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Thread: Turks with 10 - 25% Mongoloid admixture ( Turkish people autosomal DNA )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Interesting you have a link to this percentage?
    Udmurts


    Sayomedic 29.6%
    North Siberian 3.7%
    East Siberian 1.8%



    = 35.1%




    I believe these DNA can seen on their face


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurka atla View Post
    Udmurts


    Sayomedic 29.6%
    North Siberian 3.7%
    East Siberian 1.8%



    = 35.1%




    I believe these DNA can seen on their face

    Now the Question is, what is Sayomedic. I somehow doubt that it is entirely East Asian.

    The photo below is anyhing but Asiatic looking. They could even pass as Irish.

    Edit: As I thought Samoyedic component is not typical East Asian.

    The People called Samoyed are Uralic speakers and the Uralic speakers themselves are taken as reference population.

    And as we know Uralic speakers are far from being East Asian.

    So 30% Samoyedic ≠ 30% East Asian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Now the Question is, what is Sayomedic. I somehow doubt that it is entirely East Asian.

    The photo below is anyhing but Asiatic looking. They could even pass as Irish.

    Edit: As I thought Samoyedic component is not typical East Asian.

    The People called Samoyed are Uralic speakers and the Uralic speakers themselves are taken as reference population.

    And as we know Uralic speakers are far from being East Asian.

    So 30% Samoyedic ≠ 30% East Asian.
    Nenets have 77% Samoyedic components and look extremely Mongoloid





    And among the ethnic groups on the graph I posted it shows that Mansi have the highest samoyedic components among all the western uralics, they are almost 40% Mongoloid. Some of them sometimes appears East Asian.



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    I can also say the same for someone who is 25% Korean and 75% White, she can easily pass for Irish.






    Now check out this famous Udmurt women



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    @Gurka Atla

    No generally you can't say that a 25% East Asian and 75% West Eurasian turns Irish looking because most of the cases the Asian genes are more dominant in appearance. See Kazakhs or Uzbeks though being 50% West Eurasian they turn out looking very much East Asian on average.

    So an individual case is not a proof of the opposite but on the photo of the Udmurts you posted all the visible individuals on the group photo could easily blend in Northwest Europe.

    Even if the Sayomedic component was only 50% (most likely 75%) East Asian this would turn the people to look more Asian but than as a matter of fact the Nenets who are 77% of the "Sayomedic" component would most likely belong to 23% of other sorts of East Asian genes.


    So even if we considered the Sayomedic component being 2/3 EA there is still 23% to add from various other East Asian genes which would end up being something around 80% East Asian in total for them. So their look is not surprising at all. But the Udmurts look by far too West Eurasian to be genetically more than 25% East Asian on average. Just my 2 Cents.

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    9/10 of 25% East Asian + 75% Caucasian always look like a Caucasian. Asian genes are only dominant when is a evenly 50/50 mix otherwise this won't be case.



    Genetic of Turks

    Kazakhs are genetically 70-75% East Asian/Siberian



    Uzbeks are genetically 43- 46% East Asian/Siberian




    Chuvash people are 20-25% East Asian/Siberian




    Chuvash



    50% are between 25% - 27% Mongoloid




    2 samples: 27% Mongoloid
    3 Samples: 26% Mongoloid
    3 Samples: 25.5% Mongoloid
    1 Sample: 25% Mongoloid


    -----------


    38.88% are between 21% Mongoloid to 24.8% Mongoloid


    1 Sample: 24.8% Mongoloid
    1 Sample: 24% Mongoloid
    1 Sample: 23.5% Mongoloid
    3 Sample: 22% Mongoloid
    1 sample: 21% Mongoloid




    -------------


    5.55% are 6% Mongoloid


    1 Sample: 6% Mongoloid


    Chuvash people ( not sure if these ones are pure, someone from the forum said intermarriage with Russians )






    Some Chuvash do look more Mongoloid.





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    Kazakhs can range from 60 - 82% East Asian/Siberian but on average they are 70-75% East Asian/Siberian




    While Uzbeks can range from 27 to 56% East Asian/Siberian but the average is 40-45% East Asian/Siberian.






    It's not like 35% East Asian/Siberian can make the majority of Uralic to look more East Asian. East Asian appearance are only dominant when there is a 50/50 equivalent mixed however even that doesn't stop many Eurasians in America or Canadia who are 50% Mongoloid from looking like this.


    Mike shinoda, Japanese father and American mother



    Rachel Chung, 3/4 Chinese father and British mother



    Julian Kang, Korean father and Canadian mother








    Chuvash



    50% are between 25% - 27% Mongoloid




    2 samples: 27% Mongoloid
    3 Samples: 26% Mongoloid
    3 Samples: 25.5% Mongoloid
    1 Sample: 25% Mongoloid


    -----------


    38.88% are between 21% Mongoloid to 24.8% Mongoloid


    1 Sample: 24.8% Mongoloid
    1 Sample: 24% Mongoloid
    1 Sample: 23.5% Mongoloid
    3 Sample: 22% Mongoloid
    1 sample: 21% Mongoloid




    -------------


    5.55% are 6% Mongoloid


    1 Sample: 6% Mongoloid


    Chuvash people ( not sure if these ones are pure, someone from the forum said intermarriage with Russians )





    Some Chuvash do look more Mongoloid.



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    I don't agree that every Udmurt can pass for European




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    The Siberian admixture is small in West Finns and Estonians, and largely missing in Veps and Latvians, who descend from Uralic-speaking peoples (Livonian in the case of Latvians). We also know from linguistics that early Uralics had close contacts with proto-Indo-Europeans, of which very few groups today show Siberian admixture. All this would lead me to believe that the original Uralic people were at least mostly Caucasoid, and that the Siberian admixture has come later.

    At least in the case of Finns, it is a fairly accepted theory that the 6% Siberian admixture came from the proto-Saamis, who had in turn picked it up from a Siberian people. Finnish Saami have about 10-15% Siberian admixture.

    Of course, Finnic peoples living close to the Volga urheimat have more Siberian admixture, so the original people may have been close to modern Mordvins.

    This sets Uralics apart from Turks. While Turks descend from a mostly mongoloid population which has been diluted among Caucasoid, the reverse is true for Uralics.

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    The Siberian admixture is small in West Finns and Estonians, and largely missing in Veps and Latvians, who descend from Uralic-speaking peoples (Livonian in the case of Latvians). We also know from linguistics that early Uralics had close contacts with proto-Indo-Europeans, of which very few groups today show Siberian admixture. All this would lead me to believe that the original Uralic people were at least mostly Caucasoid, and that the Siberian admixture has come later.
    Russians claim this what what the original Uralic look like from 6000 BC




    Later Uralic expanded to the western part siberia and mixed with some Dnieper culture

    And in 2000 BC they became predominately Caucasoid with some Mongoloid admixture





    At least in the case of Finns, it is a fairly accepted theory that the 6% Siberian admixture came from the proto-Saamis, who had in turn picked it up from a Siberian people. Finnish Saami have about 10-15% Siberian admixture.

    Of course, Finnic peoples living close to the Volga urheimat have more Siberian admixture, so the original people may have been close to modern Mordvins.

    This sets Uralics apart from Turks. While Turks descend from a mostly mongoloid population which has been diluted among Caucasoid, the reverse is true for Uralics.
    Finns have 6.15% Siberian/Mongoloid admixture on average, another study with 9.3% and with some samples having 12.5% Siberian admixture. The Saami have 6-8% Siberian/Mongoloid admixture with some having from 12% to 16.5%

    In less than 7 generation A Finnish Mongoloid blood can disappear with less than 1%

    1 generation 50%
    2 generation 25%
    3 generation 12.5%
    4 generation 6.25%
    5 generation 3.12%
    6 generation 1.66%
    7 generation 0.75%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurka atla View Post
    Russians claim this what what the original Uralic look like from 6000 BC...
    I dont know what research that is that you are referring to, but according to current theories, Uralics began expanding from their Urheimat in the Volga-Ural region as recently as 4000 BC. The Samoyedic groups were the first to depart, going East.

    Of course, where the proto-Uralics came from, no one knows, because the proto-Uralic language can only be reconstructed to the time of the Volga Urheimat. They might have originated from the East, and in that case were originally mostly Mongoloid, just as Turks (although the proto-Uralic migration is far more ancient). That is just speculation though.

    The Uralic family was very expansive and I doubt that the original Uralics were completly assimilated into the existing populations, given how wide-spread the family is. If the Urheimat-Uralics were mongoloids, I would at least expect a lot more Siberian admixture in Estonians and Latvians. Of the Finnic peoples, only the Saami can be said to have a clear Siberian component (which they have donated to the Finns, in particular the East Finns). Even a Komi or Chuvash-like origin seems a bit unlikely to me, a Mordvin-like origin not being impossible though.

    Even though any kind or origin is of course possible, the most plausible is probably an origin rich in caucasoid the NE-Europe component present in the region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    I dont know what research that is that you are referring to, but according to current theories, Uralics began expanding from their Urheimat in the Volga-Ural region as recently as 4000 BC. The Samoyedic groups were the first to depart, going East.

    Of course, where the proto-Uralics came from, no one knows, because the proto-Uralic language can only be reconstructed to the time of the Volga Urheimat. They might have originated from the East, and in that case were originally mostly Mongoloid, just as Turks (although the proto-Uralic migration is far more ancient). That is just speculation though.

    The Uralic family was very expansive and I doubt that the original Uralics were completly assimilated into the existing populations, given how wide-spread the family is. If the Urheimat-Uralics were mongoloids, I would at least expect a lot more Siberian admixture in Estonians and Latvians. Of the Finnic peoples, only the Saami can be said to have a clear Siberian component (which they have donated to the Finns, in particular the East Finns). Even a Komi or Chuvash-like origin seems a bit unlikely to me, a Mordvin-like origin not being impossible though.

    Even though any kind or origin is of course possible, the most plausible is probably an origin rich in caucasoid the NE-Europe component present in the region.
    I woudn't say that's the current theory if I was you. The Uralic people were associated with the comb culture and the people their were mongoloid and the exact people who inhabit the culture colored in purple are Mongoloid Uralic tribes like Nenets, Khanty and Nenets

    As even wikipedia don't agree
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urheimat#Uralic_homeland





    No you shouldn't expect so much Siberian admixture in Estonians and Latvians because DNA shows they are a mixture of Finns and Slavic people, in fact their mtDNA are exactly the sames as Russians, Ukranians with heavy frequencies of R1a at 32% and haplogroup I 15%

    On the hand Finns are mixture of Saami tribes and people related with haplogroup I which is dominant in northern Europe. While the Saami ancestors were the Uralic from western Siberia who have 16.5 to 35% Mongoloid DNA, and the ancestors of these people are Nenets and they live where the Comb ceramic culture is located today.




    " With regard to the Y-chromosome, the most common haplogroups of the Finns are N1c (58%), I (29%), R1a (7.5%) and R1b (3.5%).[41] Haplogroup N1c, which is found only in a few countries in Europe (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland and Russia), is a subgroup of the haplogroup N (Y-DNA) distributed across northern Eurasia and estimated in a recent study to be 10,000–20,000 years old and suggested to have entered Europe about 12,000–14,000 years ago from Asia.[42]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    The Siberian admixture is small in West Finns and Estonians, and largely missing in Veps and Latvians, who descend from Uralic-speaking peoples (Livonian in the case of Latvians). We also know from linguistics that early Uralics had close contacts with proto-Indo-Europeans, of which very few groups today show Siberian admixture. All this would lead me to believe that the original Uralic people were at least mostly Caucasoid, and that the Siberian admixture has come later.

    At least in the case of Finns, it is a fairly accepted theory that the 6% Siberian admixture came from the proto-Saamis, who had in turn picked it up from a Siberian people. Finnish Saami have about 10-15% Siberian admixture.

    Of course, Finnic peoples living close to the Volga urheimat have more Siberian admixture, so the original people may have been close to modern Mordvins.

    This sets Uralics apart from Turks. While Turks descend from a mostly mongoloid population which has been diluted among Caucasoid, the reverse is true for Uralics.
    I have already posted about the formation of first uralic people, basing me on a Hungarian scientists work: the first uralic tribes seemingly were first of europoid types, mostly 'proto-nordic' and 'cro-magnon' (these last maybe with a tendancy to meso-sub-brachycephaly) with a mixture with siberian people of more or less affirmed mongoloid traits like Sayanians-Toungids people -
    after that proto-Hungarians take more 'Cro-magnoid elements when proto-Voguls, proto-Ostiaks and others got more on the siberian side, but not purely mongoloid- they did not speak to deeply about the Finnic speakers types, more focused on the ugrian ones -
    I agree with you for the most concerning modern shifts -

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurka atla View Post
    I don't agree that every Udmurt can pass for European



    the girl on the central picture as almost nothing of a mongoloid phenotype!
    and I think the first europoids of Paleolithical times have this kind of eyelids, higher in external corners than close the nose BUT WITHOUT THE TRUE MONGOLOID EYELID BRIDLE (it is easy to see yet among some Europeans from Portugal to N-Scandinavia - what I suspect to be the Brünn type would have the same eyelids model, with the inferior eyelid almost rectiligne, what is rarer in southern Europe "old types": but all that is based I reckon, on intuitive conclusions

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    a possible innocent cause of some disaccords here: are we speaking about the first geographially north-siberian types accultured by uralic speakers or about the first speakers of proto-finnic-ugric languages near the Urals??? maybe the so called "uralic" phenotype given by the Russians corresponds to the first case and is correct? but it is not the the most common type of the first "uralic languages" speakers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I have already posted about the formation of first uralic people, basing me on a Hungarian scientists work: the first uralic tribes seemingly were first of europoid types, mostly 'proto-nordic' and 'cro-magnon' (these last maybe with a tendancy to meso-sub-brachycephaly) with a mixture with siberian people of more or less affirmed mongoloid traits like Sayanians-Toungids people -
    after that proto-Hungarians take more 'Cro-magnoid elements when proto-Voguls, proto-Ostiaks and others got more on the siberian side, but not purely mongoloid- they did not speak to deeply about the Finnic speakers types, more focused on the ugrian ones -
    I agree with you for the most concerning modern shifts -
    I can't find your quote of a Hungarian from anywhere while my source comes from Russian anthrolologist. The Uralic expansion to Europe may have been mostly Proto-European with some Mongoloid admixture but the original Uralic were Mongoloid

    Oldest Proto-Uralic by Russian anthropologist from 6000 BC



    ( Russian translation to English)


    FACE OF ANTHROPOLOGY

    There has been an act of invasion of the Finno-Ugric peoples of Eastern origin in the territory inhabited by Caucasians. Dnieper-Donets culture has developed Caucasians, after which it mingled with the Finno-Ugric tribes. This is confirmed by the data from the repository and Yasinovatka, which (like the Vasiljevka II) is the most ancient among the other cemeteries of the Dnieper-Donets culture. Moreover, it contains the burial of non-simultaneity and divide the period of 500 years (between A and B).


    Since culture comb-ceramic spread anthropological type, bearing the features of a "relaxed Mongoloid." In the anthropological literature, it is named laponoidnogo. From the point of view of anthropologists, "there is every reason to believe that the origin of anthropological traits media cultures comb-ceramics associated with the eastern parts of Russia." In particular, male and female skulls from graves 19 and 20 (Sahtysh II), belonging to the comb-culture and dating con. 4th - early. 3rd millennium BC. e. have pronounced Mongoloid appearance - "brain structure of the skull, face and horizontal profile morphology of the nose in two sahtyshskih skulls undoubtedly confirm their membership of the Mongoloid race.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    the girl on the central picture as almost nothing of a mongoloid phenotype!
    and I think the first europoids of Paleolithical times have this kind of eyelids, higher in external corners than close the nose BUT WITHOUT THE TRUE MONGOLOID EYELID BRIDLE (it is easy to see yet among some Europeans from Portugal to N-Scandinavia - what I suspect to be the Brünn type would have the same eyelids model, with the inferior eyelid almost rectiligne, what is rarer in southern Europe "old types": but all that is based I reckon, on intuitive conclusions
    The first europoids actually had much larger eyes than modern day human, their noses was also much more prominent and physically larger.

    If that face isn't influenced by Mongoloid than I don't know what is. Even this 1/4 Korean girl looks far more whiter than her.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurka atla View Post
    The first europoids actually had much larger eyes than modern day human, their noses was also much more prominent and physically larger.
    These are Neanderthal's traits. Ancient Europeans (Otzi) carried much more of Neanderthal genome than modern do.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurka atla View Post
    I can't find your quote of a Hungarian from anywhere while my source comes from Russian anthrolologist. The Uralic expansion to Europe may have been mostly Proto-European with some Mongoloid admixture but the original Uralic were Mongoloid

    Oldest Proto-Uralic by Russian anthropologist from 6000 BC






    ( Russian translation to English)


    FACE OF ANTHROPOLOGY

    There has been an act of invasion of the Finno-Ugric peoples of Eastern origin in the territory inhabited by Caucasians. Dnieper-Donets culture has developed Caucasians, after which it mingled with the Finno-Ugric tribes. This is confirmed by the data from the repository and Yasinovatka, which (like the Vasiljevka II) is the most ancient among the other cemeteries of the Dnieper-Donets culture. Moreover, it contains the burial of non-simultaneity and divide the period of 500 years (between A and B).


    Since culture comb-ceramic spread anthropological type, bearing the features of a "relaxed Mongoloid." In the anthropological literature, it is named laponoidnogo. From the point of view of anthropologists, "there is every reason to believe that the origin of anthropological traits media cultures comb-ceramics associated with the eastern parts of Russia." In particular, male and female skulls from graves 19 and 20 (Sahtysh II), belonging to the comb-culture and dating con. 4th - early. 3rd millennium BC. e. have pronounced Mongoloid appearance - "brain structure of the skull, face and horizontal profile morphology of the nose in two sahtyshskih skulls undoubtedly confirm their membership of the Mongoloid race.
    read what I wrote: WHAT IS URALIC PEOPLE for these russian scientists??? here is the problem!
    geographic dwelling ones or so called uralic (more correctly 'finno-ugrian') languages speakers: I repaet: here is the problem and misundertsanding will perdure a lot of time!!!

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurka atla View Post
    The first europoids actually had much larger eyes than modern day human, their noses was also much more prominent and physically larger.

    If that face isn't influenced by Mongoloid than I don't know what is. Even this 1/4 Korean girl looks far more whiter than her.

    what is 'mongoloid' typical traits for you???
    her nose is not mongoloid, her apparent cheekbones can be found in some europoid subtype (she is smiling: modifying effect), her eyes are half closed by smiling: at first sight (and I'm interested by phenotypes since a lot of time) I can't see any mongoloid trait in her - maybe, if we had a better pictures or more than a side of picture we could decide?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    read what I wrote: WHAT IS URALIC PEOPLE for these russian scientists??? here is the problem!
    geographic dwelling ones or so called uralic (more correctly 'finno-ugrian') languages speakers: I repaet: here is the problem and misundertsanding will perdure a lot of time!!!
    ( Russian translation to English )

    Ural race (western siberia )

    Ural race - a race , which occupies an intermediate position between the Caucasoid and Mongoloid races. Characterized by straight dark hair, average development of tertiary hair , moderate pigmentation of the skin, predominantly brown eyes, sometimes flattened face , strongly developed fold of the upper eyelid , narrow , moderately prominent nose with a concave back . Distributed in the Urals (Bashkiria ) and West Siberia ( Khanty, Mansi, northern Altai and Khakassia , some groups [1].

    West Siberian Ural race


    Recently, for the trans-Ural race options instead of the concept of " Ural race," suggested the concept of " West Siberian race" [ 12]. In this case, the Western Ural race options are Caucasoid race , but as part of the West Siberian race remains a population with slightly more Mongoloid appearance, common among the Khanty , Mansi , Narym Selkup Tomsk Tatars and Chulyms [ 13]. West Siberian race consists of two physical types - Urals and the Ob - Irtysh [ 14].

    Urals type are Uralic with the Mongoloid/Caucasoid look

    Ob Irtysh are Uralic people were Caucasoid appearance with slight Mongoloid influence, this is the most dominant type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    what is 'mongoloid' typical traits for you???
    her nose is not mongoloid, her apparent cheekbones can be found in some europoid subtype (she is smiling: modifying effect), her eyes are half closed by smiling: at first sight (and I'm interested by phenotypes since a lot of time) I can't see any mongoloid trait in her - maybe, if we had a better pictures or more than a side of picture we could decide?
    Her eyes is very small and slanty, not typical of Europeans. Her nose and cheekbones are Europoid subtype but those traits can be found in nearly 50% of Europoid/Mongoloid hybrid aswell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurka atla View Post
    The first europoids actually had much larger eyes than modern day human, their noses was also much more prominent and physically larger.

    If that face isn't influenced by Mongoloid than I don't know what is. Even this 1/4 Korean girl looks far more whiter than her.

    much larger eyes than this girl in the picture and you will become an alien. It's not the size but their is indeed something small Asian about the shape of her eyes. Maybe this might change when she is older He nose and Check bones are also Caucasian. Also Caucasian does not mean huge noses, compared to on average broader and flatter East Asian or Sub Saharan African noses (this is not meant to be a assessment of their looks) almost all Caucasian noses appear prominent.

    Take into account that she is children, and children have generally less prominent features.

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    Using pictures of children is really misleading and sly. Children have infantile facial features similar to Mongoloid ones (like wide-set eyes, low nose bridge, etc). Always use adult pictures when comparing different ethnic/racial groups, it will lead to less confusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurka atla View Post
    I woudn't say that's the current theory if I was you. The Uralic people were associated with the comb culture and the people their were mongoloid and the exact people who inhabit the culture colored in purple are Mongoloid Uralic tribes like Nenets, Khanty and Nenets
    The comb-ceramic culture is today considered to have arrived in Europe before Uralic languages. We dont know what language or genes the bearers of the culture had, but it would be a huge coincidence if it was just one language and one gene profile. Archeological cultures cannot be seen as proof of any race or language.

    And by the way, the people in purple on the map most certainly are not all mongoloid, it covers Finland, the Baltic states and Northern Russia as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurka atla View Post
    No you shouldn't expect so much Siberian admixture in Estonians and Latvians because DNA shows they are a mixture of Finns and Slavic people, in fact their mtDNA are exactly the sames as Russians, Ukranians with heavy frequencies of R1a at 32% and haplogroup I 15%
    You dont consider it odd that the presumed Siberian admixture has disappeared from so many Uralic speakers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurka atla View Post
    Sure it does. That article is poorly sourced, but it still gets it right. The Urheimat is in the Volga-Ural region, where for example Mordvin and Mari people live today. Those people only have minor Siberian admixture.

    Speaking of Wikipedia, the Swedish article has featured article status, and goes through the commonly accepted theories on Uralic origins. The Samoyedic people are seen as the first to leave the Urheimat, going East. Commonly Ugric (Khanty and Mansi) are then considered to have left East, but some claim that it was Finnic-Permic who left the Urheimat first. I see no reason not to trust academics here. http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uraliska_spr%C3%A5k

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurka atla View Post
    On the hand Finns are mixture of Saami tribes and people related with haplogroup I which is dominant in northern Europe. While the Saami ancestors were the Uralic from western Siberia who have 16.5 to 35% Mongoloid DNA, and the ancestors of these people are Nenets and they live where the Comb ceramic culture is located today.
    Not entirely true. Linguistic evidence shows that Finns and Saami were one people living in proximity to the Baltic-speaking peoples. Saami were thus not a Samoyedic people, and if you want to claim that, I think you are pretty alone with your theory. As they migrated north by a more Eastern route than the Finns, they picked up genes from a Siberian people now gone. They then donated these genes in turn to the Finns.

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