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Thread: How did the ancient Romans turn into Italians ?

  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    since south-germans border north- Italians ( austrians are south-germans ) why don't you plot their PCA and see how close they match or not
    Here you go

    pone.0005472.s007.jpg

    nelis2009-figS2-detail.png

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...e.0005472.s007

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    Or, we could use fst. The closest similarity is not to Germany.

    North Italy to France(langue d'oïl not langue d'oc): .003
    North Italy to Spain: .003
    North Italy to Switzerland: .003
    North Italy to southern Germany: .004
    North Italy to northern Germany: .005

    I don't remember if North Italy on this study included TSI Tuscans from near Florence.

    In your PCA, the three major groupings in Switzerland are included: the Ticino, Italian speaking, which plots right next to northern Italians, French speaking Swiss, who are overlapping with the French, and then German speaking Swiss who start overlapping with the southern Germans.

    It's congruent with what the fst show.


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    Thank you, Angela, but my intention was to show that northern italians do not cluster with germans.

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    Yes, I know. Thank-you for finding those PCAs. I was merely trying to approach it from a different angle. Clearly, two groups with an FST of .004, on a PCA with any reasonable amount of resolution, are not going to cluster together.

    My main point is that as we wait for some Roman era dna from Italy, we should start to define our terms. Are the "Romans" only the shepherds on the Palatine from the earliest period, if in fact we're able to get dna from that period, which I doubt? Are they the people under the rule of the Etruscan kings who first organize and build their city? The Republican era Romans? The early empire Romans? If we're interested in the people who organized the first legions and fought in them, who learned how to improve on Greek architecture, who designed and built the aqueducts, put together the legal system, and on and on, I think we have to include all those people.

    Nor should we be including only "Patricians" in that discussion. I highly doubt the architects and master builders and lawyers and writers and artists, or even the majority of the commanders of the legions were of the highest patrician class. Even when discussing that class, the Romans were pragmatic and there was a constant flow of people from the "bottom" as they accumulated wealth and importance.

    Plus, I think there is some degree of misunderstanding of the nature of the entire patrician/plebian divide, but that's a topic for another thread.

    See:
    http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2011/2011-04-24.html

    In addition to all of that, given the recent discoveries showing how mobile people were, the vast distances that merchants traveled, I think that archaeologists are going to have to be very careful about getting the "context" of the burials right.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    One of the great mysteries of European history in my eyes is the complete reversal in character between the ancient Romans and medieval or modern Italians.

    The Romans were very organised, disciplined, serious, rather stern and stoic, military-minded, cared little about family ties (they frequently adopted people unrelated to them or murdered their blood relatives), and were unusually ready to sacrifice themselves for the common good of their nation (as legionaries).

    The Italians are just the opposite in all these respects. They are possibly the least organised Europeans, among the least disciplined. They are fun-loving hedonists. They have made terrible soldiers ever since the Middle Ages (Italians haven't won a single foreign battle in history, except in Libya and Ethiopia where their army far outnumbered the locals in number and fire power). Italians attach a lot of importance to family relations, and often place loyalty to family and friends above that of society or the whole nation. One of the main problems of modern Italy is tax fraud, because people don't feel enough solidarity with other Italians.

    Many character traits are highly inheritable. Cats don't make dogs or vice versa. So how is it possible that modern Italians descend from ancient Romans ?

    The character traits of modern Italians listed above are far more exacerbated in the southern half of Italy. This is all the more surprising since the ancient Latins originated in the coastal area between Rome and Naples. Since Rome was flooded with immigrants from all over the empire, chances are that the Roman genes survived better in Neapolitans. The region was heavily settled by rich Romans, who had holiday homes in what they called the Campania Felix. Campania was even part of the same province as Rome, the Regio I Latium et Campania. Some Roman emperors were more often in Capri than in Rome itself.

    This made me wonder how much DNA from the ancient Latins, the patricians of the Roman Republic, survive in modern Italians. Ironically the temperament and values of the ancient Romans were closer to that of modern Swiss or Germans than to that of Italians. Yet it is hard to think of two European cultures more diametrically opposite as the Swiss/Germans and the Italians, especially if we look only at the Neapolitans or southern Italians.

    EDIT:

    In his book The Moral Basis of a Backward Society, the American political scientist Edward Banfield employed the phrase 'amoral familism' to describe the inability of modern (mostly southern) Italian villagers to 'act together for the common good, or indeed for any good transcending the immediate material interest of the family'. Interestingly this complete lack of attachment to the state and lack of identification to the wider community is found nowadays in societies that I would qualify of 'short-ranged collectivist' (in which the collectivity is the family or village) of the Balkans and southern Italy, as opposed to the 'wide-range collectivism' (where the collectivity is the whole nation) of East Asia.
    evolution ...

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    ... Stereotypes ... not cool!

    Many of us are highly organized.

    What’s often perceived as disorganization, in actuality is organized chaos.

    Things still get done, and done well.
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    Well at least the Greeks are consistent. They were disorganized then and disorganized now. Fun loving then, fun loving now. Tax avoiders, tax avoiders now. But I think of it as nurture passed down from generation to generation driven by the need to survive and thrive in difficult times. Survival of the fittest edicts and attitudes. Distrust the state, it's there so the people in power can enrich themselves and those around them, avoid paying taxes because they will rob you of your hard work to give them to their friends, don't work too hard because they will steal your hard work by taxing you to death. You better have fun instead, etc. Witness what happened when Greeks immigrated to the US or Germany or Scandinavia. They worked very hard, changed their attitudes about the state because the state was not out to get them. Yep the exact same Greeks that were so suspicious of the state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    evolution ...


    Glory #4
    Grazie Azzurri


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    Maciamo take a look at the paternal lines of Ladin people.
    Just out of curiosity.
    What do you think are they Celtic people, Celto-Germanic, Celto-Italic-Germanic or Celto-Italic?
    A strange paternal line found in Ladin people and also found in some few parts of Italy is L.
    A simple thing:
    South Tyrol which is currently under the administration of Italy is the richest area of the EU and one of the most civilized.
    There are lots of Ladin people in South Tyrol.
    Also what if current Swiss people are rather related to Old Romans?
    In some parts of Italy R1B-U152 was found as high as 75%.

    Italy got a lot of migration during Roman Empire times, I suppose the soldiers that were doing great services for the Empire were receiving land into Italy.
    Also, is known lots of Goths settled in Italy. Goths assimilated various people before settling in Italy.
    In Lombardia, lots of Langobards settled.
    Maybe Ladin people are actually related to the Romans.
    They tell the name of their language comes from Latin - and Latin was the mother tongue of Romans.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Maciamo take a look at the paternal lines of Ladin people.
    Just out of curiosity.
    What do you think are they Celtic people, Celto-Germanic, Celto-Italic-Germanic or Celto-Italic?
    A strange paternal line found in Ladin people and also found in some few parts of Italy is L.
    A simple thing:
    South Tyrol which is currently under the administration of Italy is the richest area of the EU and one of the most civilized.
    There are lots of Ladin people in South Tyrol.
    Also what if current Swiss people are rather related to Old Romans?
    In some parts of Italy R1B-U152 was found as high as 75%.
    Italy got a lot of migration during Roman Empire times, I suppose the soldiers that were doing great services for the Empire were receiving land into Italy.
    Also, is known lots of Goths settled in Italy. Goths assimilated various people before settling in Italy.
    In Lombardia, lots of Langobards settled.
    Maybe Ladin people are actually related to the Romans.
    They tell the name of their language comes from Latin - and Latin was the mother tongue of Romans.
    the first paper I recall of the Ladin DNA was by Thomas in 2008, he split the german speakers and italian speakers and below is the ydna split
    GV (German, n=102): ~R1b 42%, ~G+I 25%, J 14%, R1a 9% , ~E 8%, L 2%
    ITA (Ital.speakers BZ, n=59): ~R1b 37%, ~G+I 25%, J 15%, ~E 12%, ~T 5%, R1a 3%, L 2%
    .
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17712356
    New genetic evidence supports isolation and drift in the Ladin communities of the South Tyrolean Alps but not an ancient origin in the Middle East.
    Thomas MG1, Barnes I, Weale ME, Jones AL, Forster P, Bradman N, Pramstaller PP.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    How did the ancient Romans turn into Italians ?


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