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Thread: Are Vikings overrated?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    But arent those genetic testings based on two Russian brothers (of nobility) that simply claim direct descent/lineage from Rurik? The way i understood it is that their Y-DNA Hg is thus taken as representative for Rurik and the Varangians/Rus'; Now i seriously have my doubts whether these brothers are actual (let alone direct) descendants of Rurik to begin with; Data from actual Varangians/Rus' need to be obtained for a proper picture;
    According to some historical writings,some Rurik descendant was having hundreds of lovers,spread in Russia.
    So they say Rurik was some branch of N1,Scandinavian branch.
    If he was having so many lovers,how come this Scandinavian branch is not more often found in Russia paternal lines?
    I suppose most of the Rus Scandinavians were having many women,so I think their paternal lines should be quite present,in today Russians.
    I have seen some K36 results of a Russian and he was having about 20% FenoScandian admixture.
    Maybe is not only from Rus Scandinavians is also from mixing of Slavs with Feno-Ugrian people.
    Anyway,I think that the influence of Vikings in UK is largely over-rated,from how most UK people are looking,they do not have strong Viking
    genetics. Normans are said to have been mostly Vikings,but who knows if they were not mostly French people?
    If Vikings were such great warriors,how come they could not conquer Ireland and Scotland?
    The paternal lines in Ireland are showing few Viking paternal lines,maybe maximum 10% of these are of Viking ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I'm going to once more commit the cardinal sin of using Wikipedia as a reference, simply because the passage I'm going to quote accords with what I've read on the subject and I can't be bothered to comb through my own library or go to the university library to look for a suitable quote from a more credible source. But, basically, the Swedes who travelled afar to trade and raid were vikings.

    "The Swedish Viking Age lasted roughly between the 8th and 11th centuries. It is believed that Swedish Vikings and Gutar mainly travelled east and south, going to Finland, the Baltic countries, Russia, Belarus,Ukraine, the Black Sea and further as far as Baghdad. Their routes passed through the Dnieper south to Constantinople, on which they carried out numerous raids. The Byzantine Emperor Theophilos noticed their great skills in war, and invited them to serve as his personal bodyguard, known as the Varangian Guard. The Swedish Vikings, called Rus are believed to be the founding fathers of Kievan Rus'. The Arab traveller Ibn Fadlan described these Vikings as follows:
    I have seen the Rus as they came on their merchant journeys and encamped by the Itil. I have never seen more perfect physical specimens, tall as date palms, blond and ruddy; they wear neither tunics nor caftans, but the men wear a garment which covers one side of the body and leaves a hand free. Each man has an axe, a sword, and a knife, and keeps each by him at all times. The swords are broad and grooved, of Frankish sort.[25]
    The adventures of these Swedish Vikings are commemorated on many runestones in Sweden, such as the Greece Runestones and the Varangian Runestones. There was also considerable participation in expeditions westwards, which are commemorated on stones such as the England Runestones. The last major Swedish Viking expedition appears to have been the ill-fated expedition of Ingvar the Far-Travelledto Serkland, the region south-east of the Caspian Sea. Its members are commemorated on the Ingvar Runestones, none of which mentions any survivor. What happened to the crew is unknown, but it is believed that they died of sickness.
    All this is no more than BS. No one Scandinavian drakkar was ever found in Russia. From genetic point of view the stories about Sweden Vikings travelling by Russian rivers and establishing the first Russian state look absolutely unconvincing since typical Scandinavian clades of Y-dna practically absent in Russia.
    Furthermore, the viking was not exclusive Scandinavian lifestyle it was all Baltic phenomenon. Vikings from Southern Baltic for example raided Sweden and Finland. So when we talk about vikings we should take into account that they could originate from any part of Baltic sea shore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    All this is no more than BS. No one Scandinavian drakkar was ever found in Russia. From genetic point of view the stories about Sweden Vikings travelling by Russian rivers and establishing the first Russian state look absolutely unconvincing since typical Scandinavian clades of Y-dna practically absent in Russia.
    Furthermore, the viking was not exclusive Scandinavian lifestyle it was all Baltic phenomenon. Vikings from Southern Baltic for example raided Sweden and Finland. So when we talk about vikings we should take into account that they could originate from any part of Baltic sea shore.
    There are archeological discoveries related to Scandinavians in Russia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    There are archeological discoveries related to Scandinavians in Russia.
    And what? There was extensive trade between Northern Russian regions and Scandinavia so no wonder that some Scandinavian stuff was found in Northern Russia as well as typical Slavic stuff was found in Finland and Sweden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    And what? There was extensive trade between Northern Russian regions and Scandinavia so no wonder that some Scandinavian stuff was found in Northern Russia as well as typical Slavic stuff was found in Finland and Sweden.
    There is significant,if not lots of FenoScandian admixture in average Russian.
    On k36 results,average Russian scores as much FenoScandian admixture,as average South Swede.
    How can you explain that?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    All this is no more than BS. No one Scandinavian drakkar was ever found in Russia. From genetic point of view the stories about Sweden Vikings travelling by Russian rivers and establishing the first Russian state look absolutely unconvincing since typical Scandinavian clades of Y-dna practically absent in Russia.
    Furthermore, the viking was not exclusive Scandinavian lifestyle it was all Baltic phenomenon. Vikings from Southern Baltic for example raided Sweden and Finland. So when we talk about vikings we should take into account that they could originate from any part of Baltic sea shore.
    No. The word "viking" specifically refers to Scandinavians, regardless of what the Balts were doing. And there's a lot of evidence of the role Scandinavians played in helping to shape early Russian history. But if you want to write your own version of history, I can't be bothered arguing with you.

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    Britains DNA (autosomals mad?) estimation


    Orkney Shetland 29% / W-Caithness InnerHebrides 10% / Hebrides (isles) 11% / E-Caithness 18% / N-E(Grampians) 5% / Argyle W-Highlands 6% / Central Scotland 2% SWScotland+Borders 3% SE Scotland+Borders 3% / Man 12% / North England+ Lancashire 4% / Yorkshire 6% / West England Midlands 3% /Lincoln-E-Anglia 4% / SE England 2% / SW England 2% (Cornwall drownin it) / Wales 1% / Munster 1% / Leinster 1% / Connaught 1% / Ulster1%


    surprise with Ireland!

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    Vikings ravaged trough Western Europeans like hot knife trough butter.


    I think they are bit overated tho, because they were actually not legendary warriors as described in various modern legends, but raiders and pirates, who picked easy targets

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barantes View Post
    Let me begin with this, I don't mean to offend anyone this is just a question I am curious about. There are many who feel that the Viking age has been over-romanticized and they are in fact not as fierce of warriors as many would make them out to be. I am just curious about your opinions on the matter, you can state whether you feel they are or they aren't. Giving reasons to back your answers would also be appreciated.
    Good question.

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    Vikings


    Overrated ? Not sure –over-romanticized ? Sure !
    Some points to consider : thefirst Northmen (Vikings) are not to be confused with the laterNorman(d)s – three-four centuries separate them, with the followingresults : intermarriages with natives, noble people or not –incorporation in the feudal system, far enough from the firstscandinavian model which was more egalitarian and clanic in the sametime – less hazard, more calculations in prospections -
    to come back to the first Vikings, theyprofited at first of the surprise effect, it is sure – but evenlater when Europeans « states » were aware of theirdangerousness, they remained fearce warriors and took the strong sideupon well trained armies – surely their mobility gave them someadvantage over the heavy armies of the time but...
    they colonized Iceland, the Greenland,the Feroe's, they raided and submitted the Ireland and Britaincoasts, they (at least the Danes ones) obliged the Anglo-Saxonskingdoms to pay them the 'danegeld' and in the 9° century theyobliged too the Frank king and the Breton duke Nominoe to pay this'danegeld' more than a time, they pushed the Breton gentry and clergyto flee off two times during the 10° century, even if finally theywere swept off two times too by these Bretons, these ones sometimeshelped by Saxon troops (before that some Viking traitors had alreadyhelped Breton chiefs) - their internal political problems inScandinavia also played a part here – during the 9° century, notonly they raided the Western Isles and the Atlantic regions, but theyimposed themselves all over the North Sea shores, in the Netherlands,in Germany, in Belgium, without speak about the South baltic coasts –if Brittany and England escaped the definitive shame, France kingdomleft them the territory of Normandy in the beginning of the 10°century -
    we cannot desprise the Vikings weightin battles nor their militar worth : they could sometimes preset500 ships (one of their chiefs, Weland, payed by Charles le Chauvein 860, could gather 200 ships under his orders) – but it isnot their number only which gave them power : they obtained'danegeld' sometimes even against more numerous armies –more than a time they were defeated by Europeans helped by otherViking mercenaries or defeated by famine and plague – atthese times, if they would have been completely united, they wouldhave been harder enemies yet... they were not afraid by raids intomainland, far from the seeshores : they raided Burgundy too !
    Soo, do not under-estimate the Vikingfactor in Europe destiny at these times -
    the later 'Norman(d)s' were partlyassimilited people, crossed as genetically as culturally – theWilliam the Bastard troops of 1066 (England conquest) were full orBretons little noblemen (1/3! one of them, Alan, ancestor of theStuart family) and Pickards and Flemings ! For a long time yetFrance Normands and Bretons had some inequal relations the ones with the others – after his conquest, William had done a stage back inNormandy (Barfleur?), having send a man to collect songs from a 'redlady', a breton female singer (« bardess »?) -


    concerning genetic traces :
    three aspects : Y HGs, mt HGs andautosomals : I gave you the Britain DNA results (autosomals)which make sense for me as a whole, the only surprise being the verylow level (1%) among all the irish regions(even supposed Viking names as Doyle (Dougall) are born by Y-R1b-L21males if I remind well) – in Scotland and England and Wales theresults seem very sensible –
    possibleexplanation : it is sometimes very difficult to weight therespective importance of purely « scandinavian » genes infront of the « north-germanic » genes and even some« celtic » ones ! But in Ireland the germanic geneswere surely very very scarce – what seems more evident is that inIreland, the Norwegian Vikings did not send many scandinavian femalesand took the celt ones – in Scotland we see big discrepancyaccording to subregions : Orkney-Shetland and Caithness areconsidered as equilibrated males-females Vikings colonizations whenHebrides and N-W Highlands, and Iceland too in a less marked way, areconsidered as dominantly male biased colonizations – Caithness andOrkney seem less « viking » than the Hebrides concerningmales markers, but for autosomals Orkney is more « viking »,and Caithness is almost the same as the Hebrides, spite the « male »differences -
    anddo'nt forget some Gaels took the Viking way of life aftersometimes – the clans of NWScotland were very often founded by Scandinavians males ;whatever the gaelic form of the most of their names: MacDonald(McDonell), MacDougall (McDowell), MacLeod, MacQueen(McSwan/McSweyn), Macaulay (McCauley) (Ollason in Orkney/Shetland),Gunn, Lamont (Lamond/Lamondson), MacLachlan, Sutherland (linked toancestors of Murray's) – all the way all these male Vikingsdescendants took the gaelic language in place of their germanic(norse) one, confirming the female celtic weight, except theOrkney-Shetland ones -


    concerningEngland I red (againand again and... boring)that English people cannot have Viking blood because they seem toofar from the nordic model : here again we confuse Anglo-Saxonsof the old time with « Brits » citizens of today, weforget that Anglo-Saxons and Frisians were physically close toancient Scandinavians, and we forget that not long agothe far North and very Eastern English people were very more'nordic'like than today : only 50 years ago, the fishers andpeasants of these old germanic lands of England were taller, blonder,and spite variated, more on the model of Dutch or Scandinavian peoplethan were big towns English people, these last ones a mix of all thepre- and historic populations of the isles (I don't speak here ofCornwall or Wales which are farther yet from the model!) -
    Iknow a bit about this stuff ! I saw the growing of the « celt »physical influence upon English people in the industrial regions ofBritain : Irish people born numerous families, the density ofscottish, irish, welsh names (these ones not always easilyrecognizable it is true: Jones, Williams, Davies, Thomas and Co)grew in % during these 50 last years – I don't speak about the morerecent immigrations from everywhere, even if we discard Pakistaneseor other dark skinned people
    timepasses by and populations change : but we have to respecthistory – the very light impact of scandinavian genes (even malemarkers) among Russian of Today doesn't disprove the part of swedeVarangians in old times – and as I'm speaking about « scandinavianphysical model » (an ancient stable and peculiar mix) I cantell you the today Malmö inhabitants are no more the same mixture asin recent past andso some gifted and auto-inspired spirits could say today that Vikingswere not Vikings and why not, never existed !Too much people are rewriting History, everyday ! Do let that topoliticians, please ! We can improve History veracity, OK, it 'snot making new fairy tales after being crashed the wholework done before -




    Balticor Slavic Vikings : what weight and where did they « worked » ?What sources, too ?

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    VIKINGS

    3 thinks for all to reconsider, and 2 are written here,

    1rst, When a warrior died, they 'force' women to follow him,

    2nd When Byzantines and West Europeans follow or hide in Abbeys and monasteries, hoping to a peacefull life in the 'hug' of church, and afraid 'hell' more than death, vikings were Free, of all these,
    they did not fear death and hell, their death destiny was Wallhala, think of that, at battle of Majikert estimated that orthodox monasteries were overcrowded, hundrends thousands went to avoid join the army, which was a life time (from 15-16 to 45-50).

    3rd Gold and women, being out of christian rules, they could easily raid and fight so to buy wine and women back home.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    "There are archeological discoveries related to Scandinavians in Russia."

    Not at all... There was not found 1 single "Viking" grave in Russia. Even more, Swedish language contains at least 300 Slavic words that i've counted so far which aren't of "germanic origin".

    Vikings were Swedish Jarls and have nothing to do with Slavic Russian Variags or Vagrians. Vagrians were a Slavic tribe which originated from current Poland and Germany. Their capital city was called Stargard (according to Adam von Bremen) or Stargrad ("Old city"). Gard was old name for Grad ("city") . After their unification with Russians they've moved their capital city to Novgorod, which means "New city". And yes the Vikings are overrated.
    Last edited by Vedun; 22-07-14 at 23:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vedun View Post
    "There are archeological discoveries related to Scandinavians in Russia."

    Not at all... There was not found 1 single "Viking" grave in Russia. Even more, Swedish language contains at least 300 Slavic words that i've counted so far which aren't of "germanic origin".

    Vikings were Swedish Jarls and have nothing to do with Slavic Russian Variags or Vagrians. Vagrians were a Slavic tribe which originated from current Poland and Germany. Their capital city was called Stargard (according to Adam von Bremen) or Stargrad. Gard was old name for Grad ("city") . After their unification with Russians they've moved their capital city to Novgorod, which means "New city". And yes the Vikings are overrated.
    Stargard is today's Oldenburg / Holstein (=old castle, same name, one time the Slavic, the other time the Low German version). There is a nice museum about the excavations, maybe you should visit it. The oldest city wall dates to the early 7th century, when Slavs had not yet arrived in the area (guess why they called it "old"). It was neither Viking nor Varangian, but a typical West Baltic trading town with a mixed Slavic-Saxon-Danish-Swedish population, similar to Liubice (Old Lübeck), Reric (near Wismar) or Wolin. There are dozens of Stargard / Stargrads along the Baltic coast and its hinterland, none of them is related to Novgorod. That "new town" replaced the nearby Varangian settlement of Old Ladoga.

    The Vikings were mythicized by early medieval Frankish scholars, who built them up as "evil pagans" to justify war against Saxons and, later on, Danes and West Slavs. During the last years, a major excavation was carried out in downtown Hamburg, at the supposed place of the first settlement. They especially looked for evidence of the 845 Viking raid. Guess what they found - a lot of settlement traces going back at least to the early 8th century, but no signs of violent destruction (no ash horizon etc.) during the 9th century. The same holds true for Cologne (also a reported target of Viking raids during the 9th century) - and believe me, there is hardly a city in Germany that has been as diligently screened by archaeologists as Cologne. I don't know about the situation in Paris, which according to Frankish chronicles was raided as well - maybe there is some truth in it (after all, the Vikings settled in Normandy to develop into Normans), but for Germany, most of what medieval sources tell about the Vikings doesn't match the archaeological record.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vedun View Post
    "There are archeological discoveries related to Scandinavians in Russia."

    Not at all... There was not found 1 single "Viking" grave in Russia. Even more, Swedish language contains at least 300 Slavic words that i've counted so far which aren't of "germanic origin".

    Vikings were Swedish Jarls and have nothing to do with Slavic Russian Variags or Vagrians. Vagrians were a Slavic tribe which originated from current Poland and Germany. Their capital city was called Stargard (according to Adam von Bremen) or Stargrad. Gard was old name for Grad ("city") . After their unification with Russians they've moved their capital city to Novgorod, which means "New city". And yes the Vikings are overrated.
    in early 20th century in Crimea some still spoke Gothic, that means that either Getae and Goths are the same, either Guts habbited Crimea.

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    So? There were Turks who lived in Greece and Cyprus even in 1. century AD and before and spoke Turkish language. The world was much more diverse than you think...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vedun View Post
    So? There were Turks who lived in Greece and Cyprus even in 1. century AD and before and spoke Turkish language. The world was much more diverse than you think...
    although this is not an answer, yet Yes there could be turks, if we find linguistic or archaiology's evidence.

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    Vedun:
    could you, please, give us a list of these 300 slavic words in scandinavian languages without link with continental germanic? It would be very interested


    NFrank:
    I appreciate your love of precision anddocumentation-
    just some points :
    « mythicized « ?Perhaps... But not only Frankish scholars but Breton monks toodescribed the fear the Vikings spred in western Europe... theprotection against these pirates was part of the prayers at that time- For Normandy, it is a very good « leg » to pirates madeby a powerful king so... all the way Vikings norse gave usplacenames in Normandy and people surnames too, even in farnorth-eastern Brittany – it's history, not myth- concerningCologne/Köln I don't know and trust your lectures, all the way,Cologne (a celtic name, I think) is far from the northern shores ofGermany-
    for physical anthropology, the 19th Cymaritime or rural population of Schlesvig-Holstein showed yetstatistical differences between the most maritime compared to mostinland ones, the first ones being more dolichocephalic and higherstatured, in short more 'nordiclike' (whatever the sense we put itit) – some « old » scholars attributed that to a Vikinginfluence : I have no archeology nor history record on thispossibility – it could have other (ancient and modern reasons), itis true so...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Vedun:
    could you, please, give us a list of these 300 slavic words in scandinavian languages without link with continental germanic? It would be very interested


    NFrank:
    I appreciate your love of precision anddocumentation-
    just some points :
    « mythicized « ?Perhaps... But not only Frankish scholars but Breton monks toodescribed the fear the Vikings spred in western Europe... theprotection against these pirates was part of the prayers at that time- For Normandy, it is a very good « leg » to pirates madeby a powerful king so... all the way Vikings norse gave usplacenames in Normandy and people surnames too, even in farnorth-eastern Brittany – it's history, not myth- concerningCologne/Köln I don't know and trust your lectures, all the way,Cologne (a celtic name, I think) is far from the northern shores ofGermany-
    for physical anthropology, the 19th Cymaritime or rural population of Schlesvig-Holstein showed yetstatistical differences between the most maritime compared to mostinland ones, the first ones being more dolichocephalic and higherstatured, in short more 'nordiclike' (whatever the sense we put itit) – some « old » scholars attributed that to a Vikinginfluence : I have no archeology nor history record on thispossibility – it could have other (ancient and modern reasons), itis true so...
    I don't doubt that Normans settled in the Normandy, and Danes of course also collected the Danegeld in England. But the latter, I believe, wasn't extraordinary - collecting tribute was quite common practice since antiquity.
    The interesting thing is that Viking expansions into the North Sea, the Atlantic and the Mediterranean correspond to periods when there was shortage of supply of Arab silver to the Baltic Sea region. The economic base of the Vikings / Varangians was trade via Novgorod and the Kiev Rus (along the Volga and Dnieper rivers) with the Eastern Mediterranean, the Arab Caliphates, also the western end points of the Silk Road (and the Hanseatic League, after several wars with Denmark, later stepped into that business). Occasionally, you had some Tartars, Magyars etc. temporarily cutting of that trade link, and in those periods the Vikings turned westwards. When the Golden Horde finally closed the eastern trade route, the Normans re-oriented towards the Mediterranean and conquered Sicily as their new hub for trade with the orient.
    Of course, when the first Viking pioneers started to look for alternative routes, they made the experience that their merchandise (amber, fur, honey, blonde hair etc.) wasn't nearly as popular along the Atlantic as in the Middle East. Seafaring makes hungry, and the wife at home expects some gold and silver, so what do you do? Robbing and looting. Not the nicest behaviour, but also not really extraordinary (->Crusaders, Arab & Barbary pirates, Venice, Sir Francis Drake, etc.)

    As to Cologne, you really disappoint me. Colonia Claudia Ara Augusta Aggripinensium is of course a Roman name. Empress Agrippina honoured her home town and in 50 AD had it elevated to the provincial capital of Germania Inferior. Before, it was known as oppidum ubiorum. The Ubii, federates of Caesar, had been resettled by him from the right to the left bank of the Rhine to protect them from incursions by the Chatti (Hessians), and to repopulate the former terrain of the Celtic Eburones after their failed revolt in 54 BC. While Caesar lists the Ubii as Germanic, they had a number of Celtic cultural features, including minting own coins according to Gallo-Celtic standards (photo below). The former capital of the Eburones, Bonn (bona), however, has a Celtic name, as has Vindobona (Vienna).
    Cologne isn't further away from the coast than Paris, and it isn't that difficult to get there by boat up the Rhine.


    Along the west coast of Schleswig-Holstein, you primarily find Frisians. The North Frisians are believed to have immigrated from the Ems area around the 8th century. Further south, and along the banks of the Lower Elbe, the lands are quite flood prone and were hardly settled during the early medieval. Well, whom do you call in when it comes to building dykes and draining wetlands? Of course, the Dutch (or better- the coastal Dutch, i.e. the West Frisians) - they colonised the area during the High Medieval. Place names like Hollern, Hollenstedt, or "Altes Land" (<Hol-land) still testify that colonisation. Further inland was traditional Angles (Schleswig) and Saxon (Holstein) land, and East Holstein was Slavic until the 12th century, and then colonised by Saxons, Westphalians and Flemish.
    The Frisians (West, East and North) were legendary pirates during the middle ages, and sailed to all parts of the world from the 16th century on, so we may have some kind of shared Viking-Frisian tradition here. There is surely also genetic linkage (yDNA I, etc.) but I suppose that linkage is much more ancient, and can't be attributed to the Vikings.

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    Vikings were pretty badass and taught the Celts a lesson, they would never forget.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinnie View Post
    Vikings were pretty badass and taught the Celts a lesson, they would never forget.
    Are you referring to what happened at the Battle of Clontarf?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Are you referring to what happened at the Battle of Clontarf?
    No I'm not talking about alliances with Kelts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinnie View Post
    No I'm not talking about alliances with Kelts.
    I don't understand your comment. The Battle of Clontarf was not about an alliance between Vikings and Celts. It was a battle in which the Irish kicked the crap out of the Vikings and ended their influence in Ireland. I was just asking whether that was an example of what you said previously about the Vikings being "badass" and teaching the Celts a lesson they'd never forget. The actual historical events weren't quite as one sided as you seem to imagine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I don't understand your comment. The Battle of Clontarf was not about an alliance between Vikings and Celts. It was a battle in which the Irish kicked the crap out of the Vikings and ended their influence in Ireland. I was just asking whether that was an example of what you said previously about the Vikings being "badass" and teaching the Celts a lesson they'd never forget. The actual historical events weren't quite as one sided as you seem to imagine.
    The Battle of Clontarf (Irish: Cath Chluain Tarbh) was a battle that took place on 23 April 1014 at Clontarf, near Dublin, on the east coast of Ireland. It pitted the forces of Brian Boru, high king of Ireland, against a Viking-Irish alliance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinnie View Post
    The Battle of Clontarf (Irish: Cath Chluain Tarbh) was a battle that took place on 23 April 1014 at Clontarf, near Dublin, on the east coast of Ireland. It pitted the forces of Brian Boru, high king of Ireland, against a Viking-Irish alliance.
    So it seems you're admitting that, even with the help of some renegade Irishmen, the Vikings were no match for the Celts.

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    If that was the case the Vikings did't not rule Dublin and parts of Ireland for an extended period..

    The Vikings conducted extensive raids in Ireland at first they founded Limerick in 812, then established a settlement near Waterford in 853, invaded Dublin and maintained control until 1169.

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