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Thread: Estimating Germanic Y-DNA in Iberia

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    R1a, presumably, owing to the fact that Slavs descend from Balto-Slavs, and Balts have high R1a but low I2a1b. It's possible that the Slavic ethnogenesis postdates the blending of R1a-carrying Balto-Slavs and some unknown I2a1b population, or that Balto-Slavs carried I2a1b earlier than that and I2a1b expanded within the subset of their population that became Slavs. Of course, we don't have ancient samples to confirm any of this yet.
    correct me if I am wrong, but did'nt KenN state recently that the "east prussians" where I2a1.
    He was referring to iron-age east-prussians..................mostly likely aestii and venedi, galidians also
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    correct me if I am wrong, but did'nt KenN state recently that the "east prussians" where I2a1.
    He was referring to iron-age east-prussians..................mostly likely aestii and venedi, galidians also
    Who is KenN and based on what did he state East Prussians were I2a1? I don't disagree, because I have no data to agree/disagree, just curious, because there is very little I2a1 in Lithuanians or Latvians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Who is KenN and based on what did he state East Prussians were I2a1? I don't disagree, because I have no data to agree/disagree, just curious, because there is very little I2a1 in Lithuanians or Latvians.
    I was in error , Ken meant I1 was latvian (perhaps) from east prussia

    From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <[email protected]>

    Overnight two more members of CTS6364+ L22- showed up in FTDNA reports.
    This is a gateway branch to the robust L22+ sector of the tree, as L22+
    seems to be all CTS6364+
    The two new 67 marker haplotype members have Polish surnames. There is an
    eastern German surname which I am close to sure will test positive for this
    haplogroup. This reinforces my hunch that the origins of I1 some 4500 years
    ago will be more to the east than earlier expectations --- maybe Prussia or
    Pomerania.

    But by Prussia I mean the geographical heartland of the peoples once called
    Prussians, not the political empire that the Prussians built up among the
    German peoples in historic times.

    There was even originally a language of the Prussians
    I believe, not part of the standard Germanic or Slavic language group,
    although part of the Indo-European language group. Perhaps related to
    Latvian?

    The Old Prussian language is extinct like all other closely related
    Western Baltic languages (Curonian, Galindian and Sudovian) - Lithuanian
    and Latvian are surviving Eastern Baltic languages, to which Old
    Prussian was more distantly related

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    Like I said, can't comment much. I have neither knowledge on I1 tree, nor its age estimates. 4,500 years ago some I1 tribe from Prussian whereabouts manages to survive and enter general IE world. Why not?
    Modern Balts however have very little of any I. On other hand Lithuanians are outliers (as being among tallest populations wihout I haplo), which might mean that I folk haplos got replaced by R1A/N1C1 mix at some point(s).

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    Germanic haplotypes in North of Portugal particularly around Porto must be close to 20 percent or even more. Braga itself accounts for I not specified haplogroup of about 18%. The suebi who invaded north of Portugal were about 40000. Plus the Viking input in Povoa de Varzim. Those estimations about N Portugal are wrong.

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    Germanic haplotypes in North of Portugal particularly around Porto must be close to 20 percent or even more. Braga itself accounts for I not specified haplogroup of about 18%. The suebi who invaded north of Portugal were about 40000. Plus the Viking input in Povoa de Varzim. Those estimations about N Portugal are wrong.

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    Germanic haplotypes in North of Portugal particularly around Porto must be close to 20 percent or even more. Braga itself accounts for I not specified haplogroup of about 18%. The suebi who invaded north of Portugal were about 40000. Plus the Viking input in Povoa de Varzim. Those estimations about N Portugal are wrong.s

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    Well maybe a little underestimation but you have to remember that north portugal is not just braga and porto it also includes tras-os montes which is probably much less germanic, for example even the buri contingent that separated from the suebi stayed in amares and terras de bouro (lands of the buri) though probably their center was in aplace where it is nowadays amares, the villages of Bouro or Buri. In conclusion the numbers maciamo gave are not necessarily wrong but the samples were simply not taken in areas that were as much affected by the germanic migrations as in braga and porto. For example in beleza et al there is much probably an overestimation on the germanic samples because they were only taken in areas largely affected by both the suebi, the vandals( the ones who stayed with the suebi and those who ran from north africa), some visigoths due to the reconquista and even the most underestimated the vikings who founded a fishing community in a somewhat large lenght of coast, vikings who are most times forgotten and their lineages just taken as part of the suebi and others contingent.

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    These estimations must be wrong about the I. Please check my comment in you thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Spain and Portugal are fairly well studied countries for Y-chromosomal lineages. Unfortunately no study so far has tested for the Germanic S21/U106 subclade of R1b, and few papers even distinguish subclades of I (those who did only tested for I2a1a-M26).

    I have analysed the raw data from Adams et al. (2008) and attempted to identify by myself the subclades of I as well as R1b-S21 by looking for the DYS390=23 values. About 80% of R1b-S21 has the value 23 at DYS390, which corresponds generally to the Frisian L48 subclade (close to 100% of which have DYS390=23). It's not a perfectly reliable method since DYS390=23 is also found at low frequency among some other R1b subclades - although I have excluded those found among the M153 and SRY2627 subclades.

    Consequently it is important to compare the frequencies for haplogroups I1 and I2b1 with those of DYS390=23 so as to get a reasonable idea of the impact of Germanic peoples (Visigoths, Suebi, Vandals, Franks) on the Iberian gene pool.

    Here is the data.


    Aragon (n=34)

    I1 = 2 (6%)
    I2b1 = 1 (3%)
    R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 5 (14.7%)

    Asturias (n=20)

    I1 = 1 (5%)
    I2b1 = 0 (0%)
    R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 2 (10%)


    Basque Country (n=116)

    I1 = 1 (0.85%)
    I2b1 = 0 (0%)
    R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 14 (12%)


    Catalonia (n=80)

    I1 = 0 (0%)
    I2b1 = 0 (0%)
    R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 5 (6.25%)


    Castilla La Mancha (n=63)

    I1 = 0 (0%)
    I2b1 = 0 (0%)
    R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 9 (14.2%)


    East Andalusia (n=95)

    I1 = 0 (0%)
    I2b1 = 1 (1%)
    R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 8 (8%)


    Extremadura (n=52)

    I1 = 3 (6%)
    I2b1 = 1 (2%)
    R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 4 (8%)


    Galicia (n=88)

    I1 = 4 (4.5%)
    I2b1 = 2 (2.2%)
    R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 8 (9%)


    Northeast Castille (n=31)

    I1 = 0 (0%)
    I2b1 = 0 (0%)
    R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 3 (9.6%)


    North Portugal (n=60)

    I1 = 0 (0%)
    I2b1 = 1 (1.6%)
    R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 5 (8.3%)


    Northwest Castille (n=100)

    I1 = 0 (0%)
    I2b1 = 1 (1%)
    R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 8 (8%)


    South Portugal (n=78)

    I1 = 0 (0%)
    I2b1 = 0 (0%)
    R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 5 (6.4%)


    Valencia (n=73)

    I1 = 3 (4.1%)
    I2b1 = 1 (1.3%)
    R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 7 (9.5%)


    West Andalusia (n=73)

    I1 = 0 (0%)
    I2b1 = 1 (1.3%)
    R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 7 (9.6%)


    Ibiza (n=54)

    I1 = 0 (0%)
    I2b1 = 0 (0%)
    R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 5 (9.2%)


    Majorca (n=62)

    I1 = 3 (4.8%)
    I2b1 = 0 (0%)
    R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 6 (9.6%)


    Minorca (n=37)

    I1 = 0 (0%)
    I2b1 = 0 (0%)
    R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 4 (10.8%)


    The frequency of R1b with DYS390=23 is surprisingly homogeneous all over Iberia, oscillating around 8% and 10% of the male population. Only South Portugal and Catalonia have less than 8%. Three regions exceed 10%: Aragon (14.7%), Castilla La Mancha (14.2%) and the Basque country (12%).

    The Basques, however, have less than 1% of I1 and no I2b1 or R1a at all (this was confirmed by other, larger studies on the Basques), an almost undeniable proof that they have close to no Germanic ancestry, if proof was needed. The Basque DNA Project at FTDNA does not have a single R1b-U106 among members who tested for deep clades, and the U106 Project also lacks any member in or near the Basque country. The high percentage of DYS390=23 can therefore be considered to be due exclusively to the extremely high percentage of R1b (85%) among the Basques. If there is 12% of DYS390=23 among the 85% of Basques R1b and none of it is S21, that would give a ratio of 14% of non-Germanic R1b in Iberia that would misleadingly show up as DYS390=23. If I take an average of 9% of DYS390=23 for Iberia and 65% of R1b, we get about the same ratio of 14%. So it is well possible that very little DYS390=23 in Iberia corresponds to actual R1b-S21. Overall I think it is safe to consider that the percentage of R1b-S21 should always be a bit lower than I1.

    My analysis of Germanic Y-DNA in Italy has assessed that the Lombards and Vandals at least, who both originated in southern Sweden, carried around 40% of I1, 30% of R1b, 25% of R1a and 5% of I2b1, not unlike modern Swedes. The Vandals probably didn't have much impact on the Iberian population. It is especially the Suebi who left a clear genetic print around Galicia, Portugal and Extremadura. Based on all the Y-DNA studies on Iberia (and not just Adams et al.) the peak of I1 in Iberia is to be found in Extremadura (3.5%) and Galicia (3%), while I2b peaks in Portugal at 3% (although that could include some Celtic I2b2). The Old Castile, founded by the Visigoths, has precious little I1 or I2b1 - one of the blanks on the map of Iberia along with Andalusia and Murcia.

    There have been plenty of discussions on the reasons why the former Suebi kingdom had so much Germanic Y-DNA compared to the former Visigothic kingdom. Of all the Germanic peoples from the migration period the genetic impact of Visigoths is the most elusive. I believe that the reason is that the Goths stayed for many centuries in Eastern Europe and nearly two more centuries in the Balkans before invading Italy and Iberia and could have assimilated a lot of non-Germanic people, notably R1a and I2a1b Slavs and predominantly E1b1b, I2a1b and J2 Balkanic people. It would be pretty complicated at the moment to untangle the Balkanic E1b1b and J2 from all the others (Neolithic, Phoenician, Greek, Roman, Jewish, Arabic) found in Iberia. But it is remarkably easy to check the Eastern European I2a1b (M423). It is all the I2a that is not M26. And I cannot reasonably imagine who could have brought it in any number to Iberia besides the Eastern European populations assimilated by the Goths. The I2a Project at FTDNA has three M423-Dinaric-N and one M423-Isles-B2 from Spain.

    It's a pity that no study looks at the subclades of R1a in Iberia, and that no member at the House of Spain DNA Project deemed necessary to test for deep clades. The Phoenicians and Jews could have brought some R1a-Z93 to the Mediterranean coast. Apart from that, all the R1a in Spain should have come with the Germanic migrations. It would be interesting to see how much of it is truly Germanic (L664, Z284) and how much is Slavic. By doing the same for Italy, and combining the figures with the percentage of I2a1b (M423), we could get a fairly accurate imagine of how Slavicised the Goths had become before invading the Roman Empire. It's probably no coincidence that the highest concentrations of R1a in Iberia, aside from the Mediterranean coast, are found in northern Castile, Asturias and Cantabria, the core of the old Visigothic kingdom before the Reconquista. The R1a in Cantabria is accompanied by typically East European mtDNA haplogroups like T1, T3, T5, U2, U3, U4 and U5b.
    Maciamo, you are wrong aboutnorthern Portugal. The region was barely studied. You write the Germanic I1 iszero, knowing that 40000 suebi settled around Porto and Braga. The culturalimpact of the Vikings and suebi tribes in northern Portugal is huge. Bragaaccounts for 18% of I not specified haplogroup. Some Portuguese from Povoa looklike Norwegians. You may know a lot about European history but not about myregion. People are always underestimating the impact of the Germanic tribessince this is a southern European region. England before the invasion of theanglo-saxons was so Germanic as northernPortugal before the invasion of thesuebi. But in your works you point out heavily the Germanic influence ofdifferent regions in England and you do not do the same for Portugal. I wouldappreciate an answer of yours. Please check my comments in the thread suebiinput in Northern Portugal and Galiza.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Gomes View Post
    ...England before the invasion of theanglo-saxons was so Germanic as northernPortugal before the invasion of thesuebi....
    Do you have any evidence of England being Germanic before the Anglo-Saxon invasion?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    You cant read. Before the suebi N of Portugal was not Germanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Gomes View Post
    You cant read. Before the suebi N of Portugal was not Germanic.
    I can't read either, please do tell why the Romano-Britians should be called Germanic instead of Celtic. Roberts quote of reference seems pretty legit I'm afraid.

    As for Northern Portugal, I agree that there was not Germanic dominance in the area before the Suebi
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigothic_Kingdom

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    As for Northern Portugal, I agree that there was not Germanic dominance in the area before the Suebi.
    So the same happens with England before the anglo-Saxons right? Understood?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Gomes View Post
    As for Northern Portugal, I agree that there was not Germanic dominance in the area before the Suebi.
    So the same happens with England before the anglo-Saxons right? Understood?
    In a way, England was invaded before the Anglo-Saxons, but not by Germanic tribes but by the Romans and they called The Brythoic tribes of England & Wales Brittania (43-410 AD). In 410 the Romanized-Britians were left to their own devises and were soon invaded by Anglo-Saxons

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Britain

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    It is the last comment I may post on this forum. Are you playing dumb?
    or are u really dumb. Cant u understand thet I wrote that Britain
    was so germanic as Portugal because N Portugal was
    not germanic before the invasion of the suebi as England was NOT BEFORE
    THE INVASION OF THE ANGLO-SAXONS!!!! MAKES SENSE NOW????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Gomes View Post
    It is the last comment I may post on this forum. Are you playing dumb?
    or are u really dumb. Cant u understand thet I wrote that Britain
    was so germanic as Portugal because N Portugal was
    not germanic before the invasion of the suebi as England was NOT BEFORE
    THE INVASION OF THE ANGLO-SAXONS!!!! MAKES SENSE NOW????
    Pedro, even if you are not as Viking genetically doesn't make you any less Portuguese or Norseman at heart. Our Ancient Ancestors used to intermarry with each other frequently after an invasion, people assimilated and even changed allegiances to preserve their reputation.

    It may be true that I'm dumb but I know this. Like archaeology as well as DNA, we are growing in our understanding of the ancient world. However with archaeology and DNA, we don't have a time machine to examine the culture nor collect DNA samples. Instead, we have to discover clue and read the history in order to solve our questions; just like what a detective would do. :)

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It is not the question that I want to be a Viking or Germanic. Simply Porto and Braga, have always been heavily Germanic, as history accounts report,culture and the high incidence of haplogroups of Germanic origin as 18% of I in Braga as well as other germanic sublcades of R1b.
    The problem lies with the fact people dont want to admitt, these two
    cities are genetically more germanic than most of central Europe. There is
    further an input from the vikings in the area in Povoa de Varzim.
    There Peolple look as norwegians, the traditional dress is like
    in the coast of Norway and the boats design was influenced by vikings
    long boats. You can check it on wikipedia if u like it.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    I have no idea if the people in that particular little village are unusually fair as I don't remember ever going there.

    I can tell you, however, that there's a very large community of Portuguese=Americans near me, virtually all of whom are from Braga and Porto, whom I happen to know quite well because more than a few of them have worked for me, including a young woman whom I hired "fresh off the boat", as it were. :) We became quite close to her, and through her to the community. My son was ring bearer at her wedding, and I've been to many, many affairs at the Portuguese Community Center. (great food by the way)

    They're very honest, hard-working people who are faring quite well here. They are not by any stretch of the imagination Norwegian looking, however. In fact, they're quite the shortest, darkest Europeans I've ever met. Nor is there anything wrong with that in my book, for what it's worth, but it's the reality.

    I've also recently been hosted at the second home she's bought in the Porto area, and while there's certainly a few fairer types in the area it is by no means some Norwegian outpost in terms of phenotype.

    In terms of the frequency of certain yDna lineages, the studies are the studies. That's all we have. Someone's feeling that the number must be higher doesn't have any probative value.

    You also seem to be unaware that the y lineage can be extremely uninformative as far as autosomal make-up (and phenotype) is concerned. An elite migration of men can spread their y chromosome around, and it can drift to high frequency in some villages or towns, but in less than two hundred years there could no longer be any autosomal material left in their descendants.


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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I dont know where have you been or who do you know from my region.
    Telling we are short and dark is completly wrong. I am over 5´11 foot
    and blue eyed. Most of my friends are about or above that height. I had ´
    friends from Povoa de Varzim who were 6´3, and some were ash-blond haired.
    Of course extreme light pigmentation and nordic feautures dont apply to
    most of the country. But as I wrote I am only concerned about the real
    inhabitants from Porto and Braga. Lots of people from other regions
    of Portugal migrated to these areas, rural exodus weird? You talk about
    an elite group, being 40000 suebi? Just a minor impact on the gene pool?
    Most of the names and traditions of certain areas are nothern european because of what?
    I haplogroup at 18 % in the area. You know what about my region? Nothing. Than you
    come making assumptions about the history of my country just beacause you dont
    want to admit our germanic origin. That is shameful.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Perhaps you could invite your local friends and relatives to take part in DNA testing. The more DNA test we get, the more accurate the results. I recommend going to a DNA testing company to test for adna instead of relying on ydna alone.
    I still remember the day when we Englishmen used to think we were either 100% roman or 100% Saxon, but DNA has proved otherwise.

  22. #47
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    That is something I would like to do.I think the studies have already proven that the germanic component is significant. I only hate people like Angela who have some kind of inferior complex and reffuse to accept reality as it is. Coming on forum saying " I saw very dark portugueses so you cannot be germanic" which is a very scientific approach to the subject.

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Gomes View Post
    That is something I would like to do.I think the studies have already proven that the germanic component is significant. I only hate people like Angela who have some kind of inferior complex and reffuse to accept reality as it is. Coming on forum saying " I saw very dark portugueses so you cannot be germanic" which is a very scientific approach to the subject.
    My dear Pedro, you are the one who raised the issue of phenotype when you claimed that the people of Porto and Braga are very "Norwegian" looking. I have seen scores of them both here and in Portugal and that's absolute rubbish. If you didn't want to discuss it, why did you bring it up?

    You must also be confusing me with someone else. I have absolutely no interest in "being" Germanic, or "looking" Germanic. Given the history of my particular region and my family during the war that would be a sign of a rather severe mental disorder. Plus, I was raised by an Italian nationalist of the old school; for him, even the Celts/Gauls were barbarians whom he was sure we had sent packing. I have accepted the findings of population genetics to the contrary with as good a grace as I can muster. :)* As for the Germanic invasions, they destroyed our empire. I would celebrate it...why?

    As for "science", you have been presented with the "science" in the form of yDna studies, which aren't even determinative in terms of autosomal composition anyway, which you don't seem to understand. You refuse to accept these yDna studies because they don't support your chosen narrative. The fact is that you have no data whatsoever to support you contention. So, precisely who is being un-scientific here?

    Ed.
    *That was a joke, Pedro, in case you couldn't tell. I'm quite content to accept all my ancestors. Neither do I hold grudges over what happened two thousand years ago.
    Last edited by Angela; 26-10-15 at 18:23. Reason: my obsession with typos :)

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    First of all Povoa de Varzin is a town, not a little village(why say a little village because it suits
    you?) Second genetic studies on northern Portugal prove we are mostly
    descending from the celts(r1b3 ever heard?) Third the region I am talking about
    displays 18% of I haplogroup being the historical spot where the suebi
    and the viking chose to settle. The average height of northern portuguese
    youngesters is 5´10 or 178 cm, not short. Italians by the way in south
    look like middle eastenaers as their y-dna proves. Start to search
    wikipedia about Povoa de varzim and the suebi in Northern Portugal. since
    that may be the only thing you can read. I dont know what kind of
    portugueses you know, they may be from south or you mistake their identities
    or they are not really from norhten Portugal. Since you visit northern
    Portugal I would advise to pay attention to how people look particularly
    in the villages. Apologize to me should be polite by the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Gomes View Post
    First of all Povoa de Varzin is a town, not a little village(why say a little village because it suits
    you?) Second genetic studies on northern Portugal prove we are mostly
    descending from the celts(r1b3 ever heard?) Third the region I am talking about
    displays 18% of I haplogroup being the historical spot where the suebi
    and the viking chose to settle. The average height of northern portuguese
    youngesters is 5´10 or 178 cm, not short. Italians by the way in south
    look like middle eastenaers as their y-dna proves. Start to search
    wikipedia about Povoa de varzim and the suebi in Northern Portugal. since
    that may be the only thing you can read. I dont know what kind of
    portugueses you know, they may be from south or you mistake their identities
    or they are not really from norhten Portugal. Since you visit northern
    Portugal I would advise to pay attention to how people look particularly
    in the villages. Apologize to me should be polite by the way.
    Apologize for what? For pointing out the obvious? The published y Dna data doesn't support your position. Therefore, there is no scientific support for your position. End of that story.

    No autosomal analysis of these people has been done to my knowledge, but there's certainly been autosomal analyses by the score of Iberians. They are not "Germanic", to put it mildly. Nor do they cluster anywhere near the Irish or the British on any PCA I've ever seen. According to the Ralph and Coop IBD analysis, there's virtually no autosomal impact of the Germanic invasions in Iberia.

    Next...I begin to suspect you've never even been to Porto and Braga. If you had, there's no way you could be saying these things. I also repeat: you are the one who brought up phenotypes. I don't know why you're unhappy about the phenotypes of the majority of the people of Porto and Braga, but that isn't my problem. I'm more than happy with the looks, the personality, and the make-up of my own.

    If you find some dna results that support your claim that the people of Porto and Braga not only have yDna but autosomal results that prove that they are very "Germanic" in make-up let me know. Otherwise, I'm not interested.

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