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Thread: Ordering a DNA test in France is a crime punishable by heavy fines and jail time

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pi gman View Post
    At any rate, in one conversation with a Frenchman I asked him about the French view of DNA tests and he replied that he did not really think it was worth it. I suppose, if you are French, the feeling is why look further!
    I have also tried fro many years to stimulate interest in genetic genealogy among French speakers, but was confronted with the same kind of reaction. French speakers (in France, Belgium or Switzerland) have an incomprehensible lack of interest in genetics. It is not related to the ban on DNA tests in France since the tests are perfectly legal in Belgium and Switzerland. In both countries the gap in orders between French- and Dutch-/German- speakers is huge. The Brabant DNA Project, sponsored by the Flemish government, expanded its range to the whole of Belgium, but after several years they never managed to find enough participants from French-speaking Belgium. There were over 10 times less French-speakers ordering the test than Flemish speakers. That is utterly baffling. I have tried hard to convince relatives and friends to take DNA tests, either for ancestry or medical risks, but nobody cares, even those with a medical background !
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have also tried fro many years to stimulate interest in genetic genealogy among French speakers, but was confronted with the same kind of reaction. French speakers (in France, Belgium or Switzerland) have an incomprehensible lack of interest in genetics. It is not related to the ban on DNA tests in France since the tests are perfectly legal in Belgium and Switzerland. In both countries the gap in orders between French- and Dutch-/German- speakers is huge. The Brabant DNA Project, sponsored by the Flemish government, expanded its range to the whole of Belgium, but after several years they never managed to find enough participants from French-speaking Belgium. There were over 10 times less French-speakers ordering the test than Flemish speakers. That is utterly baffling. I have tried hard to convince relatives and friends to take DNA tests, either for ancestry or medical risks, but nobody cares, even those with a medical background !
    Now ban of testing makes better sense. French Law mirrors mentality and customs of society. It might be true to any democratic country.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Now ban of testing makes better sense. French Law mirrors mentality and customs of society. It might be true to any democratic country.
    Much more important to my French friend is how to reduce the amount of carbon emissions by using less fossil fuels. We have discussed the best possible ways for countries to produce electricity with minimum impact on the environment. He disagrees with nuclear power plants as a good option even though the majority of electricity in France is produced this way. In contrast to the U.S., French are much more interested in lowering world pollution. The solar impulse team from Switzerland and France recently completed a flight across America without using one drop of fuel by flying an experimental airplane powered only by solar panels. I watched it being streamed live every chance I had.

    I have looked at houses for sale in France and they most always list the carbon footprint of the house.... something that is never done here. It would be a great place for me and my family to live except for the somewhat restrictive laws regarding home schooling and of course the law which forbids DNA testing. I do however like the environmentalist/minimalist approach to living and my wife and I think more like Europeans than Americans. We especially like the systems of trains and buses used in France and in Europe rather that what we have here. Living without a car would be something I would like to try again.

    Some of the French are interested in genealogy and some are very keenly working on the records and have released a huge number of them dating back to the 16th and 17th centuries. These are mostly free on line. Now if I could just learn some more French! They are just not really interested in DNA.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pi gman View Post
    Much more important to my French friend is how to reduce the amount of carbon emissions by using less fossil fuels. We have discussed the best possible ways for countries to produce electricity with minimum impact on the environment. He disagrees with nuclear power plants as a good option even though the majority of electricity in France is produced this way. In contrast to the U.S., French are much more interested in lowering world pollution. The solar impulse team from Switzerland and France recently completed a flight across America without using one drop of fuel by flying an experimental airplane powered only by solar panels. I watched it being streamed live every chance I had.

    I have looked at houses for sale in France and they most always list the carbon footprint of the house.... something that is never done here. It would be a great place for me and my family to live except for the somewhat restrictive laws regarding home schooling and of course the law which forbids DNA testing. I do however like the environmentalist/minimalist approach to living and my wife and I think more like Europeans than Americans. We especially like the systems of trains and buses used in France and in Europe rather that what we have here. Living without a car would be something I would like to try again.

    Some of the French are interested in genealogy and some are very keenly working on the records and have released a huge number of them dating back to the 16th and 17th centuries. These are mostly free on line. Now if I could just learn some more French! They are just not really interested in DNA.
    I gather that French are very romantic people. They dream and hope for good genealogy, descended from good families, than be disappointed by genetic tests. Their environmental views are more of romantic kind than pragmatic and based on statistics.

    PS. I like French language too, but no time nor memory to learn fast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Now ban of testing makes better sense. French Law mirrors mentality and customs of society. It might be true to any democratic country.
    I wasn't referring to paternity tests, which is the main target of the French ban. Most French lawmakers probably aren't even aware of what genetic genealogy is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pi gman View Post
    Much more important to my French friend is how to reduce the amount of carbon emissions by using less fossil fuels. We have discussed the best possible ways for countries to produce electricity with minimum impact on the environment. He disagrees with nuclear power plants as a good option even though the majority of electricity in France is produced this way. In contrast to the U.S., French are much more interested in lowering world pollution.
    ...
    I have looked at houses for sale in France and they most always list the carbon footprint of the house.... something that is never done here.
    Europeans in general are more interested in lowering world pollution than Americans. It is not a French phenomenon. Actually the French are not at the forefront in the matter of eco-consciousness. That would be the Germans and the Scandinavians.

    Some of the French are interested in genealogy and some are very keenly working on the records and have released a huge number of them dating back to the 16th and 17th centuries. These are mostly free on line. Now if I could just learn some more French! They are just not really interested in DNA.
    What baffled me is that I have tried to promote genetic genealogy on French-speaking genealogy forums and even there the interest was almost inexistent.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Could the "genetic avoidance" found in France have anything to do with their experiences in WWII (talk of "pure" Aryan race, etc.)? There are charged elements inherent the field of DNA-- maybe the French want nothing to do with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    Could the "genetic avoidance" found in France have anything to do with their experiences in WWII (talk of "pure" Aryan race, etc.)? There are charged elements inherent the field of DNA-- maybe the French want nothing to do with it.
    That could be the real reason! The experience of the French going through WWII would have been horrible as I heard my parents and grandparents talk about it. I have often thought that could be the problem and much closer to home than for us. Even if the current generation did not experience the horrors of the war, their parents and grandparents in France did.

    Have you ever seen the footage from that era when the Nazis were marching-parading through Paris? It would be something that would have terrified all of them to their very core.

    Being able to identify certain ethnic groups would be a fearful thing especially if someone like Hitler or even J. Edgar Hoover had that information and used it against us!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    Could the "genetic avoidance" found in France have anything to do with their experiences in WWII (talk of "pure" Aryan race, etc.)? There are charged elements inherent the field of DNA-- maybe the French want nothing to do with it.
    Very doubtful. French speakers are really the only exception in Western Europe. As I explained before, Belgians are very strongly divided along linguistic lines for DNA tests. Yet their experience of WWII was identical. Besides, if anybody should feel awkward about talks of genetic purity it is the Germans themselves. Yet there are plenty of DNA results from Germany.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Very doubtful. French speakers are really the only exception in Western Europe. As I explained before, Belgians are very strongly divided along linguistic lines for DNA tests. Yet their experience of WWII was identical. Besides, if anybody should feel awkward about talks of genetic purity it is the Germans themselves. Yet there are plenty of DNA results from Germany.
    Well, it's a mystery either way. I'm surprised by the number of people here in the U.S. who want nothing to do with historical genetic testing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    Well, it's a mystery either way. I'm surprised by the number of people here in the U.S. who want nothing to do with historical genetic testing.
    Nordic,

    It may be similar to the huge indifference most people here in the U.S. have towards genealogy in general. My wife and I both love genealogy but we know very few family members or friends who enjoy our hobby.

    Most people do not know past their grandparents what their heritage is. What makes it worse for some of us, we are just beginning to get hints of our immigrant's countries of origin. This seems to be vastly different from the majority of Americans as most can identify their ancestry to English, Irish, Italian, etc.

    In both of our ancestral lines we cannot find any who came through Ellis Island. They were already here in the 1600's or earlier. Finding those records through the pre revolution history is almost impossible!

    More records are appearing on line all the time, however, and we still have some hope!
    Last edited by Pi gman; 18-07-13 at 23:18. Reason: typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Very doubtful. French speakers are really the only exception in Western Europe. As I explained before, Belgians are very strongly divided along linguistic lines for DNA tests. Yet their experience of WWII was identical. Besides, if anybody should feel awkward about talks of genetic purity it is the Germans themselves. Yet there are plenty of DNA results from Germany.
    Why exactly should Germans feel more awkward than others when doing DNA test?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    Could the "genetic avoidance" found in France have anything to do with their experiences in WWII (talk of "pure" Aryan race, etc.)? There are charged elements inherent the field of DNA-- maybe the French want nothing to do with it.
    I also think it's possible, especially when thinking about eugenicidal tendencies and severe privacy violations. Since the French are known for having national pride, they are possibly a little bit more aware not to be controlled by foreign powers. Just my guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Why exactly should Germans feel more awkward than others when doing DNA test?
    I personally don't think they should feel awkard about it. I was replying to nordicquarreler who said that the French 'genetic avoidance' might be due to their experience of Nazi eugenics during WWII. My point was that if the French had any qualms about DNA testing because of that, then the Germans should too as their memory of Nazi eugenics is even stronger than in France.

    Anyway I completely disagree with nordicquarreler that this is a reason why modern French people avoid DNA tests. It's a fanciful argument from someone who doesn't know much about France or French people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I personally don't think they should feel awkard about it. I was replying to nordicquarreler who said that the French 'genetic avoidance' might be due to their experience of Nazi eugenics during WWII. My point was that if the French had any qualms about DNA testing because of that, then the Germans should too as their memory of Nazi eugenics is even stronger than in France.

    Anyway I completely disagree with nordicquarreler that this is a reason why modern French people avoid DNA tests. It's a fanciful argument from someone who doesn't know much about France or French people.
    Ok, but I was referring to the french laws not the people. I'm thinking that Iceland once got a lot of money from selling their genome to a US company back in 2000. Maybe France considers its genome like an asset too. If they would allow DNA tests then the neighbouring data octopussy would steal them easily, especially when done by foreign companies. Probably the french court ensures that the DNA tests are done by french companies only?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    This is not a joke. Read this article. I have had confirmation from official French websites that this was entirely true. If you order a paternity test via the Internet or by telephone in France, you risk a year in prison and a fine of € 15,000 (Article 226-28 of the Penal Code).

    Practically any DNA test can be construed as a paternity test, even if it is not advertised as such. Anybody can disprove a man's paternity by comparing even very limited segments of DNA between two individuals. The only DNA test that wouldn't count as paternity test would be an mtDNA test (as mitochondrial DNA is only inherited through one's mother). Even an extremely basic test for a single mutation could in practice happen to disprove a paternity event, if the presumed father and son are homozygous for different alleles (e.g. the presumed father has the CC allele while the son has TT). The last example will only be conclusive in a minority of cases, but can still be regarded as a form of paternity test.

    Since there is no probation possible for a paternity test (once you know, you know, and it cannot be undone), the jail sentence provided by the law cannot be converted into a suspended sentence. French judges also happen to have much less freedom to interpret the law as in countries using common law (i.e. in most of the English-speaking world). A French judge has to enforce the law the way lawmakers enacted it. In other words ordering a DNA in France will inevitably land you in prison if you are found guilty.

    With this ridiculous legislation, France, the so-called land of Human Rights, is breaching some of men's most fundamental modern rights:

    - the right of knowing one's genome, knowing who one is.
    - the right of knowing one's genetic risks for diseases.
    - the right of knowing for sure that a man is the father of his children
    - the right of knowing if one was adopted
    - the right to search for one's biological parent(s)
    - the right to use genetic genealogy to complete one's paper genealogy.
    - the right to know one's genetic make-up from a population genetics's point of view (knowing one's "ethnic admixtures" and where one fits in the world's genetic landscape).


    It is time that French lawmakers put an end to this absurdity. What I cannot understand is how the French people, known for going on strike and staging nationwide demonstrations at the drop of a hat for much less serious infringement of their rights, and sometimes even for necessary reforms, have never objected to this serious breach of rights. How can the French gather millions of demonstrators for or against gay marriage (which concerns only a small minority of the population), but not fight for the essential rights listed above. How can a man ever love and care about his children without knowing if they are truly his ? And how can you invest in a proper upbringing and education of your kids if you don't know for sure they are yours ? It may sound cynical, but the figures don't lie. In any country, whatever the culture, religion, or degree of sexual freedom, at least a few percent of all children born under wedlock are not the husband's biological children. France has long been one of the most libertine countries on Earth, so French men should be more concerned than others about their presumed paternity.
    That's ridiculous, I had never heard of that. No wonder Gerard Depardieu is a Russian Citizen now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    I also think it's possible, especially when thinking about eugenicidal tendencies and severe privacy violations. Since the French are known for having national pride, they are possibly a little bit more aware not to be controlled by foreign powers. Just my guess.
    If that's the case this political correctness needs to come to an end in Europe. That's complete Bull

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    Could the "genetic avoidance" found in France have anything to do with their experiences in WWII (talk of "pure" Aryan race, etc.)?.
    Nope. Their experience wasn't that bad considering some other countries.
    My guess would be that the French government is aware of statistics on how much people practice sex out of marriage.

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    That's a shame because french dna is potentially one of the most interesting groups.

    I undertsand wanting to protect women, the injunction over actually testing yourself has got to be a mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silkyslovanbojkovsky View Post
    If that's the case this political correctness needs to come to an end in Europe. That's complete Bull
    It has nothing to do with political correctness, women protection or sex outside marriage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    It has nothing to do with political correctness, women protection or sex outside marriage.
    Ok, so what's it about, then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noman View Post
    Ok, so what's it about, then?
    My cousin in Toulouse said to me, that its about not allowing tests for paternity issues unless ordered by blah, blah...............a part I did not understand.

    He also said that tests for ancestry it was Ok
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    I'm not surprised...

    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    Well, it's a mystery either way. I'm surprised by the number of people here in the U.S. who want nothing to do with historical genetic testing.
    I'm not surprised that many in the U.S.A. do not want genetic testing. There is a very traditional Christian element that believes strongly that God created Man in his image and do not condone evolutionary studies, beliefs or teachings. DNA testing and all the implications they bring would not be in favour with this group.

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    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    2 members found this post helpful.
    If a can say something concerning France, I would say it is become a "jacobine" centralist state which always fear the regionalisms and has repulsion to teach and learn the multiform an somewhat different histories of its provinces (current borders of France are very young in front of History, indeed!!! nothing eternel in it!) - the "Jacobines" won the french revolution and dreamed a monolitic state where all citizens are "equal" and "interchangeable" (the result is an inequallist country concerning social classes spite the verbal affirmations but with uniformised culture, just the contrary of what was to hope, for I think - so, genetic studies that could destroy the myth of collective uniformity beside "richness" of individual variability is a danger for the Republic! the other reasons concerning indiviual private protection are just a pretext, I believe - when french politic people speak about "decentralisation" they think "délocalisation of centralised services" with always the same central power -

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    If a can say something concerning France, I would say it is become a "jacobine" centralist state which always fear the regionalisms and has repulsion to teach and learn the multiform an somewhat different histories of its provinces (current borders of France are very young in front of History, indeed!!! nothing eternel in it!) - the "Jacobines" won the french revolution and dreamed a monolitic state where all citizens are "equal" and "interchangeable" (the result is an inequallist country concerning social classes spite the verbal affirmations but with uniformised culture, just the contrary of what was to hope, for I think - so, genetic studies that could destroy the myth of collective uniformity beside "richness" of individual variability is a danger for the Republic! the other reasons concerning indiviual private protection are just a pretext, I believe - when french politic people speak about "decentralisation" they think "délocalisation of centralised services" with always the same central power -
    I agree. France is the only large country in Western Europe where the state does all it can to avoid recognising the unique ethno-cultural, linguistic and historical identities of its regions. Its ironic considering that France is the most diverse country in Europe in all these respects. The UK, Germany, Italy and Spain all have states or autonomous regions. Only France doesn't.

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