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Thread: Map of Celtic & Italic paternal lineages

  1. #1
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Post Map of Celtic & Italic paternal lineages

    I have created a map showing all Italo-Celtic subclades of R1b, namely everything downstream of S116 (P312). That represents most of the European R1b minus the Greco-Etruscan R1b-L23, the Germanic R1b-U106 and R1b-L238, and the Proto-Celto-Germanic L11, L51 and L150.

    S116 includes subclades associated with non-IE languages such as Basque, and the ancient Gascon and Iberian languages. Since it is unclear exactly when and where Celtic languages developed and whether some Proto-Celtic speakers might have adopted indigenous languages in the land they settled (especially in Gascony and Mediterranean Iberia), all lineages were included for the purpose of this map, giving priority to Y-DNA over languages.


    (Click on the map to enlarge)

    The S116/P312 mutation probably existed many centuries before the Indo-Europeans arrived in Central Europe. In all likelihood it became dominant in Western Europe due to a founder effect in the group of R1b men who established themselves north of the Alps circa 2500 BCE, taking over the Bell Beaker culture and replacing it within a couple of centuries by the Unetice culture. If we follow the archaeological record, these Proto-Celts brought their Bronze-age culture immediately to France, Iberia and the British Isles.

    Italy was settled later, once the Urnfield culture had developed north of the Alps. Urnfield might be seen as the cradle of the R1b-S28 (U152) subclade, which spawned the Italic tribes as well as the Hallstatt/La Tène Celts, who would become the Gauls.


    The presence of Celtic (mostly L21) lineages in Iceland and Norway is due to the Irish and Scottish people taking as slaves by the Vikings. Other Celtic lineages (mostly S28/U152) reached Scandinavia with German settlers.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 13-07-13 at 07:58.
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    Thanks for the map Maciamo! Great post

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    Great job on this map this explains alot about how Celtic and Italic tribes migrated and conquered western Europe.

    please correct me if i am wrong but it seems this is how Italo Celtic R1b S116 spread from 5,000-2,500ybp.

    They migrated out of the steppes(central Russia) to either the Balkans or Poland then aventulley made it to Germany about 5,000-4,500ybp and split from Germanic R1b S21 right away and started to mix and conquer the native western European Bell Beaker culture. That is why two 4,600 year old y DNA samples from central Germany Bell Beaker had R1b.

    then they became Unetice culture in Austria 4,300ybp and began to conquer alot of France and the alps. Unetice showed signs of being early Italo celtic they had torcs like the ancinet Gauls and tartens like modern Scottish and Irish.

    Then the Unetice became Tumuls culture about 1,600ybp the tumuls dominated france and the alps the first celtic speakers where either apart of tumuls or Unetice culture. i dont know when proto Insular Celtic speaking people with Y DNA R1b L21 conquered Britain and Ireland but it was probably over 3,000 years ago.

    Tumuls eventually gave birth to Urnfield culture. The Urnfield culture in the alps 3,500-3,300ybp where Italic and Celtic speakers that where some of the earliest Iron makers in the world. The Italic with Y DNA R1b s28 migrated and conquered northern Italy then aventuley the rest of Italy about 3,200-2,900ybp and became Villnovan culture then Villnovan mixed with Greeks and Mediterranean culture which gave birth to the culture early romans and other Italic tribes where apart of.

    The brother culture of Italic villnovaen was Celtic Hallstatt culture which started around austira about 2,800ybp, they also had Y DNA R1b s28. They dominated the Continental Celtic world and spread r1b s28 throughout Gaul. They mainly spread their culture and iron not R1b s28 aventulley people who had R1b Df27 and Hallstatt culture migrated to iberia and conquered most of it by 2,500ybp. Except eastern Iberia stayed mainly non celtic the native Iberians had a closer fight with Italo Celts than the rest of western Europe and in history they are known as Celtiberians. it seems the celts defintley had the upper hand because R1b Df27 is over 60% in iberia today so i dont know if they called themselves that.

    La Tene(decended from Hallstatt) celts from the alps around 2,500-2,200ybp also made huge migrations. according to ancient roman records they raided italics and non indo european estrucans. they also sacked rome. Halleste celts from the same area also migrated east and raided most land just north of the Balkans. Which is why R1b s28 today is found north of the balkens and they migrated to central Anatolia and became known as Galatians. but they also sacked many cites in Greece and the Greeks know them pretty well which could explain R1b s28 in greece i dont know why u did not include that is this map.

    In my opinon the reason why the Italo Celts conquered western Europe is because they had superior weapons to the native people and they had a warrior culture. The ancient Gauls i think still had that culture because the Celts in early roman times showed similarties in how they migrated and raided people to early Italo Celts. I cant find the sources for this but when Brennus sacked rome roman authors had almost a book full describing who brennus and these celts where and had many quotes of from brennus. Breenus said that if his tribe wants land and resources and their is a weaker tribe like Rome in their way there is nothing wrong with them conquering that weaker tribe. that is probably the mind set early italo Celts had when they conquered bell beaker culture.

    i hope u gpt that message i sent u about my account not working. i was able to post once today but it took about 20 attempts and my account still does no really work.

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    Another great map. Is there a reason why there is a drop in percentage around northern central France? After looking at the Germanic map it doesn't appear that a higher percentage of Germanic Y-DNA is the cause.

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberius View Post
    Another great map. Is there a reason why there is a drop in percentage around northern central France? After looking at the Germanic map it doesn't appear that a higher percentage of Germanic Y-DNA is the cause.
    France is very undersampled, so it may be wrong, but the present data for Île-de-France (Parisian region) has considerably more E1b1b, J1 and J2 than the national French average, and also less R1b. It could be due to a number of reasons such as immigration from southern and central Italy to Paris over the centuries, a stronger Roman presence in the region, or simply because the region was bypassed by the first Celtic migration and more Neolithic lineages survived. Interestingly the Île-de-France also has the highest percentage of R1a in France (about 10%). I think that all these oddities are due to undersampling, but I cannot invent data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    France is very undersampled, so it may be wrong, but the present data for Île-de-France (Parisian region) has considerably more E1b1b, J1 and J2 than the national French average, and also less R1b. It could be due to a number of reasons such as immigration from southern and central Italy to Paris over the centuries, a stronger Roman presence in the region, or simply because the region was bypassed by the first Celtic migration and more Neolithic lineages survived. Interestingly the Île-de-France also has the highest percentage of R1a in France (about 10%). I think that all these oddities are due to undersampling, but I cannot invent data.
    Why is the ancient Frisian lands all grey?
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    France is very undersampled, so it may be wrong, but the present data for Île-de-France (Parisian region) has considerably more E1b1b, J1 and J2 than the national French average, and also less R1b. It could be due to a number of reasons such as immigration from southern and central Italy to Paris over the centuries, a stronger Roman presence in the region, or simply because the region was bypassed by the first Celtic migration and more Neolithic lineages survived. Interestingly the Île-de-France also has the highest percentage of R1a in France (about 10%). I think that all these oddities are due to undersampling, but I cannot invent data.
    That sounds reasonable. Interesting nevertheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Why is the ancient Frisian lands all grey?
    There is a very high amount of Germanic Y-DNA there. Check out Maciamo's Germanic Y-DNA map

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberius View Post
    That sounds reasonable. Interesting nevertheless.


    There is a very high amount of Germanic Y-DNA there. Check out Maciamo's Germanic Y-DNA map
    i did, its in grey

    ancient frisian lands was from north netherlands to middle of denmark all along the coast

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    i did, its in grey

    ancient frisian lands was from north netherlands to middle of denmark all along the coast
    I think you're looking at the wrong map, chap. This is the Italo-Celtic Y-DNA distribution map, the one that shows Germanic Y-DNA has >75% Germanic Y-DNA in the areas you've just stated. I would link you but I haven't made enough posts yet to post links.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberius View Post
    I think you're looking at the wrong map, chap. This is the Italo-Celtic Y-DNA distribution map, the one that shows Germanic Y-DNA has >75% Germanic Y-DNA in the areas you've just stated. I would link you but I haven't made enough posts yet to post links.
    map on post #1 is grey for frisian lands, which map are you looking at?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post


    Italy was settled later, once the Urnfield culture had developed north of the Alps. Urnfield might be seen as the cradle of the R1b-S28 (U152) subclade, which spawned the Italic tribes as well as the Hallstatt/La Tène Celts, who would become the Gauls.
    How can you be so sure that the La Tene Celts did not have a lot of R1b U106?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    map on post #1 is grey for frisian lands, which map are you looking at?
    Yes, and why would it be any other colour considering the huge amounts of Germanic Y-DNA there?

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    it seems with this and the Germanic map that most English have both celtic and Germanic ancestors.

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    I wonder if the hotspot on kent and Sussex(I think) is from the belgae?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberius View Post
    Yes, and why would it be any other colour considering the huge amounts of Germanic Y-DNA there?
    Because frisian language is old-germanic language and that language is the base for the english language.

    check BBC
    the adventures of English

    If the frisians are grey and they are old-germanic, then what do we have?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Because frisian language is old-germanic language and that language is the base for the english language.

    check BBC
    the adventures of English

    If the frisians are grey and they are old-germanic, then what do we have?
    I honestly don't understand what you are talking about. This map shows the Celtic Y-DNA distribution throughout Europe. There is a grey area in the northern Netherlands, north-western Germany and western Denmark. This is because of a high percentage of Germanic Y-DNA that overwhelms the region. Yes, Frisians are Germanic and were closely related to the Anglo-Saxons who invaded Britain. Around this area the percentage of Celtic Y-DNA is only at 5-10% and considering the sheer number of Germanic settlers in this region it is no surprise that any Celtic inhabitants were either driven away or killed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberius View Post
    I honestly don't understand what you are talking about. This map shows the Celtic Y-DNA distribution throughout Europe. There is a grey area in the northern Netherlands, north-western Germany and western Denmark. This is because of a high percentage of Germanic Y-DNA that overwhelms the region. Yes, Frisians are Germanic and were closely related to the Anglo-Saxons who invaded Britain. Around this area the percentage of Celtic Y-DNA is only at 5-10% and considering the sheer number of Germanic settlers in this region it is no surprise that any Celtic inhabitants were either driven away or killed.
    ok, thats a plausible answer and what I was after.
    That map also answers the fact that celts and germanics have nothing incommon with each other in ancient times. clearly we see that the darker the colour the more celtic the area ( that is , less germanic mix ).
    The darkish AREAS IN THE BRITISH ISLES MATCHES THE CURREnt celtic linguistic area as well as brittany.

    Gascony and basque areas must have had a celtic presence for a long time.

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    first of all maciamo there seem to be something very wrong about my account. it is extremely slow i have to try about 10 times to few this website while on my account and about 20 times to post anything and it causes alot of problems like posting the samething twice. i am not trying to be rude but i have made this issue aware to u already. I sent u a messaage about it and mentioned it in a post on this thread. can u please respond and try to help ur the head of this website and are suppose to help people with stuff like this. the internet speed on this website in fine till i sign in and when i sign out it says cookies cleared as if there is a virus or something on my account.

    I already explained on my first comment how the Italo Celtic langauge, culture, and y dna r1b s116 conquered western europe from 5,000-2,500ybp. The reason they conquered western Europe is because they had superior weapons to the native western european culture like bell beaker and a total warrior culture. the ancient la dene and Hallstatt celts in my opinon still had a totally original Germanic italo celti warrior culture the same type that conquered western europe. Since Romans and Greeks wrote about them that is like having written sources of proto Germanic Italo Celtic speakers.

    here is a video that shows the type of warriors celts and probably proto italo celts and proto italo celtic germanic speakers that conquered western europe starting 5,000ybo where like
    http://www.spike.com/video-clips/dt9...ead-collectors

    The celts conquered Iberia(except eastern Iberia), northern italy(mainly the very advanced non indo european mid eastern estrucans), and much of eastern Europe from 2,600-2,200ybp. the Celts conquered, spread their language, and y dna r1b s116. mainly Iberia( execpt eastern Iberia) they conquered it just 2,600-2,400ybp modern Iberian have over 60% r1b s116. So the celts conquered people the same way the early italo Celts and Germanic speakers did.

    Basically i think reading what romans and greeks said about celts and archaeology can give a idea of how italo celts spread r1b s116 and how germanics spread r1b s21. Writing about Celts is like seeing writing of proto italo celts in my mind so it is very important.

    the italo celts did not conquer like rome they conquered like. italo celts and latter celtic tribes had very slow procces that took at least 100 years. the italo celtic tribes whould face less war like tribes with worse weapons and when they italo celts wanted food they conquered people. also their culture became dominte.

    the celtic conquering of iberia(except eastern) took about 100-300 years. they made the same type of conquering as the italics did in italy or as celts did no France they replaced the old y dna and old language. i am just saying for history sack also possibly dna look at the celts in roman greek writting and also archaeology look at mainly their war culture how they lived and that will give an idea of who the proto Italo Celts where. possibly also proto Germanic italo Celts. since ur an expert maciamo i am politelly asking for some feed back so i can learn some more about this subject

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    I already explained on my first comment how the Italo Celtic langauge, culture, and y dna r1b s116 conquered western europe from 5,000-2,500ybp. The reason they conquered western Europe is because they had superior weapons to the native western european culture like bell beaker and a total warrior culture. the ancient la dene and Hallstatt celts in my opinon still had a totally original Germanic italo celti warrior culture the same type that conquered western europe. Since Romans and Greeks wrote about them that is like having written sources of proto Germanic Italo Celtic speakers. here is a video that shows the type of warriors celts and probably proto italo celts and proto italo celtic germanic speakers that conquered western europe starting 5,000ybo where likehttp://www.spike.com/video-clips/dt9...ead-collectorsThe celts conquered Iberia(except eastern Iberia), northern italy(mainly the very advanced non indo european mid eastern estrucans), and much of eastern Europe from 2,600-2,200ybp. the Celts conquered, spread their language, and y dna r1b s116. mainly Iberia( execpt eastern Iberia) they conquered it just 2,600-2,400ybp modern Iberian have over 60% r1b s116. So the celts conquered people the same way the early italo Celts and Germanic speakers did.the Romans wrote books about the Celts that ravaged many greekifed Italic and Etruscan organized civilizations in Italy and sacked Rome. These books have many quotes from the Celtic chief of this tribe his name was Brennus which in Celtic language's means royalty of king it was what they called all of their chiefs and royal families. i cant find the link to it now but it was so many pages there was one part i read where it quoted brennus saying
    originally said by Celtic Cheif brennus 390bc) what my tribe is doing is just because we are growing and need more land to farm and need more food and if weaker people are in our way like the Romans we can take it by force
    that was not an exact quotation i simplified it. Brennus showed alot of dis respect for Romans and to other people not from his tribe. the Celts and breenus where very prideful that is what many ancient writers said and they where extremely aggressive and war like. Romans and Greeks say the Celtic warriors in the front lines where tall with rippiling muscles and naked showing no fear and would be shouting harsh and loud war crys and slashing their swords on their shields they also would spike up their hair and had alot of war paint.in battle when stabbed in battle would go berserk and take the weapon out of their body and throw it back at their enemy in a total rage. They would charge naked even alone or in a small group against a large number of full armed soldiers. This shows a ton of bravery it reminds me of the Spartans from ancient Greece. they where literally scared of nothing. Romans and Greeks said Celts did not have unified armies during battle it was scattered and un organized alot unlike Roman, Greeks, and other organized civilized nations in the middle east and north Africa did.another big part of Celtic war culture was trash talking. According to roman an Greek writers the celts would have long fights trying to be little their enemy by insulting them and claiming they have great warriors in their ancestry and bragging about what they have done in war. and they said when the Celts are having a feast when a man wants to become a higher rank or recognized as a tough fighter and warrior they would challenge someone else who was above them or at the same leval. most ended in fist fights but sometimes the guys brought weapons or beat someone nearlly to death so tribal members stopped it before someone died. that is alot like modern american iner city gang culture. the celts would also wear very colorful tartens, amazing jewly, tatoos to look cool and they had amazing long iron swords with very decorative handles to show off and look intimidating another features alot like modern american iner city gang culture. the romans and greeks also said the celts had bad endurence and would retreat in battle if they where obvisouly going to loose. the Romans and Greeks probably exaggerated, how tall, prideful, angre, aggressive, blonde haired, when out done or losing cowardness and low endurance. really where because these where stero types they had of european tribes who lived north of them and any none roman/greek people including Persians and Carthaginians. The prideful, low endurance, and cowardness in losing situations part of Celts is what Greeks but on many of their enemies because. Greeks saw to much pride, low endurance, and cowardness in a losing situation as a very bad sins and said that about many of their enemies.sorry this is so long but i want for my self and other people to get an idea of who the proto italo Celts but also proto Germanic italo celtic speakers where like. i defintley think the Celts still had the warrior culture that conquered western Europe and many other cultural characteristics. differnt cultures have differnt tough guys personalites iner city black american culture tyep of tough guy has a very differnt personality that rural hillbilly tough guys do and the same for old fashioned Italian iner city culture. so the celts could have had the same type of warrior and tough guys personalty of the early italo Celts 4,000ybp or early italo Celtic Germanic speakers.and macaimo u understand history better than any one on the website. u know that 3,300ybp all italo celtic language where only around france, austira, switzerland, and possibly briatain and ireland. then the iron age italics 3,00-2,800ybp conquered italy and their brother culture Hallstatt celts conquered celts in france and aventulley conquered iberia in just a few hundered years, most of italo celtic conquering of western europe happened 3,000-2,500ybp these people that did it had culture almost exactley identical to the Celts romans and greeks knew.the italo celts did not conquer like rome they conquered like celts it was a very slow procces that took at least 100 years. the italo celtic tribes whould face less war like tribes with worse weapons and when they italo celts wanted food they conquered people. also their culture became dominte. the celtic conquering of iberia(except eastern) took about 100-300 years. they made the same type of conquering as the italics did in italy or as celts did no France they replaced the old y dna and old language. i am just saying for history sack also possibly dna look at the celts in roman greek writting and also archeiolgy look at mainly their war culture how they lived and that will give an idea of who the proto italo celts where. possibly also proto Germanic italo Celts. since ur an expert maciamo i eould like to get some feed back

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjlowery87 View Post
    I wonder if the hotspot on kent and Sussex(I think) is from the belgae?
    Belgae, Romans, Normans...

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    [QUOTE Originally Posted by Maciamo]non-IE languages such as Basque, and the ancient Gascon and Iberian languages. Since it is unclear exactly when and where Celtic languages developed and whether some Proto-Celtic speakers might have adopted indigenous languages in the land they settled (especially in Gascony and Mediterranean Iberia)[/QUOTE]

    According to Ceasar there where three parts of Gaul one of them being the Aquitania(1). Who lived in modern day Basque country and spoke proto Basque(2) so ur speculation was correct Basque ancestors spoke a non Celtic language but culturally where Celtic and their Y DNA was also Celtic.

    also how do u make a word a link. like if i am talking about for example candy how do i make the word candy a link. Instead of copy and pasting the web address.

    also i still have a huge problem with my account please help

    (1)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul
    (2)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquitanian_language

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