New migration map of haplogroup R1b

[Tone]

We should except R1b to be in 4,600 year old central Germany Y DNA samples. That is exactly the place and time Germanic Italo Celts started to conquer. When we say Bell Beaker culture we are going off of what Archaeologist since the 1800's have said even though there where new Indo European culture that formed by conquering and mixing with Bell Beaker like Unetice.

I agree with you that Unetice was a warrior culture and was almost definitely the forebearer to Germanic/Celtic/Italic. They probably spoke an Indo-European language and when finally tested they will most likely be largely R1B.


However, the 4600 year old German sample was from the Bell Beaker Culture, not Unetice. And it was R1B. That's just the fact of the matter. You could dismiss this R1B as being from the future Unetice warriors who were in the midst of conquering the Bell-Beakers, but I think you might be bending the facts to fit your theory.


Until other evidence is found, the theory has to be that Unetice culture replace an r1b Bell Beaker culture in central Europe. I believe Unetice culture was a hybrid between Bell Beaker and Corded Ware. Unetice probably was predominantly r1b but had the culture of and language of Corded Ware. But that's just a theory and I don't claim to be right.

wait so ur saying they have 5,000 year old R1a from the steppes i have not heard of that all i know is they have 6 y dna samples that are 6,000 and 5,000 years old from indo european yamna culture kurgens but have not realsed the results yet.

I'm sorry I probably have my dates wrong. I thought they extracted r1a from Kurgan mounds.

they did not test the r1b for R1b L51 or L11 so we dont know but it almost deifntley had one of those two. When my dad took a anctry.c om dna test they said he had R1b because they did not test him for subclades then he took a genographic test they say he has r1b l11/p310 but he defintley has sometype of subclade.

Okay. I understand. Thanks.

 

[Fire Haired]

I agree with you that Unetice was a warrior culture and was almost definitely the forebearer to Germanic/Celtic/Italic. They probably spoke an Indo-European language and when finally tested they will most likely be largely R1B.


However, the 4600 year old German sample was from the Bell Beaker Culture, not Unetice. And it was R1B. That's just the fact of the matter. You could dismiss this R1B as being from the future Unetice warriors who were in the midst of conquering the Bell-Beakers, but I think you might be bending the facts to fit your theory.


Until other evidence is found, the theory has to be that Unetice culture replace an r1b Bell Beaker culture in central Europe. I believe Unetice culture was a hybrid between Bell Beaker and Corded Ware. Unetice probably was predominantly r1b but had the culture of and language of Corded Ware. But that's just a theory and I don't claim to be right.

i used to think the eact same think like a few months ago. i assumed the bell eaker R1b came from Corded ware there is really no DNA evidence of that R1b seems to have spread from the Balkens or Poland but defintley not from Corded ware culture.

Corded ware almost defintley spoke proto Balto Slavic they also expanded to Scandinavia which explains Scandinavian R1a Z284 a brother to Balto Slavic R1a. Germanic Italo Celts come from a different source i think archilogist need to look for indo european signs in Bell Beaker around 4,500-5,000ybp it would have been there i think and the R1b from 4,600 year old remains in my opinion proves the Germanic italo Celtic conquers had arrived.

It was Italo Celtic that came from Unetice Germanic languages would have probably started in northern Germany but the first culture they started was Nordic bronze age 4,000ybp. Germanic languages spread from northern Germany and south Scandinavia mainly just 2,500-2,000ybp.

that is the long held theory but i kind of dis agree 3,000 year old R1b from Germany i tested its haplotype it almost for sure had Germanic R1b S21. so some Urnfield people in Germany 4,000-3,000ybp spoke a related language to German or they spoke the ancestral language to all non Scandinavian German languages. Also there is no Y DNA evidence of a recent migration from south Scandinavia too the rest of Europe almost all Scandinavian I1 is I1a2 and almost all non Scandinavian I1 is I1a1,I1a3, and I1a4. So that makes me think there was never a major Scandinavian German migration maybe a migration from north Germany.

I'm sorry I probably have my dates wrong. I thought they extracted r1a from Kurgan mounds.

well all indo Iranian kurgen mounds in central asia Y DNA tested had R1a1a dating as old as 4,000ybp and as early as 1,600ybp. These Indo iraniens where most related to sythiens they had mostly light hair and eyes with some red hair. So they where not Indus valley and the ancient perians just want to make that clear. i know the name Indo Iranian sounds like they came from iran or india these ones did not.

also two corded ware culture R1a samples from 4,600ybp i think came from kurgen burails but we do know corded ware had kurgens. The 6 y dna samples from 6,000 and 5,000 ybp in Russian yamna culture most likely had R1a1a1b. The father of Balto Slavic Corded ware R1a1a1b1 and Indo Iranian Sinishta R1a1a1b2. Yamna was the father of Indo Iranian and Balto Slavic cultures. So they also most likely had Indo Iranian and Balto Slavic's R1a father.

 

[nordicwarrior]

...Also there is no Y DNA evidence of a recent migration from south Scandinavia too the rest of Europe almost all Scandinavian I1 is I1a2 and almost all non Scandinavian I1 is I1a1,I1a3, and I1a4. So that makes me think there was never a major Scandinavian German migration maybe a migration from north Germany...

F.H. I can see your point about the link between R1b and red-hair. But regarding I1 clades... you have these branches divided up into precise geographical areas. If you reference the latest maps on FTDNA this simply isn't the case. Please check out M253, L22, and P30. The real spreads are much greater than you're allowing for in your argument.

 

[Fire Haired]

F.H. I can see your point about the link between R1b and red-hair. But regarding I1 clades... you have these branches divided up into precise geographical areas. If you reference the latest maps on FTDNA this simply isn't the case. Please check out M253, L22, and P130. The real spreads are much greater than you're allowing for in your argument.

ur right on that i do exaggerate the differnt I1 subclades and where they are found. But i dont think it changes the fact that I1 in non Scandinavian Europe is mainly diff subclades than in Scandinavia and probably does not come from Germanic migrations out of south Scandinavia but maybe Germany. Also that since German I1 subclades are mainly different from Scandinavian I1 subclades that German I1 and Scandinavian I1 comes from a pre Germanic language source. Also that I1 was alrady popular in non Scandinavian parts of Europe before Germanic languages maybe morepopular than today.

 

[nordicwarrior]

...Also that I1 was alrady popular in non Scandinavian parts of Europe before Germanic languages maybe morepopular than today.

Wouldn't that go without saying? I mean I1 clades would have had to have walked and/or boated northward at some point and being that no other major paternal hg's were around it would only make sense their numbers would be highest. Remember the bottle-necks associated with I1 clades and then plug in my hide-out theory. Kind of makes sense, no?

 

[zanipolo]

Wouldn't that go without saying? I mean I1 clades would have had to have walked and/or boated northward at some point and being that no other major paternal hg's were around it would only make sense their numbers would be highest. Remember the bottle-necks associated with I1 clades and then plug in my hide-out theory. Kind of makes sense, no?

you know that crossing from the south baltic sea lands to southern sweden or gotland in less distance that the crossing of the Aegean sea.

If phoenicians could sail from the levant to northern-west france, that spit of water called the Baltic is nothing

 

[zanipolo]

I made my first R1b migration map over four years ago. Little has changed since then in the way I see the history of R1b people. What changed are the names of subclades and the new branches of S116/P312, like DF19, DF27 and L238, or the recent discovery of the Indo-European Z2103 branch in the Middle East.

With this new map I have tried to show the geographical extent of each subclade before the evolution of its own subclades.

The map stops in the Late Bronze Age, around 1200-1000 BCE. It would have been too complex to show Iron Age migrations, like the Hallstatt-La Tène expansion or Germanic migrations.


Click to enlarge

Note that I have also revised the text in the R1b History section, updated the phylogenetic tree, and added new famous members of R1b.

Why are most of your maps have a void of the Dalmatian coast, like some kind of plagued area?

 

[Maciamo]

Why are most of your maps have a void of the Dalmatian coast, like some kind of plagued area?

Most of my maps ? I only made two migration maps, for R1a and R1b. As I said before, I cannot invent data. My maps are based on archeological records of Indo-European cultures. There is no trace of them in Dalmatia before 1000 BCE (actually that's about the time when the Illyrians could have started migrating to Dalmatia, but it's rather fuzzy). That also explains why R1b is so low in Dalmatia, esp. in Bosnia.

Most R1a came to Dalmatia with the Slavic migrations, approx. 1500 years after when my maps end.

 

[Fire Haired]

Maciamo

Since R1b M269 was born in the pontic steppe that means it is European. and that all Indo European R1b is decended from the Pontic caspien steppe just like Indo European R1a. Also isnt R1b M269 from like over 10,000ybp so that would mean there was not a bronze age migration from the mid east to the steppes. also that Indo European languages most likely originated in the steppes not the caucus with ancestral culture to maykop.

So there was no Bronze age or Neloithic R1b migration from the mid east to the steppes. was it more like a Paloithic migrations that did not bring Indo European languages. Also it seems u say that possibly Hittite R1b L584 decends from south east European R1b L150 and brother to Germanic Italo Celtic R1b L11/P310. Which could mean their languages are realted in some way.

Also that southeast Europe faced a huge Indo European R1b M269 migration from Ukraine about 6,000ybp. Is there any evidence of a Indo European culture in that area at that time that migrated to Germany and Antolia. Also that R1b M269 subclades evolved in southeast europe mainly bulgaira for 2,000 years so there has to be signs of a indo european culture there.

I know it seems there is a high connection with Germanic Italo Celtic R1b and red hair possibly since they stayed in Bulgaria according to your map for 2,000 years. That is why the Thracen and Dacen Indo European in Bulgaira where known for red hair it was mentioned in Greek writting as old as 2,900ybp. i wonder if any red hair in antolia is some hwo connected with hittites. also possibly u where right all indo european r1b has connections with red hair which could expalin R1b M73 in indo iraniens and that they where known for red hair.

but connecting all Indo European r1b to red hair seems way to simple to be true. Why are there no redheads in bulgaria today or at least a very very small amount even though the Thracens and Daciens where known for it. does this mean there was some type of population replacement in Bulgaria.

also isnt the Armenian language the oldest branch if the indo european language. and since they have u placed R1b1a the ancester to all Indo European R1b in Armenia could that mean R1b is really the source of Indo European languages.

 

[Fire Haired]

Wouldn't that go without saying? I mean I1 clades would have had to walked and/or boated northward at some point and being that no other major groups were around it would only make sense their numbers would be highest. Remember the bottle-necks associated with I1 clades and then plug in my hide-out theory. Kind of makes sense, no?

I guess the bottleneck I1 subclades supports they where small isolated groups that stemmed from the same source like European jews who show alot of Y DNA bottlenecks. It could have happened before Indo European invasion. I dont think I1a2 which is spread out in all of Scandinavia is from I1a going by boat running away from hg R1 or hg G2a. It was probably a migration that came 11,000ybp from Germany when Scandinavia became livable.

hg I defintley had to retreat at times but i think they where just conquered and mixed with other y dna. also hg I has subclades so to say no major groups around them u must mean no none I1a2 in scandnavia around them or no none I2a1b in eastern europe.

It seems like I2a1a and I2a1b in the western Mediterranean and eastern Europe spread from a south European ice age refuge about 20,000-15,000ybp. Possibly I2a2 which is centered in central Europe may have also spread from a southern European ice age refuge. I1 seems to be most popular in Scandnavia and central Europe Scandnavia is mainly I1a2 and central Europe is mainly I1a1, I1a3, I1a4, and I1b. I1a probably migrated from central europe to Scandinavia 11,000ybp. but alot stayed and it was probably the main Y DNA haplogroup of pre Indo European central Europeans. I1 may have started in cenatral europe and evolved out of I1* that also came from a south European refuge

I would like to see a y DNA I migration map from Maciamo like he makes R1a and R1b migration maps. I think most spread across Europe after the last ice age. but the I1 being only 5,000 years old just does not make any sense it would be complicated.

 

[zanipolo]

Most of my maps ? I only made two migration maps, for R1a and R1b. As I said before, I cannot invent data. My maps are based on archeological records of Indo-European cultures. There is no trace of them in Dalmatia before 1000 BCE (actually that's about the time when the Illyrians could have started migrating to Dalmatia, but it's rather fuzzy). That also explains why R1b is so low in Dalmatia, esp. in Bosnia.

Most R1a came to Dalmatia with the Slavic migrations, approx. 1500 years after when my maps end.

I seen plenty of maps with this void...maybe not all your maps , but plenty of maps.

If I2a is so strong in Dalmatia now and it came from Ukraine where KenN states, then surely what was occupying ( Hgs) this void area in your maps? ..........G2 or R1b, or

 

[Maciamo]

I seen plenty of maps with this void...maybe not all your maps , but plenty of maps.

If I2a is so strong in Dalmatia now and it came from Ukraine where KenN states, then surely what was occupying ( Hgs) this void area in your maps? ..........G2 or R1b, or

I don't understand your question. You talk about maps but seem to mix Bronze Age migration maps with modern distribution maps. Are you trying to ask what haplogroup was present in Dalmatia before the Slavic migrations brought I2a1b and R1a ? If that is your question, then the answer is also I2a1b (but not the Carpathian variety), and probably G2a, E1b1b, J and T. But I didn't make maps showing ancient frequencies.

 

[Maciamo]

Since R1b M269 was born in the pontic steppe that means it is European. and that all Indo European R1b is decended from the Pontic caspien steppe just like Indo European R1a. Also isnt R1b M269 from like over 10,000ybp so that would mean there was not a bronze age migration from the mid east to the steppes. also that Indo European languages most likely originated in the steppes not the caucus with ancestral culture to maykop.

I never said that M269 "was born in the Pontic Steppe". It spread from the Pontic Steppe. That is very different. M269 surely originated in the Middle East. Let me use this analogy. A lit of modern Americans belong to R1b-U106. A lot of these R1b-U106 lineages came from Britain, but it didn't originate there. It came to Britain with the Anglo-Saxons and the Vikings. And before that R1b-U106 came from Central Europe, and probably from the steppes. We cannot know for sure where the mutation first appeared. With STR we can only vaguely estimate when the most recent common ancestor of the lineages surviving to this day lived. But what if a lot of side branches of that lineage died out a long time ago ? The very first ancestor carrying that mutation could be much much older.

Also that southeast Europe faced a huge Indo European R1b M269 migration from Ukraine about 6,000ybp. Is there any evidence of a Indo European culture in that area at that time that migrated to Germany and Antolia. Also that R1b M269 subclades evolved in southeast europe mainly bulgaira for 2,000 years so there has to be signs of a indo european culture there.

Yes, there is plenty of archaeological evidence. I have made a very concise summary here, but I'd recommend you to read books on the Bronze Age in Europe, like The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World .

but connecting all Indo European r1b to red hair seems way to simple to be true. Why are there no redheads in bulgaria today or at least a very very small amount even though the Thracens and Daciens where known for it. does this mean there was some type of population replacement in Bulgaria.

Some type of population replacement ? Bulgaria is probably the part of Europe that underwent the most population replacements since the Neolithic. It is the connection point between the Middle East, Europe and the Pontic Steppe. All migrants in any direction passed through Bulgaria. The southern Balkans are the most genetically mixed part of Europe, and Bulgaria probably on top among them.

also isnt the Armenian language the oldest branch if the indo european language. and since they have u placed R1b1a the ancester to all Indo European R1b in Armenia could that mean R1b is really the source of Indo European languages.

No, Armenian is not the oldest branch of IE. It is an isolated branch like Tocharian, because it was cut off from other branches after the steppe migrations. The Armenian branch crossed back to the southern side of the Caucasus from the steppe. It cannot be the original branch from which others stem because it is not more archaic and already includes borrowings from Uralic languages, which could only have happened in the steppes.

 

[zanipolo]

I don't understand your question. You talk about maps but seem to mix Bronze Age migration maps with modern distribution maps. Are you trying to ask what haplogroup was present in Dalmatia before the Slavic migrations brought I2a1b and R1a ? If that is your question, then the answer is also I2a1b (but not the Carpathian variety), and probably G2a, E1b1b, J and T. But I didn't make maps showing ancient frequencies.

I2a1b but not the Carpathian variety ...?................then which SNPs are we talking about?

 

[nordicwarrior]

...I dont think I1a2 which is spread out in all of Scandinavia is from I1a going by boat running away from hg R1 or hg G2a...
I would like to see a y DNA I migration map from Maciamo like he makes R1a and R1b migration maps. I think most spread across Europe after the last ice age. but the I1 being only 5,000 years old just does not make any sense it would be complicated.

I almost admire the way you keep plugging your G2a theory, sneaking that one in whenever possible! Don't buy it, so sorry. However persistence is a useful tool in these debates and I'm guessing we will see this mentioned again. Regarding the possible I1 maps, I don't know if it's possible to pin such a mobile group (boat travelling from the start plus sizable migratory patterns) to narrowly fixed geographical points. Back to the R1b map... it looks like the question of the Basques is now answered (paternal lineage anyway). I'm not an R1b expert, but this map makes it appear pretty straight-forward.

 

[Tone]

I've been doing a little more research and thinking and I still believe this map is not entirely accurate. Evidence points to the Bell Beakers being R1B. Evidence also points to Bell Beakers expanding from Iberia circa 2900-2500 bc. Evidence also points to the Bell Beakers being a maritime culture, at least initially. There should be some sort of remanent signal of this West to East r1B expansion, if it indeed occurred.


I believe L51 is the culprit.


There is a map of L51 floating around the internet and in fact there was a thread dealing with this on Eupedia here:

eupedia.com/forum/threads/27564-Where-did-R1b-L51-originate. (You have to put the html tag in front, Eupedia won't let me post links with only 4 posts to my name)

(or google "L51 Bell Beaker")

Basically, this map shows L51 is concentrated in the highlands of Southern France with hotspots in Portugal and Ireland. I believe this is a genetic signal of the Bell Beakers.


It is clear L23 was in Balkans. There is no firm evidence L51 moved up the Danube into Central Europe. Based on L51 distribution, it's more likely L51 (or maybe even L23) went to Iberia/Southern France via boat and founded the Bell Beaker culture. From there they moved to Central Europe. L11 is the Northern limit of this migration. From Central Europe they then back-migrated Westward as P312, L21, DF27, etc.


This scenario seems to fit better, in humblest of opinions.

 

[sparkey]

I've been doing a little more research and thinking and I still believe this map is not entirely accurate. Evidence points to the Bell Beakers being R1B. Evidence also points to Bell Beakers expanding from Iberia circa 2900-2500 bc. Evidence also points to the Bell Beakers being a maritime culture, at least initially. There should be some sort of remanent signal of this West to East r1B expansion, if it indeed occurred.

Even if that's the case, how do you suppose R1b got to Iberia to begin with? What mechanism drove it so far westward?

I believe L51 is the culprit.


There is a map of L51 floating around the internet and in fact there was a thread dealing with this on Eupedia here:

eupedia.com/forum/threads/27564-Where-did-R1b-L51-originate. (You have to put the html tag in front, Eupedia won't let me post links with only 4 posts to my name)

(or google "L51 Bell Beaker")

Basically, this map shows L51 is concentrated in the highlands of Southern France with hotspots in Portugal and Ireland. I believe this is a genetic signal of the Bell Beakers.


It is clear L23 was in Balkans. There is no firm evidence L51 moved up the Danube into Central Europe. Based on L51 distribution, it's more likely L51 (or maybe even L23) went to Iberia/Southern France via boat and founded the Bell Beaker culture.

So they imported the native Balkans Beaker culture... wait, huh? I still don't understand what mechanism you're proposing that would have driven members of a certain R1b subclade "via boat" to found a culture. Where are the Beaker parallels to the east?

Quoting myself from the thread you linked:

Actually one of the few true L51* samples we have is from Croatia, so I don't know where "absent from the Balkans" is coming from. We also have samples from the thinly-sampled countries of Turkey and Yemen. Combined with its presence in Poland and Hungary (which seems to be missing from the map as well), I think that there's a good case for an Eastern European or even Near Eastern origin for the L51 marker itself. That said, its expansion on Western Europe is notable, and understanding it is vital for understanding the origin of L11, which I've become increasingly convinced is European in origin.

Samples are thin, but a Danubean origin still seems plausible to me. Proposing that there's a gap so there must have been boats! seems like much more of a reach to me.

All said, I actually don't disagree with you that the Beaker culture seems like an intriguing possibility to be connected to the R1b spread somehow, I just think your proposed mechanism is poorly supported and not particularly plausible. IMHO the most likely scenario is somewhere between a Beaker-origin theory and an IE theory... in which IE or IE-like migrations pulled eastern haplogroups, including R1b, westward, then Beaker culture ("industry" is perhaps more appropriate) acted as a catalyst to spread these eastern haplogroups (particularly R1b) within Western Europe, and then later internal expansions of the groups within or neighboring the industry led to R1b having a majority in the region. It's more complicated to explain, but I have trouble coming up with anything that fits the data more simply at the moment.

 

[Sennevini]

I like the map, it is very clear; though, I don't agree with the route of M269 through the steppes. I think it travelled through Anatolia. I know the R1b IE theory. If I would say, M269 travelled trough Anatolia, becoming Indo-Europeanised in the Eastern Balkans, and travelling as such to the west.

 

[Tone]

Even if that's the case, how do you suppose R1b got to Iberia to begin with? What mechanism drove it so far westward?

So they imported the native Balkans Beaker culture... wait, huh? I still don't understand what mechanism you're proposing that would have driven members of a certain R1b subclade "via boat" to found a culture. Where are the Beaker parallels to the east?

Samples are thin, but a Danubean origin still seems plausible to me. Proposing that there's a gap so there must have been boats! seems like much more of a reach to me.

L51 is definitely in southern France, Portugal, and Ireland. We agree on that. It either got there by foot or by boat. I agree that the Danubean route is plausible, but a maritime route should at least be considered, since L51 is scarce in the Danubean plain but seems to pop up in South West Europe and Ireland.

I certainly respect your opinion to disagree, but I personally don't think it's that far-fetched to imagine that L51 (or even L23) were a maritime folk. Early clades of r1B are loaded around the Black Sea. History is full of migratory boat-people (Phonecians, Greeks, English, Spanish, etc.). We know that the Bell Beakers were a maritime folk, this alone should lead to the consideration that L51 (if it is Bell Beaker) could possibly have been maritime.

Why did they go to Iberia (and Southern France, and Italy, and Ireland)? Why is there no material link between Bell Beakers and the Balkans? I don't know. This is pure conjecture, but early r1B clades were probably metal workers. Iberia and Ireland are prime targets to exploit for metals. Just like with more recent boat migrations, Iberia at the time could have offered cheap land, easily conquerable natives, abundant resources, and opportunity for trade. As for why there is no link between the Bell Beakers and the Balkans, I can only offer that Bell Beaker culture was something new, and could have developed in Iberia from an isolated people who immigrated from the Balkans hundreds of years earlier and had no ties anymore. But this is all conjecture. I'm just trying to think outside the box and offer alternatives for solving the puzzle.

And for me, the Bell Beakers are a puzzle.

 

[Fire Haired]

I almost admire the way you keep plugging your G2a theory, sneaking that one in whenever possible! Don't buy it, so sorry. However persistence is a useful tool in these debates and I'm guessing we will see this mentioned again. Regarding the possible I1 maps, I don't know if it's possible to pin such a mobile group (boat travelling from the start plus sizable migratory patterns) to narrowly fixed geographical points. Back to the R1b map... it looks like the question of the Basques is now answered (paternal lineage anyway). I'm not an R1b expert, but this map makes it appear pretty straight-forward.

there was a G2a invasion of Europe before R1. That is just a fact that is why 26 of 31 Neolithic Y DNA samples had G2a. U cant just always give the excuse well the hunter gathers did not have advanced burails that is just an assumption otzie the ice man who had G2a we did not look for him we found him covered in ice in the middle of no where.

the fact is that there where almost no hunter gathers in mainland Europe 6,000ybp so no wonder we dont find them theyw here not there. Also the G2a y dna I ratio in France, Italy, and Spain G2a is way way more than hg I eastern Europe, central, and northern Europe is a different story. U cant keep ignoring this G2a came before R1 and it did invade hg I. western Europeans 6,000ybp had mainly G2a that is just that plain fact modern DNa and ancient DNA proves that.

For ur boat theory i tinik the BRitis isles is the best place to look. Britian has for some reason a branch of the eastern European I2a1b and it is pre Celtic how the heck did it get there maybe they where running away from G2a i dont know. Also britian has its own subclade of I2a2 which is dated as about 3,000 years old so it may be from celtic invasion or not but possibly ur boat theory is right. Y DNa I was probably dominate in Neolithic Britain and Ireland possibly because it is a Island. But farming still spread there so the hunter gathers cant run for long.

I think u need to remember the farmers also had boats and found there way into those islands or whatever eventulley everyone became a farmer so hg I did not hide forever.