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Thread: Most I1 in Europe is not from Germans or Nordics

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Thats true, but they also were less affected by indo-europeans, who themselves were probably mostly paleolithic europeans, although from a different refuge probably and/or admixed with west_asian and maybe others. The map resembles the Saami component from Dodecad K3, which was the first run that has split the North_euro component into two components. I don't think the Saami component is the only paleolithic component, otherwise the separation of Lithuanians/Latvians and Finns/Estonians is hard to explain because they are actually very similar (cluster commonly in most runs, low Fst distance).
    i am sorry but i do not know that much about aust. DNA. i just found this map on the internet. I knew it meant Sami and Finnish are closest modern relatives to La Brana (7,000 year old hunter gather north Spain). I had no idea it was from the Dodecad K3 or that they had two serrate north euro components in K3 and that Sami have their own version which is what La brana( 7,000 year old hunter gather north Spain) had. At least it seems that is what u are saying.

    So are u saying there are diff types of north euro in some types of Aust. DNA tests. Thanks for giving me information on where that map came from and what it is really showing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    i am sorry but i do not know that much about aust. DNA. i just found this map on the internet. I knew it meant Sami and Finnish are closest modern relatives to La Brana (7,000 year old hunter gather north Spain). I had no idea it was from the Dodecad K3 or that they had two serrate north euro components in K3 and that Sami have their own version which is what La brana( 7,000 year old hunter gather north Spain) had. At least it seems that is what u are saying.

    So are u saying there are diff types of north euro in some types of Aust. DNA tests. Thanks for giving me information on where that map came from and what it is really showing.
    Well, I was just remembering this old thread: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ht=super+saami
    (scroll further down for the figure)

    I have to correct myself: it was not DODECAD, but STRUCTURE v3, and that's not exactly the origin of that map, it just resembles the results, however. I don't remember where I have seen it first, will tell you if I remember.

    regarding STRUCTURE v3:
    The blue bars in the graph likely correspond to IEans, the red ones clearly correspond to Ajv52 Ajv70 samples from Gotland. It is ironic that at such a low resolution a split of the north_europ component happened, whereas higher order runs didn't, however.
    Note how not Finns but rather Mordvins (Mr) (or Mari?) and Udmurts appear close to these neolithic swedsh hunter-gatherers. Finns have gotten more of the IEan component in this run, which is not too surprising because Finns have big local variations and a history of constant and slow population influx from the south into a different founder population.

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    When u say IEns do u mean Indo Europeans?

    The swedish hunter gathers where 100% of the red bar so i guess their closest relatives on this chart are
    1. Sam(probably Sami)
    2. mr( maybe mordavien)
    3.ud( maybe udmurt)
    4. Km?????
    5.Gbrang????????

    Otzie and Gok4 seem to be very close and have alot more of the red bar than most people in Europe which makes them closer to the Swedish hunter gathers. Otzie and Gok4 seem close to alot of Europeans. what exactley does the red bar, blue bar, and green bar mean. I can tell this is not the same as aust. dna test where they give names like north euro or meditreaen.

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    THANK YOU for working on your punctuation, F.H. It's getting easier to follow your line of thinking.

    Something else you may want to consider. Instead of fixating on I1a2, I1a1, I1...b4u812 (joking on the last one) you may want to switch over to the more accurate SNP systems. Z58, L22, Z140 are far more specific and more telling than the older method.

    **EDIT**

    Here's a little window into how this works...

    We are all fishing for the truth. DNA testing is a fairly new development so we are all learning about our tribal journeys throughout history. So on this large scale fishing trip... the first STR tests could be likened to acquiring an on-board radar that gives you an indication of where the fish might be. (Kind of clumsy, but far better than nothing.)

    As more and more SNP population results come back and the giant puzzle of humanity's travels starts coming together, using SNP results is going to be like fishing on a clear lake with a glass-bottom boat. No comparison really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    When u say IEns do u mean Indo Europeans?

    The swedish hunter gathers where 100% of the red bar so i guess their closest relatives on this chart are
    1. Sam(probably Sami)
    2. mr( maybe mordavien)
    3.ud( maybe udmurt)
    4. Km?????
    5.Gbrang????????

    Otzie and Gok4 seem to be very close and have alot more of the red bar than most people in Europe which makes them closer to the Swedish hunter gathers. Otzie and Gok4 seem close to alot of Europeans. what exactley does the red bar, blue bar, and green bar mean. I can tell this is not the same as aust. dna test where they give names like north euro or meditreaen.

    GBrang = Great Britain Argyle which = the gaelic push from ireland into west pictish lands in scotland
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    GBrang = Great Britain Argyle which = the gaelic push from ireland into west pictish lands in scotland
    thanks for the info

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    When u say IEns do u mean Indo Europeans?
    Yes.

    The swedish hunter gathers where 100% of the red bar so i guess their closest relatives on this chart are
    1. Sam(probably Sami)
    2. mr( maybe mordavien)
    3.ud( maybe udmurt)
    Most likely yes.

    4. Km?????
    5.Gbrang????????
    I guess Km means Komi.

    Otzie and Gok4 seem to be very close and have alot more of the red bar than most people in Europe which makes them closer to the Swedish hunter gathers. Otzie and Gok4 seem close to alot of Europeans. what exactley does the red bar, blue bar, and green bar mean. I can tell this is not the same as aust. dna test where they give names like north euro or meditreaen.
    I guess the red, blue and green just has not been given a name yet. And Ötzi and Gok4 have no blue, thus I guess it added up a little on the red bar instead. Don't know how exactly it works but if blue and red bars are not distant then some overlapping remnants of blue could have shifted more easily to the red bar in some specific cases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    And Ötzi and Gok4 have no blue, thus I guess it added up a little on the red bar instead.
    It also can be that some atlantic_med (green) is included in the red bars of hunter autosomal. Then the analysis might have reversed the interpretaion by saying Ötzi has some Paleolithic admixture when actually it is the other way around.

    Here are other great maps from the same guy (Loxias, done using GEDmatch).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    It also can be that some atlantic_med (green) is included in the red bars of hunter autosomal. Then the analysis might have reversed the interpretaion by saying Ötzi has some Paleolithic admixture when actually it is the other way around.

    Here are other great maps from the same guy (Loxias, done using GEDmatch).
    Loxias..........in my opinion one of the best and most accurate plotters I have seen, I do not know how he does it.

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    I1 as per KenN in pommerania and Prussia .............are the goths baltic people?




    Does artifacts mean anything?





    what about Bromme culture, could that take a KenN I1 from prussia to denmark or was it too early?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromme_culture

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    I think I1a defintley came to Scandinavia 10,000-15,000 years ago because the kund Uralic culture from Siberia conquered Finland and northeast Europe 8,000 years ago the uralics where Mongoloid the native Finnish we know where European. Because we have their skeletal remains and some mtDNA. modern Finnish have about 30-40% Mongloid Y DNA N1c1 and 30-40% European I1a2c.

    I1a2 is probably the native European Y DNA because There is no archaeological evidence a culture from Swedan migrating or conquered Uralic's in the last 8,000 years. also y DNA I1a2 is restricted to only Scandinavia and the only other areas in europe it is found outside of scandnavia are in areas Vikings raided. there is no Achieolgicakl evidence of a Neolithic or bronze age culture that existed in Swedan, Norway, and Finland so that means there is no way I1a2 L22 spread in Scandnavia in the last 10,000 years.

    Since Scandinavian I1a2 L22 brothers I1a1 Df29, I1a3 Z58,and I1a4 Z63 are mainly found in Germany. i think the I1a DF29 migration into scandnavia from Germany through Denmark came 10,000-15,000ybp possibly Brommer and Ahrensburg cultures. but since these cultures existed over 11,000 years ago and we have only some remains that are probably 100's of years apart from each other we barley know what culture these people had. So how do we know it was people from eastern Germany that migrated to Scandinavia. Since Germany is literalley right under Scandinavia I1a Df29 defintley migrated out of Germany to Scandinavia at some point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    I think I1a defintley came to Scandinavia 10,000-15,000 years ago because the kund Uralic culture from .
    Because of Ice Age there was no human settlement in Scandinavia before 9k years ago.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    the oldest human remians in norway are 11,200 years old http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...man_settlement
    and almost all of Scandinavia was settled 8,000 years ago because siberian kunda culture conquered people who already lived there

    we have 11 mtdna samples at the border of finland and Russia from 7,500ybp so there where people in finland just 1,500ybp after first humans arrived in Scandinavia I think u are confused with 9,000 bc which is really 11,000 years ago.

    7 had Caucasian U, four had U4 which is most popular in modern Europe but i dont know if it originated in Europe, two had U2e which specifically european 37,985ybp mtdna from far western european russia had U2, one had specifically european U5a two 31,155 year old mtdna from Czech republic had U5 which originated in Europe over 50,000 years ago,

    two had Mongoloid C1 which is most popular in Siberia today,

    one had Caucasin mtDNA H which originated around the south caucus and Iraq about 40,000-50,000 years ago two 25,000 year old H17 samples where found in european Russia, one 28,000 year old H sample was found in far south italy.

    what this shows is people in Finland 7,500ybp where european and descended from people who came to Europe over 40,000 years ago aka Cro Magnon, but there was some Mongoloid Siberian influence that probably came from Uralics.

    i but 10,000-15,000ybp just to be safe i know they probably first came 10,000-11,00ybp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    one had Caucasin mtDNA H which originated around the south caucus and Iraq about 40,000-50,000 years ago two 25,000 year old H17 samples where found in european Russia, one 28,000 year old H sample was found in far south italy.
    You've repeated these claims several places, but they're both doubtful. The "28,000 year old H" is from Caramelli 2008, which did not conclusively determine a haplogroup, it only found some markers in common with HV and U (see Jean Manco). Similarly, the "25,000 year old H17" is from Alexeeva 2000, which was disputed as contamination per Ovchinnikov and Goodwin 2003, and only had one rare HVR1 mutation to go off of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    the oldest human remians in norway are 11,200 years old http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...man_settlement
    and almost all of Scandinavia was settled 8,000 years ago because siberian kunda culture conquered people who already lived there

    i but 10,000-15,000ybp just to be safe i know they probably first came 10,000-11,00ybp.
    Sorry, I didn't have time to check my writing, it is 9,000 BC, time from last Ice age snap called Younger Dryas.

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    I think you may be onto something F.H (regarding I1a2 aka L22+). You may want to consider an adjustment to your thinking though... you have these northernly I1 clades very geographically regimented. This isn't how they look in reality. Keep I1 affinity for boat travel in mind when plotting the course of these groups. Their movements are more fluid than you're allowing for...
    Last edited by nordicquarreler; 13-07-13 at 06:29.

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    [/QUOTE] (Sparkey) You've repeated these claims several places, but they're both doubtful. The "28,000 year old H" is from Caramelli 2008, which did not conclusively determine a haplogroup, it only found some markers in common with HV and U (see Jean Manco). Similarly, the "25,000 year old H17" is from Alexeeva 2000, which was disputed as contamination per Ovchinnikov and Goodwin 2003, and only had one rare HVR1 mutation to go off of.for the 28,000 year old H from south italy http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0002700 this study done on it said it was not contamination because they tested all people who had contact with it and none matjed. also here is a quote of what they said what type of mtdna it was they never mention haplogroups[/QUOTE] The Paglicci 23 individual carried a mtDNA sequence that is still common in Europe, and which radically differs from those of the almost contemporary Neandertals, demonstrating a genealogical continuity across 28,000 years, from Cro-Magnoid to modern Europeans. Because all potential sources of modern DNA contamination are known, the Paglicci 23 sample will offer a unique opportunity to get insight for the first time into the nuclear genes of early modern Europeans.[QUOTE]

    i dont know what they mean by squence but to me it seems they are saying it is mtdna h which takes up about 40% of Europeans not HV which takes up less than 1% or U which is about 15%. according to this wikpedia link they say it was H http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_DNA-tested_mummies they also contridiced themselves and said it has no for sure haplogroup but H is defintley a possibility. also it was identical to the Cambridge reference sequence i dont completly understand it but it is mtdna H2a2. and they call certain mutations in it rCRS which also corrspond with mtdna H and the 28,000 year mtdna in Italy had it so there is a good chance it had H. i guess i was wron hough it is not for sure H but there is a very good chance that is why it was first published as H.

    the two 25,000 year old H17 in European Russia had the rCRS which means there is a good chance it had H. the only mutation that differed from rCRS was 16129A which according to the Phylo tree it is H17. unless it was contamination both samples where H17. this link says they where both for sure H17 or H27 http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...of-europe.html

    i dont know that much about the mutations of haplogroups but from what i have seen the two from russia where H17 or H27 unless it was contamination. also i have looked at lists of ancient dna and studies they did on it these scientits are very exact and they check a ton to see if it is contamination if they are not 150% sure it was not contamination they will say probable contamination even though all the ancient dna they test is probably not contamination. so the ones from Russia where almost defintley H17 or H27.

    also u need to remeber there are alot of genetic historians who are fanatics about H in europe being from neloithic mid eastern farmers. so every h sample people find from pre neloithic europe those fanatics say it was probably contamination, say there is not enough info to say it was H, or just ignore it. so when ever they have paloithic european mtdna they will assume anything close to U is U but if it is probably H but has a possibility to be another haplogroup they will say it is that other haplogroup.

    also there are two for sure 15,000 year old H samples in northern spain one had H6 but of course many people argued agianst it but they did many tests and they where H(unknown subclade) and H6. even though ii dont really trust age testing the age of almost all H subclades in europe are around the same age as in the south caucus and around iraq. here is a link to some age estimates of H subclades in Europe and middle east http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...expansion.html

    if these age estimates are true that means H has been in europe for over 30,000 years. i dont really trust the H sample from italy but i defintley think the two from Russia are legit. i saw that maciamo in the mtdna area of this webiste said H is over 35,000 years old not like over estimates that say 25,000. also those fanatics i was talking about think haplogroups are ur full ancestry even though they are just a duirect lineage.

    these fanatics are honestly spreading lies they say it is a fact mtdna H came to europe in neloithic and that europeans decend from those mid eastern neloithic invader. here are some links to big time media companies spreading these lies the list includes bbc i noticed they all came out around april23 and say alost word for word the same thing http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22252099 http://www.hngn.com/articles/2114/20...ic-history.htm
    http://www.newsnet14.com/?p=123512
    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/n...ng-ancient-dna
    http://churnalism.sunlightfoundation...743a/4/139877/
    http://historical-nonfiction.tumblr....ly-disappeared
    http://www.livescience.com/28954-anc...-vanished.html
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3142552.html

    they need to realize mtdna H does not define being european. sami in far north scandnvai have less than 1% H.
    aust. dna which tells ur full ancestry shows that europeans come from the Paleolithic age they usulley call the european group north european because it is more popular in north europe. there is aust. dna from la brana a hunter gather from spain who according to these fanatics had non modern european u5b2c1. in the globe13 test he had 71% north european so he was more european than almost all modern europeans and he was not a farmer. also he had 25% med that was most likely from farmer inter marriage. because at this time most of Spanish where farmers

    There is aust dna from two farmers both had over 59% med so the farmers where actulley mainly non european. The hunter gathers these fanatics say where killed off by europeans ancestors where actulley the main ancestors of modern europeans.

    i know i am speaking strongly against these people i hope i dont become a fanatic like them. i am willing to change my opinion about mtdan H if someone gives me good enough evidence.

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    Why would you change your thinking on hg. H in Europe? You're spot on.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    nordicquarreler I have heard u mention the boat traval thing and hg I many times. I think u make some interesting points. can u please explain ur theory in dept. U know I write very long posts and I don't care how long your post is it can be 10 book pages or more if that is how long it takes u to show all of ur points.I have some doubts about ur theory because I don't think there is only one explanation for what happened to hg I people over thousands of years. because they where from different parts of Europe and had very different cultures but could have reacted in a similar way.I think u forget hg I2a1(western meditreaen), I2a2 (central Europe and possibly Britain and Ireland) where already conquered by hg G2a farmers in the Neolithic age. I made a thread showing my estimates on what y dna Neolithic Europeans had by sub tracking all y dna that came to Europe after the Neolithic age. G2a would have been about 60-75% in France, alps, most of Italy, and most of Spain, from y dna from Neolithic Spain, alps Italy, france, and central Germany totally support that because 26 of 31 had G2a. in eastern Europe during the Neolithic age the majority of the people still would have had I2a1b except for indo Europeans in central Russia. Scandinavians would have had almost 100% I1a2 except Finnish would have around 30-40%.so when hg R1b L11/P310 Germanic Italo speakers conquered western Europe they conquered mainly hg G2a people who where farmers not hg I hunter gathers. but I still think u make very good points and can u please explain ur theory in dept u know I write very long posts and I don't care how long your post is it can be 10 pages long I will still read it because I really want to know exactly why u think boat travel was important for hg I people running away from invading hg R1 and g2a.also what do u mean by I was spot on with hg H.

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    I think mtDNA hg. H has been solidly in Europe for at least 25,000 years. But, I don't believe paternal hg. I "ran away" from G2a though. The sheer numbers of hg. I vs. hg. G in Europe today doesn't indicate your hypothesis. You are correct in citing the fact that hg. G has more found remains, however this can be pegged to a farming lifestyle in areas that would favor preservation. I will send you a P.M. that might clear up some of my other theories.

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    Thanks, Andrew P.S. What's your ideas on haplogroup X (maternal) in the Americas?



    The X in Native Americans is X2a and X2q. X2a is also found in Isreal Druze but X2a is only in Native Americans most though have X2a.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/x

    Somehow Native Americans ancestors had pre Colombian pre viking inter marriage with Caucasins. age estimates say it happened 12,000-17,000ybp and 23,000-36,000ybp. I do not think it came from Europe because so far the only Haplogroups found in Paloithic and Mesolithic Europeans is U, H, HV, and N. X starts to pop up in Neolithic samples but that could be because X is around 2% in Europe today and we dont have enough Paloithic and Mesolithic samples. I cant find any info on when X is suppose to have spread to Europe.

    All i could find is X1 is only found in the middle east and north and east africa and is the main X subclade in those places, while X2 is the only subclade of European, central Asian, SIBERIAN, and north American andis the only X subclade for those areas. This link says http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180497/ X2 expanded in Eurasia most likely in the Last glacial Maximum 26,500-19,000ybp. So i guess X2 may have came to Europe much earlier than the Neolithic. There is some X in southwestern Siberia but it has sucbclades found in the south caucus and this group of siberians has a total of 27% Caucasin mtDNA so it is from recent caucasin inter marriage and not the sources of native americans X2. also X was found in northern siberia where native americans orignated one had the orignal form X2* and X2b so that is also probably not the sources of Native American X2g and X2a.

    The only two possibilities for Native American X2a and X2q. are migration from Europe 12,000-26,000ybp or mid eastern inter married with Siberians who later migrated to north America about 12,000-26,000ybp. X2 did not come from the first migration in north america or from the original family native Americans descend from. It is restricted to north east north Americans.

    also i think X2 might be connected with y dna R1. because the same native americans with X2 also have 40-60% of the original form of R1. So what may have happened is mid easterns with mtdna X2 inter married with Siberians with y dna R1 about 20,000ybp. Then mid easterns formed a R1b branch about 15,000-20,000ybp and Europeans somehow also got R1 possibly from mid easterns who brought X2. Then European formed R1a about 15,000-20,000ybp.

    Then somehow Europeans in the steppes(central Russia) with R1a inter married with mid easterns and also got R1b. These where Indo Europeans or Indo Europeans ancestors(Dneiper Donets culture, Yamna, Maykop, etc.). Then Indo Europeans Balto Slavs(Corded ware Culture) conquered eastern Europe and spread R1a1a1b1, Italo Celtic Germanic conquered western Europe (Unetice, Nordic bronze age cultures) and spread R1b L11/P310. Indo Iranians(Afanasevo, Adronovo cultures etc.) conquered much of central Asia, south Siberia, west China, India and Iran area and spread R1a1a1b2. There are more but i dont have enough room to mention all Indo Europeans.

    I wonder if their is a trace of mtDNA X2 and Indo European migrations. Or if there is alot of X2 around the steppes(central Russia) probably not.
    Last edited by Fire Haired; 18-07-13 at 02:05.

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    Wow, I hadn't heard of the 40-60% of R1 linked to the maternal X tribes. Could you source that by chance? I'm a big proponent of Solutreans Theory but I had most of the males lines belonging to hgs. I or G. The Native American Indians have legends of the land holding a population of giants that had red hair. In the myths the Indians killed the male giants and took their women. Solutreans would put the Atlantic voyage(s) at 21.000 to 17,000 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    Wow, I hadn't heard of the 40-60% of R1 linked to the maternal X tribes. Could you source that by chance? I'm a big proponent of Solutreans Theory but I had most of the males lines belonging to hgs. I or G. The Native American Indians have legends of the land holding a population of giants that had red hair. In the myths the Indians killed the male giants and took their women. Solutreans would put the Atlantic voyage(s) at 21.000 to 17,000 years ago.
    This legend might have started at Viking times. Vikings arrived to western coasts around 1,000AD, had few settlements, and then slowly vanished.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    Wow, I hadn't heard of the 40-60% of R1 linked to the maternal X tribes. Could you source that by chance? I'm a big proponent of Solutreans Theory but I had most of the males lines belonging to hgs. I or G. The Native American Indians have legends of the land holding a population of giants that had red hair. In the myths the Indians killed the male giants and took their women. Solutreans would put the Atlantic voyage(s) at 21.000 to 17,000 years ago.
    Singh 2008 puts the question of Native American Y-DNA R origins in the air, but it's pretty clear that the R1 that mtDNA X carriers tend to have is simply European-introduced R1 (typically R1b), not R1* as Fire Haired indicates. Just look at any Native American DNA Project, like this one.

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    wikpedia says the same but they still have some R1* which would have come to north america over 15,000ybp. it did not come from the same migraton the main ancestors of native americans came. Also i think there is R1* in siberia.

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