New migration map of haplogroup R1a1a

[Maciamo]

After my new R1b migration map, here is an illustration of the R1a history. The pattern of migration completes that of R1b. You will find all the explanations in the R1a history section.

Just one new thing. The chiefly Germanic L664 subclade is the only subclade of R1a that migrated alongside the bulk of the Indo-European R1b population, first invading the Balkans, then going up the Danube, then establishing the Unetice culture in Bohemia, eastern Germany and western Poland. After that it seems that R1a-L664 went along the R1b-U106 branch to found the Proto-Germanic culture in the Netherlands, North Germany and Scandinavia. It was redistributed around Western Europe (esp. British Isles) by the Germanic migrations during the Iron Age.


Click to enlarge.

[Fire Haired]

this defintley makes sense the indo iranien r1a1a1b2 did not just go striaght from russia to india and iran it first went to Kazakhstan and Siberia then it went to India and iran. Like the tarium mummies they where 4,000 year old indo iraniens in western china near south Siberia with R1a1a probably R1a1a1b2. The Adronovo culture remains they where 3,800 year old Indo Iranians in south Sibera with R1a1a before the Indo Aryans ever went to India.

The Afanasevo, Adronovo, Sintashta where early Indo Iraniens a group probably from central asia or Siberia or even china went down into india and iran. The Sytheins, Cimmermans, Sarmatiens, Tocherians kept traditional Indo Iranian culture and still lived in central asia. the mtDNA, Y DNA, hair color, and eye color of Sytheins and later Indo Iranians perfectly matches 3,800 year old adrnovo people so i know that Sytheins where like 100% Indo Iranien in blood.

What about the I2a1b in Kurdish they are Indo Iranian and have something like 20% I2a1b that must mean there is a eastern european connection maybe because Indo Iraniens and Indo europeans spread from Russia and Ukriane. Maybe there are traces of I2a1b with R1a1a1b2 u know they would not have had 100% R1a1a1b2.

Do u think Balto Slavic languages might be most related to Indo iranien because Balto Slavic is R1a1a1b1 and Indo iranien is R1a1a1b2. I think there is no doubt now that Corded ware culture is proto Balto Slavic two Y DNA remains from them had R1a1a but two dident but u cant expect all to have R1a. Corded ware also existed in south Scandinavia which is probably why Scandinavia has R1a Z284 a brother group to the Slavic and Baltic. Maybe there was a related language to Slavic and Baltic in Scandnavia 4,000-5,000ybp.

But what about Greek, Thracen-Dacen, Aremnian and Illyrian speakers what y DNA did they have did they have any R1a and R1b what pre historic Indo european culture do they come from. The Indo Iranien, Bato Slavic, and Germanic Italo Celtic has basically been figured out but there is still more to learn.

[Goga]

Thanks, but I don’t agree with your map. R1a must be originally from the same are as R1b, since they have common ancestors. R1b is from the Iranian Plateau, that means that the origin of R1a is not far from it!

The OLDEST subclades and the bigger variety of R1a is in West Asia!

http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/05/r1a-tree.html

[Goga]

Oldest known branch of R1a is M420 and it's 8000 years old.
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/05/r1a-tree.html

[Goga]

What about the I2a1b in Kurdish they are Indo Iranian and have something like 20% I2a1b that must mean there is a eastern european connection maybe because Indo Iraniens and Indo europeans spread from Russia and Ukriane. Maybe there are traces of I2a1b with R1a1a1b2 u know they would not have had 100% R1a1a1b2.

Kurds have many different very OLD branches of R1a, older than in Europe! But the majority belongs to Z283 or Z93. 1 type is from the steppes and came to Kurdistan together with I2, R1a-Z283. And other type is native to the Iranian Plateau, R1a-Z93!

Also Scythians were a mix of 2 different populations. Iranians from the Iranian Plateau and natives of Central Asians / the Steppes.

[Maciamo]

Oldest known branch of R1a is M420 and it's 8000years old.

M420 is not 8000 years old, but more like 20,000 years old.

Note that my migration map starts only from M417.

[Maciamo]

Kurds have many different very OLD branches of R1a, older than in Europe! But the majority belongs to Z283 or Z93. 1 type is from the steppes and came to Kurdistan together with I2, R1a-Z283. And other type is native to the Iranian Plateau, R1a-Z93!

Also Scythians were a mix of 2 different populations. Iranians from the Iranian Plateau and natives of Central Asians / the Steppes.

The problem is that you calculate the age based on STR variances, which is terribly unreliable as it doesn't take into account historical population sizes. Only SNP's can show the true migrations. Z93 and Z283 simply cannot be older than M417, L664 or S224.

[Goga]

Somebody else calculated it, not me. Also, according to this scientific study there was no migration of R1a from Europe into Central Asia: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288

"The prevailing Y-chromosome lineage in Pashtun and Tajik (R1a1a-M17), has the highest observed diversity among populations of the Indus Valley [46]. R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward the Pontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant [46]. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does not support, as previously thought [47], expansions from the Pontic Steppe [3], bringing the Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India."

"Furthermore, BATWING results indicate that the Afghan populations split from Iranians, Indians and East Europeans at about 10.6 kya (95% CI7,100–15,825), which marks the start of the Neolithic revolution and the establishment of the farming communities."

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0034288

[Fire Haired]

Kurds have many different very OLD branches of R1a, older than in Europe! But the majority belongs to Z283 or Z93. 1 type is from the steppes and came to Kurdistan together with I2, R1a-Z283. And other type is native to the Iranian Plateau, R1a-Z93!

Also Scythians were a mix of 2 different populations. Iranians from the Iranian Plateau and natives of Central Asians / the Steppes.

R1a Z93 is younger than branches in europe or the same age. It descends from proto indo Iranians who migrated to central Asia from Russia about 6,000ybp. R1a Z283 is from proto Balto Slavic speakers who migrated to mainland eastern Europe from Russia 6,000ybp. It probably came to Kurdistan from eastern Europe because cimermans migrated there from Ukraine 2,700ybp. u should look at the R1a tree before claiming they have older R1a branches than Europe then saying it originated around the Iranian platue (click here for tree)

The proto Indo European branch is R1a1a1b Europe has many older branches like R1a, R1a1a, R1a1a1 that asia does not or at least it is more popular in Europe. Not all R1a in Europe is from Indo Europeans mainly in western Europe. R1a probably originated in Europe while R1b in the middle east. The first Indo European culture was a mix of European hunter gathers with probably R1a1a1 and mid eastern farmers and bronze makers with probably R1b L23 and R1b M269.

The Indo European culture really took off in Russia and Ukriane about 6,000-7,000ybp. The Indo European language spread from Russia and Ukriane. Some spread from the north caucus mountians but it is hard to say which ones. The Kurds language and most R1a and some R1b come from Russia and Ukrainen Indo European cultures i guess the R1b orignalley came from around the caucus and Iraq but Russia was the destnation right before it came to Kurdistan. Most R1b in Kurds probably is from the mid east and has nothing to do with Indo Europeans like i said before 7,000ybp or so mid eastern R1b mixed with European R1a and it gave borth to Indo European culture but alot of R1b stayed in the mid east.

the Cimmeriams who where Indo Iranian indo Europeans round the black sea migrated and conquered areas that perfectly match where Kurds live today. This could explain why Kurds have 20% I2a1b which is Paloithic eastern European and is over 30% in areas Cimmermans migrated to the middle east from.

Also early Indo iranien remains in central asia had mainly light brown/blonde hair and light eyes that is why some Kurds look that today which means there was a migration of Cimmerman European looking people into Kurdistan thousends of years ago. Kurds language and everything indo european about them came from Ukriane and Russia some parts possibly the lnaguage orignalley came from the caucus. The indo european language did not start around iraq or Iran if that is what u are trying to say.

[Taranis]

Goga, with your idea for an Asian origin, I would really like to know how you do interprete the distribution of L664 (the northwestern European subclade) and the fact that it sits quite close to the "root" of the R1a "tree" (it sits outside of the respective major European and Asian branches). If R1a was originally wholly in Asia, how did L664 wind up there?

[Goga]

Dude. Cimmerians were not Indo-Iranian at all. Indo-Iranians didn’t existed anymore during the times of the Cimmerians, the Medes and Persians. Indo-Iranians existed thousands of years before the so called Cimmerians. Some say that Cimmerians were Iranic speakers, influenced by Iranic nomad tribes from the east. That means that genetically Cimmerians were not Iranic at all.

Indo-European culture is from the West-Asia. Maykop folks Indo-Europized tribes in the Yamna horizon.

R1* is not from Europe! R1b was born from R1* somewhere around the Iranian Plateau. R1a was also born from R1* not far where R1b was born.


Light hair and light eyes can be native to Caucasus, to a West Asian component. Nations in the Caucasus are not Indo-European at all, but they’re very light! Light traits are just native to West Asian component like they’re native to West European component!


Also, Iraq (Babylon) is NOT Iranian Plateau, but South Mesopotamia!


Also, Kurds are the Iranic Medes. The Medes were much more powerful that the Cimmerians and Scytho-Sarmatians COMBINED! The Medes DESTROYED the Scythian kings in Kurdistan!

[Fire Haired]

Somebody else calculated it, not me. Also, according to this scientific study there was no migration of R1a from Europe into Central Asia: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288

"The prevailing Y-chromosome lineage in Pashtun and Tajik (R1a1a-M17), has the highest observed diversity among populations of the Indus Valley [46]. R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward the Pontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant [46]. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does not support, as previously thought [47], expansions from the Pontic Steppe [3], bringing the Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India."

"Furthermore, BATWING results indicate that the Afghan populations split from Iranians, Indians and East Europeans at about 10.6 kya (95% CI7,100–15,825), which marks the start of the Neolithic revolution and the establishment of the farming communities."

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0034288

The oldest branches of R1a from what i have read are mainly found in Europe. Also Indo European culture took of in russia and Ukriane then spread to central asia. So it would make sense R1a spread with them. We have DNA from very early 4,000 and 3,800 year old Indo iranien cultures in south siberia and west china all had Y DNA R1a1a except one had Siberian C. They also had mainly light hair and eyes which means they came from Europe and their austomnal DNA was most related to northeast Europeans.

So we know R1a migrated to central asia from Russia. Indo European culture and language may have actulley started around the caucus with R1b mid eastern people, But r1a in central asia with out a doubt is Indo European and comes from russian (i dont mean modern slavic russians) migrations. Archaeology ancient DNA, modern DNA everything points to a Indo European migration from Russia that brought R1a to central asia.

Most R1a subclades in asia decend from proto Indo European R1a1a1b which is still found in Russia. Also Balto Slavic and Scandinavian r1a also descends from it and it migrated exactley when a culture in Russia spread into eastern Europe, Scandinavia, and central asia so we know for a fact it migrated from Russia there is no arguing it. we have Y DNA from both these cultures in europe and asia and they had R1a1a so like i said there is no doubt R1a spread to central asia from Russia with indo european language.

The whole diversty thing is because Indo Iraniens from i think Iran migrated and conquered the Indus valley civilization in the iNdus valley and they made themselves the leaders and high ranking in the caste system. India had already had a civlization and a hug population unlike Europe which had tribal society and a much smaller population. So the diversty is going to be higher in india just because they have had more people not because it originated there. the older subclades are in Europe and the indo european subclade migrated to India orignalley from Russia there is no arguing that u cant just look at diversty.

[Goga]

'Evidence for the world’s earliest beer and wine making in Kurdistan
The disturbing, but not very surprising element in their report was to attribute the development of beer making technology to the far-off Sumerians. Several years earlier, the earliest known evidence for the grape wine making technology found at Godin had also been duly contributed to the Sumerians.'
http://www.kurdistanica.com/?q=node/199

'Viticulture was believed to have been introduced to India by Persian traders sometime in the 4th millennium BC. Historians believe that these early plantings were used mostly for table grapes or grape juice rather than the production of an alcoholic beverage. During the Vedic period of the 2nd and 1st millennia, the Aryan tribes of the region were known for their indulgence in intoxicating drink and it seems probable that wine was a current beverage.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_wine

[Goga]

http://books.google.nl/books?id=ujn2...arappa&f=false

[Goga]

Sumerian GOLDEN Bull






Maykop GOLDEN Bull

[Fire Haired]

Dude. Cimmerians were not Indo-Iranian at all. Indo-Iranians didn’t existed anymore during the times of the Cimmerians, the Medes and Persians. Indo-Iranians existed thousands of years before the so called Cimmerians. Some say that Cimmerians were Iranic speakers, influenced by Iranic nomad tribes from the east. That means that genetically Cimmerians were not Iranic at all.

Indo-European culture is from the West-Asia. Maykop folks Indo-Europized tribes in the Yamna horizon.

R1* is not from Europe! R1b was born from R1* somewhere around the Iranian Plateau. R1a was also born from R1* not far where R1b was born.


Light hair and light eyes can be native to Caucasus, to a West Asian component. Nations in the Caucasus are not Indo-European at all, but they’re very light! Light traits are just native to West Asian component like they’re native to West European component!


Also, Iraq (Babylon) is NOT Iranian Plateau, but South Mesopotamia!


Also, Kurds are the Iranic Medes. The Medes were much morepowerful that the Cimmerians and Scytho-Sarmatians COMBINED! The Medes DESTROYED the Scythian kings in Kurdistan!

Indo Irainen culture is from Afanasevo, Adrnovo, Sinshta cultures not Maykop which existes as far ack as 6,000 years ago about thousand years before Indo iranien language began. The first Indo European cultre may have come from the caucus and those cacus people like Maykop may have had mix of a culture from the mid east and Russia and Ukraine.

All we know for sure is Indo European culture and language began around the Caucus, Russia, and Ukraine 6,000-8,000ybp. The Indo Iranians original ancestors came from a Russian culture named Yamna. You may be right i kind of think the same and there is alot of evidence for what u are saying about Maykop Indo Europeaiszing the Russians in Yamna horizon.

R1* is from 25,000-30,000ybp way way way way before Indo Europeans. Alot happens in 20,000 years also R1* is Mongoloid. Europeans and mid easterns are Caucasian. R1* orignally came from Siberian and native Americans ancestors so 50% of Europeans including myself trace their paternal line back to a native american looking person in asia 25,000- 30,000ybp. There are still some Native Americans and Siberians with the original form R1*

I guess there is DNA evidence R1* originated around the Iranian platue (it was still mongliods who where the first) it was so long ago it is much harder to say that than to say Indo European R1a1a1b orignated in Russia. Somhow Mongoloid inter married with caucasins then r1a started probably in Europe 18,000ybp and R1b started probably in the mid east 18,000ybp. That is still way way way before Indo Europeans.

So it is hard to figure out the history of R1a and R1b from 18,000-6,000ybp.

[Goga]

Goga, with your idea for an Asian origin, I would really like to know how you do interprete the distribution of L664 (the northwestern European subclade) and the fact that it sits quite close to the "root" of the R1a "tree" (it sits outside of the respective major European and Asian branches). If R1a was originally wholly in Asia, how did L664 wind up there?

As far as I know L664 is NOT the ancestor of European Z83 and Asian Z93. L664 is very old subclade in Europe and can be arrived in Europe in the much earlier waves of tribes from West Asia, like with the Neolithic farmers

[Fire Haired]

Dude. Cimmerians were not Indo-Iranian at all. Indo-Iranians didn’t existed anymore during the times of the Cimmerians, the Medes and Persians. Indo-Iranians existed thousands of years before the so called Cimmerians. Some say that Cimmerians were Iranic speakers, influenced by Iranic nomad tribes from the east. That means that genetically Cimmerians were not Iranic at all.

Indo-European culture is from the West-Asia. Maykop folks Indo-Europized tribes in the Yamna horizon.

R1* is not from Europe! R1b was born from R1* somewhere around the Iranian Plateau. R1a was also born from R1* not far where R1b was born.


Light hair and light eyes can be native to Caucasus, to a West Asian component. Nations in the Caucasus are not Indo-European at all, but they’re very light! Light traits are just native to West Asian component like they’re native to West European component!


Also, Iraq (Babylon) is NOT Iranian Plateau, but South Mesopotamia!


Also, Kurds are the Iranic Medes. The Medes were much more powerful that the Cimmerians and Scytho-Sarmatians COMBINED! The Medes DESTROYED the Scythian kings in Kurdistan!

we dot know the origin of blonde hair and light eyes my guess is Paloithic Europe somehwere from 20,000-50,000ybp. But it may have orignated in the mid east 50,00ybp all we know for sure is it is either European or became way way way way way way way more popular in Europeans ancestors than mid easterns. Also the austomnal DNA from 4,000 and 3,800 year old Indo iranien remains prove they where European and that their closest modern relatives are north east Europeans live Latviens who have 60% blonde hair.

People in the caucus are not very light sure about 1-10% have blonde hair and it is true they have almost no European blood but actulley the ones with blonde hair have a pretty good amount of european admixture in austomnal DNA i can show u specifics in another post if u would like. Also the austomnal DNA from Indo iranien remains and the fact they had majority blonde hair all points to a european origin no way do they come form the caucus possibly genetically they orignally came from north western russia 8,000ybp. Their culture spread from Russian yamna culture not Maykop.

Also Kurds do have 20% Paloithic eastern European i2a1b which only exists in eastern Europe. Also the Cimmermans who did conquer areas that match modern kurds terriotory

look at areas of the Urartu a people cimmermans helped Assyrians conquer in 714bc it matches modern Kurds and I2a1b and R1a in the mid east there might be a connection.


distributions of modern kurds


also look at distrubutation of R1a and I2a1 formally I2a in the mid east it matches both maps.

[Goga]

Indo Irainen culture is from Afanasevo, Adrnovo, Sinshta cultures not Maykop which existes as far ack as 6,000 years ago about thousand years before Indo iranien language began. The first Indo European cultre may have come from the caucus and those cacus people like Maykop may have had mix of a culture from the mid east and Russia and Ukraine.

WRONG! Afanasevo was Tocharian and NOT Iranian. Tocharian were different from Iranians. Also Afanasevo etc. was influenced by culture from YAMNA. And Yamna was influenced by Maykop!

[Fire Haired]

As far as I know L664 is NOT the ancestor of European Z83 and Asian Z93. L664 is very old subclade in Europe and can be arrived in Europe in the much earlier waves of tribes from West Asia, like with the Neolithic farmers

well it seems experts who look at SNP's say L664 is the ancestor of European Z83 and asia Z93. also we have 6 Y DNA samples from 6,000 abnd 5,000 year old Indo Europeans in Russia i will not be surprised if they test it for L664 it will have it.

If it originated in west asia why is it more popular in Europe. U keep pushing for a west Asian origin of R1a when so far there is no strong evidence at all everything points to a European origin and a Russian origin of all Indo European R1a which makes sense because Indo iraniens and Balto Slavs came from a Russian culture aka Yamana 5,000-6,000ybp.

Just saying there are 31 y DNA samples of farmers in western Europe dating from 7,000-4,725ybp 26 had G2a, 4 had I23a1a, and one had E1b1b V13. LAter Indo European culture Corded ware remains from 4,600ybp had R1a1a and Bell Beaker in Germany which was conquered by Germanic Italo Celts its 4,600 year old remains had R1b. also early Indo Iranien remains in asia had R1a1a. So there is no doubt in the world ancient DNA totally agrees with out people are saying about Indo European migrations and Indo European cultures.

[Goga]

People in the caucus are not very light sure about 1-10% have blonde hair and it is true they have almost no European blood but actulley the ones with blonde hair have a pretty good amount of european admixture in austomnal DNA i can show u specifics in another post if u would like. Also the austomnal DNA from Indo iranien remains and the fact they had majority blonde hair all points to a european origin no way do they come form the caucus possibly genetically they orignally came from north western russia 8,000ybp. Their culture spread from Russian yamna culture not Maykop.

So what? There was some BACKmigration of tribes from Northern Caucasus /Yamna Horizon into Kurdistan. Those folks brought European ‘R1a-Z283’, ‘I2’ and maybe ‘E’ to Kurdistan. I’m not denying this migration wave!

But the fact is that there is NO I2a, R1a-Z283 and E in Central Asia.


You’re wrong again. Most NATIVES of Caucasian Mountains have fair feature. And they’re predominantly West Asian. So there is a correlation between fair features and a West Asian aDNA-component!

[Fire Haired]

Sumerian GOLDEN Bull






Maykop GOLDEN Bull

yes maykop had mid eastern connections and indo european language may have spread from caucus to russia. But how do u know if Maykop did not get their indo european parts like a kurgen burail from Ukriane and Russians who they traded with alot. Indo European culture boomed in Russia and Ukriaine 6,000-8,000ybp. almost all Indo European languages spread from russia and Ukriane.

[Goga]

well it seems experts who look at SNP's say L664 is the ancestor of European Z83 and asia Z93. also we have 6 Y DNA samples from 6,000 abnd 5,000 year old Indo Europeans in Russia i will not be surprised if they test it for L664 it will have it.

No! http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1a_Y-DNA.shtml

[Fire Haired]

i meant to say S224 is the ancestor of asian Z93 and European Z283

[Goga]

i meant to say S224 is the ancestor of asian Z93 and European Z283

But there's no EVIDENCE for it, that S224 is from Europe at all! Taranis meant L664...