Evidence that the ancient Romans spread R1b-U152 based on Roman colonies in Italy

[Nobody1]

u know what that means lugarians where probably italic. Hallstatt Celtic culture and villnoavean italic culture came from the same root late bronze age urnfield culture 3,200ybp. R1b U152 is centered in northern Italy and areas Villnoeven culture existed. Also liguraia today is apart of the center area of r1b s28 they have 30-40%. I am very sure they where Italic anyone who was not italic in italy 2,500-2,000ybp was a invader like estrucans i know italics dominated because how r1b s28 is in italy.

Thats because the Ligurians mixed with the Indo-European Umbrians [Ambronen];
The Insubres (IsOmbri) are Indo-European Umbrians - Golasecca culture;

And its the Indo-European Umbrians [Terremare - Urnfield(Villanova/Golasecca)] that share a common root
with the Indo-European proto-Kelts [Tumulus - Urnfield];

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from Caius Sempronius (De Divis. Ital.,);
"The portion of the Apennines from the sources of the Tiber to the Nar, the Umbri inhabit, the oldest stock of the Old Gael, (Veteres Galli), as Augustus writes."
[Apenninum colunt Ligures, portionem vero Apennini inhabitant Umbri, prima veterum Gallorum proies, ut Augustus scribit.]

James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
Solinus informs us that Bocchus, a writer who has been several times cited by Pliny, reported the Umbri to have been descended from the ancient Gauls; and a similar account of their origin has been adopted, either from the same or from different testimony, by Servius, Isidore, and other writers of a late period.
[Bocchus (affranchi lettre de Sylla) absolvit Gallorum veterum propaginem Umbros esse]
[Umbri, Italiae gens est, sed Gallorum veterum propago]

Guy Bradley - Ancient Umbria (2000) [Oxford Uni. Press]
There is an interesting tradition that the name of the Umbrians came from their survival of a mythical flood: see Pliny, NH 3. 112. This tradition could go back at least to Marcus Antonius (Gnipho) in early 1st cent. BC. See Servius, Aen. 12. 753: sane Umbros Gallorum veterum propaginem esse Marcus Antonius refert: hos eosdem, quod tempore aquosae cladis imbribus superfuerunt Ombrous ἡ Ὀμβρική / Ὀμβρικός cognominatos. "Indeed Marcus Antonius reports that the Umbrians are an offspring of the ancient Gauls; and that this same people, because they survived the rains in a time of watery disaster, were called the Ombroi' "

Luke Owen Pike - The English and their Origin (1866)
If now we consult the Umbrian language with a view of discovering whether it approaches more nearly the Gaelic or the Cymric type, we find, scanty though the evidence may be, that Umbrian differs from Latin in precisely the same manner in which Cymric and Greek differ from Latin. The Latin qu becomes, in Umbrian as in Welsh and Greek, p: e.g. Latin quatuor, Umbrian petur, Welsh pedwar. The Welsh uch, uchel, appears as the Umbrian ucar, the Greek aixpog; the Welsh hwra as the Umbrian hri, the Greek aipsco;


This means a broader archaic Indo-European context
(manifested by the Urnfield culture complex)

from book:
Kristian Kristiansen - Europe before History (1998)


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The Ligurians:

Plutarch - Lives / Vol II-XIX
The shouts brought more of the barbarians to the spot..........they often called out their name Ambrones, either to encourage one another or to terrify the Romans by this announcement. The Ligurians, who were the first of the Italic people to go down to battle with them, hearing their shouts, and understanding what they said, responded by calling out their old national name, which was the same, for the Ligurians also call themselves Ambrones when they refer to their origin.

Franz Altheim - Grundlagen und Grundbegriffe (1956)
Später wurden die Ligurer von einem Stamm indogermanischer Herkunft überschichtet: den Ambronen. Ihr Name hat sich in zahlreichen Resten innerhalb des gesamtligurischen Gebietes erhalten.
TRANSLATION -
Later, the Ligurians were overlaid by a tribe of Indo-European origin: the Ambrones.
Their name has been preserved in numerous residues within the total Ligurian region.


The Ligurians were greatly mixed with the Indo-European Umbrians [Ambronen]; They even ascribed their origins to them;


How did the Ligurians look like:

Lucan - Pharsalia / Book I
Ligurian tribes, now shorn, in ancient days First of the long-haired nations [Barbarians], on whose necks Once flowed the auburn [reddish-brown] locks in pride supreme;

Theodor Arldt - Die Völker Mitterleuropas (1917)
Die alpine Rasse entspricht am besten den zur Römerzeit in den Westalpen und ihren Nachbarländern wohnenden Ligurern, so daß wir sie auch als ligurische Rasse bezeichnen könnten.
TRANSLATION-
The Alpine race best matches in the time of the Romans in the Western Alps and neighboring countries residing Ligurians, so that we could also call it Ligurian race.


I can go on about Anthropological quotes of Brachycephalic Alpinoid Ligurians (akin to Lapps etc/); but you get the picture;

---

Ligurian [MONTEFORTINO TYPE] helmet - 275 BC
/ Berceto, Parma - North Italy


Boii (Iron-age LaTene Gauls) [MONTEFORTINO TYPE] helmet / Monterenzio Vecchio, Bologna - North Italy



The Montefortino type helmet was also used by the Early (later modified) Roman infantry;

[Maciamo]

Is it possible that Brennus and his Senones tribe resettled Rome bringing U152 around 400BC? Could the stories of Brennus' eventual defeat be more propaganda, then truth? Is it possible that the Senones were misrepresented, and they should have been called Ligureans (Ambrones)? The Ligurian language has strong Italic and Celtic influence. Latin was a Q-Italic language, and may be more associated with a Q-Celtic/Q-Italic Ligurian language. This is all speculation of course. I see U152 sweeping down from the Paris Basin and invading Southern France and Northern Italy. Just a thought.

How can you conceive that the migration of a single tribe of a few thousand men could have changed the genetic landscape of Rome, and indeed of all Italy ? If that was so easy, then what would be the impact of the 50 or so Roman colonies in and outside Italy, founded with in average from 5,000 to 10,000 Roman and Latin settlers ?

Why would the Senones have had more impact than the dozens of other Celtic and Italic tribes who settled in Italy ? You have to look at the big picture.

In my estimation, the parts of northern Italy where R1b-U152 is now between 40% and 50% would have between 20% and 30% without the Roman colonies.

However that does not mean that these frequencies are a reflection of the genetic make-up of Italy 2000 years ago. Many other people settled in Italy since then. The impact of Germanic tribes alone represents about 10% of modern Y-DNA lineages in Italy, and as much as 20% in northern Italy (7% of I1, 7% of R1b-U106, 4% of R1a and 2.5% of I2a2a). If you deduct these lineages and that of all the other migrants to Italy during the Roman Empire and Middle Ages (including the Byzantines), between a third and half of modern lineages were not present in northern Italy 2000 years ago. This means that wherever there is 40% of U152 today, there should have been between 60% and 80% at the time of Julius Caesar.

[Maciamo]

wow, u put it out there. I see 1% chance of R1b-U152 being Roman due to this paper

Begoña Martínez Cruz, Evidence of pre-Roman tribal genetic structure in Basques from uniparentally inherited markers

which states 2 groups of R1b , a South and North..........south below

• R1b-S-2 (Z196), which includes:
  
  • R1b-S-2a (M153): Basques and Gascons almost exclusively
  • R1b-S-2b (L176.2/S179.2): Gascons and Catalans specially, but more widespread
  
  
• R1b-S-3 (S28/U152): Not too frequent but neither rare either among Basques and Gascons (more common in Pyrenean Navarre, Catalonia) but widespread through mainland Europe, specially Italy .
• R1b-S-4 (L21/M529/S145, L459): Often known as the Irish clade, is not restricted to Ireland at all but does have a mostly Atlantic distribution (West France, England...).

R1b-S is original from the Franco-Cantabrian region, while R1b-N would be from Doggerland (now under the North Sea), Flanders.

What do the Basques have anything to do with the Romans ? Actually the low percentage of U152 among the Basques and other Iberians is an additional proof that it was partly brought by the Romans, since the Basques and the peoples of eastern Iberia (from Catalonia to Andalusia) were not part of the Hallstatt or La Tène Celtic culture (the only other possible candidate who could have brought U152) but were part of the Roman Empire.

I don't often agree with you, but your comments here have made me loose all credibility that was left in you.

U-152 became the gallic-ligurian marker , from modern Barcelona to Venice

Then how do you explain that 22% of modern Ligurians belong to R1b-S116 and R1b-L21 ? That is the highest frequency in Italy.

The Roman DNA project started in late 2011 of which 20 skeletons are being analysied has stil not given any news, but the consenus is that it is basically J2 and E haplotypes

By consensus do you mean speculation from outsiders to the project ?

[Maciamo]

Doesnt stop at Venice;

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East Tyrol = 12.5% R1b-U152 [270 samples]

Niederstätter et al 2012
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e.0041885.s013


Venetian area = 19.2% R1b-U152 - Boattini et al 2013 [73 samples]
Lombardy/Piedmont/Liguria = 32.2% R1b-U152 - Boattini et al 2013 [161 samples]

Boattini et al 2013 -
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441

I am not sure if you realise but these studies (among others) were all taken into account for mu U152/S28 map.

[Fire Haired]

d the R1b U152 in those colonies. Because the city of Rome it self has only 20-30%.

Also I still dis agree that all I1 or I2a2 is German how do u know all R1a in Italy is R1a Z284. It seems most is probably Germanic but i think some of the I2a2 got there before Germans same with I1. I wonder what subclades of I1 Italy has do they have I1a1, I1a3, I1a4 or Scandinavian I1a2. I had no idea R1b U106 was 7% in north Italy i guess those Germanic kingdoms did make a affect. Also the distrbutation of I2a2 i think means it is not all from Germans


I think u would agree I1 is pre Germanic and I1a2 is pre Germanic. I just dont understand why people associte with Germans. I1 has nothing to do with Indo European migrations it was more popular in Scandnavia and central Europe before Germanic invasions. it is only that Germanic speakers got I1 from inter marraige with the natives. U even said on the I1 page it seems I1a2 was spread to Finalnd from Swedan before the bronze age i think before the Neloithic age too. Before Kunda culture ever got to Finland 8,000ybp.

ON ur migration maps i saw u said Kunda culture was only N1c1. I dont understand that N1c1 or just N period is a Mongliod haplogroup. The native Finnish and first people to ever live in Finland where Caucasian Europeans not Mongliods there had to be some type of Caucasian Y DNA haplogroup there before N1c1 and almost defintley was in the Y DNA I family. I1 is so distrubted in Scandnvai u can explain R1a Z284 with Corded ware culture, N1c1 with Kunda and comb Cermic cultures, R1b S21 with Nordic bronze age, G2a wih Neloithic farmers, then E1b1b and J1 can be expained with random inter marraige or farmers.

But I1 is does not match any cultures in Scandinavia in the last 8,000 years. It is spread out everywhere it seems I1 is the base Y DNA haplogroup of Scandinavia while other came later and lowered its percentage. In my opinion Scandinavia was founded by 100% or close I1a population 10,000ybp. It developed into I1a2 probably close to 10,000ybp and spread to Finland 8,000-9,000ybp and later developed into I1a2c. I1 in the rest of Europe are left overs sure alot was in central Europe probably because that is where Scandinavians migrated out off nd the Germans did spread it more but some of it i thin was already spread out. I1 probably originated in central Europe 15,000-20,000ybp

[Yetos]

Yetos u do know there is a 3,000 year old Celtic sword that has that exact design the Estriucan one does. The entire Celtic world even Insular Celts in Britain had that styleof handle. Also Celts dominated Estrucans in war Estrucans knew celts very well. celts conquered half of Etruscan territory in northern Italy. U can defintley give an explanation that Estrucans copied Celtic swords. Celts where great metal workers the Roman gladus their offical sword was made by celt Iberians. Romans chain mail was invented by i think Italian Hallstatt/ La Tene Celts or Hallstatt/ La tene celts in the alps. The helmet Romans centurions used was created by Hallstat/La tene celts in the alps.

If the Romans liked Celtic made weapons so much it would not be a surprise Estrucans did too. Also i just want to say Estrucans where almost defitley not native to Italy or Europe. Their paintgs are brown skinned while Romans where white and roman writers say Celts where even whiter. The estucans have been traced back to Turkey by some historians. I dont know hwy people in modern day tuscany are not brown skinned like estrucans or why they have about 40% Italic R1b S28. Estrucans i think are predicted to have arrived in Italy 3,500-3,00ybp so Italics may have already been settled in that area Estrucans dominated early Italic tribes. They may have been the ones who brought Civilization and greek like culture to Italy well i guess greeks also played a big role.

I know it is kind off weird there are these mysterious people groups that lived around Italy and the alps before the Roman empire. Where they Celtic, Italic, Illyrian, Non Indo European what the heck where they. Possibly they where people who still spoke Pre Italic language in Italy. But since R1b S28 is so dominate in those areas i think the where Italics. the Italic language began around Austria so why couldent there still be Italic speakers in austira and the alps before the Roman empire. They probably where not Hallstat/ La tene Celtic because those Celts had such a distinct culture. They probably had a related culture because they where Italics.

Both Celts and Etruscans were not Native,
one is mentioned to came with IE expansion, the other in 3 waves from 1500-1800 to 800 BC,

Etruscans came from minor-Asia/ Aegean to Italy, but nothing say they were dark skin,
only Black hair which is very common in Central Italy,
the myth for Romans gives 2 origins, '
1) the Luppa (Lukos In Greek, remember Lukka people)
2) the Troyans ( Virgil's Aineiad)

Sea peoples change a lot the face of Europe, and the way of war tactics,

It is not coincidence that Greek and Roman weapons show simmilarity same time, cause both are designed after sea peoples, in the lands were sea peoples settled.

Rome either Celtic either Not, learned (assimilated) a lot by sea peoples.


the first 2 horn helmets were not used by celts or by Germans,

they learn it from Sea peoples,

ROME WAS BUILD AFTER ETRUSCAN SETTLE IN ITALY, AND NEXT TO THEM.

[Fire Haired]

What do the Basques have anything to do with the Romans ? Actually the low percentage of U152 among the Basques and other Iberians is an additional proof that it was partly brought by the Romans, since the Basques and the peoples of eastern Iberia (from Catalonia to Andalusia) were not part of the Hallstatt or La Tène Celtic culture (the only other possible candidate who could have brought U152) but were part of the Roman Empire.

I dont really agree. Hallstatt and La Tene Celts i am pretty sure brought R1b Df27 into Iberia. eastern Iberia has 60-75% R1b S116 so they defintley where affected by Celts. The original Hallstatt. La tene people would have been full of R1b S28/U152 so as the culture spread to diff Celts possibly some R1b S28 remained. Some people said the same about R1b S28 in south England but it was in the same area La Tene spread to in England. It seems Rome did not spread any or very little R1b S28 they probably spread mainly J2 and some E1b1b and J1.

Then how do you explain that 22% of modern Ligurians belong to R1b-S116 and R1b-L21 ? That is the highest frequency in Italy.

modern ares of Liguria according to u have 30-40% R1b U152. So how could they have overall 22% R1b S116. If u mean the original R1b S116* that would be shocking that could mean it originated around northern Italy.

[Fire Haired]

Both Celts and Etruscans were not Native,
one is mentioned to came with IE expansion, the other in 3 waves from 1500-1800 to 800 BC,

Etruscans came from minor-Asia/ Aegean to Italy, but nothing say they were dark skin,
only Black hair which is very common in Central Italy,
the myth for Romans gives 2 origins, '
1) the Luppa (Lukos In Greek, remember Lukka people)
2) the Troyans ( Virgil's Aineiad)

Sea peoples change a lot the face of Europe, and the way of war tactics,

It is not coincidence that Greek and Roman weapons show simmilarity same time, cause both are designed after sea peoples, in the lands were sea peoples settled.

Rome either Celtic either Not, learned (assimilated) a lot by sea peoples.

estrucan art





Yes their art shows them as brown skinned while there will sometimes be one white person. Probably a Celt or Italic.

[Nobody1]

I am not sure if you realise but these studies (among others) were all taken into account for mu U152/S28 map.

was addressed to zanipolo; something about a Barcelona-Venice range;
just wanted to throw East Tyrol in there as well; thats all;

[Nobody1]

from an old post:

Anthropologically the Etruscans are Dolichocphalic and closest to the Semitic Phoenicians [Pruner-Bey / Nicolucci]
Classification - Mediterranean and Medit./Orientalid [Caucasoid] sub-races

Historically the Etruscans are descended from the East Mediterranean
[Herodotus - Lydia / Dionysius - Thessaly]

Madison Grant - The Passing of the Great Race (1922)
-"The Umbrian state was afterward overwhelmed by the Tyrrhenians or Etruscans, who were of Mediterranean race and who, by 800 B.C. had extended their empire northward to the Alps and temporarily checked the advance of the Nordics."-

This can be considered a prove of inter-mixing with the Indo-European Umbrians
[Female Umbrian / Male Pelasgian Tyrsenoi]




This is another Etruscan fresco from [3rd cen BC] -Tarquinia;



pos. the Pelasgian Tyrsenoi did not migrate with a sufficient female population,
so they had to select amongst the pre-existing Indo-European Umbrians;

[zanipolo]

What do the Basques have anything to do with the Romans ? Actually the low percentage of U152 among the Basques and other Iberians is an additional proof that it was partly brought by the Romans, since the Basques and the peoples of eastern Iberia (from Catalonia to Andalusia) were not part of the Hallstatt or La Tène Celtic culture (the only other possible candidate who could have brought U152) but were part of the Roman Empire.

I don't often agree with you, but your comments here have made me loose all credibility that was left in you.



Then how do you explain that 22% of modern Ligurians belong to R1b-S116 and R1b-L21 ? That is the highest frequency in Italy.



By consensus do you mean speculation from outsiders to the project ?

Think what you like, but as per ancient DNA la Tene is not R1b
https://sites.google.com/site/haplog...ummary/la-tene

12 ancient dna from same area as la tene are I-L38, plus 1 R1b and 1 R1a


even Taranis mentioned it in March 2011

I2b2-L38 and La-Tene?

I found this paper that argues that the spread of I2b2-L38 is associated with the spread of La-Tene. Obviously, I2b2-L38 is rather rare, but I thought it was interesting because it's something that may allow us to actually map the La-Tene expansion.


also , The Romans still did not even penetrate north the PO river by the time La Tene ended. They still have not even faced hannibal.

- Destroying ones nationalistic bias teachings by someone always leads to comments like yours!

[Maciamo]

Think what you like, but as per ancient DNA la Tene is not R1b
https://sites.google.com/site/haplog...ummary/la-tene

12 ancient dna from same area as la tene are I-L38, plus 1 R1b and 1 R1a


even Taranis mentioned it in March 2011

I2b2-L38 and La-Tene?

I found this paper that argues that the spread of I2b2-L38 is associated with the spread of La-Tene. Obviously, I2b2-L38 is rather rare, but I thought it was interesting because it's something that may allow us to actually map the La-Tene expansion.


also , The Romans still did not even penetrate north the PO river by the time La Tene ended. They still have not even faced hannibal.

- Destroying ones nationalistic bias teachings by someone always leads to comments like yours!

Obviously there was some I2a2b (L38) among La Tène Celts. That's what I wrote on the I2 page. But that was a small minority of lineages compared to R1b. Are you really so simple minded that you can't imagine more than one haplogroup being associated with an ancient culture ? Do I have to spell everything out for you ? Unlike Fire Haired you don't have the excuse of being too young to have had time to learn.

[MOESAN]

interesting thread, with a lot of docs (drowning in some way)
I don't think Y-R1b-S152 is typical to only an ethny, I think it was linked more than less to western Hallstatt and then to La Tène - without very new very downstream SNPs we cannot go to deeply in details about these period when more or less akin male dominated tribes (Celts, Italics,Ligurians) interacted heavily in some parts of the world - I think R1b never was born in Iberia and for U152 his birthplace is evidently around western Alps (E-France, Switzerland, N-N-Italy, W-Austria) - Y-I2a1b as a whole was in N-Central Europe for a long time, maybe from mesolithic times, maybe after (someones as L38 are supposed by someones to be come from E-Carpathians-Moldovia...? without any proof I think some Y-I2a1b bearers were involved into early I-Ean moves (either as conquered involved autohtonous OR as part of conquerant newcomers); if they were NOT THE B.B. people, some of them could have been taken in NW-Rhine B.B. moves to Brittain and Ireland, (maybe someones in Scandinavia) and later in Wessex Culture and Tumuli Culture of W-Aremorica at Bronze Times - other of their brothers were surely involved too in Urnfields moves later yet: never as dominant component but as a minor one, I guess.
SO, coming back to the chief point of this thread, I think that IN ITALY: AND late Celts, AND Ligurians, AND Italics bore Y-R1b-IU152; difficult today to give every member his part of merit

by the way, the bearers of Ligurians languages were apparently I-Es and not autochtones and I don't see phonetically an evident RECENT link between the names Umbrians and Ambrones (magic linguistic?)

with humility
good afternoon

[MOESAN]

I recall an handfull (even two) of DNA samples cannot give us the answer concerning the genetical composition of a population- and what if the DNA pertains to family related members?

[ebAmerican]

How can you conceive that the migration of a single tribe of a few thousand men could have changed the genetic landscape of Rome, and indeed of all Italy ? If that was so easy, then what would be the impact of the 50 or so Roman colonies in and outside Italy, founded with in average from 5,000 to 10,000 Roman and Latin settlers ?

Why would the Senones have had more impact than the dozens of other Celtic and Italic tribes who settled in Italy ? You have to look at the big picture.

In my estimation, the parts of northern Italy where R1b-U152 is now between 40% and 50% would have between 20% and 30% without the Roman colonies.

However that does not mean that these frequencies are a reflection of the genetic make-up of Italy 2000 years ago. Many other people settled in Italy since then. The impact of Germanic tribes alone represents about 10% of modern Y-DNA lineages in Italy, and as much as 20% in northern Italy (7% of I1, 7% of R1b-U106, 4% of R1a and 2.5% of I2a2a). If you deduct these lineages and that of all the other migrants to Italy during the Roman Empire and Middle Ages (including the Byzantines), between a third and half of modern lineages were not present in northern Italy 2000 years ago. This means that wherever there is 40% of U152 today, there should have been between 60% and 80% at the time of Julius Caesar.

Not a single tribe but a large folk movement of hundreds of thousands descending from the La Tenne hot spot, pouring through the Alps and southern France. I wont take your condescending post personal. I respect your knowledge and effort you put into this site, but please learn a little forum etiquette. My initial thought was the large La Tenne migration that is recorded historically as well as archaeologically could have made the U152 footprint. If this is way off, then refute it like a scholar and not like a 3rd grader. I'm not a professional historian or geneticist. I'm a hobbyist interested in history. I enjoy the site very much, but don't enjoy the belittling. If you have any higher education, then you know there is no such thing as a stupid question.

[Nobody1]

by the way, the bearers of Ligurians languages were apparently I-Es and not autochtones and I don't see phonetically an evident RECENT link between the names Umbrians and Ambrones (magic linguistic?)

Is there really such a phonetical diff. between Ambronen and Umbronen? Ambri/Umbri - Umbro/Ambro ?

Between UMBRI and isOMBRI
or - cIMBRI / sYMBRI / sigAMBRI / AMBROnes

In the 19th century;
AMBRI/UMBRI (ambro/umbro) was connected to Gallic Amhra/Ambra = meaning Brave/Noble/Daring

This designation is found across the Indo-European (in Europe) realm; much like Veneti/Eneti;
I consider them of an archaic Indo-European branch; developing into the more distinct Indo-European branches;

I know Taranis has debunked it;
but cUMBRIA (cYMRU) and northUMBRIA - might also stem from this archaic Indo-European root;