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Thread: New migration map of haplogroup R1a1a

  1. #101
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    The origin of R1a haplogroup is in current Ukraine, around the Black sea (source: A.A. Klesov), but the origin of the R1b could be in central Africa

    h ttp://shrani . si/f/3k/fF/4iK0QLTj/r1b . jpg

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    Are there any new evidence or papers which supports Maciamos migration map?
    Are there any new papers about the splitt of indo-european and indo-aryan branch?

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    Quote Originally Posted by srbo View Post
    Are there any new evidence or papers which supports Maciamos migration map?
    Are there any new papers about the splitt of indo-european and indo-aryan branch?
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...an-split-of-IE
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #105
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vedun View Post
    ...but the origin of the R1b could be in central Africa
    This seems highly unlikely, to put it mildly.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    with the recent Karafet paper ( 2 months ago ) finding the origins of P haplogroup in modern Malaysia
    P is the parent of R

    And having to waiting nearly 30000 years between P and R

    I can only see a logical place for creation of R on the modern borders of nepal, india and bangladesh ........making R a south-asia marker.

    from there one main body headed in a NW direction , most likely forming R1a...and the other body heading through Iran to form R1b

    since the same paper stated markers H, I, J, L, T and G all basically formed in Iran 30000 years before R formed, the logical first markers into Europe would have been H, I, J, L, T and G.
    Since they all formed with 5000 years , I see no reason why they would not have migrated into Europe together
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  7. #107
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    It could have been the Persian Gulf as it was land 30,000 years ago.

    The younger sons and daughters would have to move one or two miles out as the oldest son or daughter would inherit the parents' lands or hunting grounds in a hunter-gather culture. So with each generation moving one or two miles out spreading along water routes or sources of water would be the non-violent solution to overcrowding as humans multiplied. So 30,000 years later the group spread 30 to 60,000 mile radius area from the source point (rough idea).

    Wrong: Assuming one generation = 15 years as people in those days matured early and died early.

    So area spread would be 2 - 4,000 mile radius area.
    Last edited by oriental; 02-08-14 at 01:01.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athiudisc View Post
    This seems highly unlikely, to put it mildly.
    Welcome to Eupedia Athiudisc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    here is a map this is according to one study to other resources i have seen they all say the oldest are in europe.



    This is where the guy got his info from. U can see the R1* is found in Europe and west asia just they found more in west asia. Also R1a1a* which is ancestral to the Indo European branch was only found in Europe. I would not trust these small studies as much they dont have as much info plus they have way more european samples than any other area. U cant ignore that Indo iranien culture originated in the steppes and Idno iranien R1a orignated in the steppes also Indo European culture spread from the steppes.

    u could be right about R2a starting in west asia but i still doubt. But Indo European languages did not spread from west asia possibly started there and then spread to the steppes but after that it all came fro the steppes.
    If that map is accurate (it doesn't appear to include that many samples), it tells the following story:
    1. R1a* originated (matured?) somewhere around the fertile crescent. It participated in the assembly of the "Neolithic package" in Central Anatolia (9,000 BC) and the subsequent spread of this package along the Mediterranean coasts (from 7,000 BC). It spread further along the Rhone valley into central France, where it participated in the Michelsberger Culture (4,600-3,600 BC) that spread from the Paris Basin via the Rhine to the Weser and Western Bavaria, and from 3,800 BC on colonised the British Isles.
    2. R1a1* originated somewhere NW of the fertile crescent, either on the Armenian Plateau or in areas that are now submerged by the Black Sea. It was constituting (though not the dominating) part of the Neolithic expansion along the Danube that from 6,000 BC on established the LBK in Central Europe. Two LBK samples from the Middle Elbe have been determined as P* (too deteriorated for further breakdown). From 4,100 BC, they participated in colonialisation of the Lower Elbe and Southern Scandinavia (Funnelbeaker culture). Another part spread around the Northern Black Sea, participated in the Cucuteni, Maykop and Yamna cultures and ultimately re-joined the distant LBK cousins north-west of the Carpathians (Globular Amphora Culture, from 3,100 BC). Celtic and East Germanic migrations then spread them further into France, Northern Italy and Northern Spain.
    3. R1a1a* originated near the old LBK heartland on the Central Danube (Vienna-Budapest) and took part in colonising the Alps (Mondsee Culture 3,900 BC, Baden Culture from 3,600 BC). They formed part of the Urnfield, Hallstatt and La Tene Cultures; Celtc migrations brought them to Gaul, Celtiberia, Britain, Northern Italy and Northern Greece.

    I have no idea whether that story fits to TMRA dates - if not, feel free to correct me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    Burial mounds are complex structures with internal chambers. Within the burial chamber at the heart of the kurgan, elite individuals were buried with grave goods and sacrificial offerings, sometimes including horses and chariots. Kurgans were used in the Ukrainian and Russian Steppes but spread into eastern, central, and northern Europe in the 3rd millennium BC.

    That view is outdated. Recent Danish and German excavations have re-dated (pre-)Funnelbeaker Kurgan type burial mounds (wooden burial chambers, individual burials of males, together with stone axes and arrowheads) to the early 5th millennium BC. They spread from the Danish isles southward, by some 100-150 km/ century. Below is the Baalberge burial mound, which lent its name to the central TBK Baalberge Culture (3,800-3,100 BC) around the Elbe north of the Harz mountains.
    5

    The first Central Euopean finds of domesticated horses and wagon burials (ox-drawn) date to the Salzmünde Culture (3,300-3,100 BC) on the Middle Elbe. The burial context (earth pits filled with large numbers of ceramic sherds) is similar to the contemporary Baden culture on the central Danube. The Salzmünde Culture (Horse & cart) was violently destroyed by the Baalberge Culture (Kurgans). Subsequently, a mix of various burial styles emerged in the Elbe-Saale region that included "French-style" elongated stone cists, "Totenhütten" (dead huts) with wooded or slate-covered roofs, earth graves, urnfields, and re-cycling of older TBK Dolmen.

    Burial mounds reappear in Eastern Central Europe with the Corded Ware (2,800-2,200 BC). They have parallels, but also significant differences to Pontic Kurgans:
    • No wagons / traction animals,
    • Only individuals, no "chief with subordinates"
    • Female graves equally represented (with jewellery & pottery)
    • W-E orientation of the corpses, instead of N-S orientation as in Eastern Europe.

    There may have been some cultural exchange with the Steppes, but significant population turnover is unlikely for the a/m differences, and also as CV continued to use many of the older grave sites described above.

  10. #110
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    How does this map agrees with Mal'ta boy from Siberia who was R? Actually this is the only pure R ever found from ancient times and yet this map claims it started in India.

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    We're talking about R1a1a here, and not about R*, right? And how many ancient samples were researched in India/Pakistan to come to decisive conclusions? All we know for sure is that R* is not from Europe, where they found very different ancient Y-DNA. Also, as we speak here about R1a, the oldest types of R1a* has been found in West Asia.

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    I believe the maps will be updated with time because new Y-DNA samples from the archeological works will make everything more clear.

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    Interesting thanks.

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    I would like to add something about milk lactation: R1A here in Russia can drink fresh milk and yesterday's milk, a risky adventure not available for those of Russians, who has U, I, G or J2 haplogroup.

    I often drink a morning or yesterday's milk byuing it from farmers and immediately return the bottle to them.

    The girl on the picture is my sister, Anne, and I remember the time in a village, when she drank a fresh 10-minute milk from a cup of an iron water-can, it was in august. Three days a week.

    According to an article in "Science and Life", Dnieper-Donets and Khvalynsk cultures began to move to the North when Black Sea joined with Mediterranean Sea, https://www.nkj.ru/archive/articles/6957/ and not only after but because of this event.

    "Science and Life" is a peer-reviewed journal. You can use Google Translator to read the article from our archaeologists.

    03-Typical-R1A.jpg02-R1A-Farmers.jpg01-Black-Sea.jpg
    Last edited by /Serg/; 09-03-18 at 21:07.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    We're talking about R1a1a here, and not about R*, right? And how many ancient samples were researched in India/Pakistan to come to decisive conclusions? All we know for sure is that R* is not from Europe, where they found very different ancient Y-DNA. Also, as we speak here about R1a, the oldest types of R1a* has been found in West Asia.
    Not true. At least, according to this source http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2017...plogroups.html
    Locations are in Europe - in Black Sea steppe zone.


    Also it seems, that early R1a1 were already present in Northern part of Europe, before they spread to India and Iran, so any maps, that show Iran or anything else that has anything as a source to R1a prior Z-93 are discardable.

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2017...w-obvious.html

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