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Thread: How did the ancient Romans turn into Italians ?

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.


    Do modern English who are a mix of Insular Celtic and Germanic tribes from northern Germany. Do they feel in their instinct to go raid a town and act all barbaric . Modern German's personality is far more different from ancient Germanic tribes. Germans and British today are like the most organized and smart Europeans they used to be the most primitive. Alot changes in 2,000 years how many people do u see living in tribal society or fighting with iron swords in Europe anymore.

    Look at king louis XVI at the right king of France from 1754-1793) most of his ancestors where Gauls i guess there was some mid eastern input during the roman age. now compare him to this Gaul the type that where lead by Cheif Brennus sacked Rome in 387bc.


    Looks like Alot changed in France from Gaulic times to the 1700's. By blood louis was a Gaul but that does not mean he had to act like one. I think every people group has the same human personalty traits we just choose to use them a little differently some times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    some very very silly remarks about the military from some.
    Just to let you know Venice defeated the mighty germanic habsburgs in 1508 and never lost a war against them. The best the habsburg got was a drawn out war of Gradisca 1614-1618.
    In 1508
    In 1507, Julius (Pope) returned to the question of the cities in Venetian hands; once again rebuffed by the Senate, he encouraged the recently elected Emperor Maximilian I to attack the Republic. Maximilian, using his journey to Rome for the Imperial coronation as a pretext, entered Venetian territory with a large army in February 1508 and advanced on Vicenza, but was defeated by a Venetian army under Bartolomeo d'Alviano. A second assault by a Tyrolean force several weeks later was an even greater failure; Alviano not only routed the Imperial army but also proceeded to seize Trieste and Fiume, forcing Maximilian to conclude a truce with Venice.[8]
    The peace was signed for 3 years, a pact that Maximilian broke in 1509............you cannot even trust the HRE!!

    Another......war of Lepanto against the Ottomans
    208 Christian ships of which 110 where Venetian ships ( 55% ) , ONLY 12 Spanish ships and the rest other Italians defeated the mighty Ottomans


    do I need to give more......maybe Francesco Morosini or Girolamo Cornaro adventures

    The issue is Italians never fought for each other and never will fight for each other...........its far better if the country became a confederation of Italian states.........it WILL work better
    Was that the guy who lost Crete to the Ottomans and then essentially made a ruin out of the Parthenon by bombing the crap out of it? :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boss View Post
    Was that the guy who lost Crete to the Ottomans and then essentially made a ruin out of the Parthenon by bombing the crap out of it? :)
    yes after the longest siege in military history 22 years for a "drawn" result where you left crete with your army intact, all artillery taken with you, all money and possessions and any Greek citizen that wanted to leave seems like a good result against the might of the ottomans.

    He got his revenge 20 years later with the capture of the whole of the Peloponnese and Athens. Pity his army got the plague and he had to cease operations.
    The bombing of the pantheon was not a highlight , but the ottomans filled it with gunpowder and arms. If the ottomans cared about history they would have vacated Athens.......like the Germans vacate Rome in WWII and did not contest it .

    Then again, the Americans bombed a POW in southern Germany and killed my uncle ( was a POW ) with 8 days of the war remaining. The Americans bombed the camp because the Germans had tanks and artillery in the camp. ..........whose fault is this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    there is no doubt modern Italians descend from Romans i guarantee u the ones in the city Rome today are mainly descended of the first people to make the city.
    Really ? You guarantee it. Then you obviously don't know much about history. Rome had a population of approximately 1.5 million (some claim even more) in the first century. Its population gradually fell during the late Empire and the Middle Ages. In the early 15th century Rome had barely 17,000 inhabitants. In other words it lost 99% of its "golden age" population. Nowadays Rome has over 3.5 million inhabitants, many of whom came from all over Italy (and abroad) over the last few centuries. So please explain again how can modern Romans are descended from the ancient population of the city.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    Italy has changed alot since Rome it has been 2,000 years. Look how much different the world is than it was 200 years ago i doubt personality traits are passed down so much in people group like maciamo said. it was not in romans dna to be stern they had that ability but it became more of a part of their culture.
    I didn't say that personality traits are inherited. I said character traits. That's very different. Character is the innate, non-acquired part of personality. To make it easier to understand, let's take dogs as an example. Each breed of dog has its own character, although each individual dog has its own personality. Regarding character, Golden Retrievers have a very sociable and kind nature. Pitbulls are mean and aggressive. Newfoundlands and St. Bernards are impassible, while poodle and many other small dogs are excitable and bark all the time. German Shepherds make excellent watchdogs, while Dachshunds are far too playful and immature to be of any use in that regard. All these character traits are set in their genes.

    Its the same for humans except that we are not so clearly divided into breeds. But some traits do apply to whole ethnic groups. Germanic and East Asian people can be considered diligent and disciplined. Celtic people are far more individualistic than any Asian or African people. Arabs are proud and confident people, while East Asians often lack self-confidence. Greeks and Italians are outgoing and talkative, while Finns and Siberians are far more reserved, shy and taciturn. I could continue for hours, but you get the idea.

    Personality is by definition the traits associated with a person, and therefore vary between individuals even within the same ethnic group. Actually even identical twins have different personalities, while their genetic character/temperament is identical. If one twin is an extrovert by nature, the other will be too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Really ? You guarantee it. Then you obviously don't know much about history. Rome had a population of approximately 1.5 million (some claim even more) in the first century. Its population gradually fell during the late Empire and the Middle Ages. In the early 15th century Rome had barely 17,000 inhabitants. In other words it lost 99% of its "golden age" population. Nowadays Rome has over 3.5 million inhabitants, many of whom came from all over Italy (and abroad) over the last few centuries. So please explain again how can modern Romans are descended from the ancient population of the city.
    Indeed.

    Also at one point during the Gothic-Byzantine Wars Rome was completely depopulated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boss View Post
    Was that the guy who lost Crete to the Ottomans and then essentially made a ruin out of the Parthenon by bombing the crap out of it? :)
    Venice needed German mercenaries to re-capture the Morea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I didn't say that personality traits are inherited. I said character traits. That's very different. Character is the innate, non-acquired part of personality. To make it easier to understand, let's take dogs as an example. Each breed of dog has its own character, although each individual dog has its own personality. Regarding character, Golden Retrievers have a very sociable and kind nature. Pitbulls are mean and aggressive. Newfoundlands and St. Bernards are impassible, while poodle and many other small dogs are excitable and bark all the time. German Shepherds make excellent watchdogs, while Dachshunds are far too playful and immature to be of any use in that regard. All these character traits are set in their genes.

    Its the same for humans except that we are not so clearly divided into breeds. But some traits do apply to whole ethnic groups. Germanic and East Asian people can be considered diligent and disciplined. Celtic people are far more individualistic than any Asian or African people. Arabs are proud and confident people, while East Asians often lack self-confidence. Greeks and Italians are outgoing and talkative, while Finns and Siberians are far more reserved, shy and taciturn. I could continue for hours, but you get the idea.

    Personality is by definition the traits associated with a person, and therefore vary between individuals even within the same ethnic group. Actually even identical twins have different personalities, while their genetic character/temperament is identical. If one twin is an extrovert by nature, the other will be too.
    that is what i thought u meant i defintley dont think it is in Germans DNA to be disciplined and diligent. Those are just traits formed from modern German culture. Just because Romans where so stern does not mean modern Italians need to be too. Humans are so related to each other unlike breeds of dogs that we dont have diff character traits. A good example is modern French and ancient Gauls two completely diff characters. It is not in blacks DNA to be more violent just because they are in modern western culture. it is because the place they have been put in ancient west African tribes where less or as violent as ancient Europeans.

    i think we are born knowing what human nature is and human character. people are born with diff characters but i defintley don't think diff ethnic groups have their own characters. If u think about in the whole Human family tree. Italians and Germans are extremely related they both mainly descend from the same group of people that came to Europe over 35,000ybp they both have some R1b L11/P310 Indo European in them. They should have the same character traits according to what u are saying.

    what about eskomes are they diligent like east Asians and what about the ancient Huns or Mongolian tribes they dont fit the idea of a typical east Asian. we mainly only hear about Chinese Japanese but their are tons of east Asian looking people all over Asia and Canada and almost all of them are tribal some still stone age. Their character is nothing like civilized east asians. Native Americans are in the same Mongloid family as Chinese do they have the same character traits.

    Also what genetic evidence is there that Italians and Greeks are related at all ancient Greece and Rome does not been they are close relatives. Their only similarity is both have very high amounts of mid eastern which came in greco roman age. Their European side is almost completely unrelated. The west Mediterranean I2a1a split from east European I2a1b about 15,000-20,000ybp i think and that is where Italians and Greeks get their European side from. I know like 2% of Italians have I2a1a but that is just a direct paternal lineage they get their european blood from those people who lived in Paloithic Itay. Then later migrations with non European farmers came. Greeks European side is in the same family as Ukrainians it is eastern European. There is no such thing as the Mediterranean race or anything like that people in the Mediterranean have not been able to have alot of contact till just 3,000-4,000ybp. The Mediterranean is just full of unrelated people from Europe, mid east, and north Africa who have mixed like in the last 3,000 years but orignalley unrelated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Venice needed German mercenaries to re-capture the Morea.
    yes, they employed brunswickers , you can read the full campaign
    Venice, Austria and the Turks in the seventeenth century....by Setton

    Every state employed "mercenaries"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Really ? You guarantee it. Then you obviously don't know much about history. Rome had a population of approximately 1.5 million (some claim even more) in the first century. Its population gradually fell during the late Empire and the Middle Ages. In the early 15th century Rome had barely 17,000 inhabitants. In other words it lost 99% of its "golden age" population. Nowadays Rome has over 3.5 million inhabitants, many of whom came from all over Italy (and abroad) over the last few centuries. So please explain again how can modern Romans are descended from the ancient population of the city.
    I agree, then the question is

    What was ancient Roman haplotypes ..........it must have been a marker which is still diluted
    I have seen that it was E , but I am unsure.

    I have also seen, that the Romans branched out of Etruscan and was ruled by etruscans for a very long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Really ? You guarantee it. Then you obviously don't know much about history. Rome had a population of approximately 1.5 million (some claim even more) in the first century. Its population gradually fell during the late Empire and the Middle Ages. In the early 15th century Rome had barely 17,000 inhabitants. In other words it lost 99% of its "golden age" population. Nowadays Rome has over 3.5 million inhabitants, many of whom came from all over Italy (and abroad) over the last few centuries. So please explain again how can modern Romans are descended from the ancient population of the city.
    ancient Romans was not a population restricted to Rome, but the whole of the Italic peninsula, also in times of ancient Romans the city of Rome attracted people from all over "Italy". You are too simplistic minded I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    ancient Romans was not a population restricted to Rome, but the whole of the Italic peninsula, also in times of ancient Romans the city of Rome attracted people from all over "Italy". You are too simplistic minded I think.
    Based on what grounds ? If you include the Italian peninsula you might as well include the whole Roman Empire.

    What I mean by ancient Romans are only the descendants of Latins and Etruscans who lived in Rome and the Latium during the kingdom and early republic (until about 300 BCE), before the state started its policy of conquests and expansion. Even at the time of Caesar most Roman patricians descended from these old families. With the empire the Roman state became very cosmopolitan and power progressively slid away from the old Roman families. The senate and administration became increasingly cosmopolitan in the 1st century, and by the 2nd century non-Romans were elected as emperors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Based on what grounds ? If you include the Italian peninsula you might as well include the whole Roman Empire.

    What I mean by ancient Romans are only the descendants of Latins and Etruscans who lived in Rome and the Latium during the kingdom and early republic (until about 300 BCE), before the state started its policy of conquests and expansion. Even at the time of Caesar most Roman patricians descended from these old families. With the empire the Roman state became very cosmopolitan and power progressively slid away from the old Roman families. The senate and administration became increasingly cosmopolitan in the 1st century, and by the 2nd century non-Romans were elected as emperors.

    the high ranking people dont exactly change the genetics of the whole population. U know alot about the genetics of all of Europe including Italy because u made that article about it. Dont u know that Italiens are without a doubt descended from Italians in the Roman period and that Romans would be classified as most like Italian people based on their Y DNA and aust dna. Only major source of ancestry in iTaly that came in Greco Roman age was mid eastern that is why south Italy has way more southwest asian and west asian in globe13 test than north italy it did not come in the Neolithic it came from the meditreaen boat people like Phoenicians.

    I cant believe where even debating this. Romans where the same as modern central Italiens. Also i think Sardine people are Italian but they dont have Indo European iron age mix which brought more north euro aust dna or mid eastern mix that came in greco roman age. they do have some mid eastern that came in Neolithic. I think that is also why Sardine are closest relatives to Otzie who was a farmer in alps Italy 5,300ybp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    What I mean by ancient Romans are only the descendants of Latins and Etruscans who lived in Rome and the Latium during the kingdom and early republic (until about 300 BCE)
    just like modern Italians well i gues many modern Italians descend from other italic tribes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    I cant believe where even debating this. Romans where the same as modern central Italiens.
    So you are saying that five centuries immigration to ancient Rome, foreign invaders (Goths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, Byzantines, Germans), then the repopulation of Rome from the 15th century onwards had absolutely no effect on the genetic make-up of modern Rome ?

    Also i think Sardine people are Italian but they dont have Indo European iron age mix which brought more north euro aust dna or mid eastern mix that came in greco roman age. they do have some mid eastern that came in Neolithic. I think that is also why Sardine are closest relatives to Otzie who was a farmer in alps Italy 5,300ybp.
    I told you before that sardines are a species of fish. Anyway what does that have to do with our discussion ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    So you are saying that five centuries immigration to ancient Rome, foreign invaders (Goths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, Byzantines, Germans), then the repopulation of Rome from the 15th century onwards had absolutely no effect on the genetic make-up of modern Rome ?
    These invaders were a small minority. And the repopulations were made by people genetically similar (ie. surrounding regions of Rome).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Looks like an expert discussion;


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Looks like an expert discussion;
    Where are you when we need your help. :)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    So you are saying that five centuries immigration to ancient Rome, foreign invaders (Goths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, Byzantines, Germans), then the repopulation of Rome from the 15th century onwards had absolutely no effect on the genetic make-up of modern Rome ?
    How much Germanic Y DNA is in Italy today maybe 5% in northern Italy. The Germans made a very little genetic input into Italy. Italians have over 40% R1b S28 which came with italic languages 3,000-3,200ybp. They are defintley not mainly from post Roman people. I know there have been many post Roman conquering and migrations into Italy. Now that we have DNA we know those Germanic people or post Roman people made very little effect on Italy. Modern Italians fit the phiscal features of ancient Romans too based on their dark hair and eyes Romans said themselves. They dark haired unlike Gauls around the alps and Germans. I cant belive where even arguing this. Romans where defintley Italian that does not mean there are many full blooded Roman descendants(i bet could be some) but Romans where Italian they where also a mix of of Italian people. I wonder since Italian descends from Latin like Spanish French, Romanian. That some Italian surnames might trace back to ancient Romans or orignated in ancient Rome i know there have been alot alot of cultural changes in Italy since then but there might be some.

    I doubt we will never know if people in the city Rome today are mainly descended of the very first Romans because they where typical Italians if another central Italian group migrates into Italy we wont be able to tell because they have the same Y DNA haplogroups and aust. DNA. Romans in 700bc where probably not the main ancestors of Romans in 1AD and same with Romans in 500AD. But modern Romans are central Italians just like ancient Romans so they basically are the same people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I told you before that sardines are a species of fish. Anyway what does that have to do with our discussion ?
    I agree they are not Italian they orignally did not speak a Italic language, their aust dna is differnt, They have been a seperate people from the rest of Italy for at least 3,000-6,000 years and techbnicalley are not a Italic people because of language and culture.They had to get to Sardine from Italy probably 5,000ybp. They have 36% I2a1a which is western Mediterranean Paloithic Italy also has I2a1a. Also Sardine have the highest amount of Mediterranean in the globe13 test med in Europe almost defintley came with G2a farmers(does not matter if they have only 15% G2a that is just a direct lineage not full ancestry).

    They are the closest modern relatives to Otzie the ice man a farmer from Alps Italy who died 5,300ybp. I think they are defintley from Neolithic Italians. My next argument is modern Italians mainly descend from Neolithic Italians but have admixture from Italic tribes who came from the alps and mid easterns from around syria who came in the Greco Roman age through the Mediterranean. I think the base of Italians ancestry is Neolithic Sardine/Otzie like people. Sardine defintley in some way are connected to Italians because that is probably where the orignally came from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    These invaders were a small minority. And the repopulations were made by people genetically similar (ie. surrounding regions of Rome).
    The Germanic and Hunnish invaders in Italy were indeed just a minority, like it usually happens with military invasions, but not so in the case of the immigrants, slaves and freedmen of Roman times, specially from the Eastern parts of the empire (Egypt, the Levant, Anatolia/Turkey, Greece, the Balkans.) Even Roman writers (Seneca, Tacitus, Juvenal, etc.) commented about the large numbers of these foreigners in Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    The Germanic and Hunnish invaders in Italy were indeed just a minority, like it usually happens with military invasions, but not so in the case of the immigrants, slaves and freedmen of Roman times, specially from the Eastern parts of the empire (Egypt, the Levant, Anatolia/Turkey, Greece, the Balkans.) Even Roman writers (Seneca, Tacitus, Juvenal, etc.) commented about the large numbers of these foreigners in Italy.
    Exactly so.

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    Well gee Maciamo, we love you too!!!

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    Pienso igual. Es de mente muy simplista. / I agree with Wilhem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    Many character traits are highly inheritable. Cats don't make dogs or vice versa. So how is it possible that modern Italians descend from ancient Romans ?
    First, I think this is a false attribution fallacy. Most psychologists and scientists are still debating whether character traits are results of nature or nurture. Second, the use of the cats and dogs analogy is another fallacy (cant remember which kind though) because they are two different species. Perhaps a better analogy would be a soldier does not usually end up producing works of art (at least not in this day and age).

    Though in broad and vague manner, the Italians haven't changed that much. With the Popes, they lead the Crusades and led the age of the Renaissance - so they maintained the militaristic and artistic traits from their Roman times. Perhaps we can't perceive those characteristics in contemporary times due to 'being too close to the origin' if you get what I mean. ^^ Though you can say corruption among Italians haven't ended since Roman times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RosenBlues View Post

    Though in broad and vague manner, the Italians haven't changed that much. With the Popes, they lead the Crusades and led the age of the Renaissance - so they maintained the militaristic and artistic traits from their Roman times. Perhaps we can't perceive those characteristics in contemporary times due to 'being too close to the origin' if you get what I mean. ^^ Though you can say corruption among Italians haven't ended since Roman times.
    Germanic people (and especially the Normans)were far more over-represented in the Crusades than Italians lol.

    First Crusade leadership:

    Godfrey of Bouillon(Frankish knight born in the very edge of North-Eastern France)

    Raymond IV of Toulouse(Frankish knight)

    Baldwin of Boulogne(Frankish knight born in modern-day Belgium)

    Bohemond I (Norman Knight from Sicily)

    Robert Curthose (Norman knight from Normandy)

    Third Crusade:

    Philip II of France (Frankish King born in North-Eastern France)

    Richard I of England (Norman King)

    Frederick I Barbarossa (Holy Roman Emperor)

    I won't mention the leadership of all the other crusades because they weren't as important or successful as the first and third ones.

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