European Citizens' Initiative

LeBrok said:
Why would they want to destroy me?!
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you can find many reasons,


But why you are not answering about McCarthy?
are you afraid of net bots?

can tell us your opinion about?
 
LeBrok said:
Why would they want to destroy me?!
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That is exactly the point i wanted to show you. Maybe at this point of time they dont want to destroy you, but all the collected and analysed data of you could be used against you in the future. Especially political groups can be victims of this surveillance. 50 years ago the government had no chance to get information about the political opinion of nearly every citizen. Today they have it. Maybe they dont use it at this point of time, but can you tell the future?

Security through surveillance is not a strong argument. Through 100% Surveillance you would almost get 100% Security (like when every person would be watched by a governments agent) but its about the balance. You simply cant collect all data about every person without an suspicion. Thats why in most countrys of the world (not the USA since the patriot act) telefon surveillance has to be granted by a judge in every single case.

And to state it out again - This complete and unlimited surveillance is clearly against the right. I know you guys overseas have traded in most civil rights after 9/11 for "Security". But here in the European Union there is even a Fundamental Right in Datasecurity (means noone is allowed to obtain all your data without permission) in Artikel 16 AEUV. And as a law student i can tell you in Germany this kind of surveillance breaks not only this law.
- First of all its against our first fundamental right, the "human dignity" - means, that no person can be handled as an objekt, but this is what they are doing, when they collect all your data and store it (this is what our highest court says).
- Second its against our fundamental right of "free expression". Maybe you this may sound paradox to you guys overseas, but if all your data gets collected and all your political statements you make online get collected many people are scared to even make political statements (again this is exactly what our highest court states out).

The claim is to only monitor people who are suspicious in some way. There can be no general suspicion.
Yes and even without this kind of total surveillance terror acts have been prevented in the past. Even 9/11 could have been prevented - its clear that your secret services had hints about it.

In the last 10 years the died more people of getting slayn by downfalling televisions then by terrorists, but yes "Terrorism" is the biggest danger of human history. (Ask your government).

Just create fear and all the people will trade in their fundamental rights for "security".
This is the beginning my friend.

This Surveillance is not comparative
 
LeBrok said:
question is why wouldn't we allow automatic computer bots to check the internet to keep us safe from bad guys?
With billions of emails every day, billions twitters and Facebooks, billions phone calls, billions posted messages, all together around 100 billion a day! Assuming that there is probably around 10 thousand agents checking this stuff out that's 10 million communicates to check per agent daily. It's obvious that without internet bots they would never catch a terrorist in this jungle.
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That's probably because catching tourists is not the actual goal but rather categorization of all humans into asset values, where evaluation is a more long-term task. To support this new industry the german government (and many others except France) introduced electronic ID-cards in 2008. Very few people truly understand what is already possible. Read about Big Data. The actual news is that silicon valley companies like google were lying.
 
peitho said:
That is exactly the point i wanted to show you. Maybe at this point of time they dont want to destroy you, but all the collected and analysed data of you could be used against you in the future. Especially political groups can be victims of this surveillance. 50 years ago the government had no chance to get information about the political opinion of nearly every citizen. Today they have it. Maybe they dont use it at this point of time, but can you tell the future?...
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EXACTLY. Now LeBrok, I wasn't comfortable bringing it up but since you did first-- I will respond. We are all products of our varying environments to some degree. Your native country had serious issues of governmental abuses to be sure, however I think you are now overacting in the opposite direction. You think that by bowing deeply to your governmental agencies you will gain points or at least be left alone. Sorry to say, this isn't how it works. I am a product of what used to be the "most free" nation on the planet. It no longer is and hasn't been for some time. I can tell you what freedom looks like, and this ain't it.
 
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And you asked what freedoms have been lost. I look to the U.S. Constitution and our Bill of Rights for guidance here. I deal in rights rather than freedoms because a right is more concrete. Snowden proved a violation of probably the most basic right American citizens once had... the Right to Privacy. If you can't see this, I not sure you will understand anything else I say.
 
LeBrok said:
Yes I can, because governments in democratic countries and their representatives were elected by majority of people. Therefore if government colects data on citizens it is by agreement of most citizens.
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Sorry LeBrok, but it might be an illusion:

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/07/money-nsa-vote/

"Lawmakers Who Upheld NSA Phone Spying Received Double the Defense Industry Cash"

But I admit, the US Lawmakers are probably more expensive than our EU lawmakers.
 
So please if anyone here feels the same and lives an another EU-Country PM me so we can get this thing started!

We still need 5 people from different EU Countrys
 
peitho said:
So please if anyone here feels the same and lives an another EU-Country PM me so we can get this thing started!

We still need 5 people from different EU Countrys
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But it means you will collect data on them!
Watch out guys, they might be from government or business, and will destroy you! The FBI is fishing.
 
ElHorsto said:
That's probably because catching tourists is not the actual goal but rather categorization of all humans into asset values, where evaluation is a more long-term task. To support this new industry the german government (and many others except France) introduced electronic ID-cards in 2008. Very few people truly understand what is already possible. Read about Big Data. The actual news is that silicon valley companies like google were lying.
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I agree, they collect and don't say anything because people are uneasy about this or wouldn't agree if they new.
I'm just not convinced that there will be a negative consequence for me from data collection.
 
LeBrok said:
But it means you will collect data on them!
Watch out guys, they might be from government or business, and will destroy you! The FBI is fishing.
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Is this the way you lead a discussion?

I just want one reason why they want to destroy me.
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I tell you again: Ethnology, Political Opinions,
Political Statements,
Personal Relations or any other connections to People with certain political opinions,
Personal Relations or any other connections to People with personal relations or any other connections to People with special political opinions.

Let me add: Taking part on Demonstrations aginst the Government, releasing Press-articles against the Government, Expressing your personal opinion.

And then they go back in time and they will find something that can harm you.

Or are you the sort of guy "who has nothing to hide"?
Its like in the Bible where Jesus says "the one of you who is without sin should throw the first stone".
Everyone has something to hide and everyone has something that can be used against him. And there will always be people that make the government angry.

But maybe are you just too boring, so that Government will never want to harm you in any case.
No political opinion or even a "fallower" - YES, that are the people your government loves.
 
hope said:
Why don`t they just make something up? It would be cheaper and less time consuming.
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No it isn't... You already have all this data collected which they use to classify people.
Im not telling you, that our governments is already using this data.
What i say is that all this data is a huge lure for the abuse of power in the future.

Its not a secret that they already put journalists and p.e. nature activists on "Risk-lists"...
 
peitho said:
No it isn't... You already have all this data collected which they use to classify people.
Im not telling you, that our governments is already using this data.
What i say is that all this data is a huge lure for the abuse of power in the future.

Its not a secret that they already put journalists and p.e. nature activists on "Risk-lists"...
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I agree with you, they do already have a lot of data. This type of thing has probably been going on for a while, it is not new I think. The ways in which it is obtained, due to our modern technology, may be new, but the practice is I feel, not.
May I ask a straight question, and excuse me if it sounds naive, perhaps I am looking at this in a skewif way, but what exactly do you, in all reality, think they intend to do with this information?
As you say, you are not saying your government is using this information,. If we agree it is nothing new in itself, then why might we suppose they will ever use it?


Also, welcome to Eupedia.
 
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LeBrok said:
I just want one reason why they want to destroy me.
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why in your ex-country they forbid you free speach?


for the same reason.

in Poland few decades before, free speach and some unions like solidarity were forbiden. why?

why in Poland they wanted to destroy you?

give us a reason?

the same reason is also in the other side.

McCarthism is not forbiding, is searching for 'witches'
 
hope said:
I agree with you, they do already have a lot of data. This type of thing has probably been going on for a while, it is not new I think. The ways in which it is obtained, due to our modern technology, may be new, but the practice is I feel, not.
May I ask a straight question, and excuse me if it sounds naive, perhaps I am looking at this in a skewif way, but what exactly do you, in all reality, think they intend to do with this information?
As you say, you are not saying your government is using this information,. If we agree it is nothing new in itself, then why might we suppose they will ever use it?


Also, welcome to Eupedia.
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You are right, governments were always busy obtaining data. Not only because data means power but also order.
At the moment they really may use the data for "our security" but its really dangerous for us that they have this data.
You know its in the human nature to do everything what is possible.
Its like nuclear power - it can be good for creating electricity but it was always clear that humans will use this technology to harm each other.
The data may be the key to security but it is also the key to oppression.
Who tells you that there wont be a Regime which uses the data against you?

You can see it mathematical: There is a certain likelihood that a regime will use this data for oppression in the future. This likelihood may be small at the moment, but over a longer time it will get bigger. And if you set the time=infinite the likelihood is 100%.

Im not against collecting data, im not against surveillance.
Im only against a general suspicion of every citizen. As is stated out before, this is not comparative

Thank you for welcoming me to the Eupedia ; )
 
hope said:
Why don`t they just make something up? It would be cheaper and less time consuming.
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What a brilliant response hope! That's exactly what happened during Stalinism. Most people who died were good citizens and many even dedicated communists.

I don't think we are going to escape data collecting or rampant surveillance. The only hope for us is to make sure we select good leaders who secure our freedoms and rights. Otherwise we are doomed.
 
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Yetos said:
why in your ex-country they forbid you free speach?


for the same reason.
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I know why communist regime wanted to destroy me. But we live in western capitalist world now, you and I.
Government and big business likes what I say, right?
So again, what is the reason they will destroy me?
 
Nobody is going to destroy you anytime soon Lebrok. Big government/corporate elites may require you to serve them pitchers of lemonade or mow their enormous lawns (or more likely have your children fight their silly wars), but they won't come after you. You speak like someone who is intent not only staying low on the radar, but really almost like an eager servant. So they won't be coming after you. Not on this round anyway. :)
 
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