Evidence that the ancient Romans spread R1b-U152 based on Roman colonies in Italy

[Maciamo]

I have updated my article on the Genetic History of Italy, adding a section arguing that the Romans were predominantly R1b-U152 (S28) based on the geographic distribution colonies founded by the Roman inside Italy. I have created a map showing the locations of Roman colonies and U152 frequencies.

[Fire Haired]

i think that is evidence but it could just be because of earlier Italic migrations

honestly i think Rome did not spread R1b U152 at least in non Italy areas. They defintley where primarily R1b U152 like modern central Italians but i dont think they spread it. I explain my argument here http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28810-Rome-spread-Middle-Eastern-and-North-African-Y-DNA

The Genetic history of Italy is long, descriptive, easy to understand, and really tells the full Y DNA backround of Italy. I like the zoom ins on Y DNA maps.

[ebAmerican]

Is it possible that Brennus and his Senones tribe resettled Rome bringing U152 around 400BC? Could the stories of Brennus' eventual defeat be more propaganda, then truth? Is it possible that the Senones were misrepresented, and they should have been called Ligureans (Ambrones)? The Ligurian language has strong Italic and Celtic influence. Latin was a Q-Italic language, and may be more associated with a Q-Celtic/Q-Italic Ligurian language. This is all speculation of course. I see U152 sweeping down from the Paris Basin and invading Southern France and Northern Italy. Just a thought.

[Nobody1]

Doubtful;

All Roman colonies were based on pre-existing settlements;


The scenario in the Po Valley for examples - where R1b-U152 is very dominant [32.2% (Boattini et al 2013)] - Had the Roman Colonies Placentia and Cremona -

and Strabo records the situation after the Roman conquest very detailed;

John Williams - The Life of Julius Cæsar (1854) (Strabo - quote)
That after the expulsion of the Boii and the extermination of the Gaesatae and Senones, there are left the Ligurian tribes and the Roman colonies; but mingled with the Romans are the Umbrian race, and, in some localities, the Tuscans. When the Romans became masters of the country, and settled colonies in many spots, they carefully preserved the remains of the original races; and now they are all Romans: nevertheless some settlements are still called both Tuscan and Umbrian, in the same manner as the Eneti-Ligurians and Insubrians still keep their ancient denominations


So the Roman Colonizers were
Umbrians - Romans - and in some localities Etruscans
with the original peoples (Bronze-age) Ligurians and (Bronz-age) Insubres Umbrians remaining
- but the (Iron-age) Gauls were exterminated;


Strabo - Book V
The Insubri still exist; their metropolis is Mediolanum, which formerly was a village, (for they all dwelt in villages,) but is now a considerable city, beyond the Po, and almost touching the Alps........in the same manner as the Eneti-Ligurians and Insubrians still keep their ancient denominations

---
Your theory might (at best/but doubtful) explain Italy;
but what about the Upper Rhine, Alsace-Lorraine, Switzerland (LaTene), Burgundy, Tyrol .... etc.etc.

A common archaic Indo-European (proto-Keltic/proto-Italic) root is more propbale;
as this common root is also manifested in the Language (Keltic/Italic);

[Fire Haired]

i dont think there is a reason to ague the romans where mainly R1b U152 if they where Italic then they where. We dont need to prove it with their settlements in Italy.

[Fire Haired]

Is it possible that Brennus and his Senones tribe resettled Rome bringing U152 around 400BC? Could the stories of Brennus' eventual defeat be more propaganda, then truth? Is it possible that the Senones were misrepresented, and they should have been called Ligureans (Ambrones)? The Ligurian language has strong Italic and Celtic influence. Latin was a Q-Italic language, and may be more associated with a Q-Celtic/Q-Italic Ligurian language. This is all speculation of course. I see U152 sweeping down from the Paris Basin and invading Southern France and Northern Italy. Just a thought.

Brennus was not the first Celt in Italy his ancestors did kind off the same thing all the way back in 600bc. We already know where Celtic territory in Italy was and it was a skiny spot in northeast Italy.


Brennus was a Hallstate/La Tene Gaul. His culture came from the same father culture as Villnoaven Italic both come from Urnfield culture in the alps 3,200ybp. Brennus people would have had just as much R1b S28/U152 as Italics but they defintley are not the reason why it is most popular in Italy. The reason is both come from the same ancestor culture. R1b S28/U152 is the beast Iron age warrior marker. It started to spread around the alps in the late bronze age 3,200ybp from Urenfield culture. Some spoke a Italic language some spoke a Celtic language. The Urnfield descendants that spread into Italy 3,200ybp and formed Villnoaven culture and the Hallstat culture both had Iron weapons. This gave them a huge advantage over other people so they where able to conquer pretty much all of western Europe from 3,200-2,500ybp and alot of eastern Europe from 2,500-2,200ybp they even got to Turkey.

Celtic iron long sword

[zanipolo]

I have updated my article on the Genetic History of Italy, adding a section arguing that the Romans were predominantly R1b-U152 (S28) based on the geographic distribution colonies founded by the Roman inside Italy. I have created a map showing the locations of Roman colonies and U152 frequencies.

wow, u put it out there. I see 1% chance of R1b-U152 being Roman due to this paper


Begoña Martínez Cruz, Evidence of pre-Roman tribal genetic structure in Basques from uniparentally inherited markers

which states 2 groups of R1b , a South and North..........south below

• R1b-S-2 (Z196), which includes:
  
  • R1b-S-2a (M153): Basques and Gascons almost exclusively
  • R1b-S-2b (L176.2/S179.2): Gascons and Catalans specially, but more widespread
  
  
• R1b-S-3 (S28/U152): Not too frequent but neither rare either among Basques and Gascons (more common in Pyrenean Navarre, Catalonia) but widespread through mainland Europe, specially Italy .
• R1b-S-4 (L21/M529/S145, L459): Often known as the Irish clade, is not restricted to Ireland at all but does have a mostly Atlantic distribution (West France, England...).

R1b-S is original from the Franco-Cantabrian region, while R1b-N would be from Doggerland (now under the North Sea), Flanders.

U-152 became the gallic-ligurian marker , from modern Barcelona to Venice

The Roman DNA project started in late 2011 of which 20 skeletons are being analysied has stil not given any news, but the consenus is that it is basically J2 and E haplotypes

[Nobody1]

Go to - History & Civilisations > Who were the Sabines?
All you need to know about 600BC Bellovesus migration; its a fable;

The first substantial emergence of Indo-European Italics (Umbrians) was ~1500 BC Terremare culture - Po Valley;

Paul MacKendrick - The Mute Stones Speak (1962)
The terremare are important: they preserve the memory of an immigrant population, distinct in culture from the aborigines. The distinguishing marks of this new culture are knowledge of metal-working, a pottery identifiable by its exaggerated half-moon handles, and the practice of cremation rather than inhumation. On the evidence, we must suppose that this new culture emerged about 1500 B.C. as a fusion of indigenous hut-dwellers and immigrant lakedwellers. Bronze (Horse) bits found in their settlements show that they had domesticated the horse, and there is some evidence, outside the terremare, for dogs as well, described by Randall-Maclver as "doubtless good woolly animals of a fair size."


Italic language tree


Umbrian -
http://www.ancientscripts.com/umbrian.html




Stele of Bormio [4th cen BC] - Bormio, North Italy - Lombardy (Raetic warriors)


---


Within the Indo-European realm; the Umbrians and Kelts share a common (proto) root;
which is attested by the Linguistic links and Historical refs.


Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from Caius Sempronius (De Divis. Ital.,);
"The portion of the Apennines from the sources of the Tiber to the Nar, the Umbri inhabit, the oldest stock of the Old Gael, (Veteres Galli), as Augustus writes."
[Apenninum colunt Ligures, portionem vero Apennini inhabitant Umbri, prima veterum Gallorum proies, ut Augustus scribit.]


James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
Solinus informs us that Bocchus, a writer who has been several times cited by Pliny, reported the Umbri to have been descended from the ancient Gauls; and a similar account of their origin has been adopted, either from the same or from different testimony, by Servius, Isidore, and other writers of a late period.
[Bocchus (affranchi lettre de Sylla) absolvit Gallorum veterum propaginem Umbros esse]
[Umbri, Italiae gens est, sed Gallorum veterum propago]


Guy Bradley - Ancient Umbria (2000) [Oxford Uni. Press]
There is an interesting tradition that the name of the Umbrians came from their survival of a mythical flood: see Pliny, NH 3. 112. This tradition could go back at least to Marcus Antonius (Gnipho) in early 1st cent. BC. See Servius, Aen. 12. 753: sane Umbros Gallorum veterum propaginem esse Marcus Antonius refert: hos eosdem, quod tempore aquosae cladis imbribus superfuerunt Ombrous ἡ Ὀμβρική / Ὀμβρικός cognominatos. "Indeed Marcus Antonius reports that the Umbrians are an offspring of the ancient Gauls; and that this same people, because they survived the rains in a time of watery disaster, were called the Ombroi' "


The Umbrians [Terremare-Urnfield(Villanova/Golasecca)] were more akin to the proto-Kelts [Tumulus-Urnfield] than to the proper Kelts [Hallstatt-LaTene].
But common links remained;


Luke Owen Pike - The English and their Origin (1866)
If now we consult the Umbrian language with a view of discovering whether it approaches more nearly the Gaelic or the Cymric type, we find, scanty though the evidence may be, that Umbrian differs from Latin in precisely the same manner in which Cymric and Greek differ from Latin. The Latin qu becomes, in Umbrian as in Welsh and Greek, p: e.g. Latin quatuor, Umbrian petur, Welsh pedwar. The Welsh uch, uchel, appears as the Umbrian ucar, the Greek aixpog; the Welsh hwra as the Umbrian hri, the Greek aipsco;

[Fire Haired]

those raetic earriors look suprisgly Celtic. One is blowing a horn Celts always did that. The other is wearing horned helmet(dont get conused witth Vikings) Romans say Brennus army wore horned helmets this was in 390bc.
Gaul warrior tstaue from north Italy with a horned helmet


also its shield is just like Celtic shields


So in my opinion these where either Gauls, Raetic warriors copying Gauls, or Raetics where Gauls. Something extremely Gaulic is happening in those carvings. My guess is they where Italics who where not as influnced by Greece as Rome was and because of that they kept a traditional Italic culture which was the brother to Hallstatt Gaulic culture. They also probably had Gaulic influnce

[Nobody1]

U-152 became the gallic-ligurian marker , from modern Barcelona to Venice

Doesnt stop at Venice;

---

East Tyrol = 12.5% R1b-U152 [270 samples]

Niederstätter et al 2012
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e.0041885.s013


Venetian area = 19.2% R1b-U152 - Boattini et al 2013 [73 samples]
Lombardy/Piedmont/Liguria = 32.2% R1b-U152 - Boattini et al 2013 [161 samples]

Boattini et al 2013 -
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441

[Nobody1]

So in my opinion these where either Gauls, Raetic warriors copying Gauls, or Raetics where Gauls. Something extremely Gaulic is happening in those carvings. My guess is they where Italics who where not as influnced by Greece as Rome was and because of that they kept a traditional Italic culture which was the brother to Hallstatt Gaulic culture. They also probably had Gaulic influnce

Well than feast your eyes on this:




The Umbrian Insubres - Golasecca culture was in strong contact with Keltic Hallstatt;
Both being part (Hallstatt A-B & Golasecca I) of the
Indo-European Bronze-age Urnfield culture complex;
With Umbrians and proto-Kelts sharing a common root - to begin with;


Warrior tomb - Golasecca culture / Sesto-Calende, Lombardy - 7th cen BC



The Lepontic language is associated with the Golasecca culture
http://www.ancient-celts.com/LanguagesLepontic.html



John T. Koch - The Celts: History, Life, and Culture (2012)
The area occupied by the Golasecca culture is roughly consistent with the Celtic peoples of the Insubres, Oromobii, and Lepontii mentioned in classical literature.


Insubres and the Golasecca-culture area

[zanipolo]

wow, u put it out there. I see 1% chance of R1b-U152 being Roman due to this paper


Begoña Martínez Cruz, Evidence of pre-Roman tribal genetic structure in Basques from uniparentally inherited markers

which states 2 groups of R1b , a South and North..........south below

• R1b-S-2 (Z196), which includes:
  
  • R1b-S-2a (M153): Basques and Gascons almost exclusively
  • R1b-S-2b (L176.2/S179.2): Gascons and Catalans specially, but more widespread
  
  
• R1b-S-3 (S28/U152): Not too frequent but neither rare either among Basques and Gascons (more common in Pyrenean Navarre, Catalonia) but widespread through mainland Europe, specially Italy .
• R1b-S-4 (L21/M529/S145, L459): Often known as the Irish clade, is not restricted to Ireland at all but does have a mostly Atlantic distribution (West France, England...).

R1b-S is original from the Franco-Cantabrian region, while R1b-N would be from Doggerland (now under the North Sea), Flanders.

U-152 became the gallic-ligurian marker , from modern Barcelona to Venice

The Roman DNA project started in late 2011 of which 20 skeletons are being analysied has stil not given any news, but the consenus is that it is basically J2 and E haplotypes

and

Ancient Roman is not fully Villanovan culture like the etruscans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latial_culture

[zanipolo]

Doesnt stop at Venice;

---

East Tyrol = 12.5% R1b-U152 [270 samples]

Niederstätter et al 2012
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e.0041885.s013


Venetian area = 19.2% R1b-U152 - Boattini et al 2013 [73 samples]
Lombardy/Piedmont/Liguria = 32.2% R1b-U152 - Boattini et al 2013 [161 samples]

Boattini et al 2013 -
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441

I am talking about bronze-age and yes I know there was no venice in the bronze-age, so julian alps would be what I refferred to
Istria, islands of friuli and dalmatian has castellani culture which was bronze-age mycenean

[Yetos]

those raetic earriors look suprisgly Celtic. One is blowing a horn Celts always did that. The other is wearing horned helmet(dont get conused witth Vikings) Romans say Brennus army wore horned helmets this was in 390bc.
Gaul warrior tstaue from north Italy with a horned helmet


also its shield is just like Celtic shields


So in my opinion these where either Gauls, Raetic warriors copying Gauls, or Raetics where Gauls. Something extremely Gaulic is happening in those carvings. My guess is they where Italics who where not as influnced by Greece as Rome was and because of that they kept a traditional Italic culture which was the brother to Hallstatt Gaulic culture. They also probably had Gaulic influnce

Sea peoples also,





a Typical Terresh (Thyrrsenian?)



Sea people also were helmets with 2 horns, (allien radio antennas ) and use Horne at battle, and although they were shaved, they leave a long moustache.
Sea people are connected with Thyrrenians.

there are many strange in fashion of ancients,
For example Makedoians used σκιαδιον a hat like French Berret,
and a helmet simmilar to Brygians which later gauls and Francais took it (use it),
and their system to stabilize helmet in Head was adopted by Romans.
but Makedonians were either all face shaved, either all face with a beard, never a moustache.


Big Horn shape trompets were also used by Persians.


remember Sardenia in IE Greek was Ιχθουσα-Ιχνουσα Ichthusa-Ichnusa (Fish land) and named Sardenia after Sherdana people



the bellow photo is a typical Peleset




you can see from where the IE adopted the 'feathers' in helmet as an officer mark.


As you see the 2 horn helmet was primary used by Thyrsenians, much before Celts and Vikings

The IE helmets until the times after Troyan war were made by wool and bones, so to crush and absorve the energy.



Typical Mycenean/Greek before sea peoples

[Nobody1]

Sea peoples also,



Sea people also were helmets with 2 horns, (allien radio antennas ) and use Horne at battle, and although they were saved, they leave a long moustache.
Sea people are connected with Thyrrenians.

there are many strange in fashion of anccients,
For example Makedoians used σκιαδιον a hat like French Berret,
and a helmet simmilar to Brygians which later gauls and Francais took it (use it),
and their system to stabilize helmet in Head was adopted by Romans.
but Makedonians were either all face saved, either all face with a beard, never a moustache.


Big Horn shape trompets were also used by Persians.

Isnt there also a famous Greek helmet type - with Bronze horns;
Doric or Ionian / im not sure; if i find it i will post;

Found it -
Achaean helmets [CORINTHIAN TYPE] - Magna Graecia

[Fire Haired]

the shield is a dead give away. From what i know no one in the meditreaen Civilized world had shields like Celts and Germans. Also the design in the shield was just like what Celts used. also celts almost always used big truphets in battle. i know many people used trumphets and horned helmets but when u did that to the shield and the fact Celts had contact in that area from 3,000-2,00ybp there is a very good chance they got those weapons from celts. or some how are related.

[Fire Haired]

Well than feast your eyes on this:




The Umbrian Insubres - Golasecca culture was in strong contact with Keltic Hallstatt;
Both being part (Hallstatt A-B & Golasecca I) of the
Indo-European Bronze-age Urnfield culture complex;
With Umbrians and proto-Kelts sharing a common root - to begin with;


Warrior tomb - Golasecca culture / Sesto-Calende, Lombardy - 7th cen BC



The Lepontic language is associated with the Golasecca culture
http://www.ancient-celts.com/LanguagesLepontic.html



John T. Koch - The Celts: History, Life, and Culture (2012)
The area occupied by the Golasecca culture is roughly consistent with the Celtic peoples of the Insubres, Oromobii, and Lepontii mentioned in classical literature.


Insubres and the Golasecca-culture area

u know what that means lugarians where probably italic. Hallstatt Celtic culture and villnoavean italic culture came from the same root late bronze age urnfield culture 3,200ybp. R1b U152 is centered in northern Italy and areas Villnoeven culture existed. Also liguraia today is apart of the center area of r1b s28 they have 30-40%. I am very sure they where Italic anyone who was not italic in italy 2,500-2,000ybp was a invader like estrucans i know italics dominated because how r1b s28 is in italy.

[Fire Haired]

Nobody 1 the ligurain swords shock me. they have the same curve at the bottom of the handle which was the signature of celtic swords

for example this 3,000 year old early hallstate celtic bronze sword. this was just 200 years italic cultures split from celtic cultures and migrated to italy. so italics defintley had similar swords


ligurian swords it possibly is a italic verson that descends from the same words types as what Hallstatt Celts had. all swords at this time had the same basic build even the ones in china but that curve to me mkes them seem related.

[Yetos]

Isnt there also a famous Greek helmet type - with Bronze horns;
Doric or Ionian / im not sure; if i find it i will post;

Found it -
Achaean helmets [CORINTHIAN TYPE] - Magna Graecia

typical hel;met of IE before sea peoples.




it is made by bones sewed above wool.


link with Greek ministry of culture

http://odysseus.culture.gr/h/4/gh430.jsp?obj_id=4654



the helmet is wool inside, above is 3 leafs of leather, and above is wild boar teeth.

[Yetos]

the shield is a dead give away. From what i know no one in the meditreaen Civilized world had shields like Celts and Germans. Also the design in the shield was just like what Celts used. also celts almost always used big truphets in battle. i know many people used trumphets and horned helmets but when u did that to the shield and the fact Celts had contact in that area from 3,000-2,00ybp there is a very good chance they got those weapons from celts. or some how are related.

No way,

there is no evidence of horn helmets in Euroep before sea peoples,

only that of Mycenean which helmet was made by leather.


that existed in Europe before sea peoples, the IEans






these bellow are after sea peoples and early iron age.






All Germans and Celts and Greeks took (adopted or copy) 2 horn helmet, and straw/feathers helmets by sea peoples.

[Yetos]

Isnt there also a famous Greek helmet type - with Bronze horns;
Doric or Ionian / im not sure; if i find it i will post;

Found it -
Achaean helmets [CORINTHIAN TYPE] - Magna Graecia

Yes but Magna Grecia was colonised by Greeks centuries after the sea peoples raids in Aegean.

and connection of Thyrrenians with Aegean is accepted by all today

[Nobody1]

Yes but Magna Grecia was colonised by Greeks centuries after the sea peoples raids in Aegean.

and connection of Thyrrenians with Aegean is accepted by all today

The Sea-Peoples are also heavily linked with Sardinia [Sherden];

Bronze-age Sardinian warriors / Sardinia - Nuragic Civilization
(note the horned helmets)



- very kick-ass horns


There are plenty more of such warrior-figures of Bronze-age Sardinia (Nuragic);


So the question remains:
Are the Bronze-age Sardinians the true identity of the mysterious Sea-People?

[Yetos]

Celtic weapon (sword)





Etruscan swords







Villanovan sword




Gladius




I do not know about the mettalurgy or special archaiology,
but at least in shape and form, the swords found in Nuragic civilizations seems to use 2 techniques,
1) Villanovan uses 3 nails, 1 in wrisk and 2 above
2) nuragic/etruscan anters a pocket (one body)
but both five almost same shape,


while Celtic of that time is far away since we see no usage either of one body either of 3 nails.

But in Gladius we see a blade simmilar to villanovan but in shape of celtic one inside a pocket for hand.


so the case of Raeti (if Etruscans) and Rome is little bit strange, since they might have exchange of culture among non IE and celts of Alps, and Celts with Rome

[Yetos]

The Sea-Peoples are also heavily linked with Sardinia [Sherden];

Bronze-age Sardinian warriors / Sardinia - Nuragic Civilization
(note the horned helmets)





There are plenty more of such warrior-figures of Bronze-age Sardinia (Nuragic);


So the question remains:
Are the Bronze-age Sardinians the true identity of the mysterious Sea-People?

I told you
Sherdana and Terresh in Egyptian memmories of sea peoples raids were horn helmets,

even after troyan wars in Aegean we see no horn helmets,
but we see them after sea people raids,

yet Ichnussa with Sardenia is surrely different.

the only problem is that Etruscans came from minor Asia were also sea peoples with name Lukka and Karinka could exist,
but Turresh seems to be thee ones who devastate next to Shardenia,

Personally I doubt that Fallisti were IE. I have my argue about Peleset and Fallisti being same, yet can not prove it, so i accept the most of academic believes.

I believe that Central Italy developed its own culture away from Latenne/Hallstatt, but in neighboring with it.
it is not coinsidence that Latin have word aqua which compines with Greek ωκεανος but not found in any other IE, but found as aqwa, aswuan, su in non IE populations !!!! wonder why?

[Fire Haired]

Yetos u do know there is a 3,000 year old Celtic sword that has that exact design the Estriucan one does. The entire Celtic world even Insular Celts in Britain had that styleof handle. Also Celts dominated Estrucans in war Estrucans knew celts very well. celts conquered half of Etruscan territory in northern Italy. U can defintley give an explanation that Estrucans copied Celtic swords. Celts where great metal workers the Roman gladus their offical sword was made by celt Iberians. Romans chain mail was invented by i think Italian Hallstatt/ La Tene Celts or Hallstatt/ La tene celts in the alps. The helmet Romans centurions used was created by Hallstat/La tene celts in the alps.

If the Romans liked Celtic made weapons so much it would not be a surprise Estrucans did too. Also i just want to say Estrucans where almost defitley not native to Italy or Europe. Their paintgs are brown skinned while Romans where white and roman writers say Celts where even whiter. The estucans have been traced back to Turkey by some historians. I dont know hwy people in modern day tuscany are not brown skinned like estrucans or why they have about 40% Italic R1b S28. Estrucans i think are predicted to have arrived in Italy 3,500-3,00ybp so Italics may have already been settled in that area Estrucans dominated early Italic tribes. They may have been the ones who brought Civilization and greek like culture to Italy well i guess greeks also played a big role.

I know it is kind off weird there are these mysterious people groups that lived around Italy and the alps before the Roman empire. Where they Celtic, Italic, Illyrian, Non Indo European what the heck where they. Possibly they where people who still spoke Pre Italic language in Italy. But since R1b S28 is so dominate in those areas i think the where Italics. the Italic language began around Austria so why couldent there still be Italic speakers in austira and the alps before the Roman empire. They probably where not Hallstat/ La tene Celtic because those Celts had such a distinct culture. They probably had a related culture because they where Italics.