Where did haplogroup T first originate

[Sile]

If you're talking about a movement of people from Chaldea to Phoenicia when the term "Phoenicia" was current, then you're confusing the ancient Chaldeans of SE Mesopotamia, the tribe who largely ruled the Neo-Babylonian Empire, with the modern Chaldean Catholics, so-called because "Chaldean" became synonymous with "Mesopotamia" by the time their first patriarchate was given its name in 1553. Chaldean Catholics are probably not descended primarily from the ancient Chaldeans, but rather share common ancestry with modern Assyrians, who seem to be primarily descended from ancient Assyrians and other populations who passed through the northern Mesopotamia region.

That said, I'm not sure what movement to Phoenicia you're talking about. When did that happen? If it's something more recent and you really do mean Chaldean Catholics, then probably "Phoenicia" isn't the right term to be using for the region.

from

The Chaldeans are also referred to as the “Neo-Babylonians.” Their capital was located in Babylon as well. In 612BCE, the Chaldeans gained independence when they defeated the Assyrians. The greatest Chaldean king was Nebuchadnezzar II. He conquered Phoenicia and the Hebrew kingdom of Judah (modern-day Israel). In doing so, Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the Hebrew Temple in Jerusalem and forced 10,000 Jews to relocate to Babylon as slaves

there ar eplenty like this on the net............the chaldeans took all of the levant looping from the north to moden israel

 

[John123]

According to the geno 2.0 migration map, T originated somewhere on the borders of southern Iraq, northern Saudi Arabia and eastern Jordan. From here, one branch would head through southern Iraq towards western Iran (Tehran/Isfahan/Kashan region). Another branch headed through southern Jordan/Israel onto the Sinai peninsula, and from northern Egypt it would travel to around southern Tunisia. Another branch headed through Syria and turkey into Europe via Bulgaria, then through Serbia and towards Slovenia.

 

[John123]

Interesting quotes on hg T from Madagascar antemoro study:

Haplogroup T1 was not found in the Ampanabaka group, only in the Antalaotra (9%) and the Anteony (55%) groups. Clade T is rare but it has a very broad distribution. T1 is found mainly in the Middle East (Palestine, Lebanon, Oman, Turkey, southern Iran), North Africa (Egypt, Morocco), sub-Saharan Africa (especially in eastern Africa: Ethiopia, Sudan, Tanzania, Uganda), and Europe [18,36,44–49]. It has also been described in India and China [34,40,50]

For haplotypes belonging to clade T (Figure 7), it also appeared that the Antemoro were not positioned at the ends of branches. Two Antemoro haplotypes were found in the Middle East (Israel, Lebanon and Palestine). Another haplotype was similar to an individual from Angola. These lineages were linked to individuals from Israel, Spain and Lebanon and on the outgoing branches Antemoro lineages were connected to individuals from Europe, Brazil, Zambia, northern Africa and Lebanon.

The T1 haplogroup, found at very low frequency in the world, seems to have a Southwestern Asia origin and to be associated with many demographic processes such as the spread of agriculture, the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles and the Jewish Diaspora [49]. Its presence in eastern Asia could be due to commercial and cultural exchanges via the former Silk Road [50]. Currently, it is found mainly in the Middle East but also in eastern Africa, northern Africa and probably in other regions that have been in contact with these geographic areas.

The Median-Joining network for T1 haplotypes links these lineages to Israel, Lebanon and Palestine. These results are also consistent with the low FST values between Anteony and Antalaotra and populations from Middle East/Southwest Asia. The combination of these two lineages (J1 and T1) tends to converge to an origin in the Persian Gulf or Middle East.

 

[John123]

It seems the T haplotypes of the Antemoro (two of them) clustered with T's from Phoenician periphery (Israel,Palestine,Lebanon). Sort of indicates a spread pattern:

"These lineages were linked to individuals from Israel, Spain and Lebanon and on the outgoing branches Antemoro lineages were connected to individuals from Europe, Brazil, Zambia, northern Africa and Lebanon."

The outgoing branches are connected to Europe, Brazil (immigrants, probably Portuguese) Zambia, North African and LEBANON. Phoenician spread maybe?

and then that last phrase:" The combination of these two lineages (J1 and T1) tends to converge to an origin in the Persian Gulf or Middle East"

 

[Sile]

@adamo

I have read recently that the oldest
T-P77 had mtdna marker h1ah
and
T-L446 had mtdna marker of T2c2

 

[John123]

According to geno 2.0 I'm 56% Mediterranean, 22% north European and 21% southwest Asian. "Mediterranean" includes everything south of central France (Spain,Portugal, Italy,Greece,Albania,Bulgaria,Romania, even Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia). The North African coast is also somehow included in this (morocco, northern Algeria, Tunisia, northern Libya, Egypt) and the Levantine coast (turkey,Cyprus,Lebanon,Syria,western Iraq). This region is associated with the spread of agriculture in the Neolithic 8,000 years ago via the western Fertile Crescent. Sardinians, Italians, Greeks, Lebanese, Egyptians and Tunisians where the reference populations for the Mediterranean classification. Then Northern European includes northern France, the British isles, Belgium, holland, Germany, Denmark, Poland, the Baltic states, all of Scandinavia (including Finland) parts of Russia. English, Danes, Finns, Russians and Germans were the reference populations for north European classification. This classification represents the original hunter-gatherers of old Europe before the Neolithic. Then southwest Asian includes Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, United Arab Emirates, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, India. The reference populations for southwest Asian were Iranians, Tajiks and Indians. This represents the spread of Neolithic via/towards the eastern Fertile Crescent.

 

[Sile]

According to geno 2.0 I'm 56% Mediterranean, 22% north European and 21% southwest Asian. "Mediterranean" includes everything south of central France (Spain,Portugal, Italy,Greece,Albania,Bulgaria,Romania, even Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia). The North African coast is also somehow included in this (morocco, northern Algeria, Tunisia, northern Libya, Egypt) and the Levantine coast (turkey,Cyprus,Lebanon,Syria,western Iraq). This region is associated with the spread of agriculture in the Neolithic 8,000 years ago via the western Fertile Crescent. Sardinians, Italians, Greeks, Lebanese, Egyptians and Tunisians where the reference populations for the Mediterranean classification. Then Northern European includes northern France, the British isles, Belgium, holland, Germany, Denmark, Poland, the Baltic states, all of Scandinavia (including Finland) parts of Russia. English, Danes, Finns, Russians and Germans were the reference populations for north European classification. This classification represents the original hunter-gatherers of old Europe before the Neolithic. Then southwest Asian includes Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, United Arab Emirates, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, India. The reference populations for southwest Asian were Iranians, Tajiks and Indians. This represents the spread of Neolithic via/towards the eastern Fertile Crescent.

I am surprised natGeno2 did not find any percentage of central european for you ( swiss, austrian, czech, slovene or hungarian )

 

[John123]

That wasn't an included option. The totality of Europe was summed up by Northern European and Mediterranean components. North European is everything to the north of central France and northern romania on the other end. Mediterranean was everything under that line including a strip of northernmost Africa and turkey + the general levant region.

 

[John123]

Which, I found that lame actually that north-Africa and reference populations such as Tunisians and Egyptians where classed under "Mediterranean"; I just didn't get that one. I understand south-central Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece coupled with turkey and Lebanon as "Mediterranean" (representing Neolithic component of Southern Europeans) but when they included Algerians, Tunisians and Egyptians I was taken aback. Why not just create a separate north-African component at that point? lol

 

[John123]

They weren't mentioned as reference populations but I'm sure the countries you stated where classed as north Europeans. Also I wanted to mention that I find it interesting that T in Madagascar clustered with lebanese, Israelis and Palestinians as the Phoenicians passed through the Nile of Egypt, went down the Swahili coast and basically circled Africa on both sides, the entire continent, moving from Cadiz to Canary Islands and Madeiras islands, hugging the coast all around. Also, can you explain to me what the results on the fifth page of this study means?

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~flmendez/p...2011_suppl.pdf

im not sure if the link works, I posted it on the first page if you could check it out for me; which column indicates the final number of T samples, I don't get it.

 

[John123]

A quote from god (spencer wells private message):

"T is found around the Mediterranean basin, and yes, some of its spread almost certainly was due to the Phoenicians. Not too surprising given you Italian ancestry, especially if it was southern Italian/Sicilian. Hope this helps!"

 

[Sile]

A quote from god (spencer wells private message):

"T is found around the Mediterranean basin, and yes, some of its spread almost certainly was due to the Phoenicians. Not too surprising given you Italian ancestry, especially if it was southern Italian/Sicilian. Hope this helps!"

God has spoken........but.....but , what about me?

 

[John123]

But how could you be god Sile? You don't keep me entertained enough with propositions of our origins LOL, I'm always doing the research : (

 

[Sile]

But how could you be god Sile? You don't keep me entertained enough with propositions of our origins LOL, I'm always doing the research : (

i meant spencer wells is god

you need to catch up in regards to research.........i still cannot find this 22% jordanians...I only found 6.7%

 

[John123]

Courtesy of genographic 2.0 (well, according to them):

"This is my genographic description for M70: age of haplogroup, mutation took place: 33,750-19,250 years ago.This step of your paternal ancestors journey took place in the fertile climate of west Asia during the upper Paleolithic. Early members of this lineage where hunter gatherers who took part in Emirian culture and other advances in weapons technology. From west Asia, this lineage spread to north Africa, South Asia, and Europe. Today, it is a significant part of the male lineages of west Asia. It is around 21% of male lineages in Jordan. It and several of its subtypes are present in Jewish diaspora groups such as Iraqi Jews and Kurdish Jews. In North Africa, it is 6 to 7% of male Egyptian lineages and about 7% of the male Ethiopian population. In South Asia, it is 53% of the isolated Bauris Indian male lineages and 7 to 11 % of Gond indian male lineages. In Europe, this branch contributes to between 5 and 17% of Sicilian male lineages. It is about 5% of male lineages on mainland Italy. It varies between 3 and 24% of male lineages across different regions of Germany. (Then there are photos associated with M70) they say: (photo #1): Some 20% of all Jordanian men are members of the M70 lineage which arose in West Asia during the fertile Upper Paleolithic and remains common here. (Photo#2): Many groups of the Jewish diaspora, including Iraqi Jews and Kurdish Jews, such as this man, share the M70 lineage. (Photo#3): This Iraqi man may be part of the M70 lineage which rose among hunter gatherers in the fertile climes of west Asia. From there, other branches spread to South Asia, North Africa and Europe. (Photo#4): This Baghdad girl lives in an ancient cradle of civilizations. The fertile lands of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers spawned early agriculture and legendary cities like Babylon. (Photo#5): Boys from Kashan, Iran live in an ancient centre of human civilization. The nearby site of Tepe Sialk includes evidence of human settlement 8,000 years ago."

 

[John123]

Then there is another description for my L299 subclade: age: 26,500-14,500 years ago: This man and his earliest descendants lived in western Asia during the time of Kebaran culture. The wide-traveling hunter-gatherers of west Asia were some of the earliest groups to use and collect cereal grains. The fertile land of the Levant and increasing utilization of grains set the stage for the Neolithic revolution. Though the Neolithic revolution did not push this lineage to dominance as it did others, the new agriculture-based settlements did help it expand across west Asia, and into North Africa, Anatolia, and Southern Europe. Today, the highest frequencies of the lineage are in Jordan (16%) Egypt (16%) Somalia (14%) and Iraq (13%). It is present throughout West Asia, and is about 8% of the Druze male population. Toward Anatolia, it is between 10 and 13% of male Assyrian populations. It is present in England and the Netherlands at trace frequencies of less than 1%. It and its descendant branches are present in Jewish diaspora populations. That's my L299 description, is it just re-stating M70, or describing L299 in particular, I do not know, although this was written as information of specifically L299, the T1a1 subclade of M70 (T1).

 

[Sile]

why the huge range?

It varies between 3 and 24% of male lineages across different regions of Germany.

 

[John123]

Probably because it represents small fractionned parts of Germany with the highest frequency being 24% in a region; I'm only shocked that the 3% isn't lower anywhere lol. But the Jordan claim is apparently substantiated, as they haven't corrected it since the nearly two years that I've taken the test.


"It is around 21% of male lineages in Jordan." - genographic 2.0


you are correct in that this is the only claim I've ever seen of this but they must somehow know something that we don't with their 130,000 SNP or whatever system they have. I find it sketchy though that on the T-M70+ slide it says it's found in 21% of Jordanians, and on the following L299 slide it says it's found in 16% of Jordanians LOL; a direct contradiction. Then for T-M70+ it says some 6-7% of Egyptian males are positive for T-M70+. By the time we reach the next L299 slide/text, it says that the highest frequencies are to be found (nationally) in Jordanians (16%), Egyptians (16%), Somalis (14%) and Iraqis (13%), so this is confusing as well. And then, most studies I've seen on T in Iraq personally, seem to indicate about 6-7% T nationally, with a 9% high in the Al-Qādisiyyah Governorate province of southern Iraq, for example. I don't know who put these slides together but he must have been having a bad day on the only one dedicated to making these texts (lol). Some info though IS correct; 5% of italians proper, 7% of Ethiopians, 8% of Druze, 10-13% of Assyrians towards Anatolia, less than 1% of English and Dutch males.
The Indian lineages as well are represented correctly, and the 5-17% of Sicilians. The German minimum is too high (3%) and their 24% maximum could have novices confused thinking certain regions of Germany are haplogroup T havens; which isn't the case other than in a few genetically isolated south-Bavarian communities I imagine, that must have had contact with northeastern italy (Tyrol or Veneto regions, for example.) But the lowering of the Jordanian % and the heightening of the Egyptian ones from the T-M70+ slide to the T-L299+ one are a source of concern to me, unless I'm the one misinterpreting. Also, I'm not sure how much evidence there is out there substantiating that 13% of Iraqis and 16-21% of Jordanians are M70+ positive; someone would have to grow some balls and contact someone at genographic 2.0 for source claims or study proof. I guess Egyptians have 6-7% to 16% T? I've seen studies showing 8% nationally with 10% pockets in the south, but who knows.

 

[John123]

Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Libyan Arabs, Lebanese; they all seem to gravitate around 5% with Iraq at 6%. Assyrians of Iran, Egyptians and Omani people are nearer to 8%; thats about it according to Wikipedia lol.

 

[John123]

To me, nailing the origin of T in the Mediterranean is actually pretty simple; we just need to take a look at southern Iberia. First of all, there's a very coastal Mediterranean bias for T in Europe; particularly west-Central Europe (Iberia+Italy and islands especially). Other than minor 5-10% highs in coastal cantabria or Asturias (probable Phoenician origin as well) there are the Tras O Montes Portuguese Jews that show about 15% T in their communities. These are small and isolated however. The question is, why is there 7% T in Andalusia? Why does Cadiz in particular have 10% T? Why does Ibiza have 17% T? Who visited these regions? The Phoenicians. We know Ibiza derives it's name from Phoenician Ybossim. There are also small Jewish communities on the Ibiza islands, notably on Majorca. But these Jews came up positive for 1-2% T. In a genetic study done on the high frequencies of T in The eastern Spanish islands, this Jewish community was effectively ruled out as the source of T in Ibiza , thus another source was responsible for it; by far the most likely candidate are the Phoenicians.

Deep Ancestry Project book, written by Spencer Wells himself in 2007, haplogroup K2 description:

"Not all K-M9 descendants challenged the problem of the Pamir Knot. Others stayed in the relatively fertile environment of the near east. There, some 30,000 years ago, the marker M70 appeared and today defines this haplogroup, K2. Ancient members of haplogroup K2 dispersed across the Mediterranean world. They traveled west along the coast of north-Africa and also along the Mediterranean coastlines of Southern Europe. These movements suggest an intriguing possibility that the M70 marker may have been carried by Mediterranean traders such as the Phoenicians. These sea-faring people established a formidable, first millennium B.C. trading empire that spread westward, across the Mediterranean from its origins on the coast of modern-day Lebanon. M70 is found today throughout the Mediterranean, but it shows it's highest frequency (about 15 percent) in the Middle East and in north-east Africa. Members of this haplogroup are also found in southern Spain and France."


the only inconsistency would be the rarity of T in modern Lebanon (4.5-5%), but if that 16-21% of Jordanians IS in fact correct, that would mean this theory would be on the right track.