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Thread: How did the ancient Romans turn into Italians ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    the only one I am nearly identical to is the Augustus type.
    Augustus is 100% Dinaric type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    for me you mix truth and mistake (no offense, it is only a personal thought)
    autosomals DNA is of great importance: the current problem is we are not gone deep enough into the analysis: this tool needs more precision - Y-DNA is interesting, I agree (but i'm not so sure our branchings datations are correct because our evaluations depend on more than a parameter) but surely enough can undergo a far swifter drift than the complete autosomals sketche - concerning external look, the problem was not the method but the lack of parameters taken in account: it is unsufficient but can help nevertheless, again more for distinction than for superficial assimilation
    already an analysis of HLA (even if limited) of Madrid inhabitants, Basques an Algerians from Alger agreed apparently with what History says us...
    I don't mean to say it's of no use, it's just not useful for what it's being applied to (and really it's just not something comparitive population genetics can answer anyway), and the ridiculous conclusion is proof enough for that. As maciamo says rome basically scattered to the winds, about 999/1000 inhabitants slowly melted away, all over med. Before that lots of colonies spreading out. So it's not that rome has any continuity at all, it's that it imprinted itself on the whole med.

    You really can't make any claims at all from that data in regards to ancient populations. When you look at only current day populations it's more politics than science.

    You don't need to worry about drift with y-dna in large populations, if anything the drift would favor the eradication of the minority lines not the amplification of them (meaning we have at least as much contribution of other dna from these y-dna lines as the lines themselves, on average). You might have to worry about selection but that is also an issue for autosomal dna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    Augustus is 100% Dinaric type.
    Fine I have no issue with this, but I thought I was Noric, which is a sub of Dinaric
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    As for your k=12b results, they seem well within the range for a northern Italian; definitely Mediterranean, but not French or Iberian. All you need to do is look at the two results for northern Italians in the spreadsheet below. When you look at enough of those calculator results, you really don't even need the algorithm to tell you what the predicted first population will be. (Your North Euro is a little elevated, but not by much. The North Italian Dodecad group has an average of 24 for that component, after all. The rest of the scores are clearly in the Italian range. )
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0

    For a comparison, these are the results for the French: (Were more samples available, I think there would be substructure)
    Atlantic/Med: 44.4
    N.Europe: 36.5
    Caucasus: 8.4
    Gedrosia: 7.9
    S.W.Asian: 2.5
    N.W.African: .2
    S.Asian: 0
    SSA: 0

    Their results always seem to be somewhat higher in Atlantic Med and North Europe. The big difference, however, is in the Caucasus numbers and the S.W.Asian numbers.

    Then look at the numbers for the Spanish D population. If you see results with really high Atlantic Med, relatively low North Euro, low Caucasus, relatively high North African and trace SSA, it's someone from Iberia.

    Atlantic Med: 52.5
    North Euro: 22.7
    Caucasus: 8
    Gedrosia: 6.5
    S.W.Asian: 4
    N.W.African: 5.1
    S.Asian: .2
    SSA: .4

    I'm surprised by the composition of the "Other Italian" group from Dodecad that you mentioned. I always just assumed there were southerners in that group, or perhaps people of mixed northern Italian/southern Italian ancestry. Those numbers are closer to Tuscan levels than to Northern Italian levels, and sometimes even veer into southern Italian territory.

    Here are the results for all three groups from that same calculator: N.Italian/Tuscan/Other Italian
    Atlantic Med: 44/37.9/33.5
    North Euro: 22/18.7/21.8
    Caucasus: 22.9/30.5/ 28.5
    Gedrosia: 4.5/4.8/ 6.2
    S.W.Asian: 5.8/7.2/ 7.8
    N.W.African: .7/.5/1.1
    S.Asian: 0/0/0
    SSA: 0/0/.8

    The academic North Italian sample has 41.2 for Atlantic Med, and 23.7 as an average for North Euro. This Other Italian group has SSA, which the Northern Italians and the Tuscans do not on this analysis; they have more NW African than the other two groups, and more S.W.Asian, and almost as much Caucasus as the Tuscans. They also have .2 East African, which the others do not. So, either there are people in the group with recent ancestry from the south, or the Tyrol and these regions are really harboring ancient more southern and south eastern signals than regular North Italians. Perhaps those ancient stories of the Etruscans fleeing to the mountains to get out of the path of the Celts have some truth to them, or perhaps those areas are harboring even more ancient Neolithic signals (Oetzi had some East African and S.W. Asian, and a lot of Caucasus ), which have been preserved due to isolation.
    Thanks, I will look at it later.
    Which are the 2 north italian individuals

    The numbers for Gedrosian do not match maciano map for O_italian ( if you think its from south Italy and not from neighbours of Italy up North

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    They are not dinaric, they are melonheads, boskopoid man. The veneti and alpinid and dinaric are all a lot different. The head has a lot of width towards the top and the face is extra small in comparison to the brain, with a jutting chin. See also otto von hapburg, hitler, nelson mandela, einstein, abraham lincoln, ellen degeneres.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Noman View Post
    They are not dinaric, they are melonheads, boskopoid man. The veneti and alpinid and dinaric are all a lot different. The head has a lot of width towards the top and the face is extra small in comparison to the brain, with a jutting chin. See also otto von hapburg, hitler, nelson mandela, einstein, abraham lincoln, ellen degeneres.
    The Noric race was supposed to be a lighter sub-type of the Dinaric race.[5] The term derived from Noricum, a province of the Roman empire roughly equivalent to southern Austria. The term is not to be confused with Nordic. Norics were characterized by tall stature, brachycephaly, nasal convexity, long face and broad forehead. Their complexion was said to be light, and blondness combined with light eyes to be their anthropologic characteristic.

    Parts of the Dinaric race
    Northern and Eastern Italy was considered mostly a Dinaric area as well as western Greece, Romania, western Ukraine, southeastern German-speaking areas, and parts of southern Poland and southeastern France.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Fine I have no issue with this, but I thought I was Noric, which is a sub of Dinaric
    I'm not familiar with Deniker's racial types, what I meant is that that facial type fits very good in Dinaric area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    I'm not familiar with Deniker's racial types, what I meant is that that facial type fits very good in Dinaric area.
    That may be...I'm not a great believer in this pre-genetics method of categorizing people into ethnic groups, but if you look at sculptures of him you will see a decidedly "alpine" skull, I believe.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Thanks, I will look at it later.
    Which are the 2 north italian individuals

    The numbers for Gedrosian do not match maciano map for O_italian ( if you think its from south Italy and not from neighbours of Italy up North

    If Dienekes has informed you where those O_italian samples originate, or they revealed their place of origin on the identification thread, or you know them, and they're indeed from the Italian part of Switzerland, the Tyrol, Austria, Slovenia and Croatia, all I am saying is that this group may have conserved very ancient Neolithic alleles, which shouldn't be all that surprising as we know that the Tyrol has preserved a lot of more "southern" and "southeastern" y dna. That would also explain the Gedrosia number, since that is higher towards the north.

    I questioned whether there was southern Italian admixture in those people because, as I say, their numbers look more Tuscan to me than anything else, although they have more SWAsian than the Tuscans, and they have that trace SSA. I also know that there has been movement into the Trentino over the last 100 years or so, and into the Ticino, and I don't know how much of it was from southerners. So, I wondered if some of these people might have a grandparent, say, from the south, and neglected to mention it.

    Anyway, as to the spreadsheet...these are not the numbers of individuals. The numbers represent the averages of various reference populations. The majority of the data is from academic studies. However, Dienekes asked for volunteers. When he had a least five who asserted that all four grandparents came from that location, he included the averages for that group in the run. When you take a look at it for yourself, you'll see that the first column after the name of the group will tell you the source of the data, and the number of individuals in that group. There are quite a few Italian reference populations. There is a North_Italian academic sample from Bergamo consisting of 11 people, along with a group of 5 people assembled by Dienekes who are more generally from northern Italy. There are a lot of Tuscan samples available from the academic world, given the fascination with them, but in this calculator, he uses the HGDP sample of 11 people and the Metspalu sample of 22 people, all from a small village near Firenze, called the TSI sample. (The results for the two are very similar, as the results for Bergamo and the general northern Italian group are very similar.) Then he has Dodecad groups for the areas of Italy not covered by academic samples, i.e. Central Italians, O_Italians, Southern Italians/Sicilians, and Sicilians.

    These are the numbers for the two Northern Italian groups, Bergamo first, and then the more generally northern Italian group.

    Bergamo(North_Italian) and North Italy in general (N._Italian)
    Atlantic/Med:44/41.2
    North European: 22/23.7
    Caucasus: 22.9/22.8
    S.W.Asian : 5.8/ 5.6
    N.W.African: .7/.9
    East African:0/0
    SSA:0/0
    Siberian: 0/0
    S.Asia: 0/0
    S.E.Asia: 0/0

    Interestingly, the TSI sample shows trace North African, but the "Tuscan" sample does not, and the Tuscan sample also shows .5 for East Asian, and .5 for South Asian. I haven't quite figured those out yet, but have wondered whether that has something to do with John Hawks' assertion that the Tuscans have a high(for Europe) Neanderthal similarity. When I want to be fanciful, I also think of those decidedly "eastern" eyes that sometimes appear in Etruscan art.

    Of course, different calculators, using slightly different clusters, will have different results. If you want to compare your numbers to the averages for a particular calculator, just go to dodecad.blogspot.com, and use the search tool to look up things like K=7b spreadsheet, or Globe 10 spreadsheet, or v3 spreadsheet, or any of the others he's done.

    There generally seems to be some confusion about the admixture calculators versus IBD runs. Admixture calculators show you overall ancestry similarities. In Dienekes' case, he labels the clusters that form for the geographic areas where they are modal. IBD analyses try to match specific alleles between groups of individuals in order to find evidence of geneflow. It's sort of what 23andme does in its old Ancestry Finder, now Countries of Ancestry, which has been shown to be extremely accurate in tracking whether individuals have recent ancestry from Ashkenazi Jews.

    Ralph and Coop are doing IBD analysis. They're tracking gene flow, as does Ancestry Finder, but they seem to be able to reach much further back in time, and they claim to be able to date it. It doesn't translate to overall genetic similarity. For example, it shows, in this graphic, that there was little gene flow into Italy since about the middle of the first millennium, before Rome became an empire. The significant gene flow that appears is in the period from 4500 to 2300 years ago, and came from the north, the west, and the Balkans. What Ralph and Coop don't show is the resulting overall ancestry composition.
    http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=v4cf29&s=5

    I realize the math in the Ralph and Coop paper requires people to brush up on their math skills, but the logic is certainly easy enough. If, when studying modern populations, one finds that a certain population last experienced major gene flow from other countries 2300 years ago, or about 300 B.C., then it seems clear that the population is pretty much like it was at that time. In other words, what they see in Italy is population continuity since that period. It doesn't take a doctorate in mathematics to understand it.

    Just a few excerpts:
    A notable exception is that nearly all populations showed no significant heterogeneity of numbers of common ancestors with Italian samples, suggesting that most common ancestors shared with Italy lived longer ago than the time that structure within modern-day countries formed.

    Furthermore, we suspect that the Italian and Iberian peninsulas likely do not group together because of higher shared ancestry with each other, but rather because of similarly low rates of IBD with other European populations.

    There is relatively little common ancestry shared between the Italian peninsula and other locations, and what there is seems to derive mostly from longer ago than 2,500 ya. An exception is that Italy and the neighboring Balkan populations share small but significant numbers of common ancestors in the last 1,500 years, as seen in Figures S16 and S17S17. The rate of genetic common ancestry between pairs of Italian individuals seems to have been fairly constant for the past 2,500 years, which combined with significant structure within Italy suggests a constant exchange of migrants between coherent subpopulations. Patterns for the Iberian peninsula are similar, with both Spain and Portugal showing very few common ancestors with other populations over the last 2,500 years. However, the rate of IBD sharing within the peninsula is much higher than within Italy—during the last 1,500 years the Iberian peninsula shares fewer than two genetic common ancestors with other populations, compared to roughly 30 per pair within the peninsula; Italians share on average only about eight with each other during this period.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    'K12b' - spreadsheet
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0

    Italian populations:

    DODECAD figures -

    N Italians - [5 samples]
    41.2% Atl.-Med. / 23.7% N Europe / 22.8% Caucasus
    5.7% Gedrosia
    5.6% SW Asia / 0.2% S Asia / 0.0% E Asia
    0.9% NW Africa / 0.0% E African / 0.0% Sub-Saharan

    C Italians - [13 samples]
    34.8% Atl.-Med. / 17.1% N Europe / 32.1% Caucasus
    4.8% Gedrosia
    8.7% SW Asia / 0.1% S Asia / 0.0% E Asia
    2.3% NW Africa / 0.0% E African / 0.0% Sub-Saharan

    S Italian & Sicilian - [10 samples]
    29.9% Atl.-Med. / 11.8% N Europe / 36.5% Caucasus
    5.5% Gedrosia
    12.5% SW Asia / 0.5% S Asia / 0.0% E Asia
    2.5% NW Africa / 0.7% E African / 0.0% Sub-Saharan

    Sicilian - [15 samples]
    30.0% Atl.-Med. / 11.9% N Europe / 36.5% Caucasus
    4.5% Gedrosia
    11.9% SW Asia / 0.1% S Asia / 0.0% E Asia
    4.1% NW Africa / 0.7% E African / 0.2% Sub-Saharan


    HGDP (Stanford Uni.) figures -

    N Italians - [11 samples]
    44.0% Atl.-Med. / 22.0% N Europe / 22.9% Caucasus
    4.5% Gedrosia
    5.8% SW Asia / 0.0% S Asia / 0.0% E Asia
    0.7% NW Africa / 0.0% E African / 0.0% Sub-Saharan

    Tuscans - [7 samples]
    37.9% Atl.-Med. / 18.7% N Europe / 30.5% Caucasus
    4.8% Gedrosia
    7.2% SW Asia / 0.5% S Asia / 0.5% E Asia
    0.0% NW Africa / 0.0% E African / 0.0% Sub-Saharan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    'K12b' - spreadsheet
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0

    Italian populations:

    DODECAD figures -

    N Italians - [5 samples]
    41.2% Atl.-Med. / 23.7% N Europe / 22.8% Caucasus
    5.7% Gedrosia
    5.6% SW Asia / 0.2% S Asia / 0.0% E Asia
    0.9% NW Africa / 0.0% E African / 0.0% Sub-Saharan

    C Italians - [13 samples]
    34.8% Atl.-Med. / 17.1% N Europe / 32.1% Caucasus
    4.8% Gedrosia
    8.7% SW Asia / 0.1% S Asia / 0.0% E Asia
    2.3% NW Africa / 0.0% E African / 0.0% Sub-Saharan

    S Italian & Sicilian - [10 samples]
    29.9% Atl.-Med. / 11.8% N Europe / 36.5% Caucasus
    5.5% Gedrosia
    12.5% SW Asia / 0.5% S Asia / 0.0% E Asia
    2.5% NW Africa / 0.7% E African / 0.0% Sub-Saharan

    Sicilian - [15 samples]
    30.0% Atl.-Med. / 11.9% N Europe / 36.5% Caucasus
    4.5% Gedrosia
    11.9% SW Asia / 0.1% S Asia / 0.0% E Asia
    4.1% NW Africa / 0.7% E African / 0.2% Sub-Saharan


    HGDP (Stanford Uni.) figures -

    N Italians - [11 samples]
    44.0% Atl.-Med. / 22.0% N Europe / 22.9% Caucasus
    4.5% Gedrosia
    5.8% SW Asia / 0.0% S Asia / 0.0% E Asia
    0.7% NW Africa / 0.0% E African / 0.0% Sub-Saharan

    Tuscans - [7 samples]
    37.9% Atl.-Med. / 18.7% N Europe / 30.5% Caucasus
    4.8% Gedrosia
    7.2% SW Asia / 0.5% S Asia / 0.5% E Asia
    0.0% NW Africa / 0.0% E African / 0.0% Sub-Saharan
    You forgot the TSI HapMap3 academic sample-Florentines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You forgot the TSI HapMap3 academic sample-Florentines.
    Correct;


    Andres Metspalu figures -

    TSI30 (Tuscans) - [21 samples]
    38.7% Atl.-Med. / 19.3% N Europe / 28.6% Caucasus
    5.0% Gedrosia
    7.3% SW Asia / 0.1% S Asia / 0.0 E Asia
    0.8% NW Africa / 0.0% E African / 0.0% Sub-Saharan


    Def. very similar (almost identical) to the HGDP[Stanford Uni.] Tuscans of 7 samples;

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If Dienekes has informed you where those O_italian samples originate, or they revealed their place of origin on the identification thread, or you know them, and they're indeed from the Italian part of Switzerland, the Tyrol, Austria, Slovenia and Croatia, all I am saying is that this group may have conserved very ancient Neolithic alleles, which shouldn't be all that surprising as we know that the Tyrol has preserved a lot of more "southern" and "southeastern" y dna. That would also explain the Gedrosia number, since that is higher towards the north.

    I questioned whether there was southern Italian admixture in those people because, as I say, their numbers look more Tuscan to me than anything else, although they have more SWAsian than the Tuscans, and they have that trace SSA. I also know that there has been movement into the Trentino over the last 100 years or so, and into the Ticino, and I don't know how much of it was from southerners. So, I wondered if some of these people might have a grandparent, say, from the south, and neglected to mention it.
    The issue is not with Trentino which has always been Italian for many centuries, but with south Tyrol. The Italians gained south Tyrol after WW1 and when Mussolini got in power he decided to place many Italians in south Tyrol, usually from Moise and Apulia regions. This was to ensure the italinization of south Tyrol from the Bavarian tongue. So you can be correct in the gedrosian impact.

    in regards to O-italian, well below is what dodecad stated the very first time:


    1. Dodecad ProjectJune 22, 2011 at 1:34 AM

    O_Italian is Other Italian, and that is all due to a single individual that I am waiting to hear from to see whether he/she has any explanation for these results. I will also carry another data cleanup once I'm done with this, to detect submitted relatives or outliers that likely misreported their ancestry. This is part of the reason why I am not reporting raw averages at this time, as I have not cleaned up all the latest submissions.

    Part of the (to be continued) involves visually inspecting the population portraits to catch outliers such as the one contributing the "Northeast Asian" in the O_Italian sample.



    and 6 months later:

    As for the O_Italian_D population, it stands for Other Italian. Thus it consists of all ethnic Italian Dodecad participants who don't belong to a regional Italian Dodecad population (e.g., C_Italian_D).

    And then what I stated after, I forgot to include the French riviera area which was always Italian until 150 years ago and Corfu, these are to be added to the list


    Anyway, as to the spreadsheet...these are not the numbers of individuals. The numbers represent the averages of various reference populations. The majority of the data is from academic studies. However, Dienekes asked for volunteers. When he had a least five who asserted that all four grandparents came from that location, he included the averages for that group in the run. When you take a look at it for yourself, you'll see that the first column after the name of the group will tell you the source of the data, and the number of individuals in that group. There are quite a few Italian reference populations. There is a North_Italian academic sample from Bergamo consisting of 11 people, along with a group of 5 people assembled by Dienekes who are more generally from northern Italy. There are a lot of Tuscan samples available from the academic world, given the fascination with them, but in this calculator, he uses the HGDP sample of 11 people and the Metspalu sample of 22 people, all from a small village near Firenze, called the TSI sample. (The results for the two are very similar, as the results for Bergamo and the general northern Italian group are very similar.) Then he has Dodecad groups for the areas of Italy not covered by academic samples, i.e. Central Italians, O_Italians, Southern Italians/Sicilians, and Sicilians.

    These are the numbers for the two Northern Italian groups, Bergamo first, and then the more generally northern Italian group.

    Bergamo(North_Italian) and North Italy in general (N._Italian)
    Atlantic/Med:44/41.2
    North European: 22/23.7
    Caucasus: 22.9/22.8
    S.W.Asian : 5.8/ 5.6
    N.W.African: .7/.9
    East African:0/0
    SSA:0/0
    Siberian: 0/0
    S.Asia: 0/0
    S.E.Asia: 0/0

    Interestingly, the TSI sample shows trace North African, but the "Tuscan" sample does not, and the Tuscan sample also shows .5 for East Asian, and .5 for South Asian. I haven't quite figured those out yet, but have wondered whether that has something to do with John Hawks' assertion that the Tuscans have a high(for Europe) Neanderthal similarity. When I want to be fanciful, I also think of those decidedly "eastern" eyes that sometimes appear in Etruscan art.

    Of course, different calculators, using slightly different clusters, will have different results. If you want to compare your numbers to the averages for a particular calculator, just go to dodecad.blogspot.com, and use the search tool to look up things like K=7b spreadsheet, or Globe 10 spreadsheet, or v3 spreadsheet, or any of the others he's done.

    There generally seems to be some confusion about the admixture calculators versus IBD runs. Admixture calculators show you overall ancestry similarities. In Dienekes' case, he labels the clusters that form for the geographic areas where they are modal. IBD analyses try to match specific alleles between groups of individuals in order to find evidence of geneflow. It's sort of what 23andme does in its old Ancestry Finder, now Countries of Ancestry, which has been shown to be extremely accurate in tracking whether individuals have recent ancestry from Ashkenazi Jews.

    Ralph and Coop are doing IBD analysis. They're tracking gene flow, as does Ancestry Finder, but they seem to be able to reach much further back in time, and they claim to be able to date it. It doesn't translate to overall genetic similarity. For example, it shows, in this graphic, that there was little gene flow into Italy since about the middle of the first millennium, before Rome became an empire. The significant gene flow that appears is in the period from 4500 to 2300 years ago, and came from the north, the west, and the Balkans. What Ralph and Coop don't show is the resulting overall ancestry composition.
    http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=v4cf29&s=5

    I realize the math in the Ralph and Coop paper requires people to brush up on their math skills, but the logic is certainly easy enough. If, when studying modern populations, one finds that a certain population last experienced major gene flow from other countries 2300 years ago, or about 300 B.C., then it seems clear that the population is pretty much like it was at that time. In other words, what they see in Italy is population continuity since that period. It doesn't take a doctorate in mathematics to understand it.

    Just a few excerpts:
    A notable exception is that nearly all populations showed no significant heterogeneity of numbers of common ancestors with Italian samples, suggesting that most common ancestors shared with Italy lived longer ago than the time that structure within modern-day countries formed.

    Furthermore, we suspect that the Italian and Iberian peninsulas likely do not group together because of higher shared ancestry with each other, but rather because of similarly low rates of IBD with other European populations.

    There is relatively little common ancestry shared between the Italian peninsula and other locations, and what there is seems to derive mostly from longer ago than 2,500 ya. An exception is that Italy and the neighboring Balkan populations share small but significant numbers of common ancestors in the last 1,500 years, as seen in Figures S16 and S17S17. The rate of genetic common ancestry between pairs of Italian individuals seems to have been fairly constant for the past 2,500 years, which combined with significant structure within Italy suggests a constant exchange of migrants between coherent subpopulations. Patterns for the Iberian peninsula are similar, with both Spain and Portugal showing very few common ancestors with other populations over the last 2,500 years. However, the rate of IBD sharing within the peninsula is much higher than within Italy—during the last 1,500 years the Iberian peninsula shares fewer than two genetic common ancestors with other populations, compared to roughly 30 per pair within the peninsula; Italians share on average only about eight with each other during this period.
    The whole concept of mixing different companies on admixture results is not accurate.
    Many have different terminologies for similar names.
    ie, Bergamo is north Italian and Italian is central Italy for one company....another company has Italian for north Italy and Tuscan for central and south Italy etc.
    Other has N-Italy for west north Italy and N_Italy for east north Italy.

    some have north European meaning ....anything north of the danube river , alps not included, others have north european as commencing in the alps and looking north.

    We are mixing for no clear result

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    How did the ancient Romans turn into Italians ?
    They've turned Catholic :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    They've turned Catholic :)
    Very perceptive.

    Italy was dominated by the Papacy, an internationalist, secretive and essentially corrupt and self-serving organisation.

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    The world is much more complicated now than then.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post

    HAHAHAHAHA wonderful

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The Etruscan kings once ruled Rome, but were kicked out. The Romans absorbed the Etruscans; notably, for example, we know that Claudius married an Etruscan noblewoman, but that hardly means the Romans were really just Etruscans. It's very clear that the Latin clans were still alive and well at that period, and that these peoples (the Etruscans and the Romans) spoke different languages, from totally different language families, and that the Indo-European Latin language prevailed.

    As to the precise genetic differences, what I would say is that we don't have any "Roman" dna of that period, or any period for that matter, and as I've posted before, the only Etruscan dna we have is some HVRI values which could just as well have been in place since the Neolithic. So, everything is basically conjecture. The Italici, of which the Romans were one group, may have been significantly different from the Etruscans when they first arrived in the peninsula; we just don't know. What seems obvious, however, even if both groups came from elsewhere during the Bronze Age, or early Iron Age, (for the Etruscans there is absolutely no archaeological evidence of a mass migration at this time, so it would have to have been a small group that formed an elite) is that they would have mingled with the pre-existing population, and then with each other.

    As to "replacement" in Italy, the actual science doesn't support any such hypothesis; quite the contrary. Rather, it paints a picture of continuity since about the middle of the first millennium B.C., a continuity that is rare in Europe. I don't know why so many people seem to be unaware of the latest research using IBD analysis.
    Ralph and Coop et al: http://www.plosbiology.org/article/i...l.pbio.1001555
    The discussion at Discovery: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn...1#.Uhef6T_pxdE

    This doesn't mean, of course, as Razib takes pains to point out, that there wasn't significant population substructure dating from that time, because there was, owing perhaps the most to the Celtic migrations in the north and the Greek colonization in the south.

    It also doesn't mean that Italians don't all cluster together, however, as indeed they do, and which can be seem on any academic PCA plot. You don't have all these Italians clustering in Greece or Spain or France or Switzerland, the way that the lines are blurred between, say, the Low Countries and England, or the Scandinavian countries and England. You can go all the way back to Lao et al, and his finding that one of the major breaks in the European cline (another one being near Finland) can be located at the Alps. Within Italy itself, there is a lesser break in the cline just south of Rome, which may indeed be due to the Greek colonizations which I mentioned, but which could also be a result of some small influences from the Moorish kingdoms of Sicily and the southern part of the peninsula, and then to the fact that these provinces formed part of the general area of The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies for so long, and therefore what gene flow was experienced was largely confined to that area until perhaps fifty years ago. Despite the delusions of the followers of Lega Nord, there is no genetic evidence of any distinct population of "Padanians" who live north of the Po. Rather, except for the slight break south of Rome, Italian genetics is basically clinal except for some small genetic isolates.

    What has to be remembered is that Italy has maintained high population densities since the Neolithic. (more Cardial in some areas, and more Danubian in others, but any rate, it does not seem that it experienced the type of population crash that took place in the LBK, or even in the Balkans) The Italici then appear all over the peninsula and into Sicily, with their new Indo-European languages. On top of those layers, you have the migrations of the first millennium B.C. of the Greeks into the south, and the "Celtici" or "Galli" into the north. (Whether they were substantially different genetically from the earlier Italici or the mysterious Liguri is a whole other discussion that I don't think can be answered at this time. What should be remembered, however, is that if the historical sources are correct, many of these late "Gallic" migrations ended in slavery for the invaders, while some of them, like the Boi who settled Bologna, left for Dacia or France. I don't mean to imply that some of them did not remain, but I think their influence can be overblown.) Following this, you have a concerted policy by Rome to settle all parts of Gallia Cisalpina, which means basically Italy from the Alps to the Rubicon with colony after colony of Roman settlers. The Romans knew what they were about in terms of pacifying and unifying the peninsula.

    That is basically the ethnogenesis, so far as I currently understand it. What the Ralph and Coop study shows, if they are correct, and nobody seems to have challenged them yet, is that there were no further *major* gene flows into Italy, with the possible exception of some from the Moors in Sicily in particular, and perhaps in lesser degree in some other areas of the south. The Germanic invasions, seem to have had little influence autosomally, and the Slavic ones virtually none. (They maintain that the same is true for the Iberian peninsula) If people are looking for total population replacement, they need to look to the population history of northern Europe.

    As to cultural matters, there are numerous full length books and scholarly papers on the intertwined cultures of Rome, Etruria and Greece that would clarify matters for anyone interested in the subject.

    Ganz korrekt, Nobody1!

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    Oh god! I'm just so nervous let me eat this popcorn XD

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    If he felt the way his expressions look in that photo permanently then I'd love to glamor over him 24/7; I'd be laughing all day

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    I love the way his fat little fingers scoops up as many popcorns as he can before shoving them into his paranoid mouth

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    I love the way his fat little fingers scoops up as many popcorns as he can before shoving them into his paranoid mouth


    Quote Originally Posted by Thulean View Post
    Ganz korrekt, Nobody1!
    Thank you;
    But its not from me its from the User Angela;

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    The crowd on his show laughed at the story he was telling and that last gif file was his reaction

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    He looks like mister-tarantula with his fingers on that first pic takin the popcorn; he looks like a paranoid s_ _ _ that will never get her dose of calmness; I bet he ran through that popcorn bag in less than 5 minutes.

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    He'll never recuperate from THAT state.

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