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View Poll Results: Where did haplogroup T first originate

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  • The levantine coast (Lebanon, Israel,Jordan)

    4 16.00%
  • The Persian gulf region ( southwestern Iran)

    10 40.00%
  • The pamir knot (Afghanistan/Tajikistan) frontier

    2 8.00%
  • By the Red Sea (Saudi Arabian coast.)

    3 12.00%
  • Other

    6 24.00%
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Thread: Where did haplogroup T first originate

  1. #51
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    A quote from god (spencer wells private message):

    "T is found around the Mediterranean basin, and yes, some of its spread almost certainly was due to the Phoenicians. Not too surprising given you Italian ancestry, especially if it was southern Italian/Sicilian. Hope this helps!"

  2. #52
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by John123 View Post
    A quote from god (spencer wells private message):

    "T is found around the Mediterranean basin, and yes, some of its spread almost certainly was due to the Phoenicians. Not too surprising given you Italian ancestry, especially if it was southern Italian/Sicilian. Hope this helps!"
    God has spoken........but.....but , what about me?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  3. #53
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    But how could you be god Sile? You don't keep me entertained enough with propositions of our origins LOL, I'm always doing the research : (

  4. #54
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by John123 View Post
    But how could you be god Sile? You don't keep me entertained enough with propositions of our origins LOL, I'm always doing the research : (
    i meant spencer wells is god

    you need to catch up in regards to research.........i still cannot find this 22% jordanians...I only found 6.7%

  5. #55
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    Courtesy of genographic 2.0 (well, according to them):

    "This is my genographic description for M70: age of haplogroup, mutation took place: 33,750-19,250 years ago.This step of your paternal ancestors journey took place in the fertile climate of west Asia during the upper Paleolithic. Early members of this lineage where hunter gatherers who took part in Emirian culture and other advances in weapons technology. From west Asia, this lineage spread to north Africa, South Asia, and Europe. Today, it is a significant part of the male lineages of west Asia. It is around 21% of male lineages in Jordan. It and several of its subtypes are present in Jewish diaspora groups such as Iraqi Jews and Kurdish Jews. In North Africa, it is 6 to 7% of male Egyptian lineages and about 7% of the male Ethiopian population. In South Asia, it is 53% of the isolated Bauris Indian male lineages and 7 to 11 % of Gond indian male lineages. In Europe, this branch contributes to between 5 and 17% of Sicilian male lineages. It is about 5% of male lineages on mainland Italy. It varies between 3 and 24% of male lineages across different regions of Germany. (Then there are photos associated with M70) they say: (photo #1): Some 20% of all Jordanian men are members of the M70 lineage which arose in West Asia during the fertile Upper Paleolithic and remains common here. (Photo#2): Many groups of the Jewish diaspora, including Iraqi Jews and Kurdish Jews, such as this man, share the M70 lineage. (Photo#3): This Iraqi man may be part of the M70 lineage which rose among hunter gatherers in the fertile climes of west Asia. From there, other branches spread to South Asia, North Africa and Europe. (Photo#4): This Baghdad girl lives in an ancient cradle of civilizations. The fertile lands of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers spawned early agriculture and legendary cities like Babylon. (Photo#5): Boys from Kashan, Iran live in an ancient centre of human civilization. The nearby site of Tepe Sialk includes evidence of human settlement 8,000 years ago."

  6. #56
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    Then there is another description for my L299 subclade: age: 26,500-14,500 years ago: This man and his earliest descendants lived in western Asia during the time of Kebaran culture. The wide-traveling hunter-gatherers of west Asia were some of the earliest groups to use and collect cereal grains. The fertile land of the Levant and increasing utilization of grains set the stage for the Neolithic revolution. Though the Neolithic revolution did not push this lineage to dominance as it did others, the new agriculture-based settlements did help it expand across west Asia, and into North Africa, Anatolia, and Southern Europe. Today, the highest frequencies of the lineage are in Jordan (16%) Egypt (16%) Somalia (14%) and Iraq (13%). It is present throughout West Asia, and is about 8% of the Druze male population. Toward Anatolia, it is between 10 and 13% of male Assyrian populations. It is present in England and the Netherlands at trace frequencies of less than 1%. It and its descendant branches are present in Jewish diaspora populations. That's my L299 description, is it just re-stating M70, or describing L299 in particular, I do not know, although this was written as information of specifically L299, the T1a1 subclade of M70 (T1).

  7. #57
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    why the huge range?

    It varies between 3 and 24% of male lineages across different regions of Germany.

  8. #58
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    Probably because it represents small fractionned parts of Germany with the highest frequency being 24% in a region; I'm only shocked that the 3% isn't lower anywhere lol. But the Jordan claim is apparently substantiated, as they haven't corrected it since the nearly two years that I've taken the test.


    "It is around 21% of male lineages in Jordan." - genographic 2.0


    you are correct in that this is the only claim I've ever seen of this but they must somehow know something that we don't with their 130,000 SNP or whatever system they have. I find it sketchy though that on the T-M70+ slide it says it's found in 21% of Jordanians, and on the following L299 slide it says it's found in 16% of Jordanians LOL; a direct contradiction. Then for T-M70+ it says some 6-7% of Egyptian males are positive for T-M70+. By the time we reach the next L299 slide/text, it says that the highest frequencies are to be found (nationally) in Jordanians (16%), Egyptians (16%), Somalis (14%) and Iraqis (13%), so this is confusing as well. And then, most studies I've seen on T in Iraq personally, seem to indicate about 6-7% T nationally, with a 9% high in the Al-Qādisiyyah Governorate province of southern Iraq, for example. I don't know who put these slides together but he must have been having a bad day on the only one dedicated to making these texts (lol). Some info though IS correct; 5% of italians proper, 7% of Ethiopians, 8% of Druze, 10-13% of Assyrians towards Anatolia, less than 1% of English and Dutch males.
    The Indian lineages as well are represented correctly, and the 5-17% of Sicilians. The German minimum is too high (3%) and their 24% maximum could have novices confused thinking certain regions of Germany are haplogroup T havens; which isn't the case other than in a few genetically isolated south-Bavarian communities I imagine, that must have had contact with northeastern italy (Tyrol or Veneto regions, for example.) But the lowering of the Jordanian % and the heightening of the Egyptian ones from the T-M70+ slide to the T-L299+ one are a source of concern to me, unless I'm the one misinterpreting. Also, I'm not sure how much evidence there is out there substantiating that 13% of Iraqis and 16-21% of Jordanians are M70+ positive; someone would have to grow some balls and contact someone at genographic 2.0 for source claims or study proof. I guess Egyptians have 6-7% to 16% T? I've seen studies showing 8% nationally with 10% pockets in the south, but who knows.

  9. #59
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    Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Libyan Arabs, Lebanese; they all seem to gravitate around 5% with Iraq at 6%. Assyrians of Iran, Egyptians and Omani people are nearer to 8%; thats about it according to Wikipedia lol.

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    To me, nailing the origin of T in the Mediterranean is actually pretty simple; we just need to take a look at southern Iberia. First of all, there's a very coastal Mediterranean bias for T in Europe; particularly west-Central Europe (Iberia+Italy and islands especially). Other than minor 5-10% highs in coastal cantabria or Asturias (probable Phoenician origin as well) there are the Tras O Montes Portuguese Jews that show about 15% T in their communities. These are small and isolated however. The question is, why is there 7% T in Andalusia? Why does Cadiz in particular have 10% T? Why does Ibiza have 17% T? Who visited these regions? The Phoenicians. We know Ibiza derives it's name from Phoenician Ybossim. There are also small Jewish communities on the Ibiza islands, notably on Majorca. But these Jews came up positive for 1-2% T. In a genetic study done on the high frequencies of T in The eastern Spanish islands, this Jewish community was effectively ruled out as the source of T in Ibiza , thus another source was responsible for it; by far the most likely candidate are the Phoenicians.

    Deep Ancestry Project book, written by Spencer Wells himself in 2007, haplogroup K2 description:

    "Not all K-M9 descendants challenged the problem of the Pamir Knot. Others stayed in the relatively fertile environment of the near east. There, some 30,000 years ago, the marker M70 appeared and today defines this haplogroup, K2. Ancient members of haplogroup K2 dispersed across the Mediterranean world. They traveled west along the coast of north-Africa and also along the Mediterranean coastlines of Southern Europe. These movements suggest an intriguing possibility that the M70 marker may have been carried by Mediterranean traders such as the Phoenicians. These sea-faring people established a formidable, first millennium B.C. trading empire that spread westward, across the Mediterranean from its origins on the coast of modern-day Lebanon. M70 is found today throughout the Mediterranean, but it shows it's highest frequency (about 15 percent) in the Middle East and in north-east Africa. Members of this haplogroup are also found in southern Spain and France."


    the only inconsistency would be the rarity of T in modern Lebanon (4.5-5%), but if that 16-21% of Jordanians IS in fact correct, that would mean this theory would be on the right track.

  11. #61
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    To me, nailing the origin of T in the Mediterranean is actually pretty simple; we just need to take a look at southern Iberia. First of all, there's a very coastal Mediterranean bias for T in Europe; particularly west-Central Europe (Iberia+Italy and islands especially). Other than minor 5-10% highs in coastal cantabria or Asturias (probable Phoenician origin as well) there are the Tras O Montes Portuguese Jews that show about 15% T in their communities. These are small and isolated however. The question is, why is there 7% T in Andalusia? Why does Cadiz in particular have 10% T? Why does Ibiza have 17% T? Who visited these regions? The Phoenicians. We know Ibiza derives it's name from Phoenician Ybossim. There are also small Jewish communities on the Ibiza islands, notably on Majorca. But these Jews came up positive for 2% T. In a genetic study done on the high frequencies of T in Iberia, this Jewish community was effectively ruled out as the source of T on the Ibiza islands, thus another source was responsible for it; by far the most likely candidate are the Phoenicians.


    Deep Ancestry Project book, written by Spencer Wells himself in 2007, haplogroup K2 description:


    "Not all K-M9 descendants challenged the problem of the Pamir Knot. Others stayed in the relatively fertile environment of the near east. There, some 30,000 years ago, the marker M70 appeared and today defines this haplogroup, K2. Ancient members of haplogroup K2 dispersed across the Mediterranean world. They traveled west along the coast of north-Africa and also along the Mediterranean coastlines of Southern Europe. These movements suggest an intriguing possibility that the M70 marker may have been carried by Mediterranean traders such as the Phoenicians. These sea-faring people established a formidable, first millennium B.C. trading empire that spread westward, across the Mediterranean from its origins on the coast of modern-day Lebanon. M70 is found today throughout the Mediterranean, but it shows it's highest frequency (about 15 percent) in the Middle East and in north-east Africa. Members of this haplogroup are also found in southern Spain and France."


    the only inconsistency would be the rarity of T in modern Lebanon (4.5-5%), but if that 16-21% of Jordanians IS in fact correct, that would mean this theory would be on the right track.

  12. #62
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    "They traveled west along the coast of north-Africa and also along the Mediterranean coastlines of Southern Europe" that sounds eerily like the movements of the Phoenicians, a general pattern that haplogroup T matches very well; globally. But then it's backed up by this "These movements suggest an intriguing possibility that the M70 marker may have been carried by Mediterranean traders such as the Phoenicians." Lol, so it seems already at this point they where catching on or speculating a Phoenician spread across the Mediterranean basin....the only contradictory evidence is from Lebanon and it's periphery itself, where T seems to be found at around 5% or so (like everywhere else lol...) but again like I said, if one fifth of Jordanians are in fact T (a claim not backed by other studies I've seen, 3-7%) then it could very well be a Phoenician periphery genetic marker. If I have to, I'll take a screenshot of my genographic 2.0 slides and result details to prove that this is in fact mentioned, maybe I could find an interesting photo or two as well.

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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...5/#!po=73.8095

    sile can you help me understand what it says about k2 here? Which PSC+ represents K2? was it spread by Phoenicians according to this?

  14. #64
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    North Alpine Italian
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    Quote Originally Posted by John123 View Post
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...5/#!po=73.8095

    sile can you help me understand what it says about k2 here? Which PSC+ represents K2? was it spread by Phoenicians according to this?
    No PSC on list matches K2 markers.............it proves K2 is not phoenician but does not prove that K2 did no go with Phoenicians

    K2
    Marker Modal Range of most common values
    393 13 13-14
    390 23 22-25
    19 15 14-17
    391 10 9-11
    385a 14 13-14
    385b 16 13-17
    426 11 apparently 11
    388 12 12, 14
    439 11 10-13
    389-1 14 13-15
    392 13 13,14
    389-2 30 27-30 DYS 389-2 = 27 helps
    define an entire subclade.
    458 18 14-19
    459a 9 8,9
    459b 9 8-10
    455 11 apparently 11
    454 13 10-15
    447 26 24-27
    437 14 12-15
    448 19 17-21
    449 33,34 31-36
    464a 11
    464b 13,14
    464c 15,16
    464d 16
    460 10 10,11
    GATA H4 10 9-11
    YCA IIa 23 22,23
    YCA IIb 24 23-25
    456 15 14-16
    607 13,14 13-15
    576 17,18,19 14-19
    570 18 16-20
    CDY a 35 30-39
    CDY b 36
    442 11 11-13
    438 9

    bold is average

  15. #65
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    No PSC on list matches K2 markers.............it proves K2 is not phoenician but does not prove that K2 did no go with Phoenicians

    K2
    Marker Modal Range of most common values
    393 13 13-14
    390 23 22-25
    19 15 14-17
    391 10 9-11
    385a 14 13-14
    385b 16 13-17
    426 11 apparently 11
    388 12 12, 14
    439 11 10-13
    389-1 14 13-15
    392 13 13,14
    389-2 30 27-30 DYS 389-2 = 27 helps
    define an entire subclade.
    458 18 14-19
    459a 9 8,9
    459b 9 8-10
    455 11 apparently 11
    454 13 10-15
    447 26 24-27
    437 14 12-15
    448 19 17-21
    449 33,34 31-36
    464a 11
    464b 13,14
    464c 15,16
    464d 16
    460 10 10,11
    GATA H4 10 9-11
    YCA IIa 23 22,23
    YCA IIb 24 23-25
    456 15 14-16
    607 13,14 13-15
    576 17,18,19 14-19
    570 18 16-20
    CDY a 35 30-39
    CDY b 36
    442 11 11-13
    438 9

    bold is average
    from T genetic managers
    Markers to note are
    DYF395S1 17-17 - results for T, L, Q and R1a all have 16-17 or 17-17
    contrasting with modal 15-16 for R1b.

    This suggests that the K founder may have had 16-17 or 17-17 and that this
    has been fairly stable in many descendant haplogroups. It would be
    interesting to know when in the history of R1b the ancestral value changed.

    DYS413 20-20 - the lowest values I have seen outside the J2a1 (17-17)
    group.
    DYF534 18 - at the upper end of the range for this marker
    DYF481 27 - also "high" for this very variable marker.

  16. #66
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    I recently read that T-M70 originated

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorestan_Province

    by the Kassites group.................of course T is far older, I guess the paper means an association with an ancient people ............still T-M184 the basal marker is elusive

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    Ok so T is not a main Phoenician marker...? Then what explains it's particular spread across the Mediterranean, canary/Madeiras islans, Lemba; a community of sleek crypto-Jews moving across the board? The distribution has an undeniably Phoenician pattern...can you send me the paper, new info for once...so now it'sit's the kassites of western Iran I guess.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Sumer ? Maybe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Lyonnist View Post
    Sumer ? Maybe.
    I have heard this theory, but I'm not aware of any strong support. It is tempting, though, because Sumerian is a language isolate in a sea of Semitic languages (Babylonian, Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, etc.) and seeing language "islands" is often a sign of y-chromosome diversity according to the "father tongue" hypothesis. Of course, the "father tongue" hypothesis doesn't always hold, with Hungarian and (possibly) Basque as notable exceptions. Sumerian could be a "mother tongue" language that was spoken by J-bearing men closely related to their Semitic-speaking cousins, but who themselves spoke a matrilineal language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertColumbia View Post
    I have heard this theory, but I'm not aware of any strong support. It is tempting, though, because Sumerian is a language isolate in a sea of Semitic languages (Babylonian, Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, etc.) and seeing language "islands" is often a sign of y-chromosome diversity according to the "father tongue" hypothesis. Of course, the "father tongue" hypothesis doesn't always hold, with Hungarian and (possibly) Basque as notable exceptions. Sumerian could be a "mother tongue" language that was spoken by J-bearing men closely related to their Semitic-speaking cousins, but who themselves spoke a matrilineal language.
    It did not originate there..........it would have originated where LT split apart, so where near L ydna

    But Maciano IIRC states more of a Elamite than Sumer for T
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elam

    IMO, sumer came from NW india to Kasmir areas and went to sumer ...............via the persian gulf which was only a river then

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    T in Ibiza ( Eivissa Pityuses ) which represents 17% of the populace

    not my branch of ydna

    T1a1-L162 (xL208)

    T1a1 formed 17,400-14,600 BP, is the largest lineage downstream from T1a-M70 and became widespread across Eurasia and Africa before the modern era.
    This extremely rare subclade has been found in Ibizan (Eivissan) islanders and Pontic Greeks from Giresun. The first Y-STR haplotype belonging to this lineage appeared in the paper of Tomas et al in 2006 among a sample of Eivissan individuals but is not until August 2009 when the first T1a1-L162(xL208) individual was reported in a 23andMe customer of Pontic Greek background and Metaxopoulos surname, thanks to the public Adriano Squecco's Y-Chromosome Genome Comparison Project.
    Pontic Greeks from Giresun descend from Sinope colonists and Sinope was colonised by Ionians from Miletus. Is interesting to note that there exist an Ionian colony known as Pityussa just like the known Greek name for Eivissa Pityuses. In Eivissa, where is found the famous bust of Demeter that have been confused with the punic Tanit for decades, is known the cult to Demeter. The bust belonging to Demeter have been analysed and is found to contains black particles of volcanic sand origin from the Etna, is thought to be made in Sicily with red clays typical of the eastern Trinacria, which was colonized by the Ionians. The Ionians could be arrived to Eivissa c.2700 YBP. This lineage could be an Ionian marker. T1a1 formed 17,400-14,600 BP, is the largest lineage downstream from T1a-M70 and became widespread across Eurasia and Africa before the modern era.
    This extremely rare subclade has been found in Ibizan (Eivissan) islanders and Pontic Greeks from Giresun. The first Y-STR haplotype belonging to this lineage appeared in the paper of Tomas et al in 2006 among a sample of Eivissan individuals.

    Rodríguez V, Tomàs C, Sánchez JJ, et al. (March 2009). "Genetic sub-structure in western Mediterranean populations revealed by 12 Y-chromosome STR loci". Int. J. Legal Med. 123 (2): 137–41. doi:10.1007/s00414-008-0302-y. PMID 19066931.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    It did not originate there..........it would have originated where LT split apart, so where near L ydna

    But Maciano IIRC states more of a Elamite than Sumer for T
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elam

    IMO, sumer came from NW india to Kasmir areas and went to sumer ...............via the persian gulf which was only a river then
    @Marciamo

    I read your September 2016 update on T ( ydna ) and it seems the you like that, Pole from Eurogenes conveniently forget about samples that could "ruin your theory" from the past.

    I hope this is not the case

    Most of the article is good.

    But, the issue is that you continually leave out the second Karsdorf T sample from the Haak paper leaves your theory wanting..........there are actually 2 ancient T samples in early neolithic Germany

    And, the/your "herder" theory seems to be destroyed, T where Anatolian farmers who went to Central Europe....... . I do not know why you use this term, it seems the term herders is irrelevant to ancient samples..........either one is a farmer or a hunter

  23. #73
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    a new Russian 2017 paper on kazikstan reveal these y-dna numbers for the 767 tested




    for T y-dna 48% of the 6% are from these area below


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Population Language Location Members/Sample size Percentage Source


    [hide]
    Notes
    Momyns Old Basmyl / Kazakh (Turkic) Argyn Tribe 16/30 53.3% [249] The outlier Babasan subclan is excluded from "sample size" and "percentage". 5 out of 6 Clans and 13 out of 19 Subclans have T-M184 members.
    Meyrams Old Basmyl / Kazakh (Turkic) Argyn Tribe 15/49 30.6% [249] 5 out of 5 Clans and 11 out of 16 Subclans have T-M184 members.

    Argyns T1a-M70.jpg

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    Population Language Location Members/Sample size Percentage Source


    [hide]
    Notes
    Momyns Old Basmyl / Kazakh (Turkic) Argyn Tribe 16/30 53.3% [249] The outlier Babasan subclan is excluded from "sample size" and "percentage". 5 out of 6 Clans and 13 out of 19 Subclans have T-M184 members.
    Meyrams Old Basmyl / Kazakh (Turkic) Argyn Tribe 15/49 30.6% [249] 5 out of 5 Clans and 11 out of 16 Subclans have T-M184 members.

    Argyns T1a-M70.jpg
    the T-m184 from you above are associated with the Ashina people ...............who either learnt Sogdrian or taught their language to the sogdrians

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