Map of Germanic paternal lineages

[Vallicanus]

You people are only interested in your racist fantasies..babies.

 

[Maciamo]

Hahahah good point.

Also there is some R1a in Italy which could be of Germanic origin, but those maps ignore that.

Most of the R1a in Italy belongs to the Balto-Slavic CTS1211 branch, which I believe was brought by Proto-Slavs who accompanied the Goths.

 

[Hauteville]

You people are only interested in your racist fantasies..babies.

Why?we have reported new data and percentage for a new study for make a better and more accurate map.

 

[giuseppe rossi]

Most of the R1a in Italy belongs to the Balto-Slavic CTS1211 branch, which I believe was brought by Proto-Slavs who accompanied the Goths.

We can't know for sure.

According to FTDNA there are also Baltic, Central European and local Paleolitich subclades, with at least one Slavic M458 found in Lombardy. Although those results are incomplete since most FTDNA users from Italy didn't took the complete test.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results

Underhill has samples from only 3 locations in Italy.

 

[Vallicanus]

Y dna is prone to genetic drift and bottleneck effects. It's only 1 or 2 pc of one's total genetic makeup.

What matters is autosomal DNA which also influences actual physical appearance.

 

[giuseppe rossi]

None is talking about phenotypes here and the autosomal dna is also a very tiny part of genome (just 100k SNPs from more than 3 Bilions of human genome).

Stick to the topic and stop trollin.g with nonsense talk about phenotypes and racism.

 

[MOESAN]

Y dna is prone to genetic drift and bottleneck effects. It's only 1 or 2 pc of one's total genetic makeup.

What matters is autosomal DNA which also influences actual physical appearance.

Y DNA has by force some signification in patriarcal sociétés and the separative drifts Y<-> autosomes are not always quick

 

[UltraViolence]

I wish someone made a Y-DNA map of European lineages in America,Canada, SA, Australia etc....


and see in which regions in every country have patterns or show where certain types are more common/prevalent than others

it would be interesting to see how much R1b-L21 there is compare to R1b-U106 there is in those places, and from region to region

 

[Vallicanus]

Y dna has little genetic significance.
There are black Americans with Germanic y dna.

 

[giuseppe rossi]

Black Americans are 20-30% British autosomally.

Again stop t.rolling and stick to the topic.

If you want to share some percentages of y-dna lineages from serious sources, ok.

Otherwise you are only spam.ming and t.rolling.

 

[Vallicanus]

Why are you so obsessed with minority Germanic mixture in Italians?

Is there something wrong with Phoenician or Greek or Arabic mixture?

 

[giuseppe rossi]

Why are you obsessed with Italians in the first place?

For the rest I will say it again.

If you want to share some percentages of y-dna lineages from serious sources, ok.

Otherwise you are only spam.ming and t.rolling.

 

[Angela]

Y dna has little genetic significance.
There are black Americans with Germanic y dna.

This thread is about a map Maciamo created to show the frequency of certain yDna lineages. It isn't about the autosomal composition of any of the countries on that map. If you're not interested in yDna lineages and have no data to contribute, then what are doing on it? Please stop trying to derail the discussion.

 

[MOESAN]

Vallicanus have you some hidden psy problem?

 

[Tomenable]

Slavic R1a could be brought to Italy after year 598, when Slavic people penetrated into Italy through Istria.

That was reported for example by Pope Gregory I in his letter (dated 599 AD) to Exarch of Italy:

"(...) It deeply afflicts and disquiets me the Slavic nation that menace us. It afflicts me from what I already suffer from you, it disquiets me because they have already started to penetrate into the Italic Peninsula through Istria. (...)" - Pope Gregory I

As for Slavic expansion into the Balkans:

South Slavonic tribes were raiding Roman lands from their homeland north of the Danube river in what is now southern Romania since around the 490s, but they started to settle south of the Danube (in Balkans "proper") only since around 545. First settlements from ca. 545 - 550 were established in eastern Bosnia, Lower and Upper Moesia, and Little Scythia - including the regions of Ulmetum and Adina. Around the same time (ca. 550) first Slavic immigrants probably reached what is now Slovenia (they could be the same tribe which had besieged Durazzo in 547). Second wave of Slavs came to Slovenia after 568 (this time from the north, most probably from Moravia). According to John of Ephesus and Menander Protector another major wave of Slavs (Menander wrote that their strength was 100,000 but he didn't specify whether that included only warriors or all people) broke into Thrace and Thessaly as far as the Great Walls of Constantinople in period 577 - 580, and settled in vast areas. Sources mention that those Slavs were led by a war chief named Ardagast or Radogost (Ардагаст), and a king named Musokios. They could also reach as far as Greece "proper" already by ca. 580, when they sacked Athens, for which there is archaeological evidence (other sources indicate that Slavs started to settle in Attica and the Peloponnese only later, around 610). In 599 Pope Gregory I in a letter to Exarch of Italy wrote that Slavs had already seized most of Istria, and were penetrating into the Italian Peninsula. After mentioned invasions by Slavs, in 584 AD Byzantine Emperor Maurice sent emissaries to the Khagan of the Avars - Bayan I -, asking him for help against Slavs. The Avars initially worked as Byzantine allies against the Slavs. In 584 Ardagast with his Slavs besieged Constantinople but was repulsed by combined Byzantine-Avar forces, and later lost two more battles against Byzantine and Avar forces led by certain Comentiolus (the battle of Erginia River and the battle of Ansinon, near Hadrianopole). Comentiolus also pushed the Slavic settlers out of the region of Astica. In 585 the Byzantines-Avars decided to attack the original South Slavic lands across the Danube - forces under command of Priscus and Gentzon crossed the river at Dorostolon (present-day Silistra) and surprise-attacked the Slavs in their native territory (as most of their forces had long been campaigning in the Byzantine part of Balkans). They attacked at midnight and defeated the Slavs, Ardagast fell on a tree stump and was almost captured, luckily he was near a river and eluded the attackers. But later alliances switched - the Avars abandoned their Byzantine allies and instead started to cooperate with the Slavs, having subordinated some of their tribes (most notably the southern branch of Dudlebes), and having signed alliances with other tribes. So the conquest and colonization of most of the Balkans by the Slavs could be completed with Avar help in the early 600s. Avars were not very numerous but they were excellent horsemen, while Slavs comprised all of the infantry and crews of the navy, as well as some of the horsemen too.

But despite repeated attempts the Slavs-Avars never managed to capture two heavily fortified coastal cities - Constantinople and Thessalonica.

Croats and Serbs is another story. They came to the Balkans much later, in the 2nd half of the 7th century, invited by the Byzantines to fight against Avars and South Slavic tribes (ancestors of modern Bosniaks, Herzegovinians, Montenegrins, Macedonians, Bulgarians) in Dalmatia. Croats and Serbs were originally West Slavs. Slovenes emerged from two waves of Slavic immigration - one from the east (South Slavs) and one West Slavic - from the north - but which came earlier than Serbo-Croatian speakers. Before coming to the Balkans, Croats had established their tribal state somewhere around the Carpathian Mountains. It was called White Croatia. Ancestors of Serbs on the other hand, migrated in two directions - one wave settled in Germany (those became Sorbs), one in the Balkans.

==============================

Chronological differentiation of Slavic languages (Starostin 2004):

Dates along the X axis represent time since Common Slavic, while dates within the tree represent years:

Serbian could as well be named Serbo-Croatian: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian

According to this diagram, Common Slavic started to differentiate itself already between 130 AD and 270 AD.

This only supports written sources (Jordanes, Procopius, etc.) which say that Slavs were divided into several nations already in the 6th century.

So Slavs were not culturally monolithic by that time, and there already existed several distinct Slavic dialects / languages.

Polish language started to differentiate from Czecho-Slovak already around 780 AD according to this data.

=========================

An anthropological paper about Croats:

https://ariets.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/15311416.pdf

(...) Our results showed marked craniometrical similarities between early medieval Croat and medieval Polish series. Among all of the 39 analyzed European sites, the two exhibiting the greatest similarities were Nin, a site representing the nucleus of the early medieval Croat state (72), and Cedynia, a Polish site located approximately 75 km south of the Baltic Sea. Conversely, the 5 analyzed Iranian sites exhibited no similarity with the early medieval Croat sites and were all located in the diametrically opposite part of the scatter plot. These results suggest that early medieval Croats were of Slavic ancestry, and that early medieval Croats and Poles at one time shared a common homeland. Recent genetic analyses of the nonrecombining Y chromosome from 25 extant European and Middle Eastern populations support the Slavic affiliation of the Croats, and also indicate significant genetic similarities between modern Croats and Poles (1). (...)

 

[Tomenable]

Slavic R1a could be brought to Italy after year 598, when Slavic people penetrated into Italy through Istria.

That was reported for example by Pope Gregory I in his letter (dated 599 AD) to Exarch of Italy:

"(...) It deeply afflicts and disquiets me the Slavic nation that menace us. It afflicts me from what I already suffer from you, it disquiets me because they have already started to penetrate into the Italic Peninsula through Istria. (...)" - Pope Gregory I

Also later there were Slavic raids against Italy, and some settlements were established in Italy by Slavic pirates coming across the Adriatic Sea.

Some episodes are mentioned for example in "Historia Langobardorum" written by Paul the Deacon in the 8th century AD:

"Historia Langobardorum", Book 4, chapter XLIV:

Then on the death of Arichis, who had held the dukedom fifty years, Aio, his son, was made leader of the Samnites, [1] and still Radoald and Grimoald [2] obeyed him in all things as their elder brother and lord. When this Aio had already governed the dukedom of Beneventum a year and five months, the Slavs came with a great number of ships and set up their camp not far from the city of Sipontum (Siponto). They made hidden pit-falls around their camp and when Aio came upon them in the absence of Raduald and Grimoald and attempted to conquer them, his horse fell into one of these pit-falls, the Slavs rushed upon him and he was killed with a number of others.

"Historia Langobardorum", Book 6, chapter XXIV:

When Ado who we said was caretaker [1] had died at Forum Julii, Ferdulf, a man tricky and conceited, who came from the territories of Liguria, obtained the dukedom. Because he wanted to have the glory of a victory over the Slavs, he brought great misfortune upon himself and the people of Forum Julii. He gave sums of money to certain Slavs to send upon his request an army of Slavs into this province, and it was accordingly done. But that was the cause of great disaster in this province of Forum Julii. The freebooters of the Slavs fell upon the flocks and upon the shepherds of the sheep that pastured in their neighborhoods and drove away the booty taken from them. The ruler of that place, whom they called in their own language "sculdahis," [2] a man of noble birth and strong in courage and capacity, followed them, but nevertheless he could not overtake the freebooters. Duke Ferdulf met him as he was returning thence and when he asked him what had become of these robbers, Argait, for that was his name, answered that they had escaped. Then Ferdulf in rage thus spoke to him: "When could you do anything bravely, you whose name, Argait, comes from the word coward," [3] and Argait, provoked by great anger, since he was a brave man, answered as follows: "May God so will that you and I, duke Ferdulf, may not depart from this life until others know which of us is the greater coward." When they had spoken to each other in turn, these words, in the vulgar tongue [4] it happened not many days afterwards, that the army of the Slavs, for whose coming duke Ferdulf had given his sums of money, now arrived in great strength. And when they had set their camp upon the very top of a mountain and it was hard to approach them from almost any side, duke Ferdulf, coming upon them with his army, began to go around that mountain in order that he could attack them by more level places. Then Argait of whom we have spoken thus said to Ferdulf: "Remember, duke Ferdulf, that you said I was lazy and useless and that you called me in our common speech a coward, but now may the anger of God come upon him who shall be the last of us to attack those Slavs," and saying these words, he turned his horse where the ascent was difficult on account of the steepness of the mountain, and began to attack the fortified camp of the Slavs. Ferdulf, being ashamed not to attack the Slavs himself, through the same difficult places, followed him through those steep and hard and pathless spots, and his army too, considering it base not to follow their leader, began also to press on after him. Consequently the Slavs, seeing that they were coming upon them through steep places, prepared themselves manfully, and fighting against them more with stones and axes [1] than with arms they threw them nearly all from their horses and killed them. And thus they obtained their victory, not by their own strength, but by chance. There all the nobility of the Friulans perished. There duke Ferdulf fell and there too he who had provoked him was killed. And there so great a number of brave men were vanquished by the wickedness and thoughtlessness of dissension as could, with unity and wholesome counsel, overthrow many thousands of their enemies.

==========================

One of most important Italian bases of ethnically Slavic pirates and settlers in Central Italy was Bari.

There were also some Slavic settlements in Calabria - Slavic language was spoken there until the 12th century.

Among Muslim invaders of Southern Italy and Sicily, there were also Slavic mercenaries and people of ethnic Slavic descent:

(...) In the third decade of the 10th century, due to Byzantine threat, came from Tripoli Emir Masud the Slav (Masud Sāqlābi) - of Slavic descent - and together with his druzhina he captured the strategically important castle of Santa Agata. From the same period we have information about Slavic settlements on Sicily - one of them was called Sclafani - and about the district of Palermo called Hārat as-Sāqāliba. Also bases of Slavic pirates existed on that island - those could be pirates from the South Slavic tribe of Narentines, who during their pirate raids plundered even the coasts of Spain. Last information about Slavs in that region is from the 12th century. (...)

 

[Vallicanus]

Vallicanus have you some hidden psy problem?

No do you?

 

[Tomenable]

Also most white Americans who take up over 60% of the U.S. population are mainly of Germanic ancestry

White Americans are mostly R1b. I have data on U.S. haplogroups if you are interested. Unfortunately no data on subclades (and I don't think that this data is fully representative - it is too small a sample and not from all 50 states, but only from some states - and as we know various states greatly differ in terms of ethno-ancestral composition of their populations). American Y-DNA seems to match the British Isles best. They have much more R1b than Germans and Scandinavians.

So it seems (from haplogroup frequencies) that American population is mostly British-derived and this makes them rather Celto-Germanic.

There is also fragmentary data on specific ancestry groups in the USA. For example Underhill 2014 published data on R1a among Czech-Americans.

I think one of major sources for R1a in the USA are Polish-Americans (who are also the most numerous of Slavic ancestries there).

Unfortunately the source from which I have my data on haplogroups in the USA, does not have info on subclades, IIRC.

I have no data on Canada but it is surely more Italo-Celtic than the U.S. due to its large population of French origin.

I have also detailed data on ancestry responses in the U.S. census of 2000 (and less detailed from other censuses since 1980). But this data has large gaps because first of all most people are already of mixed ancestry (and they report what they think is coolest to report), and secondly there is a large group of people who do not report any ancestry (in the census of 2000 almost 54 million Americans - 53,673,566 - did not provide any answer to the question about ancestry at all).

Many people of course report more than one ancestry, but it seems that U.S. Census Bureau counts only 1st and 2nd answers, and no more.

I have data from 2000 census divided into numbers for 1st ancestry and 2nd ancestry (wikipedia articles always give the summ of both).

Ancestry question was first introduced in 1980 and - interestingly - in the first census English ancestry was the most numerous one.

Later English ancestry for some declined as if someone exterminated half of English-Americans. This is illustrated below:

Here is what I meant, when I wrote that English ancestry declined as if someone exterminated English-Americans:

"English" ancestry (self-reported, both 1st and 2nd answers):

1980 - 49,60 million
1990 - 32,65 million
2000 - 24,51 million
2010 - 25,93 million

And this decline in self-reported English ancestry cannot be explained simply by increase of "American" ancestry:

"American" ancestry (self-reported, both 1st and 2nd answers):

1980 - 13,30 million
1990 - 12,40 million
2000 - 20,19 million
2010 - 19,98 million

The increase in "American" ancestry does not compensate for entire loss in "English".

Especially between 1980 and 1990 we can see, that both "American" and "English" ancestries declined in numbers.

 

[Hauteville]

I don't know what kind of problems has Vallicanus, but he just disturbs this thread. By the way, some Slavs settled in Italy in the Byzantine era and it's historically documented.
In Molise there is a community who speak Croat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molise_Croats
Friuli Venezia Giulia has a Slavia Friulana. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavia_Friulana
Slavs in the Byzantine Calabria. http://www.academia.edu/6488810/Gli_Slavi_nella_Calabria_bizantina
Slavs settlement around Ragusa/Siracusa. http://www.europaorientalis.it/uploads/files/1983/1983.1.pdf

I will find other sources.

 

[Vallicanus]

Another psychologist from the ITALIC ROOTS website!

I'm entitled to my opinion which is that some South Italians think they are German