English was not imported by the Anglo-Saxons

DejaVu

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This is how the events of the 5th century AD and the origin of the English language are declared in every history book, in every schoolbook, worldwide :
The Anglo-Saxons imported the English language in the 5th century into Britain. The Anglo-Saxons were initially invited as mercenaries. When their wages could not be paid, they rebelled and took over the east of Britain. The Britons reacted by fighting bravely, but their efforts were hampered by treachery and unlawful collaboration with the enemy by some of their most high ranking members. Eventually the Anglo-Saxons managed to subdue the eastern population. They imposed their culture and language. A major part of the population fled west where the British resistance proved to be successful for a while.

So much for the official story.

But official history has several major inconsistencies:

1)
Strangely enough, no contemporary source mentions a language change.
2)
English should have far more words of Welsh origin. Why can we not explain many place-names east of the Pennines in Welsh (e.g. London) nor in Latin? Why was there no similar language change on the continent after the collapse of the Roman Empire?
3)
How could a very limited number of Anglo-Saxons conquer most of England? Is it true that the British were cowards as Gildas wrote in the 6th century?
4)
Did the Anglo-Saxons wipe out the eastern population in Britain? Or was the entire population chased to Wales? How were the Anglo-Saxons able to replace 2.5 million eastern Britons?
5)
Did east-England change its language twice within approx.1000 years? [1] Why was the alleged language transition so record-breakingly swift?

Professor Simon James (University of Leicester) reminds us that the theory of the introduction of English was established in the 17th century under James I to suit the political needs of the time. The union of the crowns of Scotland and England was explained as re-union of (Celtic) Britain. State paid historians stated that Britain was ‘Celtic’ before the Roman age. This implied the existence of a Celtic language [2] all over Britain. The theory was used to quieten the critics who were against unification. The latter argued that the Scots always had been the eternal enemies of the English.

The English language was explained as an 'unfortunate and imported accident'.


Let there be no doubt: there is no historical proof whatsoever that the Anglo-Saxons imported English. We will also challenge the very existence of Celts as a distinct people with a distinct language, but not the existence of a Celtic culture.

We discovered a seriously faulty circular reasoning that is used by modern historians who are specialized in Celtic language, history and culture. We will combat that.




Stating that (proto) English was there all the time not only explains much better what happened during the 5th century, plus later events, and the modern situation, it also can predict a number of facts. Assuming 2 languages in Britain, the 5th century puzzle can be solved and the modern situation makes far more sense.

http://www.proto-english.org/

 
I've actually had a brief email discussion with Michael Goormachtigh before. Although I brought up some counterarguments to the "inconsistencies" on proto-english.org, I mainly contacted him to suggest that they get their genetics section more up-to-date. Right now it relies entirely on Oppenheimer, whose conclusions about British Y-DNA are now recognized as being wildly inaccurate. Mr. Goormachtigh responded:

Michael Goormachtigh said:
In fact, you are right: we relay too much on Oppenheimer, although that is just one (lesser) part of our arguments. We omitted to mention that for instance we have little faith in Foster's research. But we found other arguments and facts. Not all is in the website.

I actually think that the possibility they bring up is fascinating, but I'm far from convinced that Germanic language was spoken widely in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons. As for the "inconsistencies," my responses are:

proto-english.org said:
1) Strangely enough, no contemporary source mentions a language change.

Similarly, no sources reproduce proto-English in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons. So lack of sources is a problem for either position, and perhaps worse for their position, since we do have place-name evidence working against their position.

proto-english.org said:
2) English should have far more words of Welsh origin. Why can we not explain many place-names east of the Pennines in Welsh (e.g. London) nor in Latin? Why was there no similar language change on the continent after the collapse of the Roman Empire?

There was similar language change in places like Switzerland. I don't get this line of argument. Where's the Celtic substratum in Swiss German? There are several examples of similar patterns to what we believe happened in England with the Anglo-Saxons, particularly when it involves Germanic peoples during the Migration Period who kept speaking their native tongue.

proto-english.org said:
3) How could a very limited number of Anglo-Saxons conquer most of England? Is it true that the British were cowards as Gildas wrote in the 6th century?

The obvious answer is fragmentation. When the Anglo-Saxons began pouring into Britain, the British were divided into numerous petty kingdoms at war with one another. In addition, their economy collapsed utterly, especially in the southeast, where the Anglo-Saxons made first contact. Also, it's important to not underestimate how many Anglo-Saxons were displaced at the time, thanks largely to the marine transgression happening to their homeland.

proto-english.org said:
4) Did the Anglo-Saxons wipe out the eastern population in Britain? Or was the entire population chased to Wales? How were the Anglo-Saxons able to replace 2.5 million eastern Britons?

They displaced and assimilated them. Genetics seem to indicate that the resulting population of Anglo-Saxons with absorbed British Celts has something like a 1:1 balance of the two groups in the more Anglo-Saxon areas. Again, though, we have continental examples, like in Switzerland, where there was less genetic displacement despite total language displacement. So this isn't an inconsistency anyway.

proto-english.org said:
5) Did east-England change its language twice within approx.1000 years? [1] Why was the alleged language transition so record-breakingly swift?

The first of these transformations was theoretically Q-Celtic to P-Celtic, which doesn't need to have been a total displacement, only a natural process based on continental influence. The second, replacing Brythonic with Anglo-Saxon language, doesn't seem "record-breakingly swift," it only seems to be a natural consequence of conquerors importing and imposing their language.
 
I wanted to reply to the OP, but Sparkey already explained everything I wanted to mention eloquently.
 
I agree entirely with Maciamo and Sparkey (it's true they gave me some cash gifts) in their interpretation- I 'm a bit tired by all these new 'scooplike' theories: official History rarely imagine facts, it rather interpretes them in more or less erroneous ways for political reasons varying according to time and power linked to this time - but science has also its "fashions"...
I estimated the male weight of Germanics people to over 50% in extreme Eastern England spite the long time of populational 'osmose' until today ... even if we eliminate a possible 10-15% of Vikings blood, the question of number of Anglo-Saxons-Frisons-Jutes is a "NO-QUESTION"! I remember the Oppenheimer 's analysis gave me a jump in my blood pressure! (I had also some problems with the Bryan Sykes interpretations!) - the explanations given just above are sensible.
linguistically I do not see what could put english languages and dialects in a special drawer in front of other continental germanic dialects... (scot phonetic , especially for vowels, is close enough to north Germany dialects )
 
"there has always been an England..." :LOL:

I agree with Sparkey on the genetics part: they seem to rely heavily (I would have argued 'exclusively' if it wasn't for that quote form Sparkey) on "Origins of the British" by Stephen Oppenheimer, which is badly dated (from 2006) and wildly inaccurate at this point. I could go on talking about the plethora of linguistic problems they have, but I think it doesn't make sense to argue any further if the foregone assumption (genetic continuity implies extreme linguistic continuity) is just false to begin with.
 
"there has always been an England..." :LOL:

I agree with Sparkey on the genetics part: they seem to rely heavily (I would have argued 'exclusively' if it wasn't for that quote form Sparkey) on "Origins of the British" by Stephen Oppenheimer, which is badly dated (from 2006) and wildly inaccurate at this point. I could go on talking about the plethora of linguistic problems they have, but I think it doesn't make sense to argue any further if the foregone assumption (genetic continuity implies extreme linguistic continuity) is just false to begin with.

agreed
I too discuss the genetic ground of the theory
it is true that a minority (by number) language can win ground over a majority (look at France)
but i did not understand why a same population without any minimal demic introgression of any importance from outside could get divided in two very different languages, with a sea barrier making them a partial isolate (even if sea is not always a true barrier) -
and why if being living pacefully for centuries and side by side two populations fall brutally in a deadly war one against the other? an economic desequilibrium?
I do not exclude the presence of a small germanic tribe in britain before the discussed historic invasions but...
 
I don't think these guys pulled off the argument.
Here's why:
Tacitus tells us a little about the landscape of the island of Britain through the eyes of his father in law, Agricola.
The British people were decidedly Celtic in their customs, beliefs and personal names. Within the historical period we also know about the last days of the Roman empire in Britain who were fond of employing peoples such as the Anglos and Saxons, and specifically them, in the Roman military.
We imagine the Anglos were simply roaring belligerents with swords drawn. To the contrary, a number of them had probably served in the Roman military or had fought the Roman military. On top of having the tactical acumen and strategic sense brought through actual experience in war, something the Brits did not have at that time, they were also in the early part of the maritime raiding revolution in the North Sea. Shallow amphibious landings are something the islands had never experienced and had no defense. If it is true that the British governors hired Saxon mercenaries to defend the post-Roman Britain from tribal raiding, then the Anglo-Saxons also had surveyed the country, mapped it and noted every soft spot.
We also know that an even smaller army, the Normans, almost permanently changed the language of Britain within less than a number of decades. Read Chaucer who wrote only a little more than two hundred years after doomsday.
I think a case can be made for early 'Germanic' influences in the North of the island, but I don't these guys made the case.
 
I agree for the most with Tabaccus Maximus(a Roman who overlived the centuries?)
but concerning language, the first Normans (viking-gallo-romans) did not impose a romance language in the Isles: I suppose "french" language lived side by side with anglo-saxon a long time BEFORE OSMOSE and I think the kind of french which feed the most modern english is more the "son" of the angevin romance (palatization, and a result of Plantagenets domination) than "son" of the so called anglo-norman (no palatization?)- this west-France 'angevinic' stayed a long time among the upper classes before pass into the basic people language? I confess I lack proofs concerning the transitional period and I base myself upon modern english
 
have you some Chaucer texts to submit us (even if short?) - is it his "frenglish" which is interesting or what he said? ( i'm ignorant!) - and was the Chaucer's language the language of majority of folks in Brittain? when we see how long remained celtic languages too...
 

thanks
but as all these short films, it is very little informative (a lot of them are even not to reliable )
concerning my last post: "palatized" >> "palatalized" would be better, would not it?
 
Stating that (proto) English was there all the time not only explains much better what happened during the 5th century, plus later events, and the modern situation, it also can predict a number of facts.
Jesus, how embarrassingly amateurish view! I hope there are no serious linguists participating in that crap...
There is absolutely no chance that any "Proto-English" dwelled in Britain before the Christian Era, because English is an indisputable daughter language of Northwest-Germanic dialect, which can be dated via the early Runic texts and some attestations in the Roman scripts.

Just another bunch of pseudo-scientists who have not heard that archaeological or genetic continuity cannot tell anything about the linguistic continuity.
 
They even try to deny that Germanic was born in Scandinavia, although its oldest contacts are with Finnic and Saami, not Celtic, Baltic or any other more southern branch. There are a continuum of loanword layers from Germanic lineage to West Uralic and later Finnic and Saami: Northwest Indo-European, Pre-Germanic, Palaeo-Germanic, Early Proto-Germanic, Late Proto-Germanic, Northwest Germanic, Early and Late Proto-Scandinavian.

Find "The Nordic Languages" 2002, part 1, chapter 67 by Koivulehto. (In Google Books.)
 
The Anglo-Saxon men of R1b u106 are responsible for spreading Anglo-Saxon tongues to England, this is what explains the affinities between englishmand German.
 
And at what point did Anglo-Saxons started speaking old German (or Proto-Germanic)?
 
I do not know. Nevertheless, English is a Germanic tongue, we all know about the angles, Saxons and Jutes from continental Europe and their migrations to England. The "missing link" is probably R1b R-S21, an influx of the Germanic tribes from holland/Germany/Denmark towards England.
 
have you some Chaucer texts to submit us (even if short?) - is it his "frenglish" which is interesting or what he said? ( i'm ignorant!) - and was the Chaucer's language the language of majority of folks in Brittain? when we see how long remained celtic languages too...

Let me correct myself. You are correct in that the Normans didn't forcefully impose French. At least I am not aware of that being the case, although it may have been highly desirable for the those dealing with the upper class or the church. It's a little of topic but reading through Chaucer's 'Cantebury Tales' it is interesting to see early modern English is such as raw and recognizable state. Anglo-Saxon isn't recognizable to someone who has not studied it. Chaucer's English looks like chocolate and milk that has been stirred yet.
 
1. The illustrator of that short cartoon linked by Edao really crammed a lot of nuggets into his drawings-- thank you for that. 2. Tabaccus, I may have to borrow your line about Chaucer's English looking like unstirred chocolate milk. Great observation. Luckily, over the years a few authors have taken this once clunky language/cultural chocolaty concoction and whipped it into the frothiest mammalian juice you would ever try to read... ie. James Joyce. 3. Adamo, your haplogroup approach to recent history probably isn't the best road to travel. You're gonna run up against a few boulders along the way... but it's your journey.
 
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Let me correct myself. You are correct in that the Normans didn't forcefully impose French. At least I am not aware of that being the case, although it may have been highly desirable for the those dealing with the upper class or the church. It's a little of topic but reading through Chaucer's 'Cantebury Tales' it is interesting to see early modern English is such as raw and recognizable state. Anglo-Saxon isn't recognizable to someone who has not studied it. Chaucer's English looks like chocolate and milk that has been stirred yet.

I managed to read a short bit of text written by Chaucer (14°-15° century): it is middle english and not old english, so it is full of french words; it is sure that old english contained a lot of germanic words which faded out later - and the phonetic forms evolved too between these two stages of language - for the remnant, I find the anglo-saxon quality of old english and its links with continental other germanic languages (frisian and others) is too evident to be challenged by any magic new theory... (rubbish)
concerning placenames, we know the little (farms, crossroads, fields etc...) places are regularly renamed by the new colonizators, so the lack of celtic places names in eastern England is not surprising to me - but I suppose it is not the case for big towns (very often old places occupied by more than an ethny, because well situated) we could find among them old celtic and roman names respelled later by the Anglo-Saxons, and pronounced in a different way?
by the way, the same phenomenon occurred in breton (and cornish) between the 9°/10°C. and the 16° C....
 
sometimes, even for a big place, the name was changed 100% so...
 

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