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View Poll Results: What is your opinion on arguments mtDNA H did not spread in Europe in the Neolithic

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  • 100% agree with The main mtDNA H subclades in Europe are rarely found in the Middle East

    1 20.00%
  • partly agree with The main mtDNA H subclades in Europe are rarely found in the Middle East

    2 40.00%
  • Undecided on the main mtDNA H subclades in Europe are rarely found in the Middle East

    0 0%
  • Dont agree with the main mtDNA H subclades in Europe are rarely found in the Middle East

    0 0%
  • 100% agree with not enough research on Pre historic European DNA, only ones with few H are mentioned

    3 60.00%
  • partly agree to not enough research on Pre historic European DNA only ones with few H are mentioned

    2 40.00%
  • Undecided on not enough research on Pre historic European DNA only ones with few H are mentioned

    0 0%
  • Dont agree with not enough research on Pre historic European DNA only ones with few H are mentioned

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  • 100% agree with It is impossible for Bell Beaker to have spread mtDNA H

    1 20.00%
  • partly agree with It is impossible for Bell Beaker to have spread mtDNA H

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  • Undecided on It is impossible for Bell Beaker to have spread mtDNA H

    1 20.00%
  • Dont agree with It is impossible for Bell Beaker to have spread mtDNA H

    0 0%
  • 100% agree with Europeans have different mtDNA H subclades from each other

    2 40.00%
  • partly agree with Europeans have different mtDNA H subclades from each other

    1 20.00%
  • Undecided on Europeans have different mtDNA H subclades from each other

    0 0%
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Thread: Strong Evidence mtDNA H did not spread in Neolithic and was already popular in Europe

  1. #51
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    Finnsih and sami people are really the last mesloithic europeans left their ancestors where not really affected by the neloithic age like western europe was that is why they have almost all north european austomnal dna so in my opinon finns dont count

    i was only looking at western europe in non balken eastern europe med is around 20% so your right this probably means eastern europeans kept more hunter gather ancestry at least the ones north of bulgairia like polish, russian, ukrainean in Y DNA if u take away all Indo European R1b M73, R1b L23 decendants, R1a1a1b anf if u take away all recent mi8d eastern Y DNA in eastern europe like J1,J2, E1b1b V13 eastern europeans would have almost only mesloithic european Y DNA I2a1b i made a thread where i showed all of the non Indo European and non recent mid eastern Y DNA In europe eastern europeans and scandnaviens where teh only ones that had almost only European y DNA I western Europe was mainly G2a http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...136#post411136

    so that makes sense to me that eastern Europeans have alot less Mediterranean which came from G2a and other Neloithic people who where more popular in western Europe but still La Brana is good evidence europe orignalley was only north european in austomnal DNA modern iberians have about 50-60% med in globe13 La Brana had only 24% and for somereason the G2a farmers like Otzie had 59% and 64% meditreaen i mean come on where do u think the med in europe comes from it is not from the hunter gathers

    It seems u people forget that La Brana lived in teh Neloithic age he was one of teh last hunter gathers in western EUrope most of spain was already conquered by Mediterranean G2a farmers we have 3 Y DNA G2a samples from farmers in southern Spain from 7,000ybp when La Brana was alive La Brana's people where conquered in probably teh next few 100 years he would have already had some farmer blood that is why he had some meditreaen

    and from 21 Y DNA samples in trellis southern France (near northern Spain where La Brana came from) from 5,000ybp that is 2,000 years after La Brana 19 had Mediterranean farmer Y DNA G2a only two had Y DNA from La brana people which is I2a1a1 they had the special subclade only found in modern Iberians and sardinens it seems very simple to me the native hunter gathers in Spain, France, and Italy who had Y DNA I2a1a and almost only north European austomnal DNA where conquered by Y DNA G2a farmers who had mainly Mediterranean austomnal DNA from 10,000-6,000ybp it was not a peaceful exchange of idea to me it seem the hunter gathers and farmers saw each other as two differnt people groups and the farmers killed many of the hunter gathers off otzie a framer from alps italy 5,300ybp in globe13 had 59.5% med a farmer in south swedan from 5,000ybp had 64% med to me it seems it doesnt matter where they traveled they kept to themselves and did not inter marry because they knew they where different because they where farmers

    and in modern iberians u can see they have mainly meditreaen at about 50-60% which means they probably have mainly farmer ancestry which means they farmers nearlly killed of the hunter gathers also in sardine meditreaen is just as popular in sitaly it is only 40% because tehy have 20-24% west asian and 15-18% southwest asian they inter married with mid easterns in greco roman age but like 4,000ybp they had 50-60% like iberians

    the reason why french, germans, british do not have 50-60% med is because after teh farmers conquered teh Y DNA I2a1a people in france the I2a2 people in Germany, Britian, and ireland teh Indo Europeans came from russia and ukriane and killed off alot of the farmers about 5,000-4,000ybp we have some DNA froms ome of teh earliest Indo Europeans in north pontic steppe(central Russia) from 6,000ybp they had pale skin genes like modern europeans not a suprise but the important [art os they had by far mainly brown eyes way more than most modern europeans teh reason why this is important is because peopel in that area today have 80-90% brown eyes most of Europe has 70% or less and these ethnic groups in that area today like Udmurts and Bashkirs are not slavic russian we dont know really where they come from just they have lived there for thousands of years this means they almost defintley come straight from some of the earliest Indo Europeans their austomnal DNA is almost completely north european at about 70-80% in globe13 that means the Idno Europeans where mainly north European in austomnal DNA so they conquered the farmers in Germany, France, Britain, and Ireland that is why north European is more popular in those pales than Iberia

    also there is a huge connection with red hair and proto Italo Celtic, proto Germanic Y DNA R1b L11 which takes up 50% of western European Y DNA the only area in Europe red hair exists is in the terriotory of these languages and of R1b L11 except for Udmurts in central Russia the more R1b the more red hair in Europe this link kind of explains it http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/orig...red_hair.shtml so what i am thinking is the Indo European brought red hair to western Europe and more north European austomanl DNA and i think the Udmurts who have the highest amount f red hair in the world at 15-20% and they live in the proto Indo European heartland are good evidence that is where red hair period might come from also teh Indo Iranien Indo Europeans who went to asia rom central Russia about 5,000-4,000ybp we have remains of redheads from them that are over 3,000 years old and many indo iraniens in central asia where known for red hair like sythiens and still today u find red hair in indo iranien speaking Kurds in Iraq, syria, turkey in Indo Iranien Kalash in Pakistan so that is more evidence R1b Indo Europeans that went to western Europe had alot of red hair

    so modern Iberians are a mix between La Brana's people( from before 10,000ybp) and incoming farmers from Otzie's people(10,000-6,000ybp) but they come mainly from Otzie's people, modern Italiens are a mix between La Brana peopel or who ever the hunter gasome of later mid eastern ancestry from greco roman age (3,500-1,500ybp) modern French, Germans, British, and Irish come from a mix between La Brana people(from before 10,000ybp) and invading farmers from otzie people (10,000-6,000ybo) but mainly from Otzie's people then they also have a pretty big sized chunk of ancestry from invading Indo Europeans who came from central Russia(5,000-4,000ybp)

    modern Scandinavians are also from a mix of LA Brana people(from before 10,000ybp) and invading farmers from otzie people(10,000-6,000ybp) but they come mainly from native hunter gathers then they also have a big sized chunk of inavading Germanic speakers (4,000ybp) modern non Balken eastern Europeans come from a mix between native hunter gathers(before 10,000ybp) and invading farmers (10,000-6,000ybp) but mainlyf rom teh natuve hunter gathers then they also have some invading Baltoc Slavic Indo European ancestry(6,000-5,000ybp) but it is hard to measure how much Yugoslaviens come from a mix of native hunter gather (before 10,000ybp) invading farmer (6,000-10,000ybp) butmore from hunter gathers then tehy also have some from mid easterns in grecop roman age (3,500-1,500ybp) Greeks and Bulgairens come from a mix of native hunter gathers(before10,000ybp) and ivading farmer(6,000-10,000ybp) but more from hunter gather then tehy have a pretty big and signifcant chunk from mid easterns in greco roman age (3,500-1,500ybp)

    so u can simplify almost all europeans ancestry into hunter gather, farmer, indo european, and mid eastern in greco roman age what surprised me is i heard the estimate age for blonde hair is one person who lived 11,000ybp i think that is way to young of a date because non balken eastern Europeans have uslley 40% or more blonde hair but are unrelated to Scandinavians who have over 60% and it has been proven Scandinavians settled Scandinavia over 10,000ybp they are from the first settlers Finnish speak a language that is unrelated to German and came from siberia 8,000ybp so i mean from what we know non balken eastern Europeans are very unrelated to Scandinavians maybe they had common ancestry like 12,000-20,000ybp but both have almost half blonde hair then Germans, french, British, and Irish get their blonde hair which ranges from 30-50% from hunter gathers that had lived there for over 10,000 years and from what we know teh only europpeans over 10,000ybo that may have had no blond ehair are la branas people in spain and italy and again from what we know are very unrelated to eastern Europeans and Scandinavians so dates they give i think for DNA haplogroups are also way to young

  2. #52
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    I don't deny that the majority of Atlantic_med spread in the neolithic, although it is not clear from where. There was already slight admixture before, possibly in the epipaleolithic or mesolithic, as can be seen in 6%-10% in Gotland hunter gatherers and today Saami and Finns. That means that paleolithic north-europeans had more contact to peoples of the Mediterranean component rather than others. It is possible as you say that Mediterranean component came 100% only by neolithic farmers, but I don't think it was 100% but rather 70%-80% because Mediterranean component is very very widespread in Europe. I think this is a hint for a very old age. I think there were already med. like hunter-gatherers in Cyprus, Greece or even Italy or Tunisia at least during epipaleolithic.

  3. #53
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    i dont think tha fact that hunter gathers in gotland had about 10% med in globe13 is good evidence it was in Europe before the nelooithic age because they lived right next to that farmer who had 64% med they defintley could have inter married and aventulley the hunter gathers and farmers did inter marry that is why modern Scandinavians have 20-30% med both LA Brana nd the hunter gathers in swedan lived right next to meditreaen farmers so it is easy to explian why they had some med and same with finnish and sami because they live right next to other scandnaviens who have 20-30% med

    and yes the reason med is so spread out in Europe is because it is old it goes all the way back to the begging of the Neolithic age 10,000ybp i think the Neolithic age is far enough back for med to spread in Europe because it spread with farming which we know eventually all of Europe became farmers if not al med in europe comes from neloithic maybe some does but very very little i doubt if any the only thing that will prove that it was already in europe is 15,000 year old remains that have med also something that stunned me sardne people have 70% med in globe13 and very little west asian compared to other italiens and they have about 7% southwest asian like farmer in swedan from 5,000ybp theiur austomnal dna is like identical to Otzie and the farmer from swedan and they have 40% Y DNA I2a1a and 15% G2a both of these Y DNA haplogroups have been found in Neolithic Europe also Sardine did not become Indo European till Rome conquered them and they have almost no modern Italian ancestry they are like the last completely true Neolithic western Europeans they have been isolated in the sardine island that is why they are otzie and the farmer from Sweden's closet modern relative and Finnish and Sami are the last Mesolithic or Paloithic Europeans left

    it seems there was a major north european migration into western europe after the neloithic age after 5,000ybpi think it is the Indo Europeans the timming is exactley when teh Indo European began and like i said about 6,000 year old indo europeans had mainly brown eyes like teh people who live there today which coudl mean teh modern people in that area decend froms ome of teh earliest inod euopeans and the modern people in that area have over 70% north european so teh Indo Europeans would have had over 70% north europeans nd that the Indo Europeans that went to asia even though they where a different ethnic group than the ones in russia 6,000ybp they where still by far mainly north european and the ones that went to western europe brought red hair which is not exactly Mediterranean but maybe it was not the indo europeans

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    i dont think tha fact that hunter gathers in gotland had about 10% med in globe13 is good evidence it was in Europe before the nelooithic age because they lived right next to that farmer who had 64% med they defintley could have inter married and aventulley the hunter gathers and farmers did inter marry that is why modern Scandinavians have 20-30% med both LA Brana nd the hunter gathers in swedan lived right next to meditreaen farmers so it is easy to explian why they had some med and same with finnish and sami because they live right next to other scandnaviens who have 20-30% med
    Ok, let's wait for more evidence to come.

    it seems there was a major north european migration into western europe after the neloithic age after 5,000ybpi think it is the Indo Europeans the timming is exactley when teh Indo European began and like i said about 6,000 year old indo europeans had mainly brown eyes like teh people who live there today which coudl mean teh modern people in that area decend froms ome of teh earliest inod euopeans and the modern people in that area have over 70% north european so teh Indo Europeans would have had over 70% north europeans nd that the Indo Europeans that went to asia even though they where a different ethnic group than the ones in russia 6,000ybp they where still by far mainly north european and the ones that went to western europe brought red hair which is not exactly Mediterranean but maybe it was not the indo europeans
    Yes, many IE tribes were probably mostly North-european and paleolithic themselves, but they were not all equal. The reported brown-eyed ones are likely not the only IEans. There is also evidence of part-mongoloid IEans in some other places and I'd not be surprised to find also some IEans to be very similar to Balts or Scandos in the steppes or even southern like Italians or Anatolians. We should not rely too much on one single burial site only.

  5. #55
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    i know i said teh 4,000 and 3,800 year old early Indo Iranien Indo Europeans in south siberia had mainly light hair and eyes and some had red hair also they have many indo iraniens like sythiens in asia from 3,000-2,000ybp they ad about 60% light hair and 70% light eyes tehy tested early sythiens from tagar russia who had light eyes to the dar eyed indo europeans in central russia from 6,000ybp and they said teh two groups where very unrelated so the tagar russians reprsent all indo iraniens but the indo iraniens came from teh same source as those 6,000 year old indo europeans this means that the early indo Europeans 6,000ybp who took up almost all of Ukriane and central Russia where many differnt ethnic groups who where united by culture, religion, and Y DNA R1b M73, R1b L23, and R1a1a1b and since the Indo Iraneins liek Sythiens where known for red hair u still see red hair in indo iranien speaking ethnic groups in areas like pakistan, syria, and tukey some of the earliest indo irnien remains had red hair it seems red hair was popular for Indo Iraniens and since R1b L11 and its subclades in Europe are teh only areas red hair exist and they seem connected it would make sense teh IdnoE uropeans that went to western europe also had red hair and since the Uralic non Indo European Udmurt people have 15-20% red hair and they live near where indo Europeans orignated that means there is even a better chance the indo europeans that went to western europe had red hair so that also means tehy where from a relted ethnic group to indo Iranians and who knows what ethnic group went to eastern europe and spread Balto Slavic languages or who went to Yugoslavia and spread Iyllian languages or who went to greece to sprea Greek language or who went to Bulgaria to spread Thracian and Dacien languages the Indo Europeans 6,000ybp where not one ethnic group but i still think that those mysterious non slavic non indo european tribes like bashkirs and udmurts come straight from some of those proto Indo Europeans just they where conqyered by Uralics and Turks in the last 6,000 years

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    Firehaired could you please post the reference for the 26000 old H result from wales?
    Thanks very much.

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    In recent Mathiesen et al paper, one of the iron gates HG sample wich is R1b has an mt haplogroup H13, wich is the same than the georgian Kotias Klde HG J2a with H13c. Both are dated from the same period of 7000 BC. Wathever the origin of H and more precisely her subclades, after the LGM, a lot of gene flow and exchange with populations had to be appened. I'm definitely less and less focus on y-dna haplogroups for trying to prove any admixture correlations.

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    I strongly disagree with the initial poster that all H wintered over in Iberia. 23andme has a map showing H moving directly north into Finland and Scandinavia from the ME. I've completed a full sequence and all my EXACT matches are in those countries. Not even a genetic difference of 1or 2 in Britain

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