12.5% of I2b1 and 0% of R1a. They originated in Scania, southern Sweden, where the haplogroup proportion is similar, except for the higher R1a and lower I2b1, as well as the presence of a minority of E, G, J and T which cannot be discerned from the native Italian one in Campobasso.

    The Ostrogoths were the first Germanic tribe to invade Italy and the only one who had control over the whole peninsula. Their capital was in Ravenna, Romagna. Ferri et al. 2007 tested 98 individuals from Rimini and 65 from Valmarecchia, both near Ravenna. They found respectively 4% and 3% of I1+I2b, and 1% and 1.5% of R1a. They didn't test R1b subclades.

    Some people on this forum have argued that the Goths were Slavic or at least a predominantly R1a tribe because of their Eastern European origins. Yet, all the places settled by the Visigoths (southern France + Iberia) and Ostrogoths (Italy) have more I1 (and R1b-S21) than R1a. This undeniably confirms the Scandinavian origins of the Goths.

    As for the Normans, the presence of Germanic lineages where they settled in northern Sicily is blatant (although some Germanic lineages in Sicily could also be attributed to the Vandals).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I think that the four I1 samples from Campobasso is enough to prove that the Lombards had a remarkably high percentage of haplogroup I1. Among other Germanic haplogroups found in Campobasso were three R1b-U106 and one I2b1. The sample size is small, but judging from that, the Lombards appear to have had approximately 50% of I1, 37.5% of R1b, 12.5% of I2b1 and 0% of R1a. They originated in Scania, southern Sweden, where the haplogroup proportion is similar, except for the higher R1a and lower I2b1, as well as the presence of a minority of E, G, J and T which cannot be discerned from the native Italian one in Campobasso.
    IIRC the lombards are reffered to west germanic now , instead of east germanic due to linguistics. So these would be west german markers



    Some people on this forum have argued that the Goths were Slavic or at least a predominantly R1a tribe because of their Eastern European origins. Yet, all the places settled by the Visigoths (southern France + Iberia) and Ostrogoths (Italy) have more I1 (and R1b-S21) than R1a. This undeniably confirms the Scandinavian origins of the Goths.
    I believe the goths are baltic people originally, living between the Elbe river and samogitia as stated by ancient historians. They learnt germanic over time as neighbours of the suebi and vandili peoples ( most likely because of trade ).
    They had the I1 marker plus R1a . The R1a gothic graves on the lower vistula river have never been found in scandinavia. There is continental I1 in old east germanic lands.
    The ancient never called goths , germani ...or... never called germani , goths. 2 different people, 2 different cultures

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I believe the goths are baltic people originally, living between the Elbe river and samogitia as stated by ancient historians. They learnt germanic over time as neighbours of the suebi and vandili peoples ( most likely because of trade ).
    They had the I1 marker plus R1a . The R1a gothic graves on the lower vistula river have never been found in scandinavia. There is continental I1 in old east germanic lands.
    The ancient never called goths , germani ...or... never called germani , goths. 2 different people, 2 different cultures
    If they were Baltic they would have a considerable percentage of N1c1 lineages. Where are these in Italy and Iberia ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    If they were Baltic they would have a considerable percentage of N1c1 lineages. Where are these in Italy and Iberia ?
    west-balts do not have N1c. it only came late in the area
    but 1% of N1c was found in bosnia...........I have already indicated previously this

    besides Ferri paper
    98 from Rimini: R1b 51%, J2 17%, E3b1 11%, G 7%, E3b3a 4%, I* 4%, N3 2%
    65 from Valmarecchia: R1b 46%, J2 15%, E3b1 18%, G 11%, I* 3%

    has 2% of N in Rimini

    other papers for the northern area are Pelotti 2008 and Turrina 2006
    Last edited by zanipolo; 10-06-13 at 22:52.

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    It's interesting to see such a high frequency of I1, but it's even more interesting that essentially none of this is L22+; especially if we're arguing for a Swedish origin for some of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pyromatic View Post
    It's interesting to see such a high frequency of I1, but it's even more interesting that essentially none of this is L22+; especially if we're arguing for a Swedish origin for some of it.
    On the contrary what's interesting is that quite a few of the I1 samples in the south of Italy are L22. I1d-L22 has been found only in Vicenza and La Spezia in the north and Grosseto/Siena in the center, but in many places in the south (Benevento, Lecce, Agrigento, Ragusa/Siracusa). The samples from southern Sicily could be of Vandal origin, since the Normans settled mostly in northern Sicily. Benevento was a Lombard duchy. Lecce's I1d could be either Lombard or Norman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    On the contrary what's interesting is that quite a few of the I1 samples in the south of Italy are L22. I1d-L22 has been found only in Vicenza and La Spezia in the north and Grosseto/Siena in the center, but in many places in the south (Benevento, Lecce, Agrigento, Ragusa/Siracusa). The samples from southern Sicily could be of Vandal origin, since the Normans settled mostly in northern Sicily. Benevento was a Lombard duchy. Lecce's I1d could be either Lombard or Norman.
    La Spezia (Liguria), Massa (Tuscany) and Grosseto/Siena (Tuscany) were also under a Lombard duchy (Langobardia Maior).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    On the contrary what's interesting is that quite a few of the I1 samples in the south of Italy are L22. I1d-L22 has been found only in Vicenza and La Spezia in the north and Grosseto/Siena in the center, but in many places in the south (Benevento, Lecce, Agrigento, Ragusa/Siracusa). The samples from southern Sicily could be of Vandal origin, since the Normans settled mostly in northern Sicily. Benevento was a Lombard duchy. Lecce's I1d could be either Lombard or Norman.
    Is the sample size really large enough to draw that conclusion? From Table 2, it appears that there were only four I1-L22+ samples found of which three were P109+. Over all, only 16-17% of the I1 noted in Italy is L22+. In Area II, about 14-15% is L22+, and none in Area III is. From the public data at the FTDNA haplogroup I1 project, it appears that about 55% of the Swedish I1 is L22+. It may be that these Italian data are more consistent with a continental origin of its I1.

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    This may sound weird, but I'm surprised the I1 percentages in Sicily weren't higher. With the Viking and then Norman landings, I assumed I1 would be in the lower double digits near some of the ports. I think more I1 will be found in Sicily over time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    This may sound weird, but I'm surprised the I1 percentages in Sicily weren't higher. With the Viking and then Norman landings, I assumed I1 would be in the lower double digits near some of the ports. I think more I1 will be found in Sicily over time.
    Depends on the places. The Norman presence was not homogeneous in Sicily, like for any other ethnic group. Sicily is a patchwork. Catania, Ragusa, Agrigento to me seems not to be traditional Norman places in Sicily. Palermo area and some other areas could have much more I1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    This may sound weird, but I'm surprised the I1 percentages in Sicily weren't higher. With the Viking and then Norman landings, I assumed I1 would be in the lower double digits near some of the ports. I think more I1 will be found in Sicily over time.
    The Normans settled mostly around Palermo, in north-west Sicily. This study did not include samples from northern Sicily. This case demonstrates just how big variations can be from one city/province to the next.

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    From Di Gaetano, Cerutti, Crobu et alter (2009)

    I1-M253

    Caccamo (Pa) 18,75 %
    Trapani 9,09 %
    Alcamo (Tp) 8,33 %
    Piazza Armerina (En) 7,14 %

    I1b1b M26

    Caccamo (Pa) 6,25%
    Sciacca (Ag) 3,57 %
    Trapani 3,03 %

    I1b2a M223
    Caccamo (Pa) 6,25%

    I M170
    Alcamo 4,17%
    Trapani 3,03%


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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    This may sound weird, but I'm surprised the I1 percentages in Sicily weren't higher. With the Viking and then Norman landings, I assumed I1 would be in the lower double digits near some of the ports. I think more I1 will be found in Sicily over time.
    Look no further;

    DiGaetano et al 2009
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/

    West Sicily = 8.2% I1-M253
    ---
    East Sicily = 1.75% I1-M253
    ------

    Also Rootsi et al 2004 - found 8.8% Hg I (not specified sub-clades)
    http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/DNA...oupISpread.pdf

    Equally Capelli et al 2005 - 8.5% Hg I (not specified sub-clades)
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...09.00538.x/pdf

    Most of the samples [96 out of 141] from Boattini et al 2013 were from the East of Sicily; hence only 1.4% Hg I1

    Historically the Normans settled in the Western part of the Island, amongst the fiefdoms they conquered from the Saracens;
    Agrigento (the other 45 samples) declined in the Middle ages, so obv. not much Normannic resettlement;

    The East was granted to Lombard (Christian / Latin) settlers; hence 7.1% R1b U-152 -Boattini 2013

    R1a [M17] in Sicily is also interesting:
    5.7% -Boattini 2013 / 5.5% -DiGaetano 2009

    also to note of course:
    R1b-U106 = 5.6% -Boattini 2013

    majority from Catania which was an important Staufer Castle, during the
    Hohenstaufen (Swabian) Dynasty;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post

    Most of the samples [96 out of 141] from Boattini et al 2013 were from the East of Sicily; hence only 1.4% Hg I1

    Historically the Normans settled in the Western part of the Island, amongst the fiefdoms they conquered from the Saracens;
    Agrigento (the other 45 samples) declined in the Middle ages, so obv. not much Normannic resettlement;

    The East was granted to Lombard (Christian / Latin) settlers; hence 7.1% R1b U-152 -Boattini 2013

    R1a [M17] in Sicily is also interesting: 5.7% -Boattini 2013 / 5.5% -DiGaetano 2009
    Right, samples from Boattini et alter were from East, and South South-East Sicily.

    Lombards could be both R1b U-152, and R1a, IMHO. Also U-106, maybe. North-East and Central-East Sicily (Valdemone) were granted to Lombards, you're right again. And two communities not more existing near Palermo.

    Your reconstruction is right and proper (I'm by my paternal line a descendant of Lombards of Sicily).

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    Quote Originally Posted by agnieu View Post
    Right, samples from Boattini et alter were from East, and South South-East Sicily.

    Lombards could be both R1b U-152, and R1a, IMHO. Also U-106, maybe. North-East and Central-East Sicily (Valdemone) were granted to Lombards, you're right again. And two communities not more existing near Palermo.

    Your reconstruction is right and proper (I'm by my paternal line a descendant of Lombards of Sicily).
    Wow, Lombards from Sicily; thats impressive
    Ive read that you kept (in some comunes) the Old [Medieval] Gallo-Italic language for the last 1,000 years.

    U-106 i would think is more German (Swabian) Staufer period
    [i edited a bit about the Catania castle later on -post#6]
    R1a could also be Normannic, since R1a is significant in Norway;
    But im not familiar with sub-clades since all studies state the R1a in Sicily is M-17?
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results

    Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy [Boattini 2013 + other studies],
    on the other hand U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;

    My specification: U-152 = Lombards / U-106 = Swabians[Germans] / I1-M253 = Normans [pos. also R1a]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Wow, Lombards from Sicily; thats impressive
    Ive read that you kept (in some comunes) the Old [Medieval] Gallo-Italic language for the last 1,000 years.
    That's true. In some comunes (San Fratello, Sperlinga, Nicosia...) it's still spoken our language, every day. My paternal line comes from one of these. We call our pais Safrareu or San Frareau, Sicilians call it Santu Frateddu. We're very jealous of our identity. Other Sicilians call us sometimes, in a derogatory manner, the Frenchies. But We don't enjoy any legal protection, as it happens for other linguistic minorities in Italy. In Italy linguistic minorities are very protected, except us and the Tabarchini people, Ligurian settlers who live in Carloforte in Sardinia and They still think to be in Liguria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post

    U-106 i would think is more German (Swabian) Staufer period
    [i edited a bit about the Catania castle later on -post#6]
    R1a could also be Normannic, since R1a is significant in Norway;
    But im not familiar with sub-clades since all studies state the R1a in Sicily is M-17?
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results

    Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy [Boattini 2013 + other studies],
    on the other hand U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;

    My specification: U-152 = Lombards / U-106 = Swabians[Germans] / I1-M253 = Normans [pos. also R1a]
    Your specification seems fair. I have found on FTDNA a person from San Fratello (a true "gallo-italic" from San Fratello) that is U-106 and a person from Novara di Sicilia (another historical Lombard commune of Sicily) that is R1a. This is the reason why of my assumption about U-106 and R1a.

    I Have discussed here

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-DNA-in-Sicily

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Wow, Lombards from Sicily; thats impressive
    Ive read that you kept (in some comunes) the Old [Medieval] Gallo-Italic language for the last 1,000 years.

    U-106 i would think is more German (Swabian) Staufer period
    [i edited a bit about the Catania castle later on -post#6]
    R1a could also be Normannic, since R1a is significant in Norway;
    But im not familiar with sub-clades since all studies state the R1a in Sicily is M-17?
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results

    Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy [Boattini 2013 + other studies],
    on the other hand U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;

    My specification: U-152 = Lombards / U-106 = Swabians[Germans] / I1-M253 = Normans [pos. also R1a]
    Nobody1, very often I find your posts interesting, so I respect your suggestions - but here I don"t understand why you could assign so easily a unique SNP marker to restricted tribes of same culture: LOmbards by their history had surely Y-I1+Y-R1a+Y-R1b-U106; Y-R1b-U152 seems to me as an aside SNP among true germanic people (maybe a Teutons-Cimbers accretion? or before that some rare BBs?) - and Norwegian Nordmen had the 3 submentioned SNP as all other genuine germanic tribes: only the respective %s can change in some proportion (U106 is heavy among all-R1b in Western Norway (roughly 66%) - if we speak about late "anglo-french Normands", we could find the same SNPs yet, but mixed with others SNP of celtic and pre-celtic origin -
    if you speak about modern Lombards, and not Longobards, I see as beeing more Celts than Germanics, the
    n yes I agree Y-R1b U152 (of eastern P-celtic and italic "origin") would be normally frequent enough - even bavarians are not supposed to have send too much R1b-U152 with them -
    general remark: the percentages I red here thank to you all are interesting but about small samples; I need more and more!!!
    have a good brain strom evening!


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    if you speak about modern Lombards, and not Longobards, I see as beeing more Celts than Germanics, then yes I agree Y-R1b U152 (of eastern P-celtic and italic "origin") would be normally frequent enough - even bavarians are not supposed to have send too much R1b-U152 with them -
    general remark: the percentages I red here thank to you all are interesting but about small samples; I need more and more!!!
    have a good brain strom evening!
    Yes medieval (modern) Lombards from North Italy; not the Germanic Langobarden of the migration era;
    Its the same misunderstanding as with Maciamo, as i explained in post# 23

    post #23 -
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    No,
    not the Germanic Langobarden from the Migration era;

    This is strictly Medieval, - Lombards as in North Italians from Medieval Lombardy
    [fiefdom of Holy Roman Empire]

    This [Medieval] Region -


    Roger I of Hauteville
    married Adelaide del Vasto and granted
    Lombard [Christians / Latins] settlers {from Medieval Lombardy} to settle in Eastern Sicily


    post# 6 -
    The East was granted to Lombard (Christian / Latin) settlers; hence 7.1% R1b U-152 -Boattini 2013

    post# 8 -
    Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy [Boattini 2013 + other studies],
    on the other hand U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;


    Thats my connection and logic; U-152 = Lombards {from Lombardy

    ---

    The Medieval Lombards were always allies of the Normannic south; from the beginning of their conquest against the Byzantines; - Battle of Montemaggiore / Battle of Olivento

    Ioannes Skylitzes - 11th cen. Byzantine
    Michael was defeated and lost the better part of his army, he shamefully taking refuge in Cannae. Crippled like this he was none the wiser for his wound.....took back into battle his defeated forces together with the Pisidians and Lycaonians who make up the unit of the foederati and fell on the enemy at a place called Horai. Again he was severely defeated by the Franks who had now allied with themselves a considerable host of Italians living around the river Po and in the foothills of the Alps.

    The Lombards of Sicily;

    Prof. Will Seymour Monroe - Spell of Sicily: The Garden of the Mediterranean (1909)
    The Lombards have also retained a degree of their original purity. They accompanied Adelaide of Montferrat, wife of Roger I, to Sicily and colonized at San Fratello, Nicosia, Randazzo, Sperligna, Capizzi, and elsewhere. They are tall, broad-shouldered, and fair, and more enterprising than most of the other inhabitants. Because of their keen monetary sense they are sometimes nicknamed "Sicilian Jews". The Lombard dialect is still spoken among them.

    William Harrison De Puy - The Encyclopædia Britannica: Vol.XXII (1893)
    In Sicily there were many nations all protected by the Sicilian king ; but there was no Sicilian nation.
    Greek, Saracen, Norman, Lombard, and Jew could not be fused into one people; it was the boast of Sicily that each kept his laws and tongue undisturbed. Such a state of things could live on only under an enlightened despotism; the discordant elements could not join to work out really free and national 'institutions.


    William Agnew Paton - Picturesque Sicily (1897)
    The latter curious town, situated high in the mountains, is inhabited by a people who speak a Lombard dialect, which testifies to their descent from the mercenaries who accompanied Roger in his first Sicilian campaign.


    ~1000 years later the Lombards still speak their Gallo-Italic language in Sicily;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Wow, Lombards from Sicily; thats impressive
    Ive read that you kept (in some comunes) the Old [Medieval] Gallo-Italic language for the last 1,000 years.

    U-106 i would think is more German (Swabian) Staufer period
    [i edited a bit about the Catania castle later on -post#6]
    R1a could also be Normannic, since R1a is significant in Norway;
    But im not familiar with sub-clades since all studies state the R1a in Sicily is M-17?
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results

    Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy [Boattini 2013 + other studies],
    on the other hand U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;

    My specification: U-152 = Lombards / U-106 = Swabians[Germans] / I1-M253 = Normans [pos. also R1a]
    in western Norway, Y-R1b-U106 is significant (and even; some R1b-L21 and R1b-U152) if not overwhelming, and inland Germanics have a lot of Y-I1 + some Y-R1a
    and the Normans that took foot in Sicily were a mix with Francs and Gallo-Romans (Breton noble MEN among them) -they were no more the genuine Vikings

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    majority from Catania which was an important Staufer Castle, during the
    Hohenstaufen (Swabian) Dynasty;
    That surely explains why Catania's Germanic lineages are mostly R1b-U106 (9.5% of the total in Catania in this study), just like L'Aquila's, but have very little I1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    My specification: U-152 = Lombards / U-106 = Swabians[Germans] / I1-M253 = Normans [pos. also R1a]
    I usually agree with what you write, but how on earth would you think that U152 is of Germanic origin (and Swedish at that), while it is almost absent from Scandinavia !?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    I usually agree with what you write, but how on earth would you think that U152 is of Germanic origin (and Swedish at that), while it is almost absent from Scandinavia !?
    I think that he is referring to Lombards from North-West Italy, because in medieval ages Lombard was an ethnonym, derived from Germanic Longobards, used to indicate all the people from Northern-Western Italy (today Piedmont, Lombardy, Liguria, Emilia).

    What kind of haplogroups do the Germanic Lombards-Longobards could have?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I usually agree with what you write, but how on earth would you think that U152 is of Germanic origin (and Swedish at that), while it is almost absent from Scandinavia !?
    No,
    not the Germanic Langobarden from the Migration era;

    This is strictly Medieval, - Lombards as in North Italians from Medieval Lombardy
    [fiefdom of Holy Roman Empire]

    This [Medieval] Region -


    Roger I of Hauteville
    married Adelaide del Vasto and granted
    Lombard [Christians / Latins] settlers {from Medieval Lombardy} to settle in Eastern Sicily


    post# 6 -
    The East was granted to Lombard (Christian / Latin) settlers; hence 7.1% R1b U-152 -Boattini 2013

    post# 8 -
    Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy [Boattini 2013 + other studies],
    on the other hand U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;


    Thats my connection and logic; U-152 = Lombards {from Lombardy

    ---

    The Medieval Lombards were always allies of the Normannic south; from the beginning of their conquest against the Byzantines; - Battle of Montemaggiore / Battle of Olivento

    Ioannes Skylitzes - 11th cen. Byzantine
    Michael was defeated and lost the better part of his army, he shamefully taking refuge in Cannae. Crippled like this he was none the wiser for his wound.....took back into battle his defeated forces together with the Pisidians and Lycaonians who make up the unit of the foederati and fell on the enemy at a place called Horai. Again he was severely defeated by the Franks who had now allied with themselves a considerable host of Italians living around the river Po and in the foothills of the Alps.

    The Lombards of Sicily;

    Prof. Will Seymour Monroe - Spell of Sicily: The Garden of the Mediterranean (1909)
    The Lombards have also retained a degree of their original purity. They accompanied Adelaide of Montferrat, wife of Roger I, to Sicily and colonized at San Fratello, Nicosia, Randazzo, Sperligna, Capizzi, and elsewhere. They are tall, broad-shouldered, and fair, and more enterprising than most of the other inhabitants. Because of their keen monetary sense they are sometimes nicknamed "Sicilian Jews". The Lombard dialect is still spoken among them.

    William Harrison De Puy - The Encyclopædia Britannica: Vol.XXII (1893)
    In Sicily there were many nations all protected by the Sicilian king ; but there was no Sicilian nation.
    Greek, Saracen, Norman, Lombard, and Jew could not be fused into one people; it was the boast of Sicily that each kept his laws and tongue undisturbed. Such a state of things could live on only under an enlightened despotism; the discordant elements could not join to work out really free and national 'institutions.


    William Agnew Paton - Picturesque Sicily (1897)
    The latter curious town, situated high in the mountains, is inhabited by a people who speak a Lombard dialect, which testifies to their descent from the mercenaries who accompanied Roger in his first Sicilian campaign.


    ~1000 years later the Lombards still speak their Gallo-Italic language in Sicily;

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