European Citizens' Initiative

[LeBrok]

You are right, governments were always busy obtaining data. Not only because data means power but also order.
At the moment they really may use the data for "our security" but its really dangerous for us that they have this data.

It's dangerous if they do and dangerous if they don't.
Big new today. 105 kids rescued from prostitution in US today, thanks to FBI.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...-free-105-child-prostitutes-article-1.1411601
Do you think it would be possible without data collection?

You know its in the human nature to do everything what is possible.

We also have huge inclination to do the impossible. People fly now, go to moon, people record everything with their phones, and maybe in future people will make peace on Earth. I think it is getting better than used to be, even much better. There is no international war right now. Not many ongoing revolutions, civil wars, if any. Also there are fewer dictators these days when compared to 20 years ago, which wasn't a long time. If this trend continue, one more generation or two and it might be really peaceful.

Its like nuclear power - it can be good for creating electricity but it was always clear that humans will use this technology to harm each other.

Great analogy. Do you think we should give up nuclear power, cars, knifes because they can potentially harm people in the future?

The data may be the key to security but it is also the key to oppression.
Who tells you that there wont be a Regime which uses the data against you?

Absolutely right. Our priority should be to make sure our political and judicial system is in good health. That on top of these vital systems are the smartest and most honest people of us all. This will take care of the rest of problems.
Because if there is dictatorship, no amount of data or lack of it is going to make any difference. They will invent data like Stalin, or Khmer Rouge, or they will quickly implement system (E.German Stasi), very invasive system, and nobody won't dare to say anything against.

You can see it mathematical: There is a certain likelihood that a regime will use this data for oppression in the future. This likelihood may be small at the moment, but over a longer time it will get bigger. And if you set the time=infinite the likelihood is 100%.

Not really. Dictatorships only exist in countries stricken by poverty and big political mess. As long as west is prosperous there will be no dictatorship and controlling of society. Look at china opening and becoming more liberal together with economic growth. I predict that in 10 years comunist of china will give up the power.

Im not against collecting data, im not against surveillance.
Im only against a general suspicion of every citizen. As is stated out before, this is not comparative

That's why I think your position is overblown, but it's my point, I was always optimistic.
Having said that I believe there might be something good coming from your initiative. Maybe it is time to swing pendulum the other way.

But maybe are you just too boring, so that Government will never want to harm you in any case.
No political opinion or even a "fallower" - YES, that are the people your government loves

You almost guest well. I escaped from dictatorship country some time ago. I've chosen Canada as I fit this society very well. Here I don't need to fight for freedom of speech, democracy or good economic system. I guess, here I'm boring, lol.
But my history gives me a unique position, not to say privileged, to talk about freedoms or lack of them. I experienced both first hand.

On ending note, I wish you luck with your venture, although no amount of data or destroying it will protect us from dictatorship. Your initiative might save few soles, granted, or give people some privacy. Rather, I would love to see initiative to update our "ancient" political partizan system to implement new changes. Changes that will make sure that we always pick the smartest and most honest people to governments. That we are always led by best talent available. This and only this will assure our freedoms and prosperity.
You can call it utopian view, but think how many "impossible" things humankind achieved already.

 

[LeBrok]

Nobody is going to destroy you anytime soon Lebrok. Big government/corporate elites may require you to serve them pitchers of lemonade or mow their enormous lawns (or more likely have your children fight their silly wars), but they won't come after you. You speak like someone who is intent not only staying low on the radar, but really almost like an eager servant. So they won't be coming after you. Not on this round anyway.

Yes they love me for my big loans. I was only arguing with Yetos against his generalizations and throwing everybody to the same bag.

PS. But I'm also grateful for these loans (available capital) to grow business and having a nice house. I like this system. It just needs to be polished from time to time, and call exterminator to remove really greedy elements. But these usually fall off by themselves, as self destructive.

 

[nordicwarrior]

I can't think of a reason why "they" would love me, but I figure they respect me (grudgingly) for my big mouth. But you're correct, available capital/credit is an incredibly valuable tool for a successful nation. Canada has faired well during this downturn because of it's abundant natural resources and by having an commodity based economy. Not so much in the U.S though. Our greedy hogs at the top ate too much, then took a collective poop into the remaining financial pie. You can get available credit here, but at rates that qualify as usury.

 

[Yetos]

I know why communist regime wanted to destroy me. But we live in western capitalist world now, you and I.
Government and big business likes what I say, right?
So again, what is the reason they will destroy me?

for the same reason.

told you.

the difference in thinking is big,

modern Europe was build in the principals of Free speech, starting from 1400 till today.

if no free speach, still Bishops and knights rule the people.
Gun time in Europe is over much before WW1,

In America every body has a gun, to expess his freedom.

the difference in Thinking is obvious,

 

[ElHorsto]

Why don`t they just make something up? It would be cheaper and less time consuming.

The question makes no sense at all. Of course they would need the real data first to know whom to address at all. What's the point of making up something against a random person?

 

[ElHorsto]

Government and big business likes what I say, right?
So again, what is the reason they will destroy me?

That's exactly the point. In order to answer both questions you need to disclose to us all your and your family's and friend's phone and internet activities. I hope you and your family is healthy and unsuspicious and never researched hot topics or diseases. Are you critical journalist? Then it will be increasingly difficult to find a job or insurance, your or your family's life might end up destroyed even without direct involvement of corrupt government. There was a reason why privacy was once protected in democracies. There are still laws today. But I understood, laws are obstacles for progress.

 

[peitho]

The question makes no sense at all. Of course they would need the real data first to know whom to address at all. What's the point of making up something against a random person?

Exactly. When they already have the data of course its cheaper the use this against people. And its "waterproof".

 

[peitho]

That's exactly the point. In order to answer both questions you need to disclose to us all your and your family's and friend's phone and internet activities. I hope you and your family is healthy and unsuspicious and never researched hot topics or diseases. Are you critical journalist? Then it will be increasingly difficult to find a job or insurance, your or your family's life might end up destroyed even without direct involvement of corrupt government. There was a reason why privacy was once protected in democracies. There are still laws today. But I understood, laws are obstacles for progress.

Edward snowden pointed out that only in USA Millions of people are on that "List of Persons who are a potentioal Threat"

 

[nordicwarrior]

There's a video on youtube (and surely other sites) that almost perfectly encapsulates this topic. I can't provide the link, but type in "soccer fans security guards". The scenario is one that very much scares the world elites-- when the people-start-figuring-it-out. There's far more of us than there are of them. When the rich and powerful are cognizant of this number differential, hopefully their actions and intentions will reflect the situation.

 

[ElHorsto]

Exactly. When they already have the data of course its cheaper the use this against people. And its "waterproof".

Yes, but I mean the real data are required in any case to identify potential targets first.

 

[hope]

The question makes no sense at all. Of course they would need the real data first to know whom to address at all. What's the point of making up something against a random person?

So then, you are saying they will not target random people. Okay, good to know.





And ElHorsto, thank-you for re-posting the question you began yesterday then deleted, settling instead to give me a negative response. I would have preferred if you had given me the chance to reply, as you have done to-day...no matter
On the up side, peitho, to whom the question was asked, had no trouble in understanding it and, replied well with a full answer.

 

[ElHorsto]

So then, you are saying they will not target random people. Okay, good to know.

And ElHorsto, thank-you for re-posting the question you began yesterday then deleted, settling instead to give me a negative response. I would have preferred if you had given me the chance to reply, as you have done to-day...no matter
On the up side, peitho, to whom the question was asked, had no trouble in understanding it and, replied well with a full answer.

I apologize, I had a hard time to find a meaningful reply until I finally gave up because I thought your question was not serious. I really didn't know how to answer and got frustrated, therefore my negative reply. I'll try to be more careful in future.

 

[LeBrok]

Yes, but I mean the real data are required in any case to identify potential targets first.

It is very useful, but not required. What real data was required for Khmer Rouge to kill a million people? It was enough if you happened to live in a village marked for extermination.
Josef Stalin has sent best generals and polit bureau members to gulags just because they held offices for too long, long enough to potentially plan something against him. Again no real data required just despotic leaders with neurotic personality.
Should we mention N Korea where internet doesn't exist, or any computer data collection, and yet as much as 10% citizens are locked in labour camps.

These are real life examples showing that data collection is not required for any tyrant to persecute or kill.

Have a good government and data is used for our protection. Have a bad one and nobody is safe, or data even needed.

 

[LeBrok]

So, nobody here is to congratulate FBI on saving underage girls from prostitution? And yes, they were collecting data from pimp's websites.
I guess, the real life example wasn't as exciting as protecting us all from hypothetical dictatorship in the future.

 

[Yetos]

So, nobody here is to congratulate FBI on saving underage girls from prostitution? And yes, they were collecting data from pimp's websites.
I guess, the real life example wasn't as exciting as protecting us all from hypothetical dictatorship in the future.

one out of many?

besides protectors are paid to protect,
and to protect our rights also.


simply you are not convicing.

 

[LeBrok]

one out of many?

besides protectors are paid to protect,
and to protect our rights also.


simply you are not convicing.

Can't you say thank you for a good job? I guess it has to be greek culture.

 

[peitho]

Can't you say thank you for a good job? I guess it has to be greek culture.

That statement is insulting, lacks any argumentation and one could see racism in it.
Please say thank you to them for breaking your most fundamental rights. Oh sorry i forgot, you dont see any broken rights. Saying thanks to the FBI Action is hard if they used obtained data which they get through breaking laws.
Saying thank you to them is like saying thank you for a guy that got imprisoned because of a confession through torture. But his torture doesnt even break your rights.

And you guys overseas are also OK with torture i guess. AS you are OK with the intentional kill of Bin Laden, which was not only against human right and international right, but it would also be murder in the US itself.

And you ment, there are less wars now? Is that a joke? In 2011 there were the most wars at once since 1945 just Google it.

 

[hope]

So, nobody here is to congratulate FBI on saving underage girls from prostitution? And yes, they were collecting data from pimp's websites.
I guess, the real life example wasn't as exciting as protecting us all from hypothetical dictatorship in the future.

Yes, I`ll say well done and good result. I only read this properly last night or I could have felt pleased for these young girls much sooner.
I50 people who preyed upon young girls and used them in the way they did, are now arrested and 105 girls [ some very young indeed] released from the grasp of the manipulating people, who have made money through underage sex ...I can`t help but see the positive in that.
I also say well done to the earlier work, that now brings the total of young people rescued from similar positions over the past ten years ,to 2,200.

 

[LeBrok]

That statement is insulting

Yes I shouldn't have said that, sorry Yetos.

one could see racism in it.

Really? Do Greeks seem to you, as German, as different race?

Please say thank you to them for breaking your most fundamental rights. Oh sorry i forgot, you dont see any broken rights. Saying thanks to the FBI Action is hard if they used obtained data which they get through breaking laws.

Wow, you already convicted FBI without a proof that they broke any laws in this case. Case of freeing underage girls from slavery. Gods save us from future lawyers and lawmakers like you.

Saying thank you to them is like saying thank you for a guy that got imprisoned because of a confession through torture. But his torture doesnt even break your rights.
And you guys overseas are also OK with torture i guess. AS you are OK with the intentional kill of Bin Laden, which was not only against human right and international right, but it would also be murder in the US itself.

Are we changing subject from data mining to world morality?
How did your occupy movement went to save the immoral world? I'll give your initiative same chance of succeeding, sadly.

And you ment, there are less wars now? Is that a joke? In 2011 there were the most wars at once since 1945 just Google it.

you must have your own special definition of war. Let's quantify it a little bit. Do you have statistics showing deaths from conflicts or number of dictators/regimes per year.

And honestly, get off your young and idealistic horse and smell the real life, which by any standards is not black and white.
You sound like you had easy life in your parents house, never worked or paid taxes, and knows life only from TV and few socialistic teachers. The life experience of almost 20 year old.

http://filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/...-war-conflict/statistics-on-violent-conflict/

And keep in mind that number of people is growing every year, therefore probability of more people dying in wars is bigger than before. And in spite of it, number of deaths from conflicts and number of conflicts dropping down.

 

[Templar]

And in spite of it, number of deaths from conflicts and number of conflicts dropping down.

What do you think is the reason/cause of this? I am guessing it is due to greater inter-connectivity between countries. If your country heavily invests in another country you are less likely to want to bomb the hell out of it. But I guess greater democratization and income increases also played a role.