Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 79

Thread: Distribution of I1 in Italy (Boattini et al.)

  1. #1
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,711
    Points
    702,755
    Level
    100
    Points: 702,755, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 19.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Post Distribution of I1 in Italy (Boattini et al.)

    Haplogroup I1 is a marker of Germanic migrations to Italy. The Ostrogoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks and Normans all left some I1 lineages behind them. The distribution of I1 is fairly homogeneous all over Italy, usually ranging from 1 to 5%. I had a look at the new study by Boattini et al. to see if hotspots could be identified. Let's also note that this is the first Italy-wide study that tests other I subclades than I2a1a (M26, former I1b2), and the first to confirm I1 percentages at a provincial level.

    The first surprise came in Vicenza, where 17.5% of the male lineages belonged to I1, a proportion rarely seen outside Scandinavia or northern Germany. The other surprise were the 10.5% in Bologna.

    Campobasso (14%) is the third hotspot, but that one was expected, as the city was founded by the Lombards, a tribe that originated in southern Sweden.

    It's interesting to compare Campobasso, a Lombard city, with L'Aquila, a city founded in the 13th century by the Germans (mostly Swabians). While half of Campobasso's Germanic lineages are I1 (the rest being R1b-U106 and I2b1), L'Aquila completely lacks I1. Its Germanic lineages are one I2b1, one R1a, and one R1b-U106. This looks much more southwest German indeed. There is surely some I1, but the proportion within German lineages shouldnt exceed 10-15% if settlers came from southern Germany.

    Apart from that, the frequencies observed were always within the expected range. I1 was completely absent from Sardinia and Catania, as in past studies.


    North Italy

    In Cuneo, south-west Piedmont, 1 out of 30 samples are I1 (3.5%).

    In Savona/Genova, central Liguria, 2 out of 50 samples are I1 (4%).

    In Como, north-west Lombardy, 1 out of 41 samples are I1 (2.5%).

    In Brescia, north-east Lombardy, 1 out of 39 samples are I1 (2.5%).

    In Vicenza, central-west Veneto, 7 out of 40 samples are I1 (17.5%).

    In Treviso, central-east Veneto, 1 out of 30 samples are I1 (3.5%).

    In Bologna, central Emilia-Romagna, 3 out of 29 samples I1 (10.5%).


    Central Italy

    In La Spezia-Massa, north-west Tuscany, 1 out of 24 samples are I1 (4%).

    In Pistoia, central-north Tuscany, 0 out of 13 samples are I1 (0%).

    In Grosetto-Siena, southern Tuscany, 4 out of 86 samples are I1 (4.5%).

    In Foligno, central-east Umbria, 1 out of 37 samples are I1 (2.5%).

    In Macerata, central-east Marche, 0 out of 40 samples are I1 (0%).


    South Italy

    In L'Aquila, Abruzzo, 0 out of 23 samples are I1 (0%).

    In Campobasso, Molise, 4 out of 29 samples are I1 (14%).

    In Benevento, Campania, 1 out of 36 samples is I1 (2.5%).

    In Matera, Basilicata, 0 samples out of 25 are I1 (0%).

    In Lecce, Apulia, 1 out of 39 samples is I1 (2.5%).

    In Cosenza/Catanzaro/Crotone, Calabria, 1 out of 38 samples is I1 (2.5%).

    In Catania, eastern Sicily, 0 out of 62 samples is I1 (0%).

    In Ragusa, southeast Sicily, 1 out of 44 samples is I1 (2%).

    In Agrigento, southwest Sicily, 1 out of 42 samples is I1 (2.5%)

    In Olbia/Tempio/Nuoro, north-east Sardinia, 0 out of 40 samples is I1 (0%).

    In Oristano, central-west Sardinia, 0 out of 42 samples are I1 (0%).


    EDIT : I have added the hotspots on the I1 map.

    Last edited by Maciamo; 10-06-13 at 11:37.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,073
    Points
    22,792
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    vicenza was the centre of 2 ruling "german" families. The Ezellini from augsburg bavaria and the scaliger from swabian lands.

    they brought many "german" austrian people to north italy.....most came in the March of Treviso

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaligeri

    The italians changed the name to la Scala family ( ladder ) but Scaliger is correct. their seat lay between verona and vicenza.
    The ezellini lived at Bassano which sits under Vicenza province.

    to conclude , we do not know if the goths, vandals etc brought this marker ..........let me know if you know more
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points
    nordicquarreler's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-05-13
    Posts
    351
    Points
    5,638
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,638, Level: 22
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 412
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European mix
    Country: United States



    This may sound weird, but I'm surprised the I1 percentages in Sicily weren't higher. With the Viking and then Norman landings, I assumed I1 would be in the lower double digits near some of the ports. I think more I1 will be found in Sicily over time.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-06-13
    Posts
    15
    Points
    4,762
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,762, Level: 20
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 288
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    This may sound weird, but I'm surprised the I1 percentages in Sicily weren't higher. With the Viking and then Norman landings, I assumed I1 would be in the lower double digits near some of the ports. I think more I1 will be found in Sicily over time.
    Depends on the places. The Norman presence was not homogeneous in Sicily, like for any other ethnic group. Sicily is a patchwork. Catania, Ragusa, Agrigento to me seems not to be traditional Norman places in Sicily. Palermo area and some other areas could have much more I1.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-06-13
    Posts
    15
    Points
    4,762
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,762, Level: 20
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 288
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Italy



    From Di Gaetano, Cerutti, Crobu et alter (2009)

    I1-M253

    Caccamo (Pa) 18,75 %
    Trapani 9,09 %
    Alcamo (Tp) 8,33 %
    Piazza Armerina (En) 7,14 %

    I1b1b M26

    Caccamo (Pa) 6,25%
    Sciacca (Ag) 3,57 %
    Trapani 3,03 %

    I1b2a M223
    Caccamo (Pa) 6,25%

    I M170
    Alcamo 4,17%
    Trapani 3,03%


  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Nobody1's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-03-13
    Posts
    1,040
    Points
    5,756
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,756, Level: 22
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 294
    Overall activity: 34.0%


    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    This may sound weird, but I'm surprised the I1 percentages in Sicily weren't higher. With the Viking and then Norman landings, I assumed I1 would be in the lower double digits near some of the ports. I think more I1 will be found in Sicily over time.
    Look no further;

    DiGaetano et al 2009
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/

    West Sicily = 8.2% I1-M253
    ---
    East Sicily = 1.75% I1-M253
    ------

    Also Rootsi et al 2004 - found 8.8% Hg I (not specified sub-clades)
    http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/DNA...oupISpread.pdf

    Equally Capelli et al 2005 - 8.5% Hg I (not specified sub-clades)
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...09.00538.x/pdf

    Most of the samples [96 out of 141] from Boattini et al 2013 were from the East of Sicily; hence only 1.4% Hg I1

    Historically the Normans settled in the Western part of the Island, amongst the fiefdoms they conquered from the Saracens;
    Agrigento (the other 45 samples) declined in the Middle ages, so obv. not much Normannic resettlement;

    The East was granted to Lombard (Christian / Latin) settlers; hence 7.1% R1b U-152 -Boattini 2013

    R1a [M17] in Sicily is also interesting:
    5.7% -Boattini 2013 / 5.5% -DiGaetano 2009

    also to note of course:
    R1b-U106 = 5.6% -Boattini 2013

    majority from Catania which was an important Staufer Castle, during the
    Hohenstaufen (Swabian) Dynasty;

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-06-13
    Posts
    15
    Points
    4,762
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,762, Level: 20
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 288
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post

    Most of the samples [96 out of 141] from Boattini et al 2013 were from the East of Sicily; hence only 1.4% Hg I1

    Historically the Normans settled in the Western part of the Island, amongst the fiefdoms they conquered from the Saracens;
    Agrigento (the other 45 samples) declined in the Middle ages, so obv. not much Normannic resettlement;

    The East was granted to Lombard (Christian / Latin) settlers; hence 7.1% R1b U-152 -Boattini 2013

    R1a [M17] in Sicily is also interesting: 5.7% -Boattini 2013 / 5.5% -DiGaetano 2009
    Right, samples from Boattini et alter were from East, and South South-East Sicily.

    Lombards could be both R1b U-152, and R1a, IMHO. Also U-106, maybe. North-East and Central-East Sicily (Valdemone) were granted to Lombards, you're right again. And two communities not more existing near Palermo.

    Your reconstruction is right and proper (I'm by my paternal line a descendant of Lombards of Sicily).

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Nobody1's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-03-13
    Posts
    1,040
    Points
    5,756
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,756, Level: 22
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 294
    Overall activity: 34.0%


    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    Quote Originally Posted by agnieu View Post
    Right, samples from Boattini et alter were from East, and South South-East Sicily.

    Lombards could be both R1b U-152, and R1a, IMHO. Also U-106, maybe. North-East and Central-East Sicily (Valdemone) were granted to Lombards, you're right again. And two communities not more existing near Palermo.

    Your reconstruction is right and proper (I'm by my paternal line a descendant of Lombards of Sicily).
    Wow, Lombards from Sicily; thats impressive
    Ive read that you kept (in some comunes) the Old [Medieval] Gallo-Italic language for the last 1,000 years.

    U-106 i would think is more German (Swabian) Staufer period
    [i edited a bit about the Catania castle later on -post#6]
    R1a could also be Normannic, since R1a is significant in Norway;
    But im not familiar with sub-clades since all studies state the R1a in Sicily is M-17?
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results

    Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy [Boattini 2013 + other studies],
    on the other hand U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;

    My specification: U-152 = Lombards / U-106 = Swabians[Germans] / I1-M253 = Normans [pos. also R1a]

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-06-13
    Posts
    15
    Points
    4,762
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,762, Level: 20
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 288
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Wow, Lombards from Sicily; thats impressive
    Ive read that you kept (in some comunes) the Old [Medieval] Gallo-Italic language for the last 1,000 years.
    That's true. In some comunes (San Fratello, Sperlinga, Nicosia...) it's still spoken our language, every day. My paternal line comes from one of these. We call our pais Safrareu or San Frareau, Sicilians call it Santu Frateddu. We're very jealous of our identity. Other Sicilians call us sometimes, in a derogatory manner, the Frenchies. But We don't enjoy any legal protection, as it happens for other linguistic minorities in Italy. In Italy linguistic minorities are very protected, except us and the Tabarchini people, Ligurian settlers who live in Carloforte in Sardinia and They still think to be in Liguria.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-06-13
    Posts
    15
    Points
    4,762
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,762, Level: 20
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 288
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post

    U-106 i would think is more German (Swabian) Staufer period
    [i edited a bit about the Catania castle later on -post#6]
    R1a could also be Normannic, since R1a is significant in Norway;
    But im not familiar with sub-clades since all studies state the R1a in Sicily is M-17?
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results

    Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy [Boattini 2013 + other studies],
    on the other hand U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;

    My specification: U-152 = Lombards / U-106 = Swabians[Germans] / I1-M253 = Normans [pos. also R1a]
    Your specification seems fair. I have found on FTDNA a person from San Fratello (a true "gallo-italic" from San Fratello) that is U-106 and a person from Novara di Sicilia (another historical Lombard commune of Sicily) that is R1a. This is the reason why of my assumption about U-106 and R1a.

    I Have discussed here

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-DNA-in-Sicily

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points
    nordicquarreler's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-05-13
    Posts
    351
    Points
    5,638
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,638, Level: 22
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 412
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European mix
    Country: United States



    I've gone full-bore "Rainman" and have been researching the Scaliger and Ezellini lines. I plan to look into San Frareau next.

    Fantastic thread. Thanks to the contributors and Maciamo for starting this one...

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,073
    Points
    22,792
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    I've gone full-bore "Rainman" and have been researching the Scaliger and Ezellini lines. I plan to look into San Frareau next.

    Fantastic thread. Thanks to the contributors and Maciamo for starting this one...
    Are you trying to find germanic links with I1 in italy ?

    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da_Polenta

    da Polenta from Romagna region ........origins german ...........seek english text

    da Carrara from Padua ........origins tyrolese ( where tyrolese germans then ...unsure )

    Savorgnan from Udine .........origins austrian

    The only italian family from NEI I know is the Este family ................but I never really looked.

    What are you trying to prove? ...........Genetic markers belong to NO nationality..........we are all mongrel people in Europe and elsewhere

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points
    nordicquarreler's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-05-13
    Posts
    351
    Points
    5,638
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,638, Level: 22
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 412
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European mix
    Country: United States



    Not trying to prove anything Zanipolo. I agree we are mongrels.

    I1 is a relatively uncommon line so I like to read up on it wherever it pops up.

    **EDIT**
    Also trying to link up to my I1 "tribe". DNA Tribes result pointed to a previously unknown autosomal link to Italy (Tuscany region) so I'm following that. Recently tested negative for Z140 at FTDNA-- which was surprising-- so I'm back to square one.
    Last edited by nordicquarreler; 10-06-13 at 07:35.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,073
    Points
    22,792
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    Not trying to prove anything Zanipolo. I agree we are mongrels.

    I1 is a relatively uncommon line so I like to read up on it wherever it pops up.

    **EDIT**
    Also trying to link up to my I1 "tribe". DNA Tribes result pointed to a previously unknown link to Italy (Tuscany region) so I'm following that. Recently tested negative for Z140 at FTDNA-- which was surprising-- so I'm back to square one.
    so then, what subclade are you positive in ..........i.e the last one

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points
    nordicquarreler's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-05-13
    Posts
    351
    Points
    5,638
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,638, Level: 22
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 412
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European mix
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    so then, what subclade are you positive in ..........i.e the last one
    Unknown, only I1 at this point.

    **EDIT**
    To explain, I went for the Z140 test (which is pretty far downstream) because I found an almost identical surname line with a fairly close STR profile that was Z140 positive, so I was thinking that would make the most sense. Didn't pan out that way.

    The FTDNA site does offer names that are closest to your STR 37 profile, and one that is almost an exact match tested positive for P109 so might test for that SNP next.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,073
    Points
    22,792
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    Unknown, only I1 at this point.

    **EDIT**
    To explain, I went for the Z140 test (which is pretty far downstream) because I found an almost identical surname line with a fairly close STR profile that was Z140 positive, so I was thinking that would make the most sense. Didn't pan out that way.

    The FTDNA site does offer names that are closest to your STR 37 profile, and one that is almost an exact match tested positive for P109 so might test for that SNP next.
    use

    http://predictor.ydna.ru/

    it at least give you one subclade

    or athey site since you are I
    http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/

    or even
    http://members.bex.net/jtcullen515/HaploTest.htm

    made especially for I people

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points
    nordicquarreler's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-05-13
    Posts
    351
    Points
    5,638
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,638, Level: 22
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 412
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European mix
    Country: United States



    Took it:

    100% = I-M253 (doesn't really help because I knew that part)

    Then for subclades it says ND=40% and L22un1= 37% with everything else coming in at 5% or less. Does ND stand for not determined?

  18. #18
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,711
    Points
    702,755
    Level
    100
    Points: 702,755, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 19.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    This may sound weird, but I'm surprised the I1 percentages in Sicily weren't higher. With the Viking and then Norman landings, I assumed I1 would be in the lower double digits near some of the ports. I think more I1 will be found in Sicily over time.
    The Normans settled mostly around Palermo, in north-west Sicily. This study did not include samples from northern Sicily. This case demonstrates just how big variations can be from one city/province to the next.

  19. #19
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,711
    Points
    702,755
    Level
    100
    Points: 702,755, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 19.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    vicenza was the centre of 2 ruling "german" families. The Ezellini from augsburg bavaria and the scaliger from swabian lands.

    they brought many "german" austrian people to north italy.....most came in the March of Treviso

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaligeri

    The italians changed the name to la Scala family ( ladder ) but Scaliger is correct. their seat lay between verona and vicenza.
    The ezellini lived at Bassano which sits under Vicenza province.
    Good to know. Thanks.

    to conclude , we do not know if the goths, vandals etc brought this marker ..........let me know if you know more
    There is no reason to believe that any Germanic people lacked I1.

    I think that the four I1 samples from Campobasso is enough to prove that the Lombards had a remarkably high percentage of haplogroup I1. Among other Germanic haplogroups found in Campobasso were three R1b-U106 and one I2b1. The sample size is small, but judging from that, the Lombards appear to have had approximately 50% of I1, 37.5% of R1b, 12.5% of I2b1 and 0% of R1a. They originated in Scania, southern Sweden, where the haplogroup proportion is similar, except for the higher R1a and lower I2b1, as well as the presence of a minority of E, G, J and T which cannot be discerned from the native Italian one in Campobasso.

    The Ostrogoths were the first Germanic tribe to invade Italy and the only one who had control over the whole peninsula. Their capital was in Ravenna, Romagna. Ferri et al. 2007 tested 98 individuals from Rimini and 65 from Valmarecchia, both near Ravenna. They found respectively 4% and 3% of I1+I2b, and 1% and 1.5% of R1a. They didn't test R1b subclades.

    Some people on this forum have argued that the Goths were Slavic or at least a predominantly R1a tribe because of their Eastern European origins. Yet, all the places settled by the Visigoths (southern France + Iberia) and Ostrogoths (Italy) have more I1 (and R1b-S21) than R1a. This undeniably confirms the Scandinavian origins of the Goths.

    As for the Normans, the presence of Germanic lineages where they settled in northern Sicily is blatant (although some Germanic lineages in Sicily could also be attributed to the Vandals).

  20. #20
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,711
    Points
    702,755
    Level
    100
    Points: 702,755, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 19.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    majority from Catania which was an important Staufer Castle, during the
    Hohenstaufen (Swabian) Dynasty;
    That surely explains why Catania's Germanic lineages are mostly R1b-U106 (9.5% of the total in Catania in this study), just like L'Aquila's, but have very little I1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    My specification: U-152 = Lombards / U-106 = Swabians[Germans] / I1-M253 = Normans [pos. also R1a]
    I usually agree with what you write, but how on earth would you think that U152 is of Germanic origin (and Swedish at that), while it is almost absent from Scandinavia !?

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-06-13
    Posts
    15
    Points
    4,762
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,762, Level: 20
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 288
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    I usually agree with what you write, but how on earth would you think that U152 is of Germanic origin (and Swedish at that), while it is almost absent from Scandinavia !?
    I think that he is referring to Lombards from North-West Italy, because in medieval ages Lombard was an ethnonym, derived from Germanic Longobards, used to indicate all the people from Northern-Western Italy (today Piedmont, Lombardy, Liguria, Emilia).

    What kind of haplogroups do the Germanic Lombards-Longobards could have?

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,073
    Points
    22,792
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I think that the four I1 samples from Campobasso is enough to prove that the Lombards had a remarkably high percentage of haplogroup I1. Among other Germanic haplogroups found in Campobasso were three R1b-U106 and one I2b1. The sample size is small, but judging from that, the Lombards appear to have had approximately 50% of I1, 37.5% of R1b, 12.5% of I2b1 and 0% of R1a. They originated in Scania, southern Sweden, where the haplogroup proportion is similar, except for the higher R1a and lower I2b1, as well as the presence of a minority of E, G, J and T which cannot be discerned from the native Italian one in Campobasso.
    IIRC the lombards are reffered to west germanic now , instead of east germanic due to linguistics. So these would be west german markers



    Some people on this forum have argued that the Goths were Slavic or at least a predominantly R1a tribe because of their Eastern European origins. Yet, all the places settled by the Visigoths (southern France + Iberia) and Ostrogoths (Italy) have more I1 (and R1b-S21) than R1a. This undeniably confirms the Scandinavian origins of the Goths.
    I believe the goths are baltic people originally, living between the Elbe river and samogitia as stated by ancient historians. They learnt germanic over time as neighbours of the suebi and vandili peoples ( most likely because of trade ).
    They had the I1 marker plus R1a . The R1a gothic graves on the lower vistula river have never been found in scandinavia. There is continental I1 in old east germanic lands.
    The ancient never called goths , germani ...or... never called germani , goths. 2 different people, 2 different cultures

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Nobody1's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-03-13
    Posts
    1,040
    Points
    5,756
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,756, Level: 22
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 294
    Overall activity: 34.0%


    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I usually agree with what you write, but how on earth would you think that U152 is of Germanic origin (and Swedish at that), while it is almost absent from Scandinavia !?
    No,
    not the Germanic Langobarden from the Migration era;

    This is strictly Medieval, - Lombards as in North Italians from Medieval Lombardy
    [fiefdom of Holy Roman Empire]

    This [Medieval] Region -


    Roger I of Hauteville
    married Adelaide del Vasto and granted
    Lombard [Christians / Latins] settlers {from Medieval Lombardy} to settle in Eastern Sicily


    post# 6 -
    The East was granted to Lombard (Christian / Latin) settlers; hence 7.1% R1b U-152 -Boattini 2013

    post# 8 -
    Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy [Boattini 2013 + other studies],
    on the other hand U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;


    Thats my connection and logic; U-152 = Lombards {from Lombardy

    ---

    The Medieval Lombards were always allies of the Normannic south; from the beginning of their conquest against the Byzantines; - Battle of Montemaggiore / Battle of Olivento

    Ioannes Skylitzes - 11th cen. Byzantine
    Michael was defeated and lost the better part of his army, he shamefully taking refuge in Cannae. Crippled like this he was none the wiser for his wound.....took back into battle his defeated forces together with the Pisidians and Lycaonians who make up the unit of the foederati and fell on the enemy at a place called Horai. Again he was severely defeated by the Franks who had now allied with themselves a considerable host of Italians living around the river Po and in the foothills of the Alps.

    The Lombards of Sicily;

    Prof. Will Seymour Monroe - Spell of Sicily: The Garden of the Mediterranean (1909)
    The Lombards have also retained a degree of their original purity. They accompanied Adelaide of Montferrat, wife of Roger I, to Sicily and colonized at San Fratello, Nicosia, Randazzo, Sperligna, Capizzi, and elsewhere. They are tall, broad-shouldered, and fair, and more enterprising than most of the other inhabitants. Because of their keen monetary sense they are sometimes nicknamed "Sicilian Jews". The Lombard dialect is still spoken among them.

    William Harrison De Puy - The Encyclopædia Britannica: Vol.XXII (1893)
    In Sicily there were many nations all protected by the Sicilian king ; but there was no Sicilian nation.
    Greek, Saracen, Norman, Lombard, and Jew could not be fused into one people; it was the boast of Sicily that each kept his laws and tongue undisturbed. Such a state of things could live on only under an enlightened despotism; the discordant elements could not join to work out really free and national 'institutions.


    William Agnew Paton - Picturesque Sicily (1897)
    The latter curious town, situated high in the mountains, is inhabited by a people who speak a Lombard dialect, which testifies to their descent from the mercenaries who accompanied Roger in his first Sicilian campaign.


    ~1000 years later the Lombards still speak their Gallo-Italic language in Sicily;

  24. #24
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,711
    Points
    702,755
    Level
    100
    Points: 702,755, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 19.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I believe the goths are baltic people originally, living between the Elbe river and samogitia as stated by ancient historians. They learnt germanic over time as neighbours of the suebi and vandili peoples ( most likely because of trade ).
    They had the I1 marker plus R1a . The R1a gothic graves on the lower vistula river have never been found in scandinavia. There is continental I1 in old east germanic lands.
    The ancient never called goths , germani ...or... never called germani , goths. 2 different people, 2 different cultures
    If they were Baltic they would have a considerable percentage of N1c1 lineages. Where are these in Italy and Iberia ?

  25. #25
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,711
    Points
    702,755
    Level
    100
    Points: 702,755, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 19.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    No,
    not the Germanic Langobarden from the Migration era;

    This is strictly Medieval, - Lombards as in North Italians from Medieval Lombardy
    [fiefdom of Holy Roman Empire]

    ...

    ~1000 years later the Lombards still speak their Gallo-Italic language in Sicily;
    Ok, that makes sense now.

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •