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Thread: less homogeneous "populations" are Italians and French ?

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    less homogeneous "populations" are Italians and French ?

    http://www.plosbiology.org/article/i...l.pbio.1001555

    seems like the italians and french within their respective borders are the least genetically united europeans.

    very ancient gene lines
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    what does this link say about albanians ?

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    You can see in this table the degree of genetic diversity for each population.



    The 'self' column shows the number of shared IBD ("identical by descent") blocks with other individuals of that country. The 'other' column compares IBD blocks with other countries. The higher the value the more recent the common shared ancestry. The Italians have the lowest self value (0.6), followed by the French (0.7) then the Belgians, Germans and Swiss (all 1.1). These are Europe's most genetically diverse populations according to this study. This coroborates my own research on surname diversity, which I found to be the highest in Italy, then France, then Belgium.

    The most homogeneous by far are the Albanians (14.5) and the Kosovars (9.9), followed by the Slovenes (5.0), the Russians (4.3), the Poles (3.8), and other Slavic peoples. It means that the Albanian and the Kosovan populations expanded quite recently from a much smaller source population.

    However the Albanians, Kosovars and Montenegrins have the highest percentage of shared IBD blocks with the rest of Europe. This is surprising considering the very different Y-DNA lineages found among these populations, notably the very high frequencies of E-V13 and J2b. Perhaps it is the result of the Balkans being the starting point of the Neolithic diffusion on the one side, and that the region was also invaded by all kinds of Europeans (Celts, Greeks, Goths, Slavs) who all left their genetic print in the Balkans. So it works both ways. All Europeans have a bit of Albanian, but all Albanians also have a bit of other Europeans in them.

    The Spaniards, the Cypriots, and oddly enough also the Macedonians appear to be the most isolated populations from the rest of Europe. They are closely followed by the French, Swiss, Italians, Portuguese and Turks.

    The study also supports a recent Slavic expansion, which not only includes the northern Slavs, but also the southern Slavs (Serbs, Croatians, Slovenes, Bulgars) who all share a lot of IBD blocks with other Slavic populations. That could mean that the Eastern European Y-haplogroup I2a1b-Din was spread around the Balkans during the Slavic migrations, and was not present in the region since the Mesolithic, Neolithic or even Bronze Age.
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    Thank you for this wonderful explanation Maciamo, I could not make time to read the whole paper.

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    What if these data merely represent the east-to-west migration tendency in the past of europe?
    A population closer to the root would have more diverse haplogroups than branching populations because the latter represent only samples of the root, more prone to genetic drift (source = haplogroup diversity).
    For the IBD blocks: assume the simplistic example:
    Given is a root population R and two branch populations R1, R2 (samples). The distance between R1 and R is much lower than between R1 and R2, because the path from R1 to R is only one step (R1-R), whereas the path from R1 to R2 is two steps (R1-R-R2).

    Now assume there are many branches R1..R9 from root R. It would look like R shares the most blocks with most of the population set (R1..R9), but in fact it is the other way around: Each of R1..R9 shares blocks with its root R due to one-step distance, but shares less with each other due to two-step distances.

    EDIT: In other words:
    - The higher the 'other' value is, the more root-like the population is.
    - And the higher the 'self' value is, the more likely a recent population growth happened in isolation

    Or is the above reasoning erroneous?

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    I guess the spanish group includes Basques on it, otherwise it would show more homogeneus and less isolated

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    Although it is probably not completely different from what Maciamo wrote.

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    @maciano

    Doesn't this sentence below indicate that the Albanians came out of their "hibernation" and went from a very very small tribe to a greater one after the collapse of the Goths in the Balkans?

    By far the highest rates of IBD within any populations is found between Albanian speakers—around 90 ancestors from 0–500 ya, and around 600 ancestors from 500–1,500 ya (so high that we left them out of Figure 5; see Figure S12). Beyond 1,500 ya, the rates of IBD drop to levels typical for other populations in the eastern grouping.

    and

    The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers (at least those represented in POPRES) are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years.


    To me, this clearly indicates that the albanians where some very smallish tribe stuck between the the many illyrian tribes, many thracian tribes and many epirote tribes. The only 3 tribes in the Kosovo area which where different linguistically and culturally according to ancient historians where the Dardanians, Paeonians and Macedonians

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    Quote Originally Posted by FBS View Post
    Thank you for this wonderful explanation Maciamo, I could not make time to read the whole paper.
    Same here. Thanks.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The most homogeneous by far are the Albanians (14.5) and the Kosovars (9.9), followed by the Slovenes (5.0), the Russians (4.3), the Poles (3.8), and other Slavic peoples. It means that the Albanian and the Kosovan populations expanded quite recently from a much smaller source population.

    However the Albanians, Kosovars and Montenegrins have the highest percentage of shared IBD blocks with the rest of Europe. This is surprising considering the very different Y-DNA lineages found among these populations, notably the very high frequencies of E-V13 and J2b.
    Thank You Maciamo. The above two statements are just another proof that the current Albanians are the remaining nucleus of a much larger collection of tribes who have now been assimilated and belong to other countries in terms of land and language. Did somebody say Illyrians and Thracians...

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    @maciano

    Doesn't this sentence below indicate that the Albanians came out of their "hibernation" and went from a very very small tribe to a greater one after the collapse of the Goths in the Balkans?

    By far the highest rates of IBD within any populations is found between Albanian speakers—around 90 ancestors from 0–500 ya, and around 600 ancestors from 500–1,500 ya (so high that we left them out of Figure 5; see Figure S12). Beyond 1,500 ya, the rates of IBD drop to levels typical for other populations in the eastern grouping.

    and

    The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers (at least those represented in POPRES) are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years.


    To me, this clearly indicates that the albanians where some very smallish tribe stuck between the the many illyrian tribes, many thracian tribes and many epirote tribes. The only 3 tribes in the Kosovo area which where different linguistically and culturally according to ancient historians where the Dardanians, Paeonians and Macedonians
    Yes, that's also how I understood it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Thank You Maciamo. The above two statements are just another proof that the current Albanians are the remaining nucleus of a much larger collection of tribes who have now been assimilated and belong to other countries in terms of land and language. Did somebody say Illyrians and Thracians...
    It would be a mistake to think that the Albanians remained "pure" since the Bronze Age. The Albanian Y-DNA pool undeniably incorporated Germanic (most likely Gothic) lineages as well, judging by the 2% of I1 and 1.5% of I2b. I don't have the breakdown of R1a and R1b subclades, but I would expect at least 5% of R1a+R1b to be of Germanic origin. So overall we are looking at approximately 8-9% of Germanic blood among Albanians. What seems to differentiate Albanians from their Balkanic neighbours is the lower incidence of Slavic lineages (R1a and I2a1b), although they are not absent from the admixture either. The Albanian expansion seems to have happened just after having assimilated Gothic and Slavic migrants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It would be a mistake to think that the Albanians remained "pure" since the Bronze Age.
    They haven't remained pure. Most of them are now part of other countries in the Balkan, so they have mixed and acquired another identity. Illyria+Thracia were 50-60% of the Balkans, now Albania+Kosovo is maybe 10% of it. This 10% that still speaks Albanian is the part that "assimilation" has not reached yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Albanian Y-DNA pool undeniably incorporated Germanic (most likely Gothic) lineages as well, judging by the 2% of I1 and 1.5% of I2b. I don't have the breakdown of R1a and R1b subclades, but I would expect at least 5% of R1a+R1b to be of Germanic origin. So overall we are looking at approximately 8-9% of Germanic blood among Albanians.
    That's very good that you also found out that Albanians have some Germanic blood. I have noticed it is much more visible in the South. My data for South-Albania that I collect indicate, 9% I1, 3% I2b, 14% I2a2b, 10% R1b+R1a from West Europe. Total is about 36% Western/Nordic y-dna. If you factor in that the non-latin part of the Albanian language has mostly Nordic substrata, the full size of the "iceberg" starts to become visible. Basically, Illyrians+Thracians were "Germanic" Indo-Europeans who mixed with local Pelasgians in the Bronze Age/Early Iron. I don't have a published study, so anyone can choose to believe this or not, but in my mind I have no shade of doubt about this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Thank You Maciamo. The above two statements are just another proof that the current Albanians are the remaining nucleus of a much larger collection of tribes who have now been assimilated and belong to other countries in terms of land and language. Did somebody say Illyrians and Thracians...
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It would be a mistake to think that the Albanians remained "pure" since the Bronze Age. The Albanian Y-DNA pool undeniably incorporated Germanic (most likely Gothic) lineages as well, judging by the 2% of I1 and 1.5% of I2b. I don't have the breakdown of R1a and R1b subclades, but I would expect at least 5% of R1a+R1b to be of Germanic origin. So overall we are looking at approximately 8-9% of Germanic blood among Albanians. What seems to differentiate Albanians from their Balkanic neighbours is the lower incidence of Slavic lineages (R1a and I2a1b), although they are not absent from the admixture either. The Albanian expansion seems to have happened just after having assimilated Gothic and Slavic migrants.
    Interesting, two different conclusions.

    For Albanian it is a proof of being old european stock from which all europeans come from.

    For Outsider, Albania is like a woman who slept around and now has children related to all europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    For Outsider, Albania is like a woman who slept around and now has children related to all europeans.
    But it hasn't, in fact what is now called Albania has slept around way less that everybody else in Europe (since the Iron Age at least). The proof is that Albanians have by far the highest number of common ancestors with each-other. What makes it a source of genes is that also a lot of other Europeans have a good number of common ancestors with Albanians. It is like the source of a stream, water from the source reaches everybody, but water from everybody doesn't reach the source. The source is "ignorant" of what is out there. The Albanians that have mixed do not call themselves Albanian anymore, so this study would pick them up under other nationalities, now they're under ex-Jugoslavia, Greece, Italy etc.
    Who "slept around" would be Italy or France with the lowest number of common ancestors within. Historically Italy has been a collection of Celts, Greeks, Illyrians, Etruscans, Germans etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    ...Basically, Illyrians+Thracians were "Germanic" Indo-Europeans who mixed with local Pelasgians in the Bronze Age/Early Iron. I don't have a published study, so anyone can choose to believe this or not, but in my mind I have no shade of doubt about this.
    I agree very much with your summary, except for part of the above quote. The mentioned I1 and some of the I2 strains would not really fit into the "Germanic Indo-European" mold that you speak of. I would think it more accurate to say that there was an input of Germanic Indo-European that had previously mixed with a Meso or even Paleo group of Norse.

    I know that sounds nitpicking, but I wouldn't say these hg. I percentages would fit into I.E. classifications.

    **EDIT**
    I could also see the Pelasgians having a Nordic/hap. I1 component. I think hg. I used the rivers of Europe like we use highways today and that this has been going on for quite some time. These older native populations were much thinner but also very mobile.

    Also, I'm assuming you include Dacians in your Illyrian umbrella?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    But it hasn't, in fact what is now called Albania has slept around way less that everybody else in Europe (since the Iron Age at least). The proof is that Albanians have by far the highest number of common ancestors with each-other. What makes it a source of genes is that also a lot of other Europeans have a good number of common ancestors with Albanians. It is like the source of a stream, water from the source reaches everybody, but water from everybody doesn't reach the source. The source is "ignorant" of what is out there. The Albanians that have mixed do not call themselves Albanian anymore, so this study would pick them up under other nationalities, now they're under ex-Jugoslavia, Greece, Italy etc.
    Who "slept around" would be Italy or France with the lowest number of common ancestors within. Historically Italy has been a collection of Celts, Greeks, Illyrians, Etruscans, Germans etc.
    This is a known fact that albanians (real identity - shqiptars) married or shall we say slept with their sisters, brothers or cousins, also known as incest. Thats why they have most common ancestors. But the truth about who are most pure country is they who match less with other countries population.

    The 'self' column shows the number of shared IBD ("identical by descent") blocks with other individuals of that country. The 'other' column compares IBD blocks with other countries. The higher the value the more recent the common shared ancestry.
    The most homogeneous by far are the Albanians (14.5) and the Kosovars (9.9), followed by the Slovenes (5.0), the Russians (4.3), the Poles (3.8), and other Slavic peoples. It means that the Albanian and the Kosovan populations expanded quite recently from a much smaller source population.
    However the Albanians, Kosovars and Montenegrins have the highest percentage of shared IBD blocks with the rest of Europe.
    The Spaniards, the Cypriots, and oddly enough also the Macedonians appear to be the most isolated populations from the rest of Europe. They are closely followed by the French, Swiss, Italians, Portuguese and Turks.

    Conclusion:
    Most isolated = Most original people of the country. (Spaniards, Cypriots, Macedonians)
    Most homogeneous = Most incest people. (Albanians)

    Last edited by DejaVu; 29-06-13 at 22:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    This is a known fact that albanians (real identity - shqiptars) married or shall we say slept with their sisters, brothers or cousins, also known as incest. Thats why they have most common ancestors. But the truth about who are most pure country is they who match less with other countries population.
    Why is this user is allowed to post such stupid anti Albanian on here, this is not the first time the user done it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    I agree very much with your summary, except for part of the above quote. The mentioned I1 and some of the I2 strains would not really fit into the "Germanic Indo-European" mold that you speak of. I would think it more accurate to say that there was an input of Germanic Indo-European that had previously mixed with a Meso or even Paleo group of Norse.

    I know that sounds nitpicking, but I wouldn't say these hg. I percentages would fit into I.E. classifications.

    **EDIT**
    I could also see the Pelasgians having a Nordic/hap. I1 component. I think hg. I used the rivers of Europe like we use highways today and that this has been going on for quite some time. These older native populations were much thinner but also very mobile.

    Also, I'm assuming you include Dacians in your Illyrian umbrella?
    As per the recent finds by KenN that I1 is no longer classed germanic or nordic but basically west-baltic from pomerania and prussia, then we can conclude that the goths took I1 to the balkans.
    (seems like I was correct in that the goths where baltic people, but also seems that I was wrong when I thought they where in majority R1a.)
    Brings us to the conclusion as per other thread that albanians coastal are J2 and inland E in majority

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    This is a known fact that albanians (real identity - shqiptars) married or shall we say slept with their sisters, brothers or cousins, also known as incest. Thats why they have most common ancestors. But the truth about who are most pure country is they who match less with other countries population.
    I say more like the tibetan people, they never came down from the mountains to mix with the locals.
    your comments are a little bit harsh especially for a swede!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I say more like the tibetan people, they never came down from the mountains to mix with the locals.
    your comments are a little bit harsh especially for a swede!
    My guess is he is fyrom. Not a swede.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post

    Also, I'm assuming you include Dacians in your Illyrian umbrella?
    correct. They would have been mixed with each-other more so than with others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Albanian Y-DNA pool undeniably incorporated Germanic (most likely Gothic) lineages as well, judging by the 2% of I1 and 1.5% of I2b.
    Where are you getting this low numbers for Albanian speakers, in almost every study i've seen, Kosovar Albanians, Macedonian Albanians but also Albanian from Albania the I1 + I2b ratio have been around 6-7 %

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    For example according to this paper I-M223 in Albanians is even higher than Swedes which is odd to say the least...

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...996/table/TB1/

    It's curious to see that Arbereshe community in Italy has the same percentages of I-M223

    3.8% of I-M223 + 2.8% of I-M253 which is 6.6% and other studies show the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It means that the Albanian and the Kosovan populations expanded quite recently from a much smaller source population.
    just because they are homogeneous it does not mean that at all
    that is just a hypothesis from you

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