Fire Haired
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I have noticed people in this website assume that mtDNA H was not popular in Europe till the Neolithic age and it was spread by mid eastern farmers and Bell Beaker culture I have read news articles that don't even consider H was in Europe before the Neolithic age to many people assume mtDNA H spread in Europe during the Neolithic and did not exist before that
So, these are arguments I have created that argue against the so strongly believed theory that mtDNA H spread in Europe during the Neolithic age
I want to know what peoples think about this so please vote on the poll and post your opinion
There is not Enough Investigation pre Neolithic European mtDNA samples and people only mention the ones that don't have alot of H
mtDNA H was 41.52% from from 236 mtDNA samples in Iberia from 7,000- 4,340ybp http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...eople-belived-to-be-very-early-indo-europeans
and in the same article i showed that mtDNA H was 46.6% from 14 mtDNA sample from pre Neolithic Iberian s 20,000-7,500ybp from 3 mtDNA 15,000 year old mtDNA samples in northern spain 2 had mtDNA H one had H6 from 9 mtDNA 9,500-7,500 year old samples in Portugal 5 out of 9 had mtDNA H two had H1b which orignated in Iberia
also the oldest mtDNA samples in Iberia from 20,000-18,000years ago one had for sure U and for the other all they know is it was in the RO family mtDNA RO is the grandmother of H today it is almost only found in Arabia and it is over 50,000 years old and probably never migrated to Europe but its daughter mtDNA HV did and so did H so this sample most likely had either mtDNA HV or H also this sample had the R* CRS muation which is usulley reported as mtDNA H but they just did not have enough DNA information to say it was for sure but it probably was H
also a 26,000 year old mtDNA sample from Wales also had the R* CRS muation which means it almost definitely had mtDNA H and now that the technology for receiving DNA from ancient remains is getting much better maybe they can do another test on this remains from Wales the one from Spain this will confirm that we have
two 25,000 year old mtDNA samples from central Russia most likely brother and sister had the CRS and mutation 161219A which means they where for sure mtDNA H17
and 28,000 year old mtDNA sample on the south tip of Italy was for sure mtDNA H and it was not contamination because all of the people that where near it or had contact mtDNA did not match.
so that means we have 4 mtDNA samples in Europe from over 25,000ybp with mtDNA H in Italy, Wales, and Russia and one even had a subclade and we also have 3 mtDNA mtDNA H samples in Europe from 20,000-15,000ybp all in Spain this means mtDNA H has been in Europe for about 35,000 years
i took a National Genographic DNA test and i have mtDNA H64 they tried to explain my DNA story and said mtDNA H orignated in the middle east just 20,000-25,000ybp why would they say that if we have four over 25,000 year mtDNA H samples from all over europe one even had H17 this means mtDNA H probably originated in the middle east over 40,000 years ago it is nearly twice as old as DNA experts predicted i think this also means age predictions on DNA haplogroups are not always accurate usulley they ave a dat at least 5,000 years to young because they also saud mtDNA V is only 9,000 years ago in Spain and migrated acroos Europe and north Africa just 7,000ybp then we find four 12,000 year old mtDNA V samples in north Africa.
here is all the mtDNA samples from Paloithci Europe 37,985-12,300ybp there are 20
U=12 60%(U5=6(U5b=3(U5b1=2, U5b2b1=1), U2/3/4/7/8/9=1, U2=1), H=7 35%(almost defintley H=2, H*unknown subclade=2, H17=2, H6=1), HV=1 5%
and mtDNA H1 and H3 are the most popular H subclades in Europe and northwest Africa they all come from a huge migration that started in north Spain about 15,000ybp also mtDNA V and some U5b subclades also migrated with that group from northern Spain.
from 22 mtDNA samples that are dated as 12,000 years old in Morocco which is far northwest North Africa
H/V/U=12, H=4, H/V=3, V=2
mtDNA V is only 15,000 years old and originated in northern Spain it is apart of that group that migrated across Europe and north west Africa 10,000-15,000ybp so these are remains of the ones that went to north Africa so really we have mtDNA samples from Mesolithic Spaniards who immigrated to north Africa only one had the possibility of being mtDNA U which is strange compared to other Mesolithic mtDNA samples all of them had the possibility of being H or V four where for sure H and two where for sure V i am guessing the rest where H but who knows i think this and the other Mesolithic and Paleolithic Iberian remains are good evidence that mtDNA H was dominant in Iberia at least 15,000ybp and the fact that about 30-50% of Iberian mtDNA are H1 and H3 which originated in Iberia about 15,000ybp
I also made a thread http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...25-4-025-year-old-mtDNA-and-Y-DNA-from-German
which shows that from 86 mtDNA samples all came from Germany except two came from Denmark from 6,625- 4,025 ybp 40.7% had mtDNA H just like modern Europeans and H1 and H3 where th main subclades even though most where not well enough preserved to show subclades this means even back then most of central European mtDNA H was H1 and H3 like today and originated in Spain 15,000ybp
also the pre Bell Beaker Germany remains also had mainly mtDNA H and the same subclades so that mean Bell Beaker probably did not spread mtDNA H in central Europe and there is no way they spread it to Scandinavia, Britain, or any where east of Germany because Bell Beaker culture never expanded there so i think Bell Beaker is not the reason mtDNA H is so popular in Europe
only about 24% of the small sample size of 29 5,000 year old mtDNA samples from Trellis southwestern France had mtDNA H but all had European H1 and H3 which take up 20-30% of mtDNA in that area today.
The main mtDNA H subclades in Europe are rarly found in the middle east
mtDNA H1 and H3 takes up about 30-75% of the H subclades in central, western, and northern Europe and are also the most popular H subclades in all of Europe they take up about 10-30% of their total mtDNA in central, western, and northern Europe in the Middle east mtDNA H1 and H3 only take up about 5-10% of their H subclades and take up usulley less than 1-5% of their total mtDNA and almost all experts believe both mtDNA H1 and H3 originated in northern Spain about 15,000ybp and spread across Europe 10,000-15,000ybp they call it the Iberian refuge http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/1/19.full
so that means mtDNA H1 and H3 where already 10-30% or more in central and western Europe before the Neolithic age and there is no way they came from middle eastern farmers and they expanded during the Mesolithic age 10,000-15,000ybp not the Neolithic 6,000-10,000ybp
also mtDNA H6 which takes up 5-40% of mtDNA in volga Russia and far eastern Europe it also is believed to have originated in Europe about 15,000-20,000ybp and a 15,000 year old remain in northern Spain had H6 and mtDNA H6 is actually very spread out in all of Europe and also found in the middle east it is probably one of the oldest H subclades
mtDNA H5 and H13 are about 10% of H subclades in the middle east but they are very very very rarely ever found in central, western, northern Europe at the most they reach 3% of the mtDNA H subclades they are commonly found though in north Italy and eastern Europe they usulley hit about 5-15% of H subclades in eastern Europe sometimes more popular than in the middle east but in some areas they are less than 1% of the H subclades.
there are many H subclades found in Europe and the middle east but i could not find any information of where they originated or how old they are so right now i cant say which mtDNA H subclades in Europe are from the middle east but in general most Europeans have mtDNA H subclades did not come from middle eastern farmers.
and if there is any one with information out there on where H13, H5, H7, H9, H15, H16, H18, H11, H10, H20, H21, H4 originated that would be extremely helpful
It is impossible for Bell Beaker to Have spread mtDNA H
I have heard many people say Bell Beaker spread mtDNA H in Europe but to me that sound impossible sure Bell Beaker probably started in Iberia where mtDNA H has been popular for 15,000 years and their culture spread across all of western Europe between just 4,800-3,800ybp there are no real signs Bell Beaker spread their culture from Spain by conquering western Europe all they did was spread a culture and bell beaker culture is identified only by a type of pottery style that is all it may have not even been a culture just a type of pottery that spread but lets say it was a culture that started in Spain and conquered most of western Europe when people conquer the native women are not killed off the native men are mainly because they are the ones that fight in the war the invading army replaces the old Y DNA not mtDNA so the Bell Beaker would have done something from what we know no people group has done in history and Internationally only kill off the women and also Bell Beaker never expanded to Scandinavia or east of Germany but in those areas mtDNA H is still 40% so Bell Beaker is not a good explination and H1 and H3 are still the most popular mtDNA H subclades in areas bell Beaker never spread so to me the Bell Beaker argument does not have good evidence just assumptions
and Bell Beaker was actulley conquered by proto Germanic speakers and proto Italoi Celtic it is explained in this link https://www.google.com/url? sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Feurope%2FHaplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml&ei=We3IUYTMFeGqyAHts4GAAQ&usg=AFQjCNHXsHj4Btu0ZPVHyQKiyCoKbeHnKw
Europeans have Different mtDNA H subclades from each other
eastern Europe has very diffenrt mtDNA H subclades than western Europe in eastern Europe H13 and H5 are very popular but they are almost never found in western Europe in western Europe H1 and H3 are very popular but not nearly as popular as in eastern Europe it is true most of Europe has 40% mtDNA H but different regions have different subclades which means it did not spread in the same event and that it is just luck most of Europe turned out to have 40% mtDNA H eastern Europe has many similar subclades as the middle east which could mean its spread in the Neolithic age but western, central, and northern Europe do not so obviously mtDNA H was spread in western, central, and northern Europe from the same event probably Iberian refuge 10,000-15,000ybp but mtDNA H is eastern Europe had to of been spread by a different even they do have some H1 and H3 which means they got some b fro Iberian refuge but since they has many similar subclades to mid easterns it probably spread from the middle east. but mtDNA H1 and H3 are still the most popular mtDNA H subclades in all of Europe which probably means the Iberian refuge made a huge impact on European mtDNA
also another big thing is a 28,000 year old mtDNA sample from south tip Italy, two 25,000 year old mtDNA samples in central russia have H17, one 26,000 year old sample in wales most likley had mtDNA H it defintley did not have U, 20,000-18,000 year old mtDNa sample in south tip Spain also almost defintley had mtDNA H, and two mtDNA samples from norther Spain had mtDNA H one had H6 had H so it probably first arrived in Europe over 35,000ybp
what i want people to know is mtDNA H is alot more popular in Paleolithic and Mesloithci European remains than advertised and mtDNA U is not 100% like the impression they give mtDNA H also shows up in Mesolithic European remains all of this proves mtDNA H was deifntley present in pre Neolithic Europe and was actulley very popular and most mtDNA H subclades in Europe originated in Europe most mtDNA mid eastern farmers brought was T, X, K, J orignalley i think Europe was just U, H, and HV but i may be wrong they might find a T or K in pre Neolithic European remains
so lets say most mtDNA and Y DNA haplogroups in europe arrived in the Neolithic age but still Europeans ancestry is from Paleolithic Europeans modern Europeans have a unique austomnal DNA type some tests call it north European other Atlantic Baltic because it is mainly in those areas but since Europeans are dominated by a austomnal DNA type that originated in Europe almost definitely in the Paleolithic age that means most of Europeans ancestry are the so called Cro Magnon or people that arrived over 30,000ybp
and when people say well none of the 31 Neolithic European Y DNA samples had R1a or R1b and 50% of modern Europeans have them this does not mean Europeans did not arrive in Europe till 5,000ybp because Y DNA and mtDNA are just direct lineages there are black people with European Y DNA but they are only about 5% European this is because their great great great great grandfather was European so it does not tell your full ancestry the Indo Europeans brought R1a and R1b to Europe 6,000-4,000ybp in June 2013 they released some DNA information from 6,000 and 5,000 year old remains from some of the very first Indo European cultures in the Pontic Steppes they said there is no doubt they where a European population they had all of the some light skin genes that dominate Europeans today and they also said they had mainly brown eyes and 4,000 and 3,8000 year old DNA from Indo Iranian Indo Europeans in south Siberia and west china they spread the Indo European language in asia they also had the same white skin genes as modern Europeans and had mainly light eyes and hair and some even had red hair. what i am trying to say is the Indo Europeans that spread the language in Europe and Asia where ethnically European just like the European people they conquered so even before R1a and R1b where popular in Europe the people where already Europeans and the main ancestors of modern ones
Also austomnal DNA from 7,000 year old late Mesolithic hunter gather in Spain with mtDNA U5b had more north European than most modern Europeans and the only true Mesolithic Europeans left are Finnish and Sami people in Scandinavia they have almost only north European globe13 austomnal DNA and the speak a uralic language which according to Maciamo migration map arrived in Scandinavia from north east Asia about 7,000-8,000ybp and since Sami have about 50% mtDNA V and 50% mtDNA U5b and they have unique subclades which are about 8,000 years old this means Sami, Finnish, and all Scandinavians come from Mesolithic hunter gathers who came there at least 10,000ybp since they where already spread out 8,000ybp and Sami and Finnish people's ancestors where not affected by the Neolithic age like other Europeans that is why they have almost no none European austomnal DNA so they are really the last living Mesolithic Europeans and they are the closet modern relatives to Genomes of the Mesolithic hunter gather in Spain and two 5,000 year old hunter gathers from Sweden and they don't look any different from the rest of Europe they actually are paler and have light hair and eyes than any other people in Europe so the European ethnicity is not defined by mtDNA H and did not arrive in the Neolithic age the part of Europeans blood that makes them European arrived in Europe at least 35,000ybp-50,000ybp most of Europeans mtDNA any ways traces back to ancestors that arrived over 35,000ybp
the latest mtDNA haplogroup to arrive in Europe was H and it came 33,000-36,000ybp but mtDNA U5 arrived 50,000-60,000ybp
Here are some resources i used
http://www.genebase.com/doc/mtdnaHaplogroup_H_Subclade_Distribution_Map.pdf
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_mtdna_haplogroups_frequency.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker...ldinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0002700
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080715204741.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_DNA-tested_mummies
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...h4DABg&usg=AFQjCNEFeH0zRH5_qmu0pOKphS2kkGf_vA
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.es/p/ancient-mtdna-maps-of-europe.html
So, these are arguments I have created that argue against the so strongly believed theory that mtDNA H spread in Europe during the Neolithic age
I want to know what peoples think about this so please vote on the poll and post your opinion
There is not Enough Investigation pre Neolithic European mtDNA samples and people only mention the ones that don't have alot of H
mtDNA H was 41.52% from from 236 mtDNA samples in Iberia from 7,000- 4,340ybp http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...eople-belived-to-be-very-early-indo-europeans
and in the same article i showed that mtDNA H was 46.6% from 14 mtDNA sample from pre Neolithic Iberian s 20,000-7,500ybp from 3 mtDNA 15,000 year old mtDNA samples in northern spain 2 had mtDNA H one had H6 from 9 mtDNA 9,500-7,500 year old samples in Portugal 5 out of 9 had mtDNA H two had H1b which orignated in Iberia
also the oldest mtDNA samples in Iberia from 20,000-18,000years ago one had for sure U and for the other all they know is it was in the RO family mtDNA RO is the grandmother of H today it is almost only found in Arabia and it is over 50,000 years old and probably never migrated to Europe but its daughter mtDNA HV did and so did H so this sample most likely had either mtDNA HV or H also this sample had the R* CRS muation which is usulley reported as mtDNA H but they just did not have enough DNA information to say it was for sure but it probably was H
also a 26,000 year old mtDNA sample from Wales also had the R* CRS muation which means it almost definitely had mtDNA H and now that the technology for receiving DNA from ancient remains is getting much better maybe they can do another test on this remains from Wales the one from Spain this will confirm that we have
two 25,000 year old mtDNA samples from central Russia most likely brother and sister had the CRS and mutation 161219A which means they where for sure mtDNA H17
and 28,000 year old mtDNA sample on the south tip of Italy was for sure mtDNA H and it was not contamination because all of the people that where near it or had contact mtDNA did not match.
so that means we have 4 mtDNA samples in Europe from over 25,000ybp with mtDNA H in Italy, Wales, and Russia and one even had a subclade and we also have 3 mtDNA mtDNA H samples in Europe from 20,000-15,000ybp all in Spain this means mtDNA H has been in Europe for about 35,000 years
i took a National Genographic DNA test and i have mtDNA H64 they tried to explain my DNA story and said mtDNA H orignated in the middle east just 20,000-25,000ybp why would they say that if we have four over 25,000 year mtDNA H samples from all over europe one even had H17 this means mtDNA H probably originated in the middle east over 40,000 years ago it is nearly twice as old as DNA experts predicted i think this also means age predictions on DNA haplogroups are not always accurate usulley they ave a dat at least 5,000 years to young because they also saud mtDNA V is only 9,000 years ago in Spain and migrated acroos Europe and north Africa just 7,000ybp then we find four 12,000 year old mtDNA V samples in north Africa.
here is all the mtDNA samples from Paloithci Europe 37,985-12,300ybp there are 20
U=12 60%(U5=6(U5b=3(U5b1=2, U5b2b1=1), U2/3/4/7/8/9=1, U2=1), H=7 35%(almost defintley H=2, H*unknown subclade=2, H17=2, H6=1), HV=1 5%
and mtDNA H1 and H3 are the most popular H subclades in Europe and northwest Africa they all come from a huge migration that started in north Spain about 15,000ybp also mtDNA V and some U5b subclades also migrated with that group from northern Spain.
from 22 mtDNA samples that are dated as 12,000 years old in Morocco which is far northwest North Africa
H/V/U=12, H=4, H/V=3, V=2
mtDNA V is only 15,000 years old and originated in northern Spain it is apart of that group that migrated across Europe and north west Africa 10,000-15,000ybp so these are remains of the ones that went to north Africa so really we have mtDNA samples from Mesolithic Spaniards who immigrated to north Africa only one had the possibility of being mtDNA U which is strange compared to other Mesolithic mtDNA samples all of them had the possibility of being H or V four where for sure H and two where for sure V i am guessing the rest where H but who knows i think this and the other Mesolithic and Paleolithic Iberian remains are good evidence that mtDNA H was dominant in Iberia at least 15,000ybp and the fact that about 30-50% of Iberian mtDNA are H1 and H3 which originated in Iberia about 15,000ybp
I also made a thread http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...25-4-025-year-old-mtDNA-and-Y-DNA-from-German
which shows that from 86 mtDNA samples all came from Germany except two came from Denmark from 6,625- 4,025 ybp 40.7% had mtDNA H just like modern Europeans and H1 and H3 where th main subclades even though most where not well enough preserved to show subclades this means even back then most of central European mtDNA H was H1 and H3 like today and originated in Spain 15,000ybp
also the pre Bell Beaker Germany remains also had mainly mtDNA H and the same subclades so that mean Bell Beaker probably did not spread mtDNA H in central Europe and there is no way they spread it to Scandinavia, Britain, or any where east of Germany because Bell Beaker culture never expanded there so i think Bell Beaker is not the reason mtDNA H is so popular in Europe
only about 24% of the small sample size of 29 5,000 year old mtDNA samples from Trellis southwestern France had mtDNA H but all had European H1 and H3 which take up 20-30% of mtDNA in that area today.
The main mtDNA H subclades in Europe are rarly found in the middle east
mtDNA H1 and H3 takes up about 30-75% of the H subclades in central, western, and northern Europe and are also the most popular H subclades in all of Europe they take up about 10-30% of their total mtDNA in central, western, and northern Europe in the Middle east mtDNA H1 and H3 only take up about 5-10% of their H subclades and take up usulley less than 1-5% of their total mtDNA and almost all experts believe both mtDNA H1 and H3 originated in northern Spain about 15,000ybp and spread across Europe 10,000-15,000ybp they call it the Iberian refuge http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/1/19.full
so that means mtDNA H1 and H3 where already 10-30% or more in central and western Europe before the Neolithic age and there is no way they came from middle eastern farmers and they expanded during the Mesolithic age 10,000-15,000ybp not the Neolithic 6,000-10,000ybp
also mtDNA H6 which takes up 5-40% of mtDNA in volga Russia and far eastern Europe it also is believed to have originated in Europe about 15,000-20,000ybp and a 15,000 year old remain in northern Spain had H6 and mtDNA H6 is actually very spread out in all of Europe and also found in the middle east it is probably one of the oldest H subclades
mtDNA H5 and H13 are about 10% of H subclades in the middle east but they are very very very rarely ever found in central, western, northern Europe at the most they reach 3% of the mtDNA H subclades they are commonly found though in north Italy and eastern Europe they usulley hit about 5-15% of H subclades in eastern Europe sometimes more popular than in the middle east but in some areas they are less than 1% of the H subclades.
there are many H subclades found in Europe and the middle east but i could not find any information of where they originated or how old they are so right now i cant say which mtDNA H subclades in Europe are from the middle east but in general most Europeans have mtDNA H subclades did not come from middle eastern farmers.
and if there is any one with information out there on where H13, H5, H7, H9, H15, H16, H18, H11, H10, H20, H21, H4 originated that would be extremely helpful
It is impossible for Bell Beaker to Have spread mtDNA H
I have heard many people say Bell Beaker spread mtDNA H in Europe but to me that sound impossible sure Bell Beaker probably started in Iberia where mtDNA H has been popular for 15,000 years and their culture spread across all of western Europe between just 4,800-3,800ybp there are no real signs Bell Beaker spread their culture from Spain by conquering western Europe all they did was spread a culture and bell beaker culture is identified only by a type of pottery style that is all it may have not even been a culture just a type of pottery that spread but lets say it was a culture that started in Spain and conquered most of western Europe when people conquer the native women are not killed off the native men are mainly because they are the ones that fight in the war the invading army replaces the old Y DNA not mtDNA so the Bell Beaker would have done something from what we know no people group has done in history and Internationally only kill off the women and also Bell Beaker never expanded to Scandinavia or east of Germany but in those areas mtDNA H is still 40% so Bell Beaker is not a good explination and H1 and H3 are still the most popular mtDNA H subclades in areas bell Beaker never spread so to me the Bell Beaker argument does not have good evidence just assumptions
and Bell Beaker was actulley conquered by proto Germanic speakers and proto Italoi Celtic it is explained in this link https://www.google.com/url? sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Feurope%2FHaplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml&ei=We3IUYTMFeGqyAHts4GAAQ&usg=AFQjCNHXsHj4Btu0ZPVHyQKiyCoKbeHnKw
Europeans have Different mtDNA H subclades from each other
eastern Europe has very diffenrt mtDNA H subclades than western Europe in eastern Europe H13 and H5 are very popular but they are almost never found in western Europe in western Europe H1 and H3 are very popular but not nearly as popular as in eastern Europe it is true most of Europe has 40% mtDNA H but different regions have different subclades which means it did not spread in the same event and that it is just luck most of Europe turned out to have 40% mtDNA H eastern Europe has many similar subclades as the middle east which could mean its spread in the Neolithic age but western, central, and northern Europe do not so obviously mtDNA H was spread in western, central, and northern Europe from the same event probably Iberian refuge 10,000-15,000ybp but mtDNA H is eastern Europe had to of been spread by a different even they do have some H1 and H3 which means they got some b fro Iberian refuge but since they has many similar subclades to mid easterns it probably spread from the middle east. but mtDNA H1 and H3 are still the most popular mtDNA H subclades in all of Europe which probably means the Iberian refuge made a huge impact on European mtDNA
Conclusion
so basically what i am trying to say is people do not investigate the origin of mtDNA H in europe enough they just assume it came from the Neolithic age based in the few mtDNA samples we have of pre Neolithic Europe but for some reason they dont realize that 35% of Paloithic EUropean mtDNa samples had H and people do not look at subclades i think the origin of mtDNA H in Europe mostly comes from the Iberian refuge and Mesolithic Europe 10,000-15,000ybp some does come from the Neolithic age but most does not and people only mention the few Neolithic cultures like LBK that did not have 40% mtDNA H but most did which people don't mention also another big thing is a 28,000 year old mtDNA sample from south tip Italy, two 25,000 year old mtDNA samples in central russia have H17, one 26,000 year old sample in wales most likley had mtDNA H it defintley did not have U, 20,000-18,000 year old mtDNa sample in south tip Spain also almost defintley had mtDNA H, and two mtDNA samples from norther Spain had mtDNA H one had H6 had H so it probably first arrived in Europe over 35,000ybp
what i want people to know is mtDNA H is alot more popular in Paleolithic and Mesloithci European remains than advertised and mtDNA U is not 100% like the impression they give mtDNA H also shows up in Mesolithic European remains all of this proves mtDNA H was deifntley present in pre Neolithic Europe and was actulley very popular and most mtDNA H subclades in Europe originated in Europe most mtDNA mid eastern farmers brought was T, X, K, J orignalley i think Europe was just U, H, and HV but i may be wrong they might find a T or K in pre Neolithic European remains
so lets say most mtDNA and Y DNA haplogroups in europe arrived in the Neolithic age but still Europeans ancestry is from Paleolithic Europeans modern Europeans have a unique austomnal DNA type some tests call it north European other Atlantic Baltic because it is mainly in those areas but since Europeans are dominated by a austomnal DNA type that originated in Europe almost definitely in the Paleolithic age that means most of Europeans ancestry are the so called Cro Magnon or people that arrived over 30,000ybp
and when people say well none of the 31 Neolithic European Y DNA samples had R1a or R1b and 50% of modern Europeans have them this does not mean Europeans did not arrive in Europe till 5,000ybp because Y DNA and mtDNA are just direct lineages there are black people with European Y DNA but they are only about 5% European this is because their great great great great grandfather was European so it does not tell your full ancestry the Indo Europeans brought R1a and R1b to Europe 6,000-4,000ybp in June 2013 they released some DNA information from 6,000 and 5,000 year old remains from some of the very first Indo European cultures in the Pontic Steppes they said there is no doubt they where a European population they had all of the some light skin genes that dominate Europeans today and they also said they had mainly brown eyes and 4,000 and 3,8000 year old DNA from Indo Iranian Indo Europeans in south Siberia and west china they spread the Indo European language in asia they also had the same white skin genes as modern Europeans and had mainly light eyes and hair and some even had red hair. what i am trying to say is the Indo Europeans that spread the language in Europe and Asia where ethnically European just like the European people they conquered so even before R1a and R1b where popular in Europe the people where already Europeans and the main ancestors of modern ones
Also austomnal DNA from 7,000 year old late Mesolithic hunter gather in Spain with mtDNA U5b had more north European than most modern Europeans and the only true Mesolithic Europeans left are Finnish and Sami people in Scandinavia they have almost only north European globe13 austomnal DNA and the speak a uralic language which according to Maciamo migration map arrived in Scandinavia from north east Asia about 7,000-8,000ybp and since Sami have about 50% mtDNA V and 50% mtDNA U5b and they have unique subclades which are about 8,000 years old this means Sami, Finnish, and all Scandinavians come from Mesolithic hunter gathers who came there at least 10,000ybp since they where already spread out 8,000ybp and Sami and Finnish people's ancestors where not affected by the Neolithic age like other Europeans that is why they have almost no none European austomnal DNA so they are really the last living Mesolithic Europeans and they are the closet modern relatives to Genomes of the Mesolithic hunter gather in Spain and two 5,000 year old hunter gathers from Sweden and they don't look any different from the rest of Europe they actually are paler and have light hair and eyes than any other people in Europe so the European ethnicity is not defined by mtDNA H and did not arrive in the Neolithic age the part of Europeans blood that makes them European arrived in Europe at least 35,000ybp-50,000ybp most of Europeans mtDNA any ways traces back to ancestors that arrived over 35,000ybp
the latest mtDNA haplogroup to arrive in Europe was H and it came 33,000-36,000ybp but mtDNA U5 arrived 50,000-60,000ybp
Here are some resources i used
http://www.genebase.com/doc/mtdnaHaplogroup_H_Subclade_Distribution_Map.pdf
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_mtdna_haplogroups_frequency.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker...ldinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0002700
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080715204741.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_DNA-tested_mummies
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...h4DABg&usg=AFQjCNEFeH0zRH5_qmu0pOKphS2kkGf_vA
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.es/p/ancient-mtdna-maps-of-europe.html
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