Where did haplogroup T first originate

[John123]

It would seem thomas Jefferson was also a T1a1a3; today it is found most highly in Egyptians. It is probably of pre-Phoenician NEOLITHIC origin in Europe, having arrived some 5,000-10,000 years ago, according to a y-dna T expert.

[John123]

T1a1a3 cluster
Pavia, Lombardia
Pavia, Lombardia
Mozabites, Ghardaia (Algeria)
Funchal, Madeira
Keghi, Turkey (Armenians) surname Mirakian
Aragón (Northeast Iberia)
Easingwold, North Yorkshire (Walker Grice surname) England
Eduardo Henriquez, Cuba (Canary islands)
Asturias (Northwest Iberia)
Galicia (Northwest Iberia)
Zoiliano Soto, Puerto Rico (origin: Fes, Morocco)
Azar Choukroun (Fes, Morocco)
Noord-Brabant, Netherlands
Saudi Arabia
Central Portugal
Assiut, Southern Egyptian
Assiut, Southern Egyptian
Saudi Arabia
North Lebanon, Sunnite Muslim
Lebanon
Dublin, Ireland (Crump surname)
Bridlington, East Riding of Yorkshire (Kidd surname) England
Jefferson (sunrame) England
Jefferson (sunrame) England
Jefferson (sunrame) England
Essenheim, Germany ( surname Fishel )
Cork, Munster, Ireland (Duke surname)
Funchal, Madeira ( Surname Gomes de Faria )
surname Cariri do Nascimento
German Stilfs (South Tyrol)
Dubai
Campania
Keghi, Turkey (Armenians) surname Oolovgian

[John123]

Iraqw, (Tanzania)
Iraqw, (Tanzania)
south-central italian
south-central italian
Iraqw, Tanzania
Iraqw, Tanzania
Palestinian Muslim Arab
Palestinian Cristian Arab

[John123]

I find it strange that there is 14% T in Antalya, in the ancient Phoenician Turkish province of Finike, which would then come to be know "Lycia". Assiut, a city from which there are many T1a1a3 haplotypes was once known as "lycopolis" "lyco" or "Lycaon", in my opinion due to Phoenician presence in this region. The positionment of these T1a1a3 haplotypes to me, is in synch with Phoenician Mediterranean presence.

[John123]

I've joined a "represent T group" XD there is me, a Palestinian, west Iranian, Druze, Iraqi, a Hungarian, Algerian, Cypriot, Kuwaiti, more Turks, Sicilians, southern Italians than I can account for, a few African fellows, englishmen, a Georgian, a German, some people from the Latin American world; interesting.

[John123]

I've been speaking with a T Somalian man,he is telling me the isaaq, Darod, basically all Horn of Africa clans high in T descend from Hashemites of the Quraysh tribe of the central Red Sea coast region of Saudi Arabia (coastal Hejaz). Same for the Madagascar tribes having stories of origins from Mecca (Quraysh home). The Hashemites/Quraysh ironically expanded into Jordan and Iraq most notably. This aligns very well with the ftdna samples, of which many are men of Saudi Arabian descent, MEMBERS of the Quraysh tribe and Banu Hashim men as well, from Iraq to Somalia.

[Sile]

I've been speaking with a T Somalian man,he is telling me the isaaq, Darod, basically all Horn of Africa clans high in T descend from Hashemites of the Quraysh tribe of the central Red Sea coast region of Saudi Arabia (coastal Hejaz). Same for the Madagascar tribes having stories of origins from Mecca (Quraysh home). The Hashemites/Quraysh ironically expanded into Jordan and Iraq most notably. This aligns very well with the ftdna samples, of which many are men of Saudi Arabian descent, MEMBERS of the Quraysh tribe and Banu Hashim men as well, from Iraq to Somalia.

you do know that T-L131 is 3300 years older than T-P77 as per mendez papers, with this, and also info that L131 is older and we already know its more Northern than P77 we can conclude that the Mesopotamian, Arabian and African T of these areas are "newer"

older than L131 and P77 is PS21 and that is 3100 years older than L131...and PS21 originates in assyrian and north of assyrian lands....................did'nt you read Mendez paper...its the main paper for T

[John123]

What can be found "north of Assyrian lands"? The oldest T haplotypes were seen in levant and Iran at 20,000 years I believe, where did it originate in your opinion?

[Sile]

What can be found "north of Assyrian lands"? The oldest T haplotypes were seen in levant and Iran at 20,000 years I believe, where did it originate in your opinion?

We also estimated the TMRCA of different branches of the tree (T, T1,
T1a, T1a2, and T1b) using a parametric (BATWING) and a nonparametric (Td)
method. Based on Td and 17 Y-STRs, the estimates for the TMRCAs of the
haplogroups defined by M70, PS21, L131, and P77 are 16.9 Ky, 14.0 Ky, 10.9
Ky, and 7.6 Ky, respectively (Table 2). We did not estimate the TMRCA of the
entire T haplogroup using this method because the asymmetry caused by the
presence of only a single M184* chromosome would likely lead to an
underestimation of the age of M184.

M70 = 16.9
PS21 = 14.0
L131 = 10.9
P77 = 7.6

M184 = over 20000

P326 which is shared between L and T is 46000

what are you asking?

I said PS21 is assyrian and north of assyria...could be more assyrian, ..........check your history books who was there

[John123]

Armenians I guess? So PS21 originated somewhere near northern Iraq/Armenia. T-M70+ I guess Iran? T is pretty diverse in both the levant and Iran, a few studies indicate even higher diversity in the levant than for Iran.

[Sile]

Armenians I guess? So PS21 originated somewhere near northern Iraq/Armenia. T-M70+ I guess Iran? T is pretty diverse in both the levant and Iran, a few studies indicate even higher diversity in the levant than for Iran.

I was just thinking, have you looked into , if you could be of CHALDEAN stock, they are Mesopotamian and later moved to Phoenicia ( lebanon). Many went to Spain and Italy as the majority are catholics/christians in faith

[sparkey]

I was just thinking, have you looked into , if you could be of CHALDEAN stock, they are Mesopotamian and later moved to Phoenicia ( lebanon). Many went to Spain and Italy as the majority are catholics/christians in faith

If you're talking about a movement of people from Chaldea to Phoenicia when the term "Phoenicia" was current, then you're confusing the ancient Chaldeans of SE Mesopotamia, the tribe who largely ruled the Neo-Babylonian Empire, with the modern Chaldean Catholics, so-called because "Chaldean" became synonymous with "Mesopotamia" by the time their first patriarchate was given its name in 1553. Chaldean Catholics are probably not descended primarily from the ancient Chaldeans, but rather share common ancestry with modern Assyrians, who seem to be primarily descended from ancient Assyrians and other populations who passed through the northern Mesopotamia region.

That said, I'm not sure what movement to Phoenicia you're talking about. When did that happen? If it's something more recent and you really do mean Chaldean Catholics, then probably "Phoenicia" isn't the right term to be using for the region.

[John123]

I really have no idea to be honest; I doubt I'm from there.

[John123]

Interesting little video, The males of the Al-Khalifa ruling family of Bahrain is T1a2 (T-P77). They find their origins in Saudi Arabia though.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T1LExcbR0is

[John123]

The Al-Sabah related family of Kuwait is a T too (related to Al-Khalifa) sorry about the terribly gay music lolll, I didn't exactly make the video

[Sile]

If you're talking about a movement of people from Chaldea to Phoenicia when the term "Phoenicia" was current, then you're confusing the ancient Chaldeans of SE Mesopotamia, the tribe who largely ruled the Neo-Babylonian Empire, with the modern Chaldean Catholics, so-called because "Chaldean" became synonymous with "Mesopotamia" by the time their first patriarchate was given its name in 1553. Chaldean Catholics are probably not descended primarily from the ancient Chaldeans, but rather share common ancestry with modern Assyrians, who seem to be primarily descended from ancient Assyrians and other populations who passed through the northern Mesopotamia region.

That said, I'm not sure what movement to Phoenicia you're talking about. When did that happen? If it's something more recent and you really do mean Chaldean Catholics, then probably "Phoenicia" isn't the right term to be using for the region.

from

The Chaldeans are also referred to as the “Neo-Babylonians.” Their capital was located in Babylon as well. In 612BCE, the Chaldeans gained independence when they defeated the Assyrians. The greatest Chaldean king was Nebuchadnezzar II. He conquered Phoenicia and the Hebrew kingdom of Judah (modern-day Israel). In doing so, Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the Hebrew Temple in Jerusalem and forced 10,000 Jews to relocate to Babylon as slaves

there ar eplenty like this on the net............the chaldeans took all of the levant looping from the north to moden israel

[John123]

According to the geno 2.0 migration map, T originated somewhere on the borders of southern Iraq, northern Saudi Arabia and eastern Jordan. From here, one branch would head through southern Iraq towards western Iran (Tehran/Isfahan/Kashan region). Another branch headed through southern Jordan/Israel onto the Sinai peninsula, and from northern Egypt it would travel to around southern Tunisia. Another branch headed through Syria and turkey into Europe via Bulgaria, then through Serbia and towards Slovenia.

[John123]

Interesting quotes on hg T from Madagascar antemoro study:

Haplogroup T1 was not found in the Ampanabaka group, only in the Antalaotra (9%) and the Anteony (55%) groups. Clade T is rare but it has a very broad distribution. T1 is found mainly in the Middle East (Palestine, Lebanon, Oman, Turkey, southern Iran), North Africa (Egypt, Morocco), sub-Saharan Africa (especially in eastern Africa: Ethiopia, Sudan, Tanzania, Uganda), and Europe [18,36,44–49]. It has also been described in India and China [34,40,50]

For haplotypes belonging to clade T (Figure 7), it also appeared that the Antemoro were not positioned at the ends of branches. Two Antemoro haplotypes were found in the Middle East (Israel, Lebanon and Palestine). Another haplotype was similar to an individual from Angola. These lineages were linked to individuals from Israel, Spain and Lebanon and on the outgoing branches Antemoro lineages were connected to individuals from Europe, Brazil, Zambia, northern Africa and Lebanon.

The T1 haplogroup, found at very low frequency in the world, seems to have a Southwestern Asia origin and to be associated with many demographic processes such as the spread of agriculture, the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles and the Jewish Diaspora [49]. Its presence in eastern Asia could be due to commercial and cultural exchanges via the former Silk Road [50]. Currently, it is found mainly in the Middle East but also in eastern Africa, northern Africa and probably in other regions that have been in contact with these geographic areas.

The Median-Joining network for T1 haplotypes links these lineages to Israel, Lebanon and Palestine. These results are also consistent with the low FST values between Anteony and Antalaotra and populations from Middle East/Southwest Asia. The combination of these two lineages (J1 and T1) tends to converge to an origin in the Persian Gulf or Middle East.

[John123]

It seems the T haplotypes of the Antemoro (two of them) clustered with T's from Phoenician periphery (Israel,Palestine,Lebanon). Sort of indicates a spread pattern:

"These lineages were linked to individuals from Israel, Spain and Lebanon and on the outgoing branches Antemoro lineages were connected to individuals from Europe, Brazil, Zambia, northern Africa and Lebanon."

The outgoing branches are connected to Europe, Brazil (immigrants, probably Portuguese) Zambia, North African and LEBANON. Phoenician spread maybe?

and then that last phrase:" The combination of these two lineages (J1 and T1) tends to converge to an origin in the Persian Gulf or Middle East"

[Sile]

@adamo

I have read recently that the oldest
T-P77 had mtdna marker h1ah
and
T-L446 had mtdna marker of T2c2

[John123]

According to geno 2.0 I'm 56% Mediterranean, 22% north European and 21% southwest Asian. "Mediterranean" includes everything south of central France (Spain,Portugal, Italy,Greece,Albania,Bulgaria,Romania, even Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia). The North African coast is also somehow included in this (morocco, northern Algeria, Tunisia, northern Libya, Egypt) and the Levantine coast (turkey,Cyprus,Lebanon,Syria,western Iraq). This region is associated with the spread of agriculture in the Neolithic 8,000 years ago via the western Fertile Crescent. Sardinians, Italians, Greeks, Lebanese, Egyptians and Tunisians where the reference populations for the Mediterranean classification. Then Northern European includes northern France, the British isles, Belgium, holland, Germany, Denmark, Poland, the Baltic states, all of Scandinavia (including Finland) parts of Russia. English, Danes, Finns, Russians and Germans were the reference populations for north European classification. This classification represents the original hunter-gatherers of old Europe before the Neolithic. Then southwest Asian includes Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, United Arab Emirates, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, India. The reference populations for southwest Asian were Iranians, Tajiks and Indians. This represents the spread of Neolithic via/towards the eastern Fertile Crescent.

[Sile]

According to geno 2.0 I'm 56% Mediterranean, 22% north European and 21% southwest Asian. "Mediterranean" includes everything south of central France (Spain,Portugal, Italy,Greece,Albania,Bulgaria,Romania, even Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia). The North African coast is also somehow included in this (morocco, northern Algeria, Tunisia, northern Libya, Egypt) and the Levantine coast (turkey,Cyprus,Lebanon,Syria,western Iraq). This region is associated with the spread of agriculture in the Neolithic 8,000 years ago via the western Fertile Crescent. Sardinians, Italians, Greeks, Lebanese, Egyptians and Tunisians where the reference populations for the Mediterranean classification. Then Northern European includes northern France, the British isles, Belgium, holland, Germany, Denmark, Poland, the Baltic states, all of Scandinavia (including Finland) parts of Russia. English, Danes, Finns, Russians and Germans were the reference populations for north European classification. This classification represents the original hunter-gatherers of old Europe before the Neolithic. Then southwest Asian includes Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, United Arab Emirates, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, India. The reference populations for southwest Asian were Iranians, Tajiks and Indians. This represents the spread of Neolithic via/towards the eastern Fertile Crescent.

I am surprised natGeno2 did not find any percentage of central european for you ( swiss, austrian, czech, slovene or hungarian )

[John123]

That wasn't an included option. The totality of Europe was summed up by Northern European and Mediterranean components. North European is everything to the north of central France and northern romania on the other end. Mediterranean was everything under that line including a strip of northernmost Africa and turkey + the general levant region.

[John123]

Which, I found that lame actually that north-Africa and reference populations such as Tunisians and Egyptians where classed under "Mediterranean"; I just didn't get that one. I understand south-central Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece coupled with turkey and Lebanon as "Mediterranean" (representing Neolithic component of Southern Europeans) but when they included Algerians, Tunisians and Egyptians I was taken aback. Why not just create a separate north-African component at that point? lol

[John123]

They weren't mentioned as reference populations but I'm sure the countries you stated where classed as north Europeans. Also I wanted to mention that I find it interesting that T in Madagascar clustered with lebanese, Israelis and Palestinians as the Phoenicians passed through the Nile of Egypt, went down the Swahili coast and basically circled Africa on both sides, the entire continent, moving from Cadiz to Canary Islands and Madeiras islands, hugging the coast all around. Also, can you explain to me what the results on the fifth page of this study means?

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~flmendez/p...2011_suppl.pdf

im not sure if the link works, I posted it on the first page if you could check it out for me; which column indicates the final number of T samples, I don't get it.