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Thread: Ordering a DNA test in France is a crime punishable by heavy fines and jail time

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I agree. France is the only large country in Western Europe where the state does all it can to avoid recognising the unique ethno-cultural, linguistic and historical identities of its regions. Its ironic considering that France is the most diverse country in Europe in all these respects. The UK, Germany, Italy and Spain all have states or autonomous regions. Only France doesn't.
    This is the laicism of which Atatürk adopted his kemalism and which yet makes it so hard for Turkey to become a democratic country. And they ALWAYS use France as prime example for their absurd political system. It always swings between a kemalist to a radical islamistic system.
    Last edited by Alan; 01-06-14 at 14:27.

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    probably cause they dont want people to discover some illegitimate royalty

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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewqazx View Post
    probably cause they dont want people to discover some illegitimate royalty
    Try illegitimate politicians and businessmen' kids.
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    This is a very weird article. I have found French people on 23andme who have done it DNA testing though. Don't know if it was before that law was enabled.

    I think this "law" is absolutely ridiculous. France always has the most ridiculous laws IMO. France is basically a Marxist totalitarian state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Try illegitimate politicians and businessmen' kids.
    I know the real reason why :) But I cannot state it here; as it is controversial and illegal.

    I'll just say, in a subtler way; that France's laws are implemented with an agenda by Communist extremists who don't believe in "race".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    I know the real reason why :) But I cannot state it here; as it is controversial and illegal.

    I'll just say, in a subtler way; that France's laws are implemented with an agenda by Communist extremists who don't believe in "race".
    It's true that the French government tries hard, through the media and education, to make its citizens believe that races and ethnicities don't exist. It is even illegal in France to make statistics about ethnic groups. Once immigrants have been naturalised, they are French and that's it. There are no statistics showing the actual percentage of people with this or that ancestry. That's the opposite of the USA where people are constantly asked to choose their racial group (Caucasian, Hispanic, African-American, Native American, etc.) when filling forms. The only way one can guess the number of people of Maghreban descent living in France, for instance, is to look at the total number of Muslim people (and deduct a few percent's for other ancestry).

    But that's not the reason DNA are banned in France. The ban specifically targets paternity test and dates back from 1992, an age when it was impossible to predict a person's ancestry accurately through a DNA test (mind you it was still hard a few years ago).

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    I see what you're saying now. Still; I often wonder if these laws are more likewise to an extreme leftist Marxist agenda. Which is why the French haven't bothered to delete them.

    I have loads of French ancestry myself; but I don't really like speaking the language very much; or even being in France. It just seems a bit demeaning to me. If I speak it, it would be the Cajun French version; which is very different from Standard French. And the Acadian accent is more appropriate to me than the Standard French one. I believe the Cajun French dialect is more archaic; and also evolved a little over time with slight few differences. So if I spoke to a French person from France with the Cajun French dialect; it would probably be like a Norwegian talking to a Swede somewhat.

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    It does seem bizarre that a Western European country, with a strong and deeply-rooted liberal tradition, would completely deny its citizens the right to learn more about themselves - not about other persons -, through the use of widely accepted, non-invasive, non-immoral scientific tests. It's a law that would be more fitting to the USSR, where the oppressive State always had an interest in blurring, if not downright erasing, all notions of ethnicity within such a huge and diverse country (it didn't matter if you were a Zoroastrian Martian, you were a Soviet and nothing more)

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    As has been pointed out innumerable times, this law has nothing to do with ancestry testing...it has to do with paternity testing. There is nothing unusual in limiting the situations in which paternity can be contested. The problem is that the law is rather badly written and is thus susceptible to over-reaching on the part of the state.


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by andrewqazx View Post
    probably cause they dont want people to discover some illegitimate royalty
    The french royalty became "illegitimate" once they made Napoleon Bonaparte emperor ...............
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Even a prohibition on paternity testing seems nonsensical to me. Why can't someone know who their father is? It's entirely up to the State to decide who is the father of whom? Is it based on some kind of fear that DNA tests could start dissolving French families and make society collapse? I really don't get it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Degredado View Post
    Even a prohibition on paternity testing seems nonsensical to me. Why can't someone know who their father is? It's entirely up to the State to decide who is the father of whom? Is it based on some kind of fear that DNA tests could start dissolving French families and make society collapse? I really don't get it.
    One thing government hates is insecurity of property rights, particularly real property rights. Questions about paternity would cause all kinds of lawsuits relating to wills and estates. If someone can't be sure that a person who offers property for sale is the rightful owner, the government does have the right to be concerned about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The french royalty became "illegitimate" once they made Napoleon Bonaparte emperor ...............
    Oddly enough; Napoleon Bonaparte had the Jewish subclade of haplogroup E1b1b. And he wasn't even "French"; and was also Corsican and Italian in origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    Oddly enough; Napoleon Bonaparte had the Jewish subclade of haplogroup E1b1b. And he wasn't even "French"; and was also Corsican and Italian in origin.
    Are you saying that Greeks and Albanians are Jewish? They seem to have about as high a rate of E1b1b as Jewish people do. It's less common in Corsica but about 8% of the population has it, and they're not all Jewish. E1b1b is scattered all around Europe at various levels and has probably been there since the Neolithic. Why would it matter if Napolean had a bit of Jewish ancestry anyway? He considered himself to be Corsican and Catholic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    One thing government hates is insecurity of property rights, particularly real property rights. Questions about paternity would cause all kinds of lawsuits relating to wills and estates.
    Hmm, maybe. On the other hand, it basically allows men to evade all responsibility if they father an unwanted child. All he has to do is say, "well, the kid isn't mine", and then that's it? Unless French courts can determine paternity testing in such cases. The whole idea of this ban just seems like a heavy price to pay for a small gain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Are you saying that Greeks and Albanians are Jewish? They seem to have about as high a rate of E1b1b as Jewish people do. It's less common in Corsica but about 8% of the population has it, and they're not all Jewish. E1b1b is scattered all around Europe at various levels and has probably been there since the Neolithic. Why would it matter if Napolean had a bit of Jewish ancestry anyway? He considered himself to be Corsican and Catholic.
    Yes but he was in no way French. At least, genetically.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    There are paternity proceedings in every modern jurisdiction, in so far as I'm aware, and paternity tests are routinely used in those proceedings.* (including France)The question usually arises in the context of support or custody proceedings. A mother directly, or Social Services on her behalf, sues to get child support from a putative father, and dna testing is used to prove paternity. (The state is not interested in using tax dollars to support children if it can be avoided.)

    The more problematical situation is when a child is born in wedlock but the father either learns or suspects that he is not the biological father. Owing to the concern for family stability and the welfare of the child, there is, in every common law jurisdiction of which I'm aware, including the U.S., a presumption that a child conceived in wedlock is the child of the father. To defeat a claim for support or contest paternity a man must rebut that presumption. A dna test is one means, a new means, to overcome that presumption.

    However, despite any test showing that he is not the biological father, a man can still be held to be the "legal" father and be required to pay child support. This is based on the common law principle that the welfare of the child is the primary concern. Absent specific legislation, judges have a great deal of discretion, and they are allowed to look at things like the length of the relationship, whether the man acted in loco parentis etc. Of course, some of these outcomes can seem very unfair to the man. See the following article for real life situations in which this plays out.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/ma...anted=all&_r=0

    It should be noted that French courts can and do order paternity testing. They don't, however, allow individual men to acquire and administer the test themselves.

    *Edited for clarity
    Last edited by Angela; 13-01-15 at 23:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    Yes but he was in no way French. At least, genetically.
    Genetically, 7.5% of the total French population is E1b1b. The percentage varies dramatically from one part of the country to another, with the figures being higher for those parts of the country that probably still have a lot of Neolithic ancestry and lower in those areas where Indo-Europeans from the Eurasian steppes probably had more of a population replacement effect. So I suppose one could say that E1b1b is "more French" than R, since it's been in France longer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Genetically, 7.5% of the total French population is E1b1b. The percentage varies dramatically from one part of the country to another, with the figures being higher for those parts of the country that probably still have a lot of Neolithic ancestry and lower in those areas where Indo-Europeans from the Eurasian steppes probably had more of a population replacement effect. So I suppose one could say that E1b1b is "more French" than R, since it's been in France longer.
    There are different subclades of E1b1b though. E-V13 is the only one I know of that developed in the European/Caucasian race. I believe the one Napoleon Bonaparte has; E-M34 is actually the most common haplogroup in Ashkenazi Jews. But I don't know if you would consider them Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    There are different subclades of E1b1b though. E-V13 is the only one I know of that developed in the European/Caucasian race. I believe the one Napoleon Bonaparte has; E-M34 is actually the most common haplogroup in Ashkenazi Jews. But I don't know if you would consider them Europeans.
    There is no way of knowing when a specific line of E-M34 arrived in a particular area. It could have been any time from the Neolithic to the twenty years ago.

    As for the Jews, they carry a specific subclade of E-M34. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have tested the Buonaparte family lineage to a more specific subclade. Jews also carry lots of what used to be called J1e, J2a, R1a, R1b, and other y lineages.

    At any rate, a single uniparental marker does not determine ethnicity. Autosomes determine that, and if phenotype is any indication, Napoleon and his entire family have a great deal of Tuscan and Ligurian ancestry, as we indeed know from their documented family tree.

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    Update!
    Maybe it is OK for the government to do it, but not individuals?

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...cism-activists

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    This is not a joke. Read this article. I have had confirmation from official French websites that this was entirely true. If you order a paternity test via the Internet or by telephone in France, you risk a year in prison and a fine of € 15,000 (Article 226-28 of the Penal Code).

    Practically any DNA test can be construed as a paternity test, even if it is not advertised as such. Anybody can disprove a man's paternity by comparing even very limited segments of DNA between two individuals. The only DNA test that wouldn't count as paternity test would be an mtDNA test (as mitochondrial DNA is only inherited through one's mother). Even an extremely basic test for a single mutation could in practice happen to disprove a paternity event, if the presumed father and son are homozygous for different alleles (e.g. the presumed father has the CC allele while the son has TT). The last example will only be conclusive in a minority of cases, but can still be regarded as a form of paternity test.

    Since there is no probation possible for a paternity test (once you know, you know, and it cannot be undone), the jail sentence provided by the law cannot be converted into a suspended sentence. French judges also happen to have much less freedom to interpret the law as in countries using common law (i.e. in most of the English-speaking world). A French judge has to enforce the law the way lawmakers enacted it. In other words ordering a DNA in France will inevitably land you in prison if you are found guilty.

    With this ridiculous legislation, France, the so-called land of Human Rights, is breaching some of men's most fundamental modern rights:

    - the right of knowing one's genome, knowing who one is.
    - the right of knowing one's genetic risks for diseases.
    - the right of knowing for sure that a man is the father of his children
    - the right of knowing if one was adopted
    - the right to search for one's biological parent(s)
    - the right to use genetic genealogy to complete one's paper genealogy.
    - the right to know one's genetic make-up from a population genetics's point of view (knowing one's "ethnic admixtures" and where one fits in the world's genetic landscape).


    It is time that French lawmakers put an end to this absurdity. What I cannot understand is how the French people, known for going on strike and staging nationwide demonstrations at the drop of a hat for much less serious infringement of their rights, and sometimes even for necessary reforms, have never objected to this serious breach of rights. How can the French gather millions of demonstrators for or against gay marriage (which concerns only a small minority of the population), but not fight for the essential rights listed above. How can a man ever love and care about his children without knowing if they are truly his ? And how can you invest in a proper upbringing and education of your kids if you don't know for sure they are yours ? It may sound cynical, but the figures don't lie. In any country, whatever the culture, religion, or degree of sexual freedom, at least a few percent of all children born under wedlock are not the husband's biological children. France has long been one of the most libertine countries on Earth, so French men should be more concerned than others about their presumed paternity.

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    Do they really are so stupid
    that they banned genetic?

    And this is the graetest achievement
    that freewoldism+equality=stupidity

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    Quote Originally Posted by brianco View Post
    Update!
    Maybe it is OK for the government to do it, but not individuals?


    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...cism-activists
    Obviously the government has all the rights. The law clearly stipulates that DNA tests are allowed, even for individuals, upon court order. The government does not need this court authorisation.

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