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Thread: Most I1 in Europe is not from Germans or Nordics

  1. #51
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    yeah I still think i1 was spread mostly by Germanic /northern people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    i have noticed this websit's page about I1 http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml assumes all of I1 is from Scandnvaiens or Germans but it seems like that can not be true for many reasons

    Y DNA I1 is the only subclade of a haplogroup that is found in every spot in Europe in some areas Germans and Scandnaviens never migrated too or made very small un significant migrations like Macedonia where I1 is 3% and I1 is to popular like in some areas like Serbia at 6.5% where Germans and Scandnvaiens have had very small presence Scandnvaiens never made migrations to serbia or Macidonia but Germans did but the Germanic tribes had about 30-40% Y DNa R1b U106 and only 10-20% I1 then why dont we find R1b U106 with I1 usulley we dont which means they got it from non Germans and most I1 subclades in Europe are not found in Scandnavia
    Ofcourse the Germanic peoples which were in some extent of Scandinavian or Nordic ancestry settled the Balkans, such as the Goths, Gepids, Heruls and probably even Longobards.

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    I1 is found, interestingly, in 27% of Dutch men (most of it I1-M253) and 14-25% of Belgian and French men, depending on the region. Same goes for the English. Peaks of I in England are at about 33% in a few regions; areas with 20% I are common across England. Most of this I, as for the latter countries, is of the Scandinavian variety (I1a).

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    I1 is found, interestingly, in 27% of Dutch men (most of it I1-M253) and 14-25% of Belgian and French men, depending on the region. Same goes for the English. Peaks of I in England are at about 33% in a few regions; areas with 20% I are common across England. Most of this I, as for the latter countries, is of the Scandinavian variety (I1a).
    I think the Dutch have something like 18% or 20% I1 and 5-10% I2b, so i guess that squares up with 27% I if that's what you mean? Of course it all must vary by region somewhat too.
    'Wise men speak only of what they know' - J.R.R. Tolkien

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    That's exactly what I mean : )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    [...]I1 though is to spread out for it all to be from Germanic tribes. I dont think the 6.5% I1 in serbia is from Germans. The Germanic tribes in the migration period would have had mainly R1b S21 not I1. I1 is 4% of Crete but there is no German R1b S21 and in the migration period Germans never migrated to Crete so where did it come from.
    You use "Germans," in a loose way... not eastern or western in specifics. I'm unsure who is German to you. Certainly the Goths (both factions) came through to settle the north Black Sea area. The Germanic Lombards and Ostrogoths are known to have taken all of Italy and laid out some DNA. The Ostrogoths did fight in the employ of the Eastern Orthodox Church/Byzantines (Constantinople). Crete is around 450 mi. and under the control of the Byzantines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    I think what proves it is England has 30-40% R1b s21 like GErmans the reason is teh anglo saxons alot of I1 in England comes from Vikings not Anglo Saxons.
    Viking v. Anglo-Saxon. Pretty much one in the same. Angles, Saxons, Danes, Jutes, Scandinavians, Frisians, Franks, and others originating in what is now Holland, Denmark and extreme northern Germany. Wave after wave after wave of invaders moved through GB from 300 to now. The Viking period was brief (800-1050AD) and Germanic people that originated as Angles, Jutes, etc. The Germanic people seem to have been cohesive genetically... tribes joining other tribes... interbreeding. At any rate, it looks like a M253 smashing of England, sending the Celts (R1b) scurrying for the western areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    If I1 in Serbia is from Germans where is the R1b S21 if all I1 in Europe is form GErmans and I1 is in almost all of Europe why isnt R1b S21 in almost every area of Europe it should be over 10% in Serbia. I really dont think We can keep saying all I1 is GErman that thread that guy from Albania made where he said he has teh orignal form of I1* is more evidence I1 is very old and very spread out in Europe because of that.
    Just in light reading, it looks like I1 basically overpowered Rb1 just in sheer numbers. I have read where I1 is the oldest and original haplogroup for Europe. In Serbia it approaches 40% of the population and R1b barely registering. However in Croatia R1a and R1b are around 50% of the population. Go figure. Possibly those with Rb1 were found undesirable in appearance to I1 and they had their heads chopped off (in the Migration Period). Just saying...

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    Quote Originally Posted by C-in-fl-usa View Post
    Viking v. Anglo-Saxon. Pretty much one in the same. Angles, Saxons, Danes, Jutes, Scandinavians, Frisians, Franks, and others originating in what is now Holland, Denmark and extreme northern Germany. Wave after wave after wave of invaders moved through GB from 300 to now. The Viking period was brief (800-1050AD) and Germanic people that originated as Angles, Jutes, etc. The Germanic people seem to have been cohesive genetically... tribes joining other tribes... interbreeding. At any rate, it looks like a M253 smashing of England, sending the Celts (R1b) scurrying for the western areas.
    Sorta... but depends on the region. Anglo-Saxons would have had a slightly different subclade distribution than Vikings, and it's possible to tell the difference in some cases. Most of England (the Southeast especially) shows more affinity to the Netherlands and nearby, hence likely more Anglo-Saxon, while in some areas in the British Isles, we see affinity to Scandinavia. I'm thinking of Orkney in particular, which heavily tilts toward Scandinavia according to People of the British Isles.


    Quote Originally Posted by C-in-fl-usa View Post
    Just in light reading, it looks like I1 basically overpowered Rb1 just in sheer numbers. I have read where I1 is the oldest and original haplogroup for Europe. In Serbia it approaches 40% of the population and R1b barely registering. However in Croatia R1a and R1b are around 50% of the population. Go figure. Possibly those with Rb1 were found undesirable in appearance to I1 and they had their heads chopped off (in the Migration Period). Just saying...
    You're mixing I1 with I as a whole here. Most Haplogroup I in the Balkans is in fact I2.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    personal bets:
    I think Y-I1 is geographically northern european - its age could be tied to the "cutting" apparently done drom Y-I2 by Y-R1b people -
    Y-I* was maybe not southern at all, but central european (even in the hardest times of LGM, NEVER WAS CENTRAL EUROPE VOID OF INHABITANTS spite what is commonly said- this bet could explain why Y-I is AND northern AND southern, but weakened around Don (Danau) river?... - the Y-I2* and Y-I2a1a descendants (do'nt forget the non-stop dynamic in SNPs creation) in N-E Spain and Sardinia could very well be arrived there more recently, by Sea from Adriatic coasts (Dalmatia) or from central Europe (at what time?: no idea: 9000-7000 BC?)-
    I have some difficulty to imagine the rare Y-I1 downstream SNPs in Southern Europe as independant sets - for me, Y-I1 (all SNPs) are from Northern Europe, either became germanic speaking or finnic speaking (maybe some traces among Celts and Balts but very few) - maybe at older stage a kind of proto-basque language??? too speculative???
    surely a wave of I1 colonized Scandinavia and Finland (artic culture?) before the germanic stage of I-Ean, but as a whole, this Y-I1 SNPs were germanized about the 1000 BC, perhaps a bit earlier, and they saw their brothers Y-I1 (other SNPs) coming with this germanization along with R1B and R1a (of Corded origin) -
    after that, naturally, the respective distributions of Y-R1b, R1a and I1 variated according to geography and E-Germanics came partly from Scandinavia had higher percentages of I1 and R1a as opposed to R1b (rather U106) than the West germanics, as said yet - in northerwn slavic (russian lands) the Y-I1 can be germanic in some places, NOT in other places (earlier arrived) according to History - but in south Europe I think Y-I1 came with Germanics: I believe I1 was previously dwelled South the Baltic Sea so the scandinavian germanics that occupied previously E-Germanic and even Baltic tribes coasts could have taken a bit more Y-I 's with younger SNPs born outside Scandinavia-
    but when I see an Y-I1 in Portugal, Spain, Italy, Balkans, I cannot pass without thinking in Germanics, whatever the birthplace of the tribe...
    we see the SNPs (downtream) of Y-I1 of N-continental Europe in Scandinavia and the ones of Scandinavia in N-continental Europe (but the first ones not in Finland), the two in the British Isles, only the respective percentages change...

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    I think the Dutch have something like 18% or 20% I1 and 5-10% I2b, so i guess that squares up with 27% I if that's what you mean? Of course it all must vary by region somewhat too.
    18% is the % given by Maciamo for Y-11 (state of the Netherlands) I red somewhere Frisians had about 28% of I1 - the maximum in England would be in East Anglia (Norforlk and...) about 30%33% (strong in Yorkshire too: nothing astonishing a time again...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    18% is the % given by Maciamo for Y-11 (state of the Netherlands) I red somewhere Frisians had about 28% of I1 - the maximum in England would be in East Anglia (Norforlk and...) about 30%33% (strong in Yorkshire too: nothing astonishing a time again...
    It does make sense, afterall you can't expect a sudden boundary between Denmark and north Germany, or at least not that sudden. :)

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    I have done the Big Y and transferred my BAM file to Yfull. I'm I1a and my terminal was dated ca 1450 years old!

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    According Serbian DNA project (sample for now is 992 individuals):

    Serbs; I1 = 9,17%

    It is even more than Maciamo found in scientific papers (8,5%)

    ...
    Small part I1 in Serbia and generally Balkans origin from Goths, Gepids, Heruls, Longobards.

    I1 was in Balkans earlier, scientists will research, we will see new studies.

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    The original Germanic speakers were clearly R1b, although I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest that the spread of R1b and I1 is related to Germanic expansion.

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    Country: Finland




    If you dont know shit about Uralic-Finnic or Germanic origins you should shut up and stop spreading lies.


    This forums if full of ignorant people, here are some links again, I have doubts if you can read them based on your writings.


    What do we know about the prehistory of languages and cultures in areas, such as Northern Europe that do not have written documents or large extinct cities? For decades, archaeology and linguistics, two disciplines weaving together multiple interdisciplinary aspects have fostered a dialogue focusing on cultural and linguistic networks, mobility and contacts between people. This book sheds new light on cultural diffusion and language change in prehistoric Northern Europe with special emphasis on the northern Baltic Sea area. The rise of agriculture, identification of new cultural waves in terms of language are topics that outline the early prehistory in the North. The book contains twelve articles by linguists and archaeologists, evidence drawn from various Finno-Ugric and Indo-European languages, and up-to-date insights into the research of prehistoric Northern Europe.



    Riho Grünthal: Introduction: an interdisciplinary perspective on prehistoric Northern Europe [PDF]
    Mika Lavento: Cultivation among hunter-gatherers in Finland – evidence of activated connections? [PDF]
    Charlotte Damm: From Entities to Interaction: Replacing pots and people with networks of transmission [PDF]
    Luobbal Sámmol Sámmol Ánte (Ante Aikio): An essay on Saami ethnolinguistic prehistory [PDF]
    Asko Parpola: Formation of the Indo-European and Uralic (Finno-Ugric) language families in the light of archaeology: Revised and integrated 'total' correlations [PDF]
    Tiit-Rein Viitso: Early Metallurgy in Language: The History of Metal Names in Finnic [PDF]
    Karl Pajusalu: Phonological Innovations of the Southern Finnic Languages [PDF]
    Petri Kallio: The Prehistoric Germanic Loanword Strata in Finnic [PDF]
    Guus Kroonen: Non-Indo-European root nouns in Germanic: evidence in support of the Agricultural Substrate Hypothesis [PDF]
    Santeri Junttila: The prehistoric context of the oldest contacts between Baltic and Finnic languages [PDF]
    Riho Grünthal: Baltic loanwords in Mordvin [PDF]
    Willem Vermeer: Why Baba-Yaga? Substratal phonetics and restoration of velars subject to the Progressive Palatalization in Russian/Belorussian and adjacent areas (appr. 600–900 CE) [PDF]

    http://www.sgr.fi/sust/sust266/sust266.html

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    The Goths maybe? They were in the Balkans

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    Yo Ustasha up there. calm down with the Xenophobia.
    Bosnians are not Turkish or Arabic or whatever. These genetic projects have proven that. Which makes you even more ignorant now flaunting your dumb ideologies. I'm not even religious (and most Bosnians are very secular) but Bosnia is not Islamic occupied. It's a colony of NATO and the EU (not an official member but controlled by their banks nonetheless) just like your precious Croatia.

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